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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mauxir
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:14:00 -
[331]
What other options did he have?
Just because someone forces you to do something in a pleasant and civil way doesnt mean it isnt forced.
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Trooper B99
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:16:00 -
[332]
So you are saying TRIGGER was forced to make that specific deal with FIX?
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Mauxir
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:17:00 -
[333]
You want me to paint you a picture as well?
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Hardin
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:19:00 -
[334]
 Originally by: Hardin
STAIN'S LEADERSHIP - A MOVIE
Just to add to this I think the way Trigger has been treated in all of this (by both sides) is horribly shabby!
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Trooper B99
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:20:00 -
[335]
Edited by: Trooper B99 on 27/02/2006 13:21:25
Quote:
You want me to paint you a picture as well?
*chuckles*
How hard is it for you to put yourself down in black and white and say "yes, TRIGGER was forced to make that specific deal with FIX"? Just simple follow through for yourself.
Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:20:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Mauxir
What other options did he have?
Just because someone forces you to do something in a pleasant and civil way doesnt mean it isnt forced.
The sword rattling didn't happen until after SA attempted to 'renegotiate'.
If you honestly believe otherwise, and that Trigger was forced to agree and didn't have the strength of character to stand up for himself (does that sound like Trigger to you), then I encourage you again to look at the logs and make your own mind up - I get the feeling you are just going on what you have been told ...
If you want to talk masters and slaves it is becomming clear you don't need to look outside of SA to see it.
Think for yourself.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Orc A
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:20:00 -
[337]
Quote:
Please, buy a tinfoil hat before opening your mouth anymore.
Thats what i LOVE about BoB forum warfare -
"****, we're loosing, quick, type up a personal flame to distrac people from the fact he's right!"
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Raid
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:23:00 -
[338]
Originally by: DB Preacher
So SA members now think that Trigger was SirMolle's slave.
Genius.
dbp
/me weeds through the propoganda
So this is the method you guys are using to defeat SA? Start posts like this one questioning SA leadership?...
Trying to Avoid answering questions and instead trying to point the finger at Orc A?..
Or my personal favorite... asking SA to look internally instead of externally for the reasons BOB went to war...
Clearly all your trying to acomplish here is to break up SA from within and save yourself the trouble or actually fighting them inside of stain.
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Mauxir
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:24:00 -
[339]
Avon mate you seem like a sensible person.
Answer me this why would SA who was on the verge of victory go into peace talks with FIX if there was no pressure from BoB?
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:26:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Orc A
Quote:
Please, buy a tinfoil hat before opening your mouth anymore.
Thats what i LOVE about BoB forum warfare -
"****, we're loosing, quick, type up a personal flame to distrac people from the fact he's right!"
Losing what exactly? The forum discussion?
Sorry, no.
Here's an idea for the SA Leadership...
Take Orc A's "abilities to foresee all potential outcomes of every discussion, fight and war" and put them to good use.
Where do you think this will lead?
Let me put up my own prophecies as long as Orc A continues to be the vocal point of SA.
Will SA ever defeat Fix? No.
Will SA ever defeat BoB? No.
Will SA ever control a station or pos in the south again? No.
Will SA ever be backed by any major political entity in the South? No.
Will SA ever be trusted by anyone in eve? No.
Will SA ever achieve anything as an alliance? No.
/me shrugs.
Now, go and put on the tinfoil hat, sit down like a good little boy and think about what you have done.
Remember and paint the big "D" on the front of your tinfoil hat.
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL6) Tanto
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:26:00 -
[341]
"Answer me this why would SA who was on the verge of victory go into peace talks with FIX if there was no pressure from BoB?"
Because the south is more stable with FIX alive than dead, which could be something SA might want to keep on mind..?
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:27:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Mauxir
Avon mate you seem like a sensible person.
Answer me this why would SA who was on the verge of victory go into peace talks with FIX if there was no pressure from BoB?
Because one friend asked two friends to resolve their differences.
Read the transcript of the events leading up to, and including, the first agreement.
Do you think it would have gone like that if BoB was forcing everyone to the table?
Really?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Mauxir
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:28:00 -
[343]
Edited by: Mauxir on 27/02/2006 13:29:19
Exactly josephine and thats why Trig when he went to the discussion table had only one option to agree or SA would die.
Pretty simple no matter how much you guys try to twist it.
EDIT: And thats not a discussion thats an order.
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Thomas Epsilon
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:29:00 -
[344]
This endless SA debate about who is running the show is getting boring.
Perhaps SA should post a public organizational chart and end this ;)
Seriously, SA should invest some time in PR and fix the leadership image (make TRIGGER chairman of the board, so he only looks like the leader, but has no real power)
_________________________
Thomas Epsilon
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:31:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Mauxir
Avon mate you seem like a sensible person.
Answer me this why would SA who was on the verge of victory go into peace talks with FIX if there was no pressure from BoB?
Why would SA, having achieved its goals - suddenly change them and start a war they cannot possibly win?
Why, if TRIGGER and SA didn't CARE what bob thought, ask sirmolle how we would ideally like the situation to evolve?
YOUR leaders, Maux, made the first approach to find out what WE wanted. We answered. Then Orc A countered it all. We didn't make the first approach for this, YOU did.
Therein lies the answer to our annoyance, and now to our increased support of FIX.
SA had achieved everything it had set out to do, it had reclaimed FAT, installed HUZZAH in Catch, pushed FIX back in to querious and, all the while, managed the bob - SA relationship very well indeed.
Then, well, we can see the result of "then".
Originally by: Thomas Jefferson
A society that will trade a little liberty for a little security will lose both and deserve neither
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MalaMo
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:33:00 -
[346]
Originally by: j0sephine
"Answer me this why would SA who was on the verge of victory go into peace talks with FIX if there was no pressure from BoB?"
Because the south is more stable with FIX alive than dead, which could be something SA might want to keep on mind..?
And how much more stable is now south ?
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Don't drink and drive, logon to EVE and fly. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:34:00 -
[347]
"Exactly josephine and thats why Trig when he went to the discussion table had only one option to agree or SA would die."
Uhmm i think we're talking of two different things now. o.O;
i said allowing FIX to live would be something that helps to keep the south stable which is beneficial to everyone living there, SA included. That's why i think this was reason good enough for SA to stop the war and negotiate end of it. Not because 'BoB would demand their slave TRIGGER to make it so or else' ... but out of SA's self-interest, without even need to ask them for that in the first place.
how is acting in SA's best self-interest making one the slave of BoB or anyone, now..? o.O
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R4d1o4ct1v3
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:35:00 -
[348]
Edited by: R4d1o4ct1v3 on 27/02/2006 13:36:19
So what I have gathered so far is this.
BoB favors FIX over SA, the reason is BoB belives them to be more stable and reliable ally.
FIX and SA forces have been having minor conflicts for some time bofore all this and SA are fed up and want to end it by killing them.
BoB, favoring FIX, will not let SA and FIX fight due to the chance FIX may lose and try to arange a friendly ceasefire.
At this time it appearce the SA leadership is not in agreement, some try to arrange peace (TRIGGER) others belive BoB has treeted them unfairly and go to war (Orc'a). In the end the warmongers win and SA declairs war on BoB and FIX.
Now this is my impression. Please correct me if im wrong.
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DISCLAIMER: All opinions in this post are the opinions af a week old, half eaten sandwitch and do in no way reflect the opinions of anybody within a 10km radius of the Eiffel towe |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:36:00 -
[349]
"And how much more stable is now south ?"
Since this destabilization is mostly thanks to tantrum of the same faction that wouldn't consider possibility of ceasefire in the first place until asked to, i don't get your point...
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:40:00 -
[350]
Originally by: R4d1o4ct1v3
Edited by: R4d1o4ct1v3 on 27/02/2006 13:36:19
So what I have gathered so far is this.
BoB favors FIX over SA, the reason is BoB belives them to be more stable and reliable ally.
FIX and SA forces have been having minor conflicts for some time bofore all this and SA are fed up and want to end it by killing them.
BoB, favoring FIX, will not let SA and FIX fight due to the chance FIX may lose and try to arange a friendly ceasefire.
At this time it appearce the SA leadership is not in agreement, some try to arrange peace (TRIGGER) others belive BoB has treeted them unfairly and go to war (Orc'a). In the end the warmongers win and SA declairs war on BoB and FIX.
Now this is my impression. Please correct me if im wrong.
nah, we never favoured one over the other BEFORE this occured.
In fact, Trigger and Mass have been allies to SirMolle and Evolution for longer than we have been.
The rest is spot on though.
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL6) Tanto
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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Farsenir
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:40:00 -
[351]
FIX doesn't post much in these forums, since most threads inevitably degenerate in chest beating and propaganda (for all sides involved). But I want to steal five minutes of your time and present FIX's position and reasons, two months after this all started.
I think that SA's biggest mistake was a gross misinterpretation of the situation they were facing. Two days (roughly) after FAT fell (and during a time when we were putting plans in motions to retake it), and after a months of fighting inside that system, SA had the impression FIX was broken in shards and unable to put up any further resistance.
Thus they dictated surrender terms that would have been understandable had they taken control of all of our stations and dominated our territories. The situation being what it was (FAT, the fringe system, the early resistance system fallen), FIX was getting ready for a second phase of the war. Talks with BoB are pretty common, both in peace and war times, and they decided to broker a ceasefire deal that was accepted by both sides.
(Before you jump in, Dantes, you were killed 5 minutes after those negotiations, information wasn't out alliance-wide yet).
Orc A subsequently showed up (I assume representing all of SA's leadership, based on the posts on various threads) and dictated those new terms, who had no base on the reality of the situation. FIX admitted we lost the battle for FAT, and SA would have gotten FAT out of it, with alot of teeth grinding on our side. SA's terms involved all of Querious, who wasn't even touched by the conflict (except some roaming SA gangs, but then based on that kind of warmongering I could say Stain region is all but conquered currently).
Thus we refused those terms, and the ceasefire was retired. The rest is history: SA attacked BoB in Delve, declared war on them, and two days later FIX retook FAT.
If anyone wants to go further back, the reason we put SA to neutral standings were described in the logs Orc A kindly posted of my conversation with him, around December if I'm not mistaken: SA never had travel rights in Querious, yet we had several instances of SA pilots trenspassing and acting like, for lack of better terms, jackasses when asked to leave. There were circumstances of SA shooting at some of our pilots, including one who was an admiral at the time, in the Catch pipe.
We had a discussion (alliance one) and decided SA weren't reliable enough to keep at positive standings. Which is very different from a full blown war declaration.
We indeed had an NBSI policy in Catch pipe, but that doesn't mean we were going to attack SA assets specifically.
To conclude, SA made their choices, we made ours, BoB made theirs. Three independent entities. And that's it.
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Mauxir
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:41:00 -
[352]
Diana our goal was not to retake FAT or Catch region. Our goal was to make FIX pay for their transgresions against us in the past.
You can only push us so far.
Of course we cared about what BOB thought because we considered you friends and we also knew that you would step in sooner or later so we wanted to test out the waters.
What we got from you was the same reply we got last time, that FIX had to live and we were tough out of luck.
I know how it looks to ppl that SA alliance has gone mad. That we were on the verge of victory just to lose it all because we are idiots.
The reason is simple. If we accepted the deal that bob "proposed" to us it would be no victory at all. All the stations in Catch couldnt wash out the sour taste in our mouths that our victory was handed to us by BoB.
We have our pride.
That pride was trampled during our first war with FIX when you first steped in.
No matter what everyone else says Stain Alliance is a proud alliance and we will do what we feel is right not because someone else forces us to do it but because we belive in it.
We may be stubborn and not always right but at least we have the courage to stand by our belifs even if that means our end.
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:44:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Mauxir
We may be stubborn and not always right but at least we have the courage to stand by our belifs even if that means our end.
So how do you feel now that you know that you will never defeat FIX and BoB will always stand alongside FIX against you?
Your pride over nothing has lost you everything... except of course your NPC stations and your stubborness.
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL6) Tanto
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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Mauxir
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:48:00 -
[354]
To be honest I feel like the chains have been lifted and I can finally breathe the air of freedome.
And never say never because you just never know. 
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:52:00 -
[355]
Maux - once again, we didn't go to stain and dictate, trigger came to us and ASKED.
There is a difference.
Originally by: Thomas Jefferson
A society that will trade a little liberty for a little security will lose both and deserve neither
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Sceartan
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Posted - 2006.02.27 13:54:00 -
[356]
Originally by: DB Preacher
So how do you feel now that you know that you will never defeat FIX and BoB will always stand alongside FIX against you?
Your pride over nothing has lost you everything... except of course your NPC stations and your stubborness.
dbp
Stain feels the same as anyone else in Eve that wants to have a good time shooting things - overjoyed.
I think the forum war is well and truly over and there's better places to enjoy the sport of competition. I humbly ask all Stain to bite their tongues and play this "bring it" game everyone is so fond of inside Eve.
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KirikaPhoenix
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Posted - 2006.02.27 14:01:00 -
[357]
I heartily agree there should be more fighting and less smacking. Forum smack does not make good videos.
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R4d1o4ct1v3
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Posted - 2006.02.27 14:04:00 -
[358]
One thing I find odd.
This whole thing comes down to BoB not wanting their two friends to fight. As it turns out BoB is now at war one of their friends in a efford to help the other.
This doesnt sound right to me.
A better way imo for BoB to keep up the friendship with SA as well as FIX would have been to step back and let the two factions fight this out as they both wanted.
The problem was to big and had been going on for to long. FIX and SA were not about to just lay down their Tachyons and go mine veld together. Peace nagotiations, normaly a good choise, was obviously not going to work this time.
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DISCLAIMER: All opinions in this post are the opinions af a week old, half eaten sandwitch and do in no way reflect the opinions of anybody within a 10km radius of the Eiffel towe |
Orc A
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Posted - 2006.02.27 14:09:00 -
[359]
Well, If BoB kept out of it the whole way and didnt come in with threats and tried to muscle us, it would have came down to The best alliance winning.
If an alliance thats supposed to watch your doorstep is defeated, perhaps it's time to look into getting someone more capable of that region's defence?
Not in BoB's eyes.
In BoB's eyes it seems better to turn on a long time friend for an ark mining carebear alliance.
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2006.02.27 14:15:00 -
[360]
Edited by: DB Preacher on 27/02/2006 14:16:46
Originally by: Orc A
Well, If BoB kept out of it the whole way and didnt come in with threats and tried to muscle us, it would have came down to The best alliance winning.
If an alliance thats supposed to watch your doorstep is defeated, perhaps it's time to look into getting someone more capable of that region's defence?
Not in BoB's eyes.
In BoB's eyes it seems better to turn on a long time friend for an ark mining carebear alliance.
I have no doubt that FIX would have remained in control of Querious.
And whether you think so or not, it really doesn't matter know because trust me, now you will never defeat FIX.
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL6) Tanto
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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