Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 26 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Pinky Hops
Spartan's DNA Apex.
46
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 16:47:00 -
[361] - Quote
non judgement wrote:I'm all for some kind of order cancelling/hiding/suspending of orders when you don't have enough isk to cover the minimum quantity * price. Something like that would be okay.
The only thing I'd like, is an evemail or notification specifically saying the buy order item, how much it was and which station it was in, was removed because of insufficient funds.
The game doing something like this, and having an easy way to figure out what happened, would be good.
Edit: Just saying if there wasn't something like this and the order was just removed, I'd probably just forget that I had an order for it.
What if the order became flagged as "Inactive - insufficient funds" in your market order screen?
You could then right click the order -> Add funds to the order, to make it active again.
I like the concept of each purchase order having an individual pool of funds that you can manage/inject as needed. |
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
110
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 17:10:00 -
[362] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dav Varan wrote:Mag's wrote: But even without the MT skill, a buy order is still not guaranteed for other reasons. So what should we do, nerf those reasons too? Or do you think simply telling people that they shouldn't assume anything and that buy, as well as sell orders, are not guaranteed?
what things make a buy order non guaranteed apart from MT please enlighten. Someone could sell to it before you, or the person could pull the order before you had chance to utilize it.
lol no one in eve thinks orders are unique and available only to them.
Were talking about why people perceive the prinipal as being guaranteed if people can meet the order. not wether they can meet it or not.
|
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
110
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 17:15:00 -
[363] - Quote
Change the way the margin trading skill works.
Rather than putting up orders for the whole amount make it work in a repeat order manner.
When an order completes it can relist another identical order. Each level of MT allows an extra relisting.
Alll orders are fully paid in advance to escrow and I have a drop down box to specifiy how many repeats I want. 1- 5 at max skills
e.g. 1) I put an order up for 200 trit @ 4isk per unit, I specifiy 3 repeats. This cost me 800isk + fees and tax
2) Order procedes as it does now with people selling into the order. 3) when someone complete the order a new order is automatically created with 1 less repeat.
4) The new order is only created if I have enough funds to pay for it otherwise I get a notification of relist failure. This costs me 800isk + tax ( no fees which are taken on intial order )
5) I now have an order for 200 trit @ 4isk per unit with 2 repeats. . . . . . I end up with 800 trit. But only needed enough in my wallet at any point to cover 200.
Margin trading without fake buy orders.
|
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4382
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 22:22:00 -
[364] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Drab Cane wrote:Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled. This right here is the problem. Nowhere does anything in the game suggest you make that assumption. Incorrect. Placing buy orders on the market suggests this. Unitl a player trains MT which is some time into most players game experiance.
EVE is an exception based design. Should CCP remove every ability because people who don't have the skill to use that ability can't use that ability?
Regardless, where in the UI elements related to placing buy orders does it say that everyone must place 100% of the value of the order into escrow? "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15710
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 22:26:00 -
[365] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:Mag's wrote:Dav Varan wrote:Mag's wrote: But even without the MT skill, a buy order is still not guaranteed for other reasons. So what should we do, nerf those reasons too? Or do you think simply telling people that they shouldn't assume anything and that buy, as well as sell orders, are not guaranteed?
what things make a buy order non guaranteed apart from MT please enlighten. Someone could sell to it before you, or the person could pull the order before you had chance to utilize it. lol no one in eve thinks orders are unique and available only to them. Were talking about why people perceive the prinipal as being guaranteed if people can meet the order. not wether they can meet it or not. Well some seem to think and you seemed to imply with that question, that the MT skill is the only thing that makes buy orders not fit the 'guaranteed' term. lol indeed.
Oh and the funny thing is, you've hit the nail on the head with that second sentence. What people perceive is the issue, so let's tell them that no order is guaranteed. Then they may stop assuming things from those poor perceptions, lack of due diligence and stop making bad investments.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Careby
Careby Exploration
101
|
Posted - 2013.11.28 23:12:00 -
[366] - Quote
Mag's wrote:...What people perceive is the issue... Yeah, there is this town near me where all the traffic lights are set up in an unusual manner. At intersections, the green lights facing each direction all come on at the same time. A lot of inexperienced drivers have collisions there because they assume the green lights mean it is safe to proceed when in fact it is not. The town has gained a bit of a bad reputation as an unsafe place to live, and many people avoid it. So a town meeting was called to see what could be done about it. There was a very good turnout at the meeting, but the people of the town do not seem to want to agree on a solution.
One group suggested that the town change the traffic lights so that the green lights only come on when it's safe to drive through the intersection. A second group objected to this idea, saying that even if such a change is made, the traffic lights cannot be trusted to tell drivers when the intersections are safe, because other drivers can still run red lights and cause collisions. A third group, which included some collision repair shop owners, objected to using town funds to make any changes at all, because good drivers can tell when it's safe to cross an intersection without relying on traffic lights. Some of the members of this group suggested that removing the lights might be a reasonable compromise, but the collision repair guys disagreed, saying the lights were vital to their business. A fourth group preferred to leave things alone, because they like the town's lack of popularity, and worry that improved safety might cause an influx of new residents. Yet another group brought up the argument that since they are color blind, it doesn't matter whether the lights are red or green. Another group claimed that education is the answer, and that if the town just explains to each new driver how the lights work, and warns them about the risk of collision, the problem will be solved.
I realize this is completely off topic, but I thought it was a cool story and wanted to share.
|
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1987
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 05:47:00 -
[367] - Quote
EA really, really wants you guys to eliminate scamming before they'll buy in, don't they, CCP? Point Blank Alliance [DAKKA] is currently recruiting corporations to join in our lowsec piracy operations. For more information, please add the in game channel 'weflyrifters' or speak to a DAKKA member today. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1699
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 05:51:00 -
[368] - Quote
Domanique Altares wrote:EA really, really wants you guys to eliminate scamming before they'll buy in, don't they, CCP?
Yeah, I think the EA guy is where all this casualization **** started too.
"We could market the game better if it weren't so harsh to all the poor casual players". When the EVE attitude should be "F*** those people!" Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1987
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 05:59:00 -
[369] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Domanique Altares wrote:EA really, really wants you guys to eliminate scamming before they'll buy in, don't they, CCP? Yeah, I think the EA guy is where all this casualization **** started too. "We could market the game better if it weren't so harsh to all the poor casual players". When the EVE attitude should be "F*** those people!"
Yes, well. One does try to pretty their things up when they're hoping to solicit a buyer or investor. They might even go to the lengths of bringing in some former management from their prospective suitor, in order to make the deal even more palatable. Point Blank Alliance [DAKKA] is currently recruiting corporations to join in our lowsec piracy operations. For more information, please add the in game channel 'weflyrifters' or speak to a DAKKA member today. |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
863
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 06:42:00 -
[370] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:non judgement wrote:I'm all for some kind of order cancelling/hiding/suspending of orders when you don't have enough isk to cover the minimum quantity * price. Something like that would be okay.
The only thing I'd like, is an evemail or notification specifically saying the buy order item, how much it was and which station it was in, was removed because of insufficient funds.
The game doing something like this, and having an easy way to figure out what happened, would be good.
Edit: Just saying if there wasn't something like this and the order was just removed, I'd probably just forget that I had an order for it. What if the order became flagged as "Inactive - insufficient funds" in your market order screen? You could then right click the order -> Add funds to the order, to make it active again. I like the concept of each purchase order having an individual pool of funds that you can manage/inject as needed. Yeah, I like that idea as well.
Having some way to tell a buy order to ignore what the skill does and take all the isk it needs from a wallet for the item, while making and after making the buy order would be good. Then showing others which buy orders don't have the isk to cover them, would be okay as well.
|
|
Roime
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
3715
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 06:49:00 -
[371] - Quote
How is this even remotely important enough to use dev time on? Notify-á-á You cannot do that while warping. |
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance
1992
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 07:14:00 -
[372] - Quote
Roime wrote:How is this even remotely important enough to use dev time on?
They can't spend their entire day on Reddit. Point Blank Alliance [DAKKA] is currently recruiting corporations to join in our lowsec piracy operations. For more information, please add the in game channel 'weflyrifters' or speak to a DAKKA member today. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
15711
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 07:27:00 -
[373] - Quote
Careby wrote:Mag's wrote:...What people perceive is the issue... Yeah, there is this town near me where all the traffic lights are set up in an unusual manner. At intersections, the green lights facing each direction all come on at the same time. ....snip.... I realize this is completely off topic, but I thought it was a cool story and wanted to share. Yes it was off topic and not even remotely the same. If there is any sort of comparison to be made (and there isn't really), it is as follows. New drivers perceive a green light and assume that all traffic will stop at red and amber lights, we just want them informed this isn't the case. A warning will do.
Even though real life comparisons are always bad in regards to Eve, you failed rather spectacularly with that one. Congrats.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Elzon1
Shadow Boys Corp
175
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 08:09:00 -
[374] - Quote
The simplest solution to this might be to just "grey-out" any buy order that cannot be completed due to being a margin trade where the buyer doesn't have enough isk to cover the deal at the moment.
If the seller attempts to sell to said buy order a message pops up warming the player that the current trade will fail due to the buyer not having enough isk to cover the trade. However, the player can choose to ignore this (unwise).
If someone has a buy order up that can't be covered due to low isk reserves it will show up on the seller's market interface. This can prevent an order from being cancelled accidentally by differentiating between a good buy order and a non-completing buy order. Also, this prevents a margin trader's buy order from cancelling prematurely.
|
Dav Varan
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
110
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 09:36:00 -
[375] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Dav Varan wrote:RubyPorto wrote:Drab Cane wrote:Right now, we take it for granted that the order will be filled. This right here is the problem. Nowhere does anything in the game suggest you make that assumption. Incorrect. Placing buy orders on the market suggests this. Unitl a player trains MT which is some time into most players game experiance. EVE is an exception based design. Should CCP remove every ability because people who don't have the skill to use that ability can't use that ability? Regardless, where in the UI elements related to placing buy orders does it say that everyone must place 100% of the value of the order into escrow?
That wasn't the question. The question was what suggested it.
You have been educated as to what in the interface gives the suggerstion that buy orders are guaranteed.
Experiance.
|
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
864
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 15:18:00 -
[376] - Quote
Maybe have the system give us the name of the buyer in case the order fails so you can transfer the extra isk across to make it go through. That would stop the scamming part of the skill without breaking the ligitimate uses. Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
|
Antihrist Pripravnik
Paravan Korporacija
138
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 16:45:00 -
[377] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Careby wrote:Mag's wrote:...What people perceive is the issue... Yeah, there is this town near me where all the traffic lights are set up in an unusual manner. At intersections, the green lights facing each direction all come on at the same time. ....snip.... I realize this is completely off topic, but I thought it was a cool story and wanted to share. Yes it was off topic and not even remotely the same. If there is any sort of comparison to be made (and there isn't really), it is as follows.
Well, I wouldn't agree. Let's take a look, shall we (but before we start, no, I'm not for removing Marging trading skill or changing mechanics of it):
"One group suggested that the town change the traffic lights so that the green lights only come on when it's safe to drive through the intersection."
Eliminating Margin trading skill = only market orders that have actual ISK behind them will be possible for maximum safety.
"A second group objected to this idea, saying that even if such a change is made, the traffic lights cannot be trusted to tell drivers when the intersections are safe, because other drivers can still run red lights and cause collisions."
Even if the margin trading skill is removed, players will find other ways to scam on the market. Perceived by those who say this as a waste of dev time.
" A third group, which included some collision repair shop owners, objected to using town funds to make any changes at all, because good drivers can tell when it's safe to cross an intersection without relying on traffic lights. Some of the members of this group suggested that removing the lights might be a reasonable compromise, but the collision repair guys disagreed, saying the lights were vital to their business."
These are margin trading scammers with an argument that if you use your brain, you won't be scammed.
"A fourth group preferred to leave things alone, because they like the town's lack of popularity, and worry that improved safety might cause an influx of new residents."
I haven't found good EVE parallel to this one.
"Yet another group brought up the argument that since they are color blind, it doesn't matter whether the lights are red or green."
Those that are against the argument to leave the mechanics as is and providing more signals that it might be a scam. Players that don't look at the warning signs are going to be scammed anyway.
"Another group claimed that education is the answer, and that if the town just explains to each new driver how the lights work, and warns them about the risk of collision, the problem will be solved."
Those that propose that margin trading should stay in its original form and place information on how to avoid it.
See, it wasn't off topic :) CCP Ytterbium: Yarrblblbgrlblbgrlblblblbblbgrlblblbgrblblyarrrrdrooooooolonthekeyboardlikealunatic |
Drab Cane
Carbenadium Industries
9
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 18:38:00 -
[378] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Dav Varan wrote:Mag's wrote: But even without the MT skill, a buy order is still not guaranteed for other reasons. So what should we do, nerf those reasons too? Or do you think simply telling people that they shouldn't assume anything and that buy, as well as sell orders, are not guaranteed?
what things make a buy order non guaranteed apart from MT please enlighten. Someone could sell to it before you, or the person could pull the order before you had chance to utilize it.
This is really a good point.
Even if we tagged all of the buy orders with their 'margin trading status', a person could still see a big juicy buy order, buy the overpriced item at a different station (or on contract), and move the item, just to have the buy order disappear before they can sell it. As Dav Varan points out, there's a number of reasons why that would happen.
Because of the lag time in the market window, it is only going to be accurate as of a few seconds before. There's a limit to how accurate the market window can be. Most reasonable people can work with it just the way it is. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4385
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 18:46:00 -
[379] - Quote
Dav Varan wrote:RubyPorto wrote:EVE is an exception based design. Should CCP remove every ability because people who don't have the skill to use that ability can't use that ability?
Regardless, where in the UI elements related to placing buy orders does it say that everyone must place 100% of the value of the order into escrow? That wasn't the question. The question was what suggested it. You have been educated as to what in the interface gives the suggerstion that buy orders are guaranteed. Experiance.
In an exception based system, that you can't do something does not in any way imply that nobody can do that thing. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
593
|
Posted - 2013.11.29 21:45:00 -
[380] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The rules: 5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
31. Rumor mongering is prohibited.
Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the well being and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators. ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
Ayana Mayuko
Mayuko Sisters' Trading Enterprises Ltd.
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 00:53:00 -
[381] - Quote
Forgive me if this has been said already - I haven't read the entire thread.
Couldn't a simple fix just be to give the seller a warning that the order they're selling to won't be fulfilled, and then give them the option to sell to the next highest valid order? This not only fixes the issue with margin scams but avoids penalizing genuine players by not removing their order.
There has been many times in my own trade where I've had an order that is higher than my wallet balance. I know that I will probably sell enough overnight to cover that order if it does complete, however under the changes proposed in the OP, my order would be automatically cancelled regardless of what I make during the day. Not only is this an inconvenience, but it also means potentially lost profit and quite a lot of incurred taxes for no gain - especially bad for high ISK orders. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4386
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 01:21:00 -
[382] - Quote
Ayana Mayuko wrote:Couldn't a simple fix just be to give the seller a warning that the order they're selling to won't be fulfilled, and then give them the option to sell to the next highest valid order?
That already happens. The order fails and the seller is able to sell to the next buy order if they wish.
The people complaining want the order to fail before they make any attempt to actually acquire the item. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
iskflakes
715
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 01:25:00 -
[383] - Quote
As a very long term trader, here's my input:
Firstly never cancel our orders automatically. I run 300-1000 orders across many characters, and having some randomly cancel is a ridiculous mechanic, as it requires me to check a list of 1000+ orders for any that might be missing. What a mess. As an alternative, please temporarily disable (NOT CANCEL) orders which can't be met because the trader's balance is too low. This solution is right because:
1) It solves the margin scamming problem 2) It improves gameplay for current traders, who sometimes lose a few orders accidentally due to low balance + somebody selling to them. I always though the current system was badly designed and this fix would sort it out.
- |
Ayana Mayuko
Mayuko Sisters' Trading Enterprises Ltd.
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 01:39:00 -
[384] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Ayana Mayuko wrote:Couldn't a simple fix just be to give the seller a warning that the order they're selling to won't be fulfilled, and then give them the option to sell to the next highest valid order? That already happens. The order fails and the seller is able to sell to the next buy order if they wish. The people complaining want the order to fail before they make any attempt to actually acquire the item.
I was more thinking along the lines of actually warning the seller prior to the sale so they can make a judgement as to whether its a worthwhile sell - if they just sell to an order that can't fulfill they're automatically charged tax. They may decide after that the order that failed was the only reasonable order to sell to and that they don't want to sell anymore, therefore incurring tax for nothing.
Although I'm not entirely sure what the issue is, its very easy to spot these kind of scams, usually by the insane minimum volume or by simply checking the market history. Its a slightly broken mechanic to be able to have orders that you cannot cover (although removing them automatically is a bad idea) but if someone is really not smart enough to notice the scam then maybe the market isn't the right place for them. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
4386
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 02:18:00 -
[385] - Quote
Ayana Mayuko wrote:I was more thinking along the lines of actually warning the seller prior to the sale so they can make a judgement as to whether its a worthwhile sell - if they just sell to an order that can't fulfill they're automatically charged tax.
They are not. No transaction occurs. No tax is collected. "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
d-£-󦦦º-ó-ꦪ¦¦e¦¦-í-ë-í-󦦦+¦¦¦»-ö¦+b-¥¦º¦¦¦¦¦½¦¦-ö-ëa-Ŧ+-¥¦í¦+-à-à¦ñc¦ó-á¦í-ƒ¦«¦½¦Ö¦¦¦á-ò-çl-Ǧ¢-ü¦+-û¦ƒ¦¦-ô-ë-Ö-ô¦Ñ-ô¦¬¦½e¦+¦¿¦ù¦¦¦ÿ¦ù¦Ñ¦¼-ò-ꦽ¦¦¦+¦+-ö¦¦-à¦á¦ú¦ÿ |
Edlorna Tinebe
The Elerium Trust
6
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 04:22:00 -
[386] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:This isn't about scamming or whether or not it's okay for people to trick other people, which is obviously extremely EVE and we have no problem with. The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled.
Making any statement analogous to "the interface should not lie to the player" is dangerous. Do you really want to set that as a policy? Cloaking devices will make a player's overview lie to them, convincing them that they are alone when they aren't. It limits the types of content that can be released in the future, and deceiving others is so central to EVE that I can't imagine that this will never come back to haunt someone with an awesome idea.
I'm not saying that margin scams shouldn't be dealt with, but please be sure that you're setting a precedent you can live with. |
Yankunytjatjara
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
82
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 07:43:00 -
[387] - Quote
Statistics?
Are there any stats on how many margin trading scams there are a day? Failed orders could be real errors, probably are for the most part. My solo pvp video: Yankunytjude... That attitude! Solo/small gang proposal: Ship Velocity Vectors |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
650
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 08:33:00 -
[388] - Quote
I think the obvious way to fix it is to make unfillable buy orders not show up -- they would still exist, but would not be seen until the poster has enough money to allow them to be filled to the minimum amount that can be sold to it.
The problem with this solution is that it completely eliminates the margin trading scam, as far as I can see, anyway. I'd like it to still exist, as long as it's actually a scam and not a lying interface.
Something I'd like to see in the game which would prepare new players for a lot of what they can expect in EVE would be a set of tutorial missions in which the player actually gets scammed by NPCs. These tutorial missions should be out of the way and skippable, so a player has to go out of their way to access them - though Aura would mention where to get them of course. If done right, it could give players the necessary tools to avoid falling for scams, should they be determined enough to learn these things.
Here's an example mission to teach how to avoid the margin trading scam: * Tutorial NPC gives mission asking player to get 1x [Crate of Nanofiber Tubes] from market 1 jump over * when player accepts mission, market hub 1 jump over gains a sell order for several [Crate of Nanofiber Tubes], with one unit selling for 1000 ISK and the rest selling for 25,000 ISK each. * market hub also has a buy order claiming it will pay 1 million ISK for a single [Crate of Nanofiber Tubes], but order fails due to insufficient funds * if player attempts to sell to the order, then upon turning in the mission, the NPC will scold the player for falling for that, explain how it works, and offer a consolation with a NPC buy order value of ~10,000 ISK. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Gnadolin
Space Pioneers Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
12
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 08:44:00 -
[389] - Quote
A very simple solution, wich was already posted in this thread, wich would even improve the situation for common traders: Just hide orders from the market list where the minimum sell volume is not covered. If you want to go one step further, reduce the visible order volume to the covered value. For example, if someone has a buy order up for ten items with one million ISK each, but can only cover three of those ten with his ISK, the order shows up as a buy order for three items.
Small traders would even benefit from this, as their orders dont fail at all even if not covered and thus safes them money for taxes and brokers fee. Ans its a really simple solution, easy to implement and without any more effort for anyone using the market. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
254
|
Posted - 2013.11.30 14:31:00 -
[390] - Quote
First off, I agree that something should be done about the margin trading mechanics. Because having market orders fail on an anonymous market for purely technical reasons that don't involve player interactions and are invisible to the potential seller is rather silly and I would say broken.
There's nothing wrong with scamming, but scams should either require live interaction by the scammer or if they don't require interaction and are purely based on automatic game mechanics, they should be visible to a potential victim.
I have proposed the solution about automatically cancelling each single uncovered order before and I still think this is a working solution and leaves the skill useful enough for traders while fixing the problematic issues with the skill. I guess hiding the orders and bringing them back once they're covered again would work too. And it's worth discussing if it would require the whole order or just the minimum amount to be covered. I'm leaning towards the whole order, but I could live with either.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:If you implement this, thereby negating the value of the Margin Trade skill, I'd request you refund my SP in Margin Trading. Oh come on, demanding a SP refund for a slightly rebalanced skill? You're here long enough to know that won't happen and you're better than that.
Tippia wrote:All buy orders are only potential offers, not guarantees. Educate your players about this very simple fact rather than try to instil an (incorrect) sense of protection in them. The buy order you spotted may fall through by the time you click the "sell" button for a bajillion different reasons GÇö inadequate wallet is just one of them, so why does it need any kind of special attention? Because it's the only reason (I'm aware of, short of order duration ending) that doesn't require player interaction between the time the order query was done and the time you try to fulfill the order. In other words: it's the only reason which the broker system could've already known by the time it gave you the info, but didn't tell you.
Quote:The information needed not to fall for the scam is right there, on the market interface, so the notion that the interface is lying to the player is a false one. No, the information is not right there. Not only is there no indication whatsoever that buy orders are not guaranteed in the same sense that sell orders are guaranteed, i.e. that they will be valid as long as there is no player interaction with them (or till the order duration is over), but also the information you are probably referring to (I guess market history of the region) can be easily manipulated too to suggest an item is worth more than it actually is by doing fake inter-alt sales. Of course this depends on the item in question and its trade volume. But all this is really slightly besides the point, cause IMO this whole thing is not about getting rid of "the scam".
The fact of the matter is, that even with all the knowledge you could ever have about an item and the market game mechanics, there's simply no way of telling if a buy order is fake or real. Having such a situation on an anonymous market makes no sense and IMO means the system is broken. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 26 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |