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Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2013.11.20 11:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
As predicted, tested on Sisi, moaned about as you can imagine, and generally well understood. Heres what happens when you homogenise a ship class.
Whats wrong with homogenisation? Why cant my Vagabond have 800 dps like my Ishtar? What is it that minmatar seem to have more or less the worst ships across the board - forgiving a few exceptions - I'll take them, thats fine, there are exceptions across all races - so perhaps thats the name of the game now.
Back to Vargur. Paper DPS 750 (guns only, 4x RF Gyros - its god awful)
I warp in, and then jump to 100 or so. Rats spawn. Crap, loads are 120 off. I cant lock - bugger - need to fit a sensor booster. Way to go CCP - FFS did they even think.
I start on frigates - pop, pop, miss, miss, and take a nap while you wait for that overdps to fire again ... umm ... ummm - how much wasted DPS? Of course, its ALL FALLOFF - at the farthest end. 200 dps if you are "lucky". I can switch ammo, but oh no! DPS is even worse and it takes a week to switch, lets jump again. This time an angle to get to 70k. Rats close fast, but I'm up to maybe 500 dps. And lets jump again ... ad infinitum.
What a mess. I used to love the Vargur in PVE, nice and simple AB in, dps goes up fast, small rats die fast, large rats evaporate. Now its (yes - repeating from F&I) a Maelstom in its close range setup.
Bastion is pointless as YOU CANT BURN TOWARDS your targets to increase DPS. MJD is pointless because you cant get to them at a decent range at any time. Fit an AB and MJD ... and have a supergimped tank or weakend damage application, bastion doesn't work for the closein missioner - the rats either drift away or pull tight orbits while you are stuck.
Oddly, its a Maelstrom in its long range setup too. And what is the point of all that tank when range is your tank, when you cant use it with decent applied dps?
Did anyone else see this coming? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
804
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Obviously. That is why I sold mine. The only marauder I liked with bastion is the paladin.
Vargur needs the bastion to be corrected and give 2 times the falloff bonus it gives to range. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
76
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
While I think that Paladin and Kronos are far superior to other two marauders after changes, why exactly you use autocannons if you MJD 100km away? You do realize it's a short range weapon system? With exception of Scorch, other marauders would also suck at those ranges with their short range weaponry.
Use your 100% increase in tank and stay close to rats. |
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jack Mayhem wrote:While I think that Paladin and Kronos are far superior to other two marauders after changes, why exactly you use autocannons if you MJD 100km away? You do realize it's a short range weapon system? With exception of Scorch, other marauders would also suck at those ranges with their short range weaponry.
Use your 100% increase in tank and stay close to rats.
Doh. My 100% increase in tank comes at the expense of NOT BEING ABLE TO MOVE.
Have you tried it yet?
You cannot MJD to 0 on every rat, or any range you choose as they dont all sit in a ball, or sit still.
You can MJD away and let them close. Of course, as noted, it then sucks for applied DPS in a vargur. |
Desudes
The Scope Gallente Federation
63
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
How about staying close range when using close range weapons ?
95% of mission rats stay within 50km Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
Icarus Able
Traverse Holdings Setting The Universe on Fire
174
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
You realise you can just use it like you used to right?They didnt really take away much just added stuff. Noone forcing you to use the MJD. |
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Desudes wrote:How about staying close range when using close range weapons ?
95% of mission rats stay within 50km
Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it.
So please read above. My optimal on Autos is 4k, my falloff is 60k. I use Bastion and have to sit still while those rats move to 50k. Work it out FFS. I fit an AB and have a much slower ship. I get NO benefit from bastion in an autocannon setup.
With artillery - dps application is stupidly low, stupidly slow, mostly missing or overhitting (the 100% to gun exacerbates the problem).
The Paladin and Golem work as their optimals are great on long range. 3 Kronos sold by corpmates and now 2 Vargurs gone. Mine going.
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Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
204
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
If you liked it before, why not fly it the same way as before Rubicon? If you ignore Bastion, you get more EHP than before, but slightly less tank due to the weaker cap. You're a bit slower, but let's face it... you're at BS speed, which is bad any way you slice it. And both lock range and scan res are better than before... the latter significantly. Plus you get the MJD bonus, which means you can pretty much end up anywhere you want to on the field in a little over a minute.
Don't scoff at Bastion, though. I pulled Serpentis Assault as my first mission last night... it is SO nice to be able to set up and completely ignore damps. That was a hell of a fun mission. Profitable, too. |
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
60
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
You don't have to use MJD. Like the guy above said you can stick to auto cannons and bastion up taking advantage of that massive rep bonus. |
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
Icarus Able wrote:You realise you can just use it like you used to right?They didnt really take away much just added stuff. Noone forcing you to use the MJD.
Yup - slower ship makes for slower DPS application. Roll on the next update where they introduce the Bastion II module, when fitted it gimps your speed and gives you more optimal.
Vargur got nerfed. You said it. |
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Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
204
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it. Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros. |
Kasutra
Tailor Company
229
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Quish McQuiddy wrote:What a mess. I used to love the Vargur in PVE, nice and simple AB in, dps goes up fast, small rats die fast, large rats evaporate.
And this is not possible any more... why?
Did the -20 m/s base speed sink the battleship? That extra PG getting in your way?
Just sell your Bastion and keep lovin' the Vargur the same way you always have... |
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
60
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Also if you are worried about overhitting with artillery; you can ungroup your turrets. I don't know your fit but I get the feeling you have a 2-4 slot tank and you can get away with a 1-2 slot tank now. The new empty slots can get tracking comps/enha/etc. |
Jack Mayhem
Kaer Industries
76
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Posted - 2013.11.20 12:42:00 -
[14] - Quote
Just ignore the OP, he just wants to whine and no logical argument will stop him here. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
804
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jack Mayhem wrote:While I think that Paladin and Kronos are far superior to other two marauders after changes, why exactly you use autocannons if you MJD 100km away? You do realize it's a short range weapon system? With exception of Scorch, other marauders would also suck at those ranges with their short range weaponry.
Use your 100% increase in tank and stay close to rats.
The vargur tank could already shrug even the hardest level 4 mission. 100% extra means nothing. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
804
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 13:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kasutra wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:What a mess. I used to love the Vargur in PVE, nice and simple AB in, dps goes up fast, small rats die fast, large rats evaporate. And this is not possible any more... why? Did the -20 m/s base speed sink the battleship? That extra PG getting in your way? Just sell your Bastion and keep lovin' the Vargur the same way you always have...
old paladin had 18% more speed. THat is NOT irrelevant "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
804
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:04:00 -
[17] - Quote
Zor'katar wrote:Quish McQuiddy wrote:Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it. Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros.
NOPE. it does NOT!
VArgur only do full dps at point blank range!!! "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Quish McQuiddy
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kirkwood Ross wrote:Also if you are worried about overhitting with artillery; you can ungroup your turrets. I don't know your fit but I get the feeling you have a 2-4 slot tank and you can get away with a 1-2 slot tank now. The new empty slots can get tracking comps/enha/etc.
Ungroup 4 turrets to 8 - on a Vargur - please tell me how? |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
204
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Zor'katar wrote:Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros. NOPE. it does NOT! VArgur only do full dps at point blank range!!! It does, actually. Raw DPS for an AC Vargur is almost 1000. Graph it in Pyfa... it's still getting around 700 at 50k. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
322
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
> Use Autocannons > Load regular close range ammo > MJD 100k away
> complain that you don't apply damage at range anymore, ignore the TE nerf, blame everything on the hull.
Way to go!
@Vargur in Bastion: The Bastionmod is only necessary for challenging pve, like soloing c4/c5 anoms, running Instrumental cores (yes, pve with 2k+ incoming dps) It does not make any sense to fit a bastionmodule on a L4-marauder, putting aside the immunity to NPC-ewar. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=288823&find=unread - Looking for a handful of well-versed EU pilots. Especially interested in hyperactive dscanners. |
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
804
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
Zor'katar wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:The vargur tank could already shrug even the hardest level 4 mission. 100% extra means nothing. Sure it does. It means you can drop a tank mod or two for prop, TCs, SeBos, whatever. Kagura Nikon wrote:Zor'katar wrote:Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros. NOPE. it does NOT! VArgur only do full dps at point blank range!!! It does, actually. Raw DPS for an AC Vargur is almost 1000. Graph it in Pyfa... it's still getting around 700 at 50k.
With barrage, that is what you need to reach 90 km falloff (that would be needed to loose only 30% of dps at 50 km) the vargur then only does raw 700 dps with the guns.
Republic fleet amo for 800mm guns, 3 gyro T2 1 TC 1 TE. BAStion module And your falloff is 63 km!!!
That way you are doing roughly 550 dps at 50km. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
204
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:> Use Autocannons > Load regular close range ammo > MJD 100k away
> complain that you don't apply damage at range anymore, ignore the TE nerf, blame everything on the hull.
Way to go! To be fair, at 750dps with 4 faction Gyros, I'm pretty sure he's using Artillery.
Lloyd Roses wrote:@Vargur in Bastion: The Bastionmod is only necessary for challenging pve, like soloing c4/c5 anoms, running Instrumental cores (yes, pve with 2k+ incoming dps) It does not make any sense to fit a bastionmodule on a L4-marauder, putting aside the immunity to NPC-ewar. That's a pretty massive thing to put aside in some missions.
Bastion is plenty useful in L4s from the standpoint of freeing up slots formerly used for tank to put them to better use. I suppose if you were already running a 2-slot tank, though, then it would be pretty underwhelming. |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
204
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:29:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:With barrage, that is what you need to reach 90 km falloff (that would be needed to loose only 30% of dps at 50 km) the vargur then only does raw 700 dps with the guns. Barrage? Ew.
Kagura Nikon wrote:Republic fleet amo for 800mm guns, 3 gyro T2 1 TC 1 TE. BAStion module And your falloff is 63 km!!!
That way you are doing roughly 550 dps at 50km. Ok, now try 4 Gyro, 1 TE, 2 scripted TC, and a Burst Aerator rig, all T2. That's a bit more realistic, especially with the slots that are freed up by Bastion bonuses. |
Layla Firoue
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
A little bit of EFT warrioring gives me a Vargur T2 fit with ok tank and 109km fall off To me it only seems that the Paladin is the one fairly OP compared to the other 3, especially the Tachy Paladin.
Var Lulz
[High] 4x 800mm II 1x Bastion Module 2x whatever
[Mid] 2x Invul. Field II 1x Large Shieldbooster II 2x Tracking Computer II 1x MJD
[Lows] 3x Gyro II 2x Tracking Enhancer II
[Rigs] 1x Burst Aerator II 1x Ionic Field Projector II
759 DPS with Barage 9,6km optimum + 109 km fall off and not so bad tracking I might add! (For Barrage) 953 DPS RF EMP 4,8 km optimum + 73 km fall off 131 km lock range to boot! No implant shenanigans just perfect skills assumed.
Does not look too shabby so I don-¦t really see your problem OP. |
Cindy Marco
Expanse Security
133
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 13:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
Why would you try to shove mods on there just because there is a bonus too them?
If it doesn't help, don't use it. I don't use a MJD and won't be using a bastion module. They aren't really useful for level 4's.
But on the bright side, we picked up an extra high. Now I have 2 tractors and 2 salvagers going. |
Dato Koppla
Retribution Innovations
375
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 13:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Get a Mach. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3413
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 13:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Cindy Marco wrote:Why would you try to shove mods on there just because there is a bonus too them?
If it doesn't help, don't use it. I don't use a MJD and won't be using a bastion module. They aren't really useful for level 4's.
But on the bright side, we picked up an extra high. Now I have 2 tractors and 2 salvagers going.
Sounds good, but that actually requires thinking about things rather than trying to fly todays ship like yesterday's ship.
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Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
804
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zor'katar wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:With barrage, that is what you need to reach 90 km falloff (that would be needed to loose only 30% of dps at 50 km) the vargur then only does raw 700 dps with the guns. Barrage? Ew. Kagura Nikon wrote:Republic fleet amo for 800mm guns, 3 gyro T2 1 TC 1 TE. BAStion module And your falloff is 63 km!!!
That way you are doing roughly 550 dps at 50km. Ok, now try 4 Gyro, 1 TE, 2 scripted TC, and a Burst Aerator rig, all T2. That's a bit more realistic, especially with the slots that are freed up by Bastion bonuses.
Ever heard of stack penalties? Old vargiur piltos that knew what they were doign woudl not waste so much modules on useles stack nerfed attributes. They would put also stuff for speed.. to blitz faster .
Getting clsoer faster was way more efficient way of increasign dps than fighting a 4th level stack nerf for a tiny bit more falloff (remember bastion modules suffer stack nerf). "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
804
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 13:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Layla Firoue wrote:A little bit of EFT warrioring gives me a Vargur T2 fit with ok tank and 109km fall off To me it only seems that the Paladin is the one fairly OP compared to the other 3, especially the Tachy Paladin. Var Lulz [High] 4x 800mm II 1x Bastion Module 2x whatever [Mid] 2x Invul. Field II 1x Large Shieldbooster II 2x Tracking Computer II 1x MJD [Lows] 3x Gyro II 2x Tracking Enhancer II [Rigs] 1x Burst Aerator II 1x Ionic Field Projector II 759 DPS with Barage 9,6km optimum + 109 km fall off and not so bad tracking I might add! (For Barrage) 953 DPS RF EMP 4,8 km optimum + 73 km fall off 131 km lock range to boot! No implant shenanigans just perfect skills assumed. Does not look too shabby so I don-¦t really see your problem OP.
The problem is.. rail krnosnos, Golem and paladin are far better. FAR better...
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
MarvinOne
Zilog Enterprises
1
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Posted - 2013.11.20 13:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vargur and PvE L4 missioning:
Agreeing that the MJD is of no use to the Vargur.
Just got my Vargur after flying the mach for some time, and i really like the vargur :-)
Use a deadspace MWD to close in fast on NPC's, go for 3 TC's (scripted) 3 TC's tracking-speed scripted will almost track 0.15
range scripted a "little" pimped boat does ~900 dps @ ~40 km and ~550 DPS @75Km
Im using a noctis when making sense, so I put 2 x NOS in the the High-slots, just for convenience.
If u use a deadspace X-large booster + a DCII instead of TE in low, u never ever have to use Bastion except for "oh shiit is hitting the fan" |
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