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Bottled Brain
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Posted - 2006.03.05 03:31:00 -
[61]
Sorry this is going a little bit offtopic:
I canŠt use it, but I donŠt know why everybody is so excited about barrage ammo.
It actually does nothing for your damage. Imo it actually reduces your damage because of the large falloff you forget about the drawbacks of falloff.
A large falloff is nice to kill smaller ships with uber tracking at the edge of falloff, thatŠs all.
But anything above 20% of falloff will reduce your damage drastically. Acs have to use falloff because they donŠt have enough tracking at optimal. But this doesnŠt mean itŠs good to use it extensively.
Against a dominix with a 3 hardener standard tank, barrage does a little bit less damage than emp.
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Xhieron
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Posted - 2006.03.05 03:44:00 -
[62]
I've spent the last few days researching Domi's and their setups. I've flown one, but never fitted it for the purpose of omgwtfpwning people. Long and short of it, I'm a BB newb, so I don't presume to tell anyone how to do things, or what makes a particular engagement fun or frustrating. BUT, I noticed something in this argument that's very interesting to me. This isn't a straight, "X1 + X2 = Domi is overpowered," "X1 + X2 = Domi is fine" argument. From the looks of things (I've yet to be ganked by one), a NOS'ing drone-happy Domi is a force to be reckoned with inside 22-25 km. That's a fair conclusion. I think it's also fair to say that at sniping range, a Domi is basically a sitting duck. The argument doesn't hinge on the actual merits of the ship, or the situationality of its common fittings: it hinges on whether or not anti-Domi pilots can kill a Domi--and kill it within range to lock it down.
I don't think the problem lies in the Domi's slot layout, or in Nos'ing in general (although I think true to form, there should be a situational countermeasure to nosing, such as a cap recharger that recharges a large amount, but only works under the attack of a Nos; if you dedicate a slot to it, you counter a slot on the opponent, ala ECM:ECCM). It lies in the fact that you can't scramble a Domi without getting into his/her optimal range.
If blasters were fixed, wouldn't this similarly be true about a blasterthron? --or any other close-range setup? The fact is, balance dictates that a close-range setup has the luxury of escaping if the need arises (I think the suggestion to MWD in and scramble a vulnerable Domi as he recalls his drones is the most insightful thing that's been said on the topic). It's not perfect, but them's the breaks. Winning an engagement doesn't always mean you get to annihilate the loser. If you can teach a domi pilot that he/she won't be able to sap you dry and maintain his/her tank no matter what he/she does to get to you, then you've eliminated the threat of that ship. You might not have the satisfaction of having destroyed that ship, but from what I've read, I gather that a good portion of Domi pilots feel just as frustrated about Ravens.
There will always be a hierarchy. People who aren't on top at a given time want to change the hierarchy until they're on top (and thus the subject of the next nerf-wave). It so happens that the Dominix is a versatile ship, and a lot of people are drawn to that. It has advantages that tend to make it "fotm" at the moment, but the whole "I'm scissors. Nerf rock. Paper is fine as it is." mentality isn't conducive. I have a feeling that once the T3 BB's are out and working, the dynamic will change again, and while the Domi won't simply fade into the shadows (unless Kali breaks it, whereupon let loose the gates of backlash), there'll be a new setup or two to fume about.
Just a few thoughts. Sorry for the rambling; I get carried away. 
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.05 03:53:00 -
[63]
If you see a Dominix, drop your nuts and run.
(not entirely true but just really felt like saying that ;s
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Wizie
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Posted - 2006.03.05 06:52:00 -
[64]
 Originally by: Xhieron
BUT, I noticed something in this argument that's very interesting to me. This isn't a straight, "X1 + X2 = Domi is overpowered," "X1 + X2 = Domi is fine" argument. From the looks of things (I've yet to be ganked by one), a NOS'ing drone-happy Domi is a force to be reckoned with inside 22-25 km. That's a fair conclusion. I think it's also fair to say that at sniping range, a Domi is basically a sitting duck. The argument doesn't hinge on the actual merits of the ship, or the situationality of its common fittings: it hinges on whether or not anti-Domi pilots can kill a Domi--and kill it within range to lock it down.
A Domi makes rather decent sniping ship since the nerfing of stacking mods.
2 RCU II, 3 mag stab IIs, 2 tracking enhancer IIs,
2 sensor booster IIs, tracking comp II and 2 free mods with 160+ of cpu left for to fit jamming/dampening/othergheyewmods
6 425 II railguns
I see nothing wrong with using the Domi for fleet fights at range. It would actually make a fine ship. And have the ability to travel solo to an extent due to its insane amount of drones for backup.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.03.05 15:30:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Bottled Brain
Sorry this is going a little bit offtopic:
I canŠt use it, but I donŠt know why everybody is so excited about barrage ammo.
It actually does nothing for your damage. Imo it actually reduces your damage because of the large falloff you forget about the drawbacks of falloff.
A large falloff is nice to kill smaller ships with uber tracking at the edge of falloff, thatŠs all.
But anything above 20% of falloff will reduce your damage drastically. Acs have to use falloff because they donŠt have enough tracking at optimal. But this doesnŠt mean itŠs good to use it extensively.
Against a dominix with a 3 hardener standard tank, barrage does a little bit less damage than emp.
Falloff is not a concern. It can be piloted around. If you use EMP you know it already has 50% reduced range. AC have good tracking at optimal, but not excellent. Especially the dual 425s. Though target painters or tracking computers do increase your damage since there is room for tracking improvement.
Anyway, I did the numbers and yes, EMP seems like a better choice against non-Minmatar ships.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Bottled Brain
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Posted - 2006.03.05 16:56:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Bottled Brain on 05/03/2006 16:56:40
Maybe I missunderstand you, but you canŠt get around the damage reduction of falloff by piloting, itŠs built-in.
On the first page of the tracking guide (the flash thingy) you will find exactly this problem:
"So the goal of every pilot is to find a range where the range penalty (= falloff) doesnŠt reduce the chance to hit by too much and the turret ist still able to track the target.
This is most important for projectile turrets due to their optimal range, huge falloff range and slow tracking speed."
I know this is mainly directed to artilleries but is also true for acs.
On the thrid page yo get this:
"As we have seen on the page about range penalties however a distance above the turretŠs optimal range will decrease the chance to hit."
I donŠt want to argue about the tracking, but two ships going in different directions produce insane transversal velocities of 300m/s + at close range.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.03.07 03:13:00 -
[67]
Well I always minimize transversal because everyone else's tracking is better than mine anyway.
For the record, just pounded on this guy in my new setup, along with a Friend in a Raven. Fight lasted about 4 minutes, result...Same.
Probably im just dumb for intending to go after him again. Kind of like still flying Minmatar after years of having inferior ships...
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.03.07 04:39:00 -
[68]
Drones has been boosted in RMR because it boosted their HP which made it impossible to kill drones with smartbomb as fast as pre-RMR.
To undo this unwanted and unasked for boost, just replace drones' HP bonuses (Domi bonus, Drone Interfacing bonus, Drones Durability bonus perhaps) with Signature Radius Reduction bonus. This way drones still can be killed fast with smartbomb, but targeting each and picking them with guns will get too long to be effective, just how it worked pre-RMR.
This way balance will return to pre-RMR state, and I don't remember as much whining about Domi pre-RMR as now.
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Don Elmus
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Posted - 2006.03.07 08:25:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
So I got killed by a dominix in my Tempest. I intend to get my revenge. He was using Berserker IIs. Which is nasty against a Tempest. I was using Dual 425mm T2 with Barrage T2 ammo.
First of all his drones hits were harder than my hits once we both started hitting armor. Not even considering the faster ROF of the drones.
Can a dominix field a set of drones, and still have a harder tank than a Tempest?
Obviously he was highly skilled, but my skills run pretty high too. We both used T2 equipment. Should I have shot the drones? Should I try smartbombs? though I think they would kill my poor cap.
my gun average was about 43
Drone average was about 65-70
These wrecks should be into armor:
Your Dual 425mm AutoCannon II perfectly strikes Enemy, wrecking for 115.5 damage.
Berserker II belonging to Enemy strikes you perfectly, wrecking for 204.7 damage.
I have to be honest. IN a tempest with a dual gun bonus I would expect to have harder hits than a Berserker II.
Tips/advice/ridicule?
Who was it - Schnuur ? He can be OutNossed
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Gudrodur
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Posted - 2006.03.07 08:47:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Gudrodur on 07/03/2006 08:47:53
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 07/03/2006 03:47:16
Well I always minimize transversal because everyone else's tracking is better than mine anyway.
Just lost again and I had a Raven with me. I got an idea though  (this is gettin expensive)
Well good fun again m8 
Well this time I actually had to use my second repairer too but nice try. Really looking forward to our next fight. 1 vs 3 anyone
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.03.07 09:28:00 -
[71]
I tried outgunning a domi long ago ;) , i think you have 2 options:
1-Run when you see them.
2-Fit racial jammers and jam is ass to oblivion .
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errorist
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Posted - 2006.03.07 11:01:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Zysco
Please orbit my domi at 25km with your tempest.
ehm that u can say easilly, if the domi has a mwd for example...or named nos that have a range of 25 km( i know i fly with the 24 km ones)
yes the domi has the advantage it dosent need to fitt specific modules and i can pretty much take on about any thing even if setup for 0.0 ratting
and there was 1 that said a megathron also could do the same thing a domi can.... that would never be a reality vs a domi since the domi would kill drones then tear the mega appart
If something is hard going, its not worth doing |
Schinoble
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Posted - 2006.03.07 11:33:00 -
[73]
arnt gallente meant to be the close range combat kings, or have i been reading all the ship information wrong.
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FawKa
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Posted - 2006.03.07 11:34:00 -
[74]
Heavy T2 drones has overcomed the dps of T2 guns.
and Thats it.
If he has, BS lvl 5, droner interfacing lvl 5, heavy drones lvl 5, gallente drone spec lvl 4 his drones will hit you 210% harder.
only thing is - the drone range isnt that far - if he dont use drone links
ECM's would work as some ppl said, but if he press attack before you ECM and ECM him after. The drones will keep killing you even if he cant lock you.
smartbombs as you said, but there is a cap problem, and would be ****ty if you meet an apoc instead of a Domi the next time, you cant kill him with a smartbomb after all.
and a Domi has room for 3 teams of 5x T2 heavy drones.
I dont know what you can do other than that. I'm flying domi myself as a drone specialist. If the domi tanks right, fits enough Nos' you will still have problems killing him.
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Joshua Deakin
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Posted - 2006.03.07 12:49:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Joshua Deakin on 07/03/2006 12:53:41
Originally by: Dexter Rast
give the domi only 2 high slots and then that would bring it into line, atm its the i-win button on soo many fronts, we even have potential sniper setups being discussed for it with the introduction of sentry drones ffs.
hom many other ships can fit a full range of weapons for any range while keeping a pretty bog standard setup.
nos, ecm, armor tank and a versatile and unmached arsenal with a compliment of various drones
It sounds like you've not used a Dom at all...
To get over 45km range with the sentrys you need to install one or more drone link augmentors, 20km range with each. With EW drone skills another 15km max. 45+20+20+15=100km range. And yes you need drone links to be able to engage targets further away, the 50+25 fallout with Wardens is useless until you can actually start shooting a distant target.
If many BS's use nos as a basic defence then the Dom pilot has only two high slots left for guns. Maximized dps with T2 Ogres is around 432. Compare that to a Raven fitted with torps and nos plus drones.... And then talk about high damage. The Dominix does "only" 33% more damage with drones, they are also a bit more durable, but can not get close to a Ravens damage output.
Oh and the thing about expandable drones... yeah over a million a pop with T2 heavys.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.03.07 14:09:00 -
[76]
Originally by: FawKa
smartbombs as you said, but there is a cap problem, and would be ****ty if you meet an apoc instead of a Domi the next time, you cant kill him with a smartbomb after all.
and a Domi has room for 3 teams of 5x T2 heavy drones.
that's why I suggest to nerf drone HP to pre-RMR state and give drones the signature radius reduction bonus instead. Smartbombs are supposed to be counter to drones, but with current HP it's much less so.
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.03.07 14:57:00 -
[77]
Damage output is not the problem. The problem is nothing is sacrificed to get this increadible output. The output that dwarfs a dual damage bonused Tempest...
The bottom line? T2 Drones are dumb. Whereas T2 ammo has all sorts of whacky drawbacks, T2 Drones is just pure increased damage AND increased tracking AND increased HP.
Makes me want to stop training for BS5, get the T2 Heavy drones and pull out my NosTyphoon...
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Derran
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Posted - 2006.03.07 15:49:00 -
[78]
I, for one, am glad drones are no longer a secondary weapon. But there is a way to beat that dominix. Hell, I can even tell you what equipment he had on it last week. It has lots of expensive crap on it.
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Zysco
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Posted - 2006.03.07 15:56:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Gudrodur
Edited by: Gudrodur on 07/03/2006 08:47:53
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 07/03/2006 03:47:16
Well I always minimize transversal because everyone else's tracking is better than mine anyway.
Just lost again and I had a Raven with me. I got an idea though (this is gettin expensive)
Well good fun again m8
Well this time I actually had to use my second repairer too but nice try. Really looking forward to our next fight. 1 vs 3 anyone
Yeah stop ******* with gudro, you should see how many solo bs kills he gets each day 
callon > I don't like traveling much, i think its cause my father used to beat me with a globe.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=300438New vid: "we're back |
Phlaago Rexor
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Posted - 2006.03.07 15:58:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Bottled Brain
Edited by: Bottled Brain on 05/03/2006 16:56:40
Maybe I missunderstand you, but you canŠt get around the damage reduction of falloff by piloting, itŠs built-in.
On the first page of the tracking guide (the flash thingy) you will find exactly this problem:
"So the goal of every pilot is to find a range where the range penalty (= falloff) doesnŠt reduce the chance to hit by too much and the turret ist still able to track the target.
This is most important for projectile turrets due to their optimal range, huge falloff range and slow tracking speed."
I know this is mainly directed to artilleries but is also true for acs.
On the thrid page yo get this:
"As we have seen on the page about range penalties however a distance above the turretŠs optimal range will decrease the chance to hit."
I donŠt want to argue about the tracking, but two ships going in different directions produce insane transversal velocities of 300m/s + at close range.
You have it all wrong... Barrage does equal damage to EMP but different damagetypes (no EM for example)
*at any range outside the optimal range you get with EMP ammo the barrage ammo will hit more often because it has better optimal range and much better falloff range.*
against a standard 3 hardener armortank I would say barrage is a better choice for any range except pointblank range (where gallente ships will tear you apart if they have blasters)
in other words... its the falloff range thats increased, not the falloff penalty.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.03.07 16:00:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 07/03/2006 16:02:08
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
Damage output is not the problem. The problem is nothing is sacrificed to get this increadible output. The output that dwarfs a dual damage bonused Tempest...
sacrificed is the longevity of this DPS. Because drones are SUPPOSED to be easily killable with smartbombs. It's an expendable DPS. So if they nerf drones' HP back to pre-RMR state (replacing with sig radius resolution reduction) things will return to normal. You will only need 1 or 2 smartbombs to pick them out. Just like it worked pre-RMR.
Quote:
The bottom line? T2 Drones are dumb. Whereas T2 ammo has all sorts of whacky drawbacks, T2 Drones is just pure increased damage AND increased tracking AND increased HP.
t2 drones has NOTHING to do with t2 ammo penalty because drones are NOT ammo, they are turrets. If you give them t2 ammo penalties, then you should also give them equivalent of t2 turrets with some additional bonuses which can also be used with t1 drones .. which sounds silly. Oh I have an idea - create t2 drone control units that t2 drones can be used with? :)
Quote:
Makes me want to stop training for BS5, get the T2 Heavy drones and pull out my NosTyphoon...
ha you make me stop wanting training for gal bs 5 too :) coz this amazing amount of domi whinnage will get it overnerfed eventually :(
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Severa Crest
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Posted - 2006.03.07 16:21:00 -
[82]
Been thinking about a domi-beating tempest. Fighting a nos ship time is against you so how about dropping the 2 nos and fitting siege launchers for extra damage, and maybe clearing a mid slot for a second cap booster ( a medium ). Havent done the math, likely to need low cpu mods if it fits at all.
Also would be a pain to carry the amount of cap charges you'd be using so logistically it'd suck anyway.
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Bottled Brain
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Posted - 2006.03.07 16:48:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Bottled Brain on 07/03/2006 16:48:50
Originally by: Phlaago Rexor
...
You have it all wrong... Barrage does equal damage to EMP but different damagetypes (no EM for example)
*at any range outside the optimal range you get with EMP ammo the barrage ammo will hit more often because it has better optimal range and much better falloff range.*
against a standard 3 hardener armortank I would say barrage is a better choice for any range except pointblank range (where gallente ships will tear you apart if they have blasters)
in other words... its the falloff range thats increased, not the falloff penalty.
Well, I wrote about the damage a few post above. Emp does 17.8 and barrage 17.2 against a dominix with 3 t1 hardeners.
dual 425mm t2 (20% of falloff used, skills lvl4)
emp: 3840 x 0.5 (emp penalty) x 1.2 (skill) + 16000 x 0.2 x 1.2 (skill) = 6144m
barrage: 3840 x 1.2 (skill) + 16000 x 0.2 x 1.2 (skill) x 1.5 (barrage bonus) = 10368m
What you get is whooping 4km more usable range. And yes maybe a little bit more damage due to better tracking (hit chances).
And this is really good enough for t2 ammo??, especially if you compare it to the damage of t2 drones (and the OP pointed out he had much less damage than his opponent despite using t2 ammo).
You canŠt use the 50% increased falloff because the falloff reduces your damage, so the apparent advantage of barrage ammo doesnt exist. (If you have ever seen a damage curve of acs you will see that a large falloff looks nice but doesnŠt do much because the damage gets too low further into falloff.)
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Junius
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Posted - 2006.03.07 21:56:00 -
[84]
well i was using a blasterthron.....so dont beat your self up
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:17:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
t2 drones has NOTHING to do with t2 ammo penalty because drones are NOT ammo, they are turrets. If you give them t2 ammo penalties, then you should also give them equivalent of t2 turrets with some additional bonuses which can also be used with t1 drones .. which sounds silly. Oh I have an idea - create t2 drone control units that t2 drones can be used with? :)
I don't care how you slice it. Why should 5xT2 drones outdamage 6xT2 autocannons?
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
jamesw
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:26:00 -
[86]
I just had a thought... fit some multispecs and jam his drones. That should reduce his dps 
--
Latest Vid: Bobbing for Xelas |
Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:40:00 -
[87]
He must have a lot of expensive gear on his domi to take on 2 BS and win... I know he could not take on ANY two bs :)...
Ison's notches |
jamesw
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Posted - 2006.03.07 23:43:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Isonkon Serikain
He must have a lot of expensive gear on his domi to take on 2 BS and win... I know he could not take on ANY two bs :)...
Actually its not that hard to do with EW the way it is. Jam one, tank+kill the other. Pretty simple to be honest.
--
Latest Vid: Bobbing for Xelas |
Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2006.03.08 00:03:00 -
[89]
well if ew was involved, then 2 ships jamming him could do it as well...
Ison's notches |
Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.03.08 02:23:00 -
[90]
Originally by: jamesw
I just had a thought... fit some multispecs and jam his drones. That should reduce his dps
Thats a definite thought. Especially if he can't tell they are jammed. However, drones are not listing sensor strength so its questionable. The 'insta-lock' that we always attribute to drones is just our logical excuse for the reason ECM burst does not work on them. I wouldn't be surprised if ECM did not work on them either.
Even then, I can jam maybe 1 drone. Drop his damage by 20%, and he will still outdamage and out tank me. Im gonna have to look at the paper numbers because im sure CCP at least checked the paper numbers. I will be disappointed if t2 drones outdamage t2 autocannons on paper as well.
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
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