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warzonetemp
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2013.11.23 05:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Seems to me that the two are starting to get into competition again, but I do not know how good a Vargur can be versus a Mach.
I am a Machariel guy myself, but I can fly a Vargur if I wanted to. The only things about the Vargur is how slow the damn thing is. MJD is useful benefit, so it makes me wonder if it might be as a good ship.
However, again pure numbers, Mach's have 7 guns with bonus to 25% damage or 8.75 guns, which Vargur does not have at only 4 guns with 100% or 8 guns. Raw DPS belongs to the Mach. Bastion mode gives Vargur the better tank of course, but Mimmitar ship philosophy is hit hard and fast, not sit back and relax like Gallente drone pilots with Rattlesnakes. Being a stationary target versus a moving target seems to hold back Vargur in my mind.
I freely admit, I might be missing something, so I want to ask for opinions on these two ships. Also, I know Mach's are more practical for PvP in the past than Vargur (sensor strength is atrocious), which is not in dispute. |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
210
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 07:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
My Kronos and Vargur rusting in my hangar again. I went back to my mach with the speed, dps and web nerfs there is hardly a point to fly them if you didn't have massive issues tanking L4.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Dato Koppla
Retribution Innovations
389
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 07:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mach, it's not even close. Tanking is not a problem on either ship, sure you save a slot or two by being able to use Bastion on the Vargur but the fact that it makes you immobile is really bad considering you're using autocannons. Mach also gets a bigger dronebay/bandwith and can actually utilize heavies/sentries which further pushes its dps up. The only thing about the Mach is that it is yet to be rebalanced, so depending on how hard CCP hits it with the nerfbat it may be dethroned from mission king. |
Tarmaniel
State War Academy
Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2013.11.23 10:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't understand how people can talk about the Mach's mobility and then mention sentry drones. If you're deploying sentry drones, your mobility is highly irrelevant. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
835
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 10:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
warzonetemp wrote:Seems to me that the two are starting to get into competition again, but I do not know how good a Vargur can be versus a Mach.
I am a Machariel guy myself, but I can fly a Vargur if I wanted to. The only things about the Vargur is how slow the damn thing is. MJD is useful benefit, so it makes me wonder if it might be as a good ship.
However, again pure numbers, Mach's have 7 guns with bonus to 25% damage or 8.75 guns, which Vargur does not have at only 4 guns with 100% or 8 guns. Raw DPS belongs to the Mach. Bastion mode gives Vargur the better tank of course, but Mimmitar ship philosophy is hit hard and fast, not sit back and relax like Gallente drone pilots with Rattlesnakes. Being a stationary target versus a moving target seems to hold back Vargur in my mind.
I freely admit, I might be missing something, so I want to ask for opinions on these two ships. Also, I know Mach's are more practical for PvP in the past than Vargur (sensor strength is atrocious), which is not in dispute.
What you want to do with them?
LEvel 4sw? THose are very very very easy to tank and DPS and mobility means everythign so machariel win hands down.
Want to run solo WH content? Where Ewar hurts you are webbed all time and the msallest dps in your head will be over 9 thousand? Then you need a marauder.
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
hellcane
Never Back Down
102
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 12:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tarmaniel wrote:I don't understand how people can talk about the Mach's mobility and then mention sentry drones. If you're deploying sentry drones, your mobility is highly irrelevant.
Looks better on paper/eft/forums to use faction ammo and sentries for the DPS total. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
56
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 12:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tarmaniel wrote:I don't understand how people can talk about the Mach's mobility and then mention sentry drones. If you're deploying sentry drones, your mobility is highly irrelevant.
Drop them on the gate then roam |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
328
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 12:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
For L4s, dump the Vargur. If you don't need to tank, take a mach.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec" |
FerrunOnFire
Tzolk'in
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 13:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mach vs Vargur: mach the better
Mach vs Vargur+ tractor unit: Vargur is way better |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
56
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 13:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mach > vargur |
stoicfaux
3409
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 13:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
MWD Mach is "better" than the Vargur because you can close the distance faster, thus reducing DPS loss to falloff. Drone DPS is mostly irrelevant because of drone travel time and often the drone DPS from heavies isn't applied fast enough to save you a significant amount of time. (Personally I use heavy TP/Web drones, which have 10+km optimals) to help the Mach's guns hit better at close range.)
Vargur is better than the Mach, because it's more practical to use faction ammo and a T2 RoF rig on a Vargur in which case the Vargur has more raw gun DPS. OTOH, there's nothing stopping you from using faction ammo and a T2 RoF rig on a Mach. (Personally, I stick with using T1 ammo on the Mach because you're constantly buying ammo.)
Vargur is better than the MWD Mach because the Vargur is easier to fly. With the Mach, you have to actually to move. Which is tedious.
Mach + Sentry drones is maybe better than the Bastion Vargur. The Vargur can field two sentry drones to the Mach's four. However, the Vargur's ability to loot/salvage on the fly probably makes up any income loss from having two less sentry drones. OTOH, the Mach can reposition faster, especially since your drone control range is probably limited to 60km.
Mach is worst because you need to armor tank it due to the TE nerf. I'm okay with minimal tanks, but, meh, armor tanking in level 4s is meh.
tl;dr - sentry drones are overrated, MWD Mach is best, Vargur is also best depending on your needs.
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GanSkla
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 14:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
How many missions will I have completed in my Mach, while you're still salvaging that first mission?  |
stoicfaux
3409
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 16:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
GanSkla wrote:How many missions will I have completed in my Mach, while you're still salvaging that first mission?
You salvage what you can without stopping, i.e you don't sit there and salvage/loot everything. (Unless of course the value of looting/salvaging everything is greater than time towards running another mission.)
Also, both the mach and the vargur can drop the new fangled tractor and come back later.
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Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
207
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 16:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
GanSkla wrote:How many missions will I have completed in my Mach, while you're still salvaging that first mission?
Maybe 1.2. I lose a little DPS vs. a Mach in range and a little in drones, but with 3 tractors and a flight of salvage drones, once the last BS pops, he's pretty much the only wreck left on the field to loot and salvage. |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
210
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 16:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tarmaniel wrote:I don't understand how people can talk about the Mach's mobility and then mention sentry drones. If you're deploying sentry drones, your mobility is highly irrelevant.
It is fairly simple actually. You mwd in range, deploy drones and scoop them when you move to the next spawn.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Dato Koppla
Retribution Innovations
390
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 19:08:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tarmaniel wrote:I don't understand how people can talk about the Mach's mobility and then mention sentry drones. If you're deploying sentry drones, your mobility is highly irrelevant.
MWD up to 20-30km from a group of rats while popping frigs on the approach, stop, drop sentries, murder all the BS/BC/Cruisers, scoop sentries and MWD to the outgate/next group, all while constantly shooting your guns. Being able to position yourself at your preferred engagement range all the time is what makes MWD Mach awesome. |
Akonnen
Birds of Prey Inc.
10
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 20:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Actually mach and vargur are pretty similar dps wise, using roughly same fitting as my vargur, mach only had 100 more dps, a lower shield resist, lower shield rep, lower cap, no bastion, no salvager, twice the ammo consumption, and about 10-15km less falloff which sucks bad. Have fun.
Forgot less tracking too. |
Thaddeus Eggeras
TwoTenX
LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
108
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 20:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Golem or Rattlesnake |
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
69
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 21:33:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vargur already owns Mach. CCP has already stated the mach is better than it should be and will be brought in-line during the pirate/navy battleship rebalance. Save yourself the heartbreak and tears and stick with the Vargur or train into it. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
56
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 23:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kirkwood Ross wrote:Vargur already owns Mach. CCP has already stated the mach is better than it should be and will be brought in-line during the pirate/navy battleship rebalance. Save yourself the heartbreak and tears and stick with the Vargur or train into it.
I have this terrible suspicion that the mach will complete lose its falloff bonus for something like a tracking bonus.... |
hellcane
Never Back Down
104
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 00:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Flew both, prefer vargur. Both are good ships but be ready to sell fast at the first sign of a nerf. I expect the price will plummet. |
Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
148
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 01:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
They are both great and have advantages and disadvantages on paper that DO NOT translate directly to actual fighting. Having said that it really comes down to personal preference in what your playstyle is.
If you like to blitz and don't salvage then the Mach might be you cup of tea. If you like to kill all and have the salvaging and looting gone by the time you kill each pocket then a Marauder with a Mobile tracting unit is the way to go.
Either way it is so easy to kill red pluses there is no way to go wrong here people. |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
480
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 03:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
chaosgrimm wrote:Kirkwood Ross wrote:Vargur already owns Mach. CCP has already stated the mach is better than it should be and will be brought in-line during the pirate/navy battleship rebalance. Save yourself the heartbreak and tears and stick with the Vargur or train into it. I have this terrible suspicion that the mach will complete lose its falloff bonus for something like a tracking bonus....
I doubt CCP would do such a thing. Its an autocannon boat, it'll have its falloff bonus.
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Mer88
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 06:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
mach got paper tank, you cant fly it recklessly also it eats ammo too quickly if you are not near supply hub it can be annoying. Also, both mach and vargur is only godly figthing angels. when you fight other npcs you end up chasing them each time you want to maximize your dps |
Akonnen
Birds of Prey Inc.
10
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 12:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
I find the Varg to be alot better at blitzing than a Mach. With the vargur tank you just pop the mwd and fly right into them get close and apply max dps, can tank 10-15 BS and more. This is what blitzing is all about, just focus on the target you need to take down, use tractor if needed while aligning and warp out. On alot of missions the mach tank and falloff isn't good enough to blitz efficiently. |
Tara Tyrael
Wolfger's Retreat
115
|
Posted - 2013.11.24 12:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
As a person who owns multiple machariels, for missions and incursions, if we look for PVE only:
Mach was the king...
2 bill Vargur now outperforms 4.5 bill Mach in missions.
You have better:
Tracking, and I mean way better.
Range, and I mean 25 km more falloff.
More room for ammo and less ammo consumption
Bastion = EWAR immunity... no jamms, no damps, no tracking disruption. Case closed.
Fit MWD to get in ranges.
You have worse:
DPS whole 50-100 less, but better applied and not gimped by ewar.
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The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
210
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 12:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
While I agree that it is a lot easier to fly, it's also very boring and kind of unsatisfying to use for people that managed to fly it with minimum tank properly.
stoicfaux wrote:Mach is worst because you need to armor tank it due to the TE nerf. I'm okay with minimal tanks, but, meh, armor tanking in level 4s is meh.
While everybody got different experiences with tanking and her own preferences, the armor mach is just fantastic(from the pov of somebody that flown even 200 dps armor tanks in L4 on a daily basis). It doesn't even takes much armor damage in most L4 missions and combined with the amazing mobility and dps it doesn't even feels light on tank(with around 350 dps omni tank) when you stress it a bit(like nuking the big spawns in the 2. pocket of Modus L4 at 30km range with a 3 slot tank).
stoicfaux wrote:tl;dr - sentry drones are overrated, MWD Mach is best, Vargur is also best depending on your needs.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
|
Nobbler Hakuli
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 13:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
I was going to say seeing as I haven't run a level 4 in years surely there are still damps ecm tracking disruptors or whatever in missions?
If so the Vargur has to be better and thats only in missions a vargur could run incursions solo I bet |
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
211
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 14:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Nobbler Hakuli wrote:I was going to say seeing as I haven't run a level 4 in years surely there are still damps ecm tracking disruptors or whatever in missions?
Yep, in some missions it's substantial. In many, it's not so bad.
Nobbler Hakuli wrote:a vargur could run incursions solo I bet
Probably, but it'd be purely academic, as you wouldn't get a payout. Also slow. |
Tara Tyrael
Wolfger's Retreat
115
|
Posted - 2013.11.25 14:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nobbler Hakuli wrote:I was going to say seeing as I haven't run a level 4 in years surely there are still damps ecm tracking disruptors or whatever in missions?
If so the Vargur has to be better and thats only in missions a vargur could run incursions solo I bet
Yes, there is damping and tracking disruptions.
For example, Blockade LVL 4 against sansha, you can do solo mach but you will need to burn 80 km in one direction, then for new spawn 120 km back since you get so bad numbers on autocannons, i remember having 5 km range in total from 60 km normal. You could fit arty, but you will still have to burn. What I used to do is bring 2 machs and then use the one who isn't dead in water from all the disruption. In some missions your mach gets down to like 15 km locking range, again, burn for it, or use two machariels.
Now with vargur, oh look, they are dampening and disrupting me, now where did I put that bastion shortcut... ah there it is, here we go infidels...
For incursions, it can't solo them, but yes, they can tank it, but you would most definitely need more then one, at least 7-8 to make any decent profits.
And yes, lastly, did Amarr Epic arc with Vargur + mobile tractor unit + salvage drones and with Orca sweeping each room after Vargur leaves with another mobile tractor and salvage drones and ended up at 87,3 mill per hour, using only one ship to lay down dps... Last time I did it with 2 machariels and noctis I was getting somewhere around 50-60 mill per hour (due all the ewar). In 3 months I will let you know how 2 Vargurs + salvage Orca works out.
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