While I think that Paladin and Kronos are far superior to other two marauders after changes, why exactly you use autocannons if you MJD 100km away? You do realize it's a short range weapon system? With exception of Scorch, other marauders would also suck at those ranges with their short range weaponry.

Use your 100% increase in tank and stay close to rats.

How about staying close range when using close range weapons ?

95% of mission rats stay within 50km

You realise you can just use it like you used to right?They didnt really take away much just added stuff. Noone forcing you to use the MJD.

Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it.

What a mess. I used to love the Vargur in PVE, nice and simple AB in, dps goes up fast, small rats die fast, large rats evaporate.

While I think that Paladin and Kronos are far superior to other two marauders after changes, why exactly you use autocannons if you MJD 100km away? You do realize it's a short range weapon system? With exception of Scorch, other marauders would also suck at those ranges with their short range weaponry.

Use your 100% increase in tank and stay close to rats.

And this is not possible any more... why?

Did the -20 m/s base speed sink the battleship? That extra PG getting in your way?

Just sell your Bastion and keep lovin' the Vargur the same way you always have...

Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros.

Also if you are worried about overhitting with artillery; you can ungroup your turrets. I don't know your fit but I get the feeling you have a 2-4 slot tank and you can get away with a 1-2 slot tank now. The new empty slots can get tracking comps/enha/etc.

NOPE. it does NOT!

VArgur only do full dps at point blank range!!!

Sure it does. It means you can drop a tank mod or two for prop, TCs, SeBos, whatever.


It does, actually. Raw DPS for an AC Vargur is almost 1000. Graph it in Pyfa... it's still getting around 700 at 50k.

> Use Autocannons
> Load regular close range ammo
> MJD 100k away

> complain that you don't apply damage at range anymore, ignore the TE nerf, blame everything on the hull.

Way to go!

@Vargur in Bastion: The Bastionmod is only necessary for challenging pve, like soloing c4/c5 anoms, running Instrumental cores (yes, pve with 2k+ incoming dps) It does not make any sense to fit a bastionmodule on a L4-marauder, putting aside the immunity to NPC-ewar.

With barrage, that is what you need to reach 90 km falloff (that would be needed to loose only 30% of dps at 50 km) the vargur then only does raw 700 dps with the guns.

Republic fleet amo for 800mm guns, 3 gyro T2 1 TC 1 TE. BAStion module And your falloff is 63 km!!!

That way you are doing roughly 550 dps at 50km.

Why would you try to shove mods on there just because there is a bonus too them?

If it doesn't help, don't use it. I don't use a MJD and won't be using a bastion module. They aren't really useful for level 4's.

But on the bright side, we picked up an extra high. Now I have 2 tractors and 2 salvagers going.

Barrage? Ew.


Ok, now try 4 Gyro, 1 TE, 2 scripted TC, and a Burst Aerator rig, all T2. That's a bit more realistic, especially with the slots that are freed up by Bastion bonuses.

A little bit of EFT warrioring gives me a Vargur T2 fit with ok tank and 109km fall off
To me it only seems that the Paladin is the one fairly OP compared to the other 3, especially the Tachy Paladin.

Var Lulz

[High]
4x 800mm II
1x Bastion Module
2x whatever

[Mid]
2x Invul. Field II
1x Large Shieldbooster II
2x Tracking Computer II
1x MJD

[Lows]
3x Gyro II
2x Tracking Enhancer II

[Rigs]
1x Burst Aerator II
1x Ionic Field Projector II

759 DPS with Barage 9,6km optimum + 109 km fall off and not so bad tracking I might add! (For Barrage)
953 DPS RF EMP 4,8 km optimum + 73 km fall off
131 km lock range to boot!
No implant shenanigans just perfect skills assumed.

Does not look too shabby so I don-¦t really see your problem OP.

Ever heard of stack penalties? Old vargiur piltos that knew what they were doign woudl not waste so much modules on useles stack nerfed attributes. They would put also stuff for speed.. to blitz faster .

Getting clsoer faster was way more efficient way of increasign dps than fighting a 4th level stack nerf for a tiny bit more falloff (remember bastion modules suffer stack nerf).

Hmm? A bastioned AC Vargur with a TE and two range-scripted TCs does ~700 dps at 50k, and that's with T2 gyros.

Just ignore the OP, he just wants to whine and no logical argument will stop him here.

the op sounds like one of those hur dur people in infomercials who seem to be mentally handicapped when trying to vacuum but when they get the new and improved vacuim they act like people with doctorates in vacuum cleaning.

only with the op its the other way around.

basically op has already made up his mind before he got the bastion vargur and is now puposefully flying and fitting it like a complete and utter wankstain to prove his 'point'.

I already tested it on sisi last few weeks and it has greatly improved mission income for me because I went in with an open mind.

Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it.

So please read above. My optimal on Autos is 4k, my falloff is 60k. I use Bastion and have to sit still while those rats move to 50k. Work it out FFS. I fit an AB and have a much slower ship. I get NO benefit from bastion in an autocannon setup.

With artillery - dps application is stupidly low, stupidly slow, mostly missing or overhitting (the 100% to gun exacerbates the problem).

The Paladin and Golem work as their optimals are great on long range. 3 Kronos sold by corpmates and now 2 Vargurs gone. Mine going.

You are doing it wrong. Drop the MJD and bastion, use the AB, a X-L, and cap injector. Put some cap implants in, use autocannons, and skill up the falloff/tracking skills to 5. Get within 55km of your targets - melt them with the correct ammo type. You are not doing 100dps at 50km, if you are, AB to them.

Get a Mach.

Yes - this was what I used before Rubicon, but using it now, I move slower. Quite a bit slower. I never change ammo on Autos - the DPS loss while waiting is terrible. I am burning to them or at an optimal between them to get better damage. 55k is a terrible range to shoot from with autos - but 45k is better, 35k is good, 25k is nicer still etc etc, at 15k its damn nice.

I cant make that distance at the speed I used to. To me it feels like a nerf because the short range boat that the Vargur was is gone - they have tried to make it a long range boat with Bastion/MJD but failed to take into account that the bonuses have little effect on artillery, and the double gun bonus on Marauders doesn't work well with artillery - its overdamage or underhit. With autos I didnt need more tank, or more falloff (more is nice, but when I can move in and apply it).

As many have noted for range - Paladin is much better, Golem is ok, Kronos is meh (drones gone) and Vargur just poorl.

In a way - those who say they like it are maybe the kind of people who do missions for isk and nothing else. I do them for light non PVP relief, a bit of isk and sec repair, I fly flew the vargur for the fun - anyone who used it had to fly it to apply their DPS, not sit still with missiles, sentries or poor tracking lasers.

Thats why its RIP for me.

Its an entire 110m/s slower, not a huge loss (half the time I just orbit the beacon or the outgate anyway). And with the exception of a handful of missions, you can load one type of ammo at the start and be done. I highly doubt most people are so 'on the ball' with keeping the guns busy as to worry about reload impacting DPS to change damage types. In exchange for a 11m/s loss and a slight TE nerf, you get a free high slot to better clear field with, and better fitting options. I'd say its an overall buff to the platform.

And if you think the paladin is all that, try running it versus anything but its racial enemy. No dmg selection hurts, and its drone bay does not leave many options. Plus, killing things outside 48km hurts the salvaging efforts. I just don't see the big loss. I am honestly very happy with the changes, if a bit bummed out that the bastion module suffers stacking penalties so that I can't reach out even further than before making its kinda pointless.

if you want to do real isk you do NOT salvage. You blitz. I only carry 1 salvager and 1 tractor to salvage 2-3 wrecks as a tiny extra. Will not loose any extra time because of loot and salvage. Sicne the mission loots was nerfed so muchits not worth

if you want to do real isk you do NOT salvage. You blitz. I only carry 1 salvager and 1 tractor to salvage 2-3 wrecks as a tiny extra. Will not loose any extra time because of loot and salvage. Sicne the mission loots was nerfed so muchits not worth

Folks... you're missing a module.

Forget about ABs. Forget about Micro Jump Drives.

ACs + MWD + Bastion = Success

The Vargur is amazing in Rubicon.

Folks... you're missing a module.

Forget about ABs. Forget about Micro Jump Drives.

ACs + MWD + Bastion = Success

The Vargur is amazing in Rubicon.

In a way - those who say they like it are maybe the kind of people who do missions for isk and nothing else. I do them for light non PVP relief, a bit of isk and sec repair, I fly flew the vargur for the fun - anyone who used it had to fly it to apply their DPS, not sit still with missiles, sentries or poor tracking lasers.

Thats why its RIP for me.

Ok, now try 4 Gyro, 1 TE, 2 scripted TC, and a Burst Aerator rig, all T2. That's a bit more realistic, especially with the slots that are freed up by Bastion bonuses.

Folks... you're missing a module. Forget about ABs. Forget about Micro Jump Drives. ACs + MWD + Bastion = Success The Vargur is amazing in Rubicon.

Also all those "RIP *insertrandomship/weapon here*" threads... If you dislike the changes and fail to adapt, cancel your subscription and play something else. They won't reverse the changes now, you had half a year time to cry on the Test-Server and the related F&I Forums. And since you didn't: Everyone else is happy. So shut your front door.

Edit:

They also didn't change the damage bonuses. So how can a Vargur be **** compared to the old one, when the main change it got is basically a massive increase in Tank and Range? You people need to use that thing between your ears sometimes. I think it is called brain.

EditEdit: Also nothing stops you from using pre-rubicon fits. Some Marauders lost their Web-Bonuses, but the fittings themselves generally still work the same. No one forces you to use Bastion.

only an idiot would complain about a 25% range buff coupled with a 150% tank increase. . .

The vargur now is just straight better than the vargur from monday; im not sure what youre complaining about.

That being said, the vargur does do the least DPS by about 10%, but you are forgetting that the vargur has selectable damage types and doesnt lose 1/4 of its DPS to defender missiles

Did, wont, its worse, and if you cant read above then dont contribute.

VARGUR

Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large projectile weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire
10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level

Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount
7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level


Slot layout: 8H(+1), 6M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 12900 PWG(+5000), 625 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8300(+700) / 7300(+500) / 6900 (-400)
Shield resists: 25% EM / 50% EX / 40% KIN / 30% THERM
Armor resists: 70% EM / 10% EX / 25% KIN / 43.125% THERM
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200(+575) / 1100s(+176.1s) / 5.6 cap/s (-0.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110 m/s(-20) / .112(-0.004) / 96520000(-9580000) / 14.99s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 81km(+6km) / 145(+60) / 10
Sensor strength: 11 Ladar
Signature radius: 360(-65)

So how exactly is it worse then?



As you see, NO damage/application bonus was changed. If your pre rubicon fit doesn't work exactly the way as before you are doing something wrong. horribly wrong. And point still stands: no one forces you to use MJDs and Bastion.

only an idiot would complain about a 25% range buff coupled with a 150% tank increase. . .

The vargur now is just straight better than the vargur from monday; im not sure what youre complaining about.

That being said, the vargur does do the least DPS by about 10%, but you are forgetting that the vargur has selectable damage types and doesnt lose 1/4 of its DPS to defender missiles

so hard to read?
Check DRONES -25

and check speed

-20 ms


And a ship does get worse ven when its not changed, as lon g as the other ships that comepte with it became better.

So...ummm, Macharial ------>

If 20MS means that much to you. We know Fozzie ******* hates matar, but it is what it is.

A typical carebear response. MOAR tank PLEASE - the rats are frightening.

A cruiser beats this beasts DPS - its overtanked undergunned.

Really? your cruiser can do 925 DPS at 4.5 + 66 km using no drones? Please tell me more about your mystery cruiser . . .

Typical moron response. Post first think never.

so hard to read?
Check DRONES -25

and check speed

-20 ms


And a ship does get worse ven when its not changed, as lon g as the other ships that comepte with it became better.

So...ummm, Macharial ------>

If 20MS means that much to you. We know Fozzie ******* hates matar, but it is what it is.

A cruiser beats this beasts DPS - its overtanked undergunned.

Edit: forum derp

Guess I might as well put something here, so I guess I'll just reiterate that if you were using a Vargur for mobility, you've been using the wrong tool for the job. And just because a change to a ship may have put a crimp in your playstyle, it doesn't render the ship useless.

When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple.

When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple.

When the vargur becomes the WORSE marauder it is a nerf. Its ismple.

So it gets better tank, better range enough grid to use arties.....

...but its a nerf because the others got buffed more? Can you be a little more emotional, because you certainly aren't making a very logical case.

Confirming that terrible pilots, flying ships badly will always whine.

That is all.

Reaffirms my belief that posts as useful as this are making eve a better place.

Yes - and on a vargur 50km is at the 100 dps range of autocannons. Try it.

So please read above. My optimal on Autos is 4k, my falloff is 60k. I use Bastion and have to sit still while those rats move to 50k. Work it out FFS. I fit an AB and have a much slower ship. I get NO benefit from bastion in an autocannon setup.

With artillery - dps application is stupidly low, stupidly slow, mostly missing or overhitting (the 100% to gun exacerbates the problem).

The Paladin and Golem work as their optimals are great on long range. 3 Kronos sold by corpmates and now 2 Vargurs gone. Mine going.

Perhaps the Vargur needs a revisit - ROF up - tracking gone? I dunno. Its just quite disappointing with the promise of Bastion?

...
To put it short: you're staring at an insanely good monkey wrench and asking why it isn't that great at hammering in nails.

The only time this monkey wrench is more effective compared to the old version is when it is hammering nails.

I couldn't disagree more. I shaved 10-15 minutes off my Dread Pirate Scarlet completion time by using MWD and Bastion compared to the week prior. That's a huge increase in effectiveness.

Now... could I have used the same MWD tactic prior to Rubicon? I guess. I thought of it for the Mach, but not the Varg before Tuesday.

But Bastion makes it easier, and frees up mid slots for more Tracking Computers by needing fewer tank modules. Not to mention that being E-war proof is a huge benefit in certain missions. (DPS in particular, if you get Pith Eliminator spawns.)

I dunno. I just cannot sympathize with disappointment over the changes.

I couldn't disagree more. I shaved 10-15 minutes off my Dread Pirate Scarlet completion time by using MWD and Bastion compared to the week prior. That's a huge increase in effectiveness.

Now... could I have used the same MWD tactic prior to Rubicon? I guess. I thought of it for the Mach, but not the Varg before Tuesday.

But Bastion makes it easier, and frees up mid slots for more Tracking Computers by needing fewer tank modules. Not to mention that being E-war proof is a huge benefit in certain missions. (DPS in particular, if you get Pith Eliminator spawns.)

I dunno. I just cannot sympathize with disappointment over the changes.

The reason why a lot of people are happy with the changes is that they changed their setups and their tactics too.

Or just switch to a Paladin after the Mach gets nerfed.

Wow - did you learn to read?

The reason why a lot of people are happy with the changes is that they changed their setups and their tactics too. I already had MWD, 2x TC, 1x TE, 4x gyro, Burst Aerator II fitted, and I hardly ever had issues with my tank or cap. There is not much to improve on this. Drop an invulnerability field for an MJD? That is practically nothing. I would rather have the speed back.

925 dps at 4.5 you numpty. at 66 it isnt.

Theres something missing between your ears.

at 50km (the farthest you should ever be from your target with the new MJD bonus), the vargur does 588 DPS; the only cruiser that can beat that is an ishtar and im not even sure that counts because of all the aggro sentry drones take now a days. And even then, the vargur does way more damage inside 30km, and it has fully selectable damage types; the sentry ishtar loses damage if it switches from thermal

again, morons . . . Post first think never

So make it 3 TCs and swap the TE for an Overdrive. On an AB, it's all of 4m/s slower than the pre-Rubicon Vargur. On an MWD it's actually marginally faster.

Many others here have given you the [their opinion] about how things works with the Vargur. And you just ignores it and thinks it's all fine to MJD 100 km away from the npcs with Autocannons and expect the Vargur to do high DPS.

If you want to hit the npc's with more higher DPS at 80-100 km, then fit Artilleries.

I took to EVE-HQ and some of my numbers showed I could get up to 24k dps tank (Yes I said 24,000). On a ship that does 1000dps in itGÇÖs sleep, the tactic should be simple warp to site, get aggro, kill everything, warp to next site.

I couldn't disagree more. I shaved 10-15 minutes off my Dread Pirate Scarlet completion time by using MWD and Bastion compared to the week prior. That's a huge increase in effectiveness.

Now... could I have used the same MWD tactic prior to Rubicon? I guess. I thought of it for the Mach, but not the Varg before Tuesday.

But Bastion makes it easier, and frees up mid slots for more Tracking Computers by needing fewer tank modules. Not to mention that being E-war proof is a huge benefit in certain missions. (DPS in particular, if you get Pith Eliminator spawns.)

I dunno. I just cannot sympathize with disappointment over the changes.

Ran some missions in the vargur yesterday and its absolutely amazing now, especially with the mobile tractor unit to help out.

I havent changed my rigs yet but I used to run 2 t2 ambits on it. atm it means I am hard capped at 72km falloff on my high damage ammo running 2 tracking comps with optimal scripts and bastion and 70km with 1. so I generally run one comp with tracking. I perma run a cheap pith ctype medium booster in case my connection ever drops with a single invul for tank. I usually have a mjd (quite usefull in a numbet of missions) and fit a mwd or ab with a overdrive in the low for other missions meaning I go FASTER than a pre rubicon vargur. thats right you bunch of sad sad little whiners, faster.

so yea atm there is not a singele valid reason to hate the vargur. it is better in every single way.

also it can solo c5 sites with t2 gear

Lawl, maybe I didn't read this correctly. Concerning missions, are you saying:
Your original fit that made x modules / rigs worthless due to stacking penalties and is better when you replace the worthless stuff with something else; therefore, Rubicon vargur is better?

not quite sure what you are saying here.

what I am saying however is that with bastion as a huge buff to tank and the increased pg and slots because of bastion I can now fit a wider veriety of modules that make the vargur superior to what it was in every single way.

Wow - like the name calling dont you. To present a rational argument you must be civil - or are you hiding behind the truth.

You want a 588 dps battleship for 1b. You want it to be slow and overtanked. You cant manage drone aggro. Selectable damage types? Give me the kinetic one and watch that DPS drop. Oh yeah - your a clueless prick , and aplogies to everyone else for the downgrade.

The ishtar is a good example of where BS in general are broken. It can field effective frigate defense and BS defense and everything in between.

If you can show me a perfect mission where you can MJD everywhere to 50 and you are happy with 588 dps, where all the rats happily spawn at that magnificent range then sit still for you. You spend more time killing them and twiddling. Go on admit it. You like to still in missions and do nothing, you used to afk with a domi before drone aggro, you used to field an expensive tank on everything as gank never came into it. You flew a raven. PVP is just scary to you? What a wanker.

... stuff ...

Here's a hint, when insulting someone in text format, make sure that you have your grammar correct in the insult . . . oh wait you're the clueless prick

... more stuff ... Ishtar ...

yeah because [the Ishtar] does kinetic damage SO much better than the vargur.

If you can show me a ship that does angel cartel missions more effectively than mine does then I'd be happy to see it.
588 DPS is the worst case scenario, and if you're not creative enough to see how you can use a MJD to keep rats @ < 50km then you're beyond help.

go ahead show me a ship that can do better; the closest you can come to doing consistently more damage with damage selection is the golem, but even then you have the defender missile problem and the missile travel time issue.

Lets see 90k, Wardens ... yup.

Lol - what a sorry excuse for an expert you are. You use autocannon and keep everything at 50k range? How do you do that in all missions. In all those other missions you make the rats spawn magically just where you want them and sit perfectly still - to get an amazing 580 dps. You have a magical WoW map? You have to use angel missions where they close on you as a reason to illustrate the Vargurs abilities - hell yeah - NOBODY KNEW THAT! You are - as previously noted - clueless and a prick.

Golem, range and damage selection.
Paladin, range and dps - not greatest for Angel, but nobody gets only angel missions. Unless they have a that amazing WoW magical spawn key on your keyboard.
Kronos does fine in Angel missions.

The key thing here, Siggy baby, is, well. You just come across as a total knobend. Would love to see your PVP record - it must be hilarious.

Kronos The Kronos does the same damage at basically the same range as the vargur except without damage selection . . . the only time its better is inside 17km . . . yeah sure it does ok, but you'd be hard pressed to show that this in any way makes the vargur obsolete.

Im not showing this at all. Assuming a 2 slot tank on both (3 if you count bastion), each have access to the same number of mids and lows:
I am using this template for dmg for both in my comparison
faction wep upgrade x4
TE II

faction TC x2

800mm IIs vs Neutron IIs
ambit I
burst II

in terms of raw dps:
null > RF phased til about 56.1km( about 65km with bastion)
hail > null til about 20km (about 21km with bastion)

navy antimatter > rf phased til about 28.6km ( about 30.8km with bastion)
navy antimatter > hail til about 27.4km (about 30km with bastion)

void > hail til about 20km (about 22.3km with bastion)

Outside bastion there is no ammo the vargur can use to outperform a kronos in raw dps out to 56.1km (65km with bastion).
Kronos can actually receive a benefit from the bastion modules optimal bonus with certain ammo and gets a better drone bay.

but hey the vargur gets better speed right?.... which goes great with bastion...

RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more

RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more

800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range

...and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting.

This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.

RF Phased owns Null at 36km or more

RF Phased outdamages Fed navy antimatter at 23km or more

800mm AC's also outtrack null at any range and can swap to barrage for 60-100 km shooting. This is not even mentioning the selectible damage types.

The Kronos is second class to the vargur in most realistic scenarios unless you have specific needs for its damage profile. The Kronos is now unmatched at soloing serpentis anoms for example while the Vargur is superior as an all around platform.

Price has gone up like 10% in 3 days. Yeah it's the worst marauder ever.

Assuming similar fittings ( 4xgyro/mag stab, burst aerator II, 1 TE 2 TC/ 3 TC ) your first statement is utterly false.

Assuming similar fittings as stated above your second statement is false as well its more like 31km at which the Kronos swaps to NULL and out dps the Vargur again out to 60 km which is when the Vargur finally gets the advantage.

Assuming a Blaster Kronos vs AC Vargur scenario.

However the Vargur can play turret mode and with a quick swap to Barrage can even hose down targets up to 100km with good tracking and selectable damage types and ok dps, (being able to choose damage types offsets the perceived lack of paper dps quite a bit) something a blaster Kronos can not so I would not consider it rubbish at all, so at least your final statement is correct.

The only out of whack Marauder is the Paladin which is over performing quite obviously both with Mega Pulse and especially with Tachys but this goes well in line with CCPs modus operandi to always make something FOTM with every change until it gets nerfed.

Check the EFT DPS graph, and I was comparing my own fits which is 2TC / 3 Magstab for the Kronos and a Burst II, although that might be overtanked.


Neutrons with Null at 50% Falloff: 19+20.5= 39.5km

800mm AC's with RF Phased at 50% falloff: 4.7 + 35.5= 41.2km,

The RAW DPS difference is marginal but they both hit optimal +50% falloff at about 35-40km on average and after that the vargur has 35km falloff to go compared to the 20km of the kronos. At that point the Vargur WILL out DPS null. Period.


For anything inside that range the kronos is superior in terms of raw dps though.

For perspective:
ppl use 5% dmg implants all the time.
machariel's base turret dps lead over the vargur is ~9.5%
Vindi's base turret dps lead over the kronos is ~10%

I'm not gonna blow 1b on fittings though. I don't mission nearly enough to make that back in a reasonable timeframe. Im thinking like 200-300m tops. Faction damage mods and fed navy TC's cost a fortune nowadays. The Two cheapass setups I had in mind meet eachother in DPS at about 37.5-40km at which point the vargur gets an advantage anyway.


But seriously:


19+43 vs 4.7+72 Is no debate at all. The Vargur will out dps the Kronos at 40-50km range and onwards plain and simple and this is not factoring in the higher tracking of RF PP.

Besides, I still prefer the Kronos for looks alone.

Sniping gimps the turret damage by 300 dps and drones + smart bombs are useless.

Still there are a good few missions were the rats are around 70km out. I think intercept the sabatuers is one. I think there are some rats that are that distance away on stop the thief as well. Not to mention worlds collide im sure there are more but im doing this all from memory so forgive me if i'm wrong. Maybe the blockade? im sure some of the rats there spawn 70-80 km away.
EDIT: oh yeah final rooms of dread pirate scarlet and angels extra as well.

so the mjd bonus is not useless either

Scorch does 820 DPS @ 100km. Where is the problem with that?

Scorch does 820 DPS @ 100km. Where is the problem with that?

The only mission it is kind of ok is massive attack since you get in 2 pockets a big spawn at 100km, and you have to bounce back to the gate in the 3. pocket(the Kronos was such a good ship for that before the nerf, because it could throw out good dps at 100km with rails and sentry's), for the others a MWD will be a lot better(especially blockade, where you want to bounce 20-30km a lot between the spawns to deal high dps all the time).

Why is that the only mission where its kind of ok? I have listed several missions where the rats are 70km out, and there are more i just cant remember them right now. MJD'ing to them will put you 30km off....

Posting in an Eve Online "first world problem" thread... T2 Battleship complaints. Wow.

You have a bastion mode marauder and you are needing to get into range? Use ******* arties. Get T1 ammo with different ranges. PWN **** and GTFO.

Not to be abrasive, but you're just wasting a whole lot of ship like that. You don't need Bastion for the tank at artillery range, you're too far to loot and salvage at the same time, and artillery + MJD underperforms against AC + MWD when you look at mission run time and isk/hr.

There are some good arguments both for and against bastion mode. I haven't seen any good arguments for Arties on a Marauder.

Rubicon brought these nifty little modules called "Mobile Tractor Units" with ranges of 100km+. And as a AC boat you're always fighting in falloff. Thats the problem with ACs, no matter what boat you choose. Also MJD increases optimal and falloff, as well as boosting tank so you can drop a mod for another TC/TE.

ALL of you phucking EFT warriors need to turn it off and go into the game and play the GD game FFS.

What you will see is ALL of the Marauders rock now and are more than capable of doing ANY level 4 including the bonus room in Angel Ex. with ease.

Arguing over non consequential differences is silly...then again this is eve forums... Sorry carry on...

• You can only reasonably use one mobile tractor at once, which is a really slow way to do it (especially at range). If you're leaving them behind to return and clean up later that's fine, but for loot/salvage as you go, 3 tractors and a flight of salvage drones is going to keep up much better.
• Yes, ACs are always fighting in falloff. But with ridiculous 70km+ falloffs, if you pick the right spot to set up you're still going to be applying at least as much DPS on average as best-case-scenario arties.
• Even with a relatively tanky close range Bastion fit, you're already stacking so many range modules that the Bastion bonus is tiny and any more modules aren't going to help significantly.

There's certainly nothing wrong with using an arty Vargur if that's your thing. It'll work just fine. But ACs still feel like the stronger option to me. (I reserve the right to change my mind on a mission-by-mission basis, but haven't yet found one where I felt arties would work better.)

i dont know why all the crying . i use ac vargur the other day it does angel blockade in under 20mins which is the same time as golem except you dont need to count volley . i did not even move just warp , bastion up and shoot.

A ton of asstalking and just straight up bullshit in this thread for sure.

• You can only reasonably use one mobile tractor at once, which is a really slow way to do it (especially at range). If you're leaving them behind to return and clean up later that's fine, but for loot/salvage as you go, 3 tractors and a flight of salvage drones is going to keep up much better.
• Yes, ACs are always fighting in falloff. But with ridiculous 70km+ falloffs, if you pick the right spot to set up you're still going to be applying at least as much DPS on average as best-case-scenario arties.
• Even with a relatively tanky close range Bastion fit, you're already stacking so many range modules that the Bastion bonus is tiny and any more modules aren't going to help significantly.

There's certainly nothing wrong with using an arty Vargur if that's your thing. It'll work just fine. But ACs still feel like the stronger option to me. (I reserve the right to change my mind on a mission-by-mission basis, but haven't yet found one where I felt arties would work better.)

Whats wrong with homogenisation? Why cant my Vagabond have 800 dps like my Ishtar? What is it that minmatar seem to have more or less the worst ships across the board

Golem and Paladin would smoke a Vargur shooting at BS at range of 50km +, most mission in Minmatar space have only a few BS and room filled with frigates and cruisers which the Vargur just smoke everything you can name, Vargur has higher scan resolution and much better tracking. Only mission i can think of that Vargur has problems is The Blockade, Angel Extravaganza, Massive Attack and The Assault since you have to move with mwd... We can switch to Barrage for higher range.

On missions like Attack of the drones, intercept the Saboteur, Damsel, Vengeance or World Collide... to name a few, the Vargur will smoke anything due to proximity and target size. I'm talking Minmatar space here, would probably not do so well in other region. Not sure why you would want to fly a Vargur elsewhere tbh...

because the only agents worth running mission in empire are SOE agents.

even with 70 km falloff. Vargur is far far less effective than golem and paladin ( I do not have a kronos to comapre, have only the other 3). I only undock the vargur for a single misson now.. Buzz kill. Its the only one the vargur completes faster than the other 2. In the others, its WAY slower.

Falloff is nOT range. at 70 km you are doign HORRIBLE DPS. If your falloff is 70 km, you should try to fight at 25 km to have a GOOD dps. Anythign further than that and you do less dps than a paladin does at 70 km and less than a golem does at 200 km

*shrug* I'll take your word for it. I'm only trained in Minmatar so far, so I couldn't really care less about the other ones. All I know is that Rubicon improved the Vargur for me.


Huh? Falloff is not range? Of course it is. And no, no one's suggesting to run a 70km falloff ship with a 70km engagement range, so you can forget that strawman. But at 48km (edge of tractor range) on a reasonable Vargur fit, you still get around 70% of max DPS, which is nothing to sneeze at, especially since it only increases as things get closer (and you have lots of leeway there with the great tracking).

vargur is only good on missions where the rats throw themselves upon you.

You got a big hole in EM. slower speed, slower scan, no crits and slower ROF.

And to answer the quote that's about 85% of minmatar missions.