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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.03.03 12:57:00 -
[1]
Ok in order to help some players out. There was a big discussion on Hacs vs Battleships.
Now me personaly with my experience know that most of my hac's can't stand a chance solo to a decent pvp battleship + pilot. My little Vagabond with be eaten by heavy nos and all types of mean battleship stuff. Sometimes however I can eat a battleship pretty easy. Like you know when they're NPCing or there is 5 of me in hacs too haha.
So the question was "Can Hacs always smack battleships solo". TO my suprize a lot of people said yes. That and followed up with "Hacs can fit heavy nos". So what do you think if you're a hac pilot who pvp's. Do you fear a pvp pilot in a battleship or do you lay the smackdown on all solo battleship engagements you do?
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Pottsey
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:01:00 -
[2]
I have never come across a HAC that could even dint my battleships let alone kill it 1v1, even when I am in PvE gear. I donÆt believe even a HABC could hurt a decently setup battleship.
There are plenty of HACÆs that can last against battleships, but those matchÆs end up a draw as the HAC cannot kill the BS.
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Justice Bringer
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:06:00 -
[3]
What Pottsey said.
Owner of both a Dominix and an Eos so speaking form a point of some considerable knowledge.
Justice 
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:06:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 03/03/2006 13:06:52
I'd be very confident of taking on 3 or 4 HAC in my Dominix at once.
And still winning.
HAC's are totally over-rated and hurt too much when you lose one.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:10:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Pottsey
I have never come across a HAC that could even dint my battleships let alone kill it 1v1, even when I am in PvE gear. I donÆt believe even a HABC could hurt a decently setup battleship.
There are plenty of HACÆs that can last against battleships, but those matchÆs end up a draw as the HAC cannot kill the BS.
QTF. there is no hac in game that could beat my BS 1vs1. AN ishtar with ECM may have a chance but even then i think id won most times.
HABC are different, they are able to do a lot more damage and take a bit more, i would think a good HABC vs BS would be a very very close fight [assumeing no ecm is used, if it is then the HABC doesnt have a chance]
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:12:00 -
[6]
Very true indeed. I have no dout in my mind any solo pvp setup battleship would kill me in my hac. Sofar it seems going battleship is more cost effeciant to use in PVP other than the suggested HAC that was argued for pvp over a battleship. I still have no clue why 80% of the people keep saying hacs eat battleship even solo or even in some cases 3 on 1. It's like saying my assault frigate can push out enough DPS to kill a zealot tank. Which is not happening :P
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Exogene
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:16:00 -
[7]
I have seen, pre-RMR, a Vagabond tanking 3 battleships and a couple of BCs (pvp). He managed to kill a BC before he had to warp out, he did make it out alive and didn't get caught. 
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Kaleeb
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:21:00 -
[8]
Well it depends on setups as all fights do. E.g a blasterthron with no heavy nos being orbited by a HAC at 18km or so is going to die unless it can jump through gate etc. Same as a tempest/apoc/thron with beams/rails/howlies will die to a close range HAC.
HAC's have their uses e.g small wolf packs roaming hostile space, but bs's are far more useful in a standup fight.
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HUGO DRAX
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:22:00 -
[9]
Yet they still sell for 150+ mill (The gallente HACS)
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Numskull
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:26:00 -
[10]
Well it's a bit of a simplistic question really, but basically it depends on what BS and what HAC.
But yes, a HAC can easily take out a BS. As a poster above mentioned there are lots of factors, in particular I'd say EW and range. Some of the HACs can now be insane snipers, and if you're setup for close range (e.g. a pulse apoc) then you can be screwed.
Personally I'd always prefer a HAC for PVP than a BS, because whereas a HAC can't always take out a BS, it is by far the most versatile PVP ship class IMHO. Remember as well, that a HAC warping into a battleship that it can't fight will most likely get out in time. A BS warping into a HAC that it can't beat will most likely not be able to warp out again, so the HAC is the preferable for solo IMHO.
So can a HAC always down a BS? No
Can a BS always down a HAC? No
Can a HAC stand a chance of downing a BS? Absolutely.
Which ship would I prefer for solo PVP? HAC
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Romulus Maximus
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:31:00 -
[11]
There is no definitive answer to this.
It really depends on too much. Not too long ago a corp mate took down a Mach in an ishtar. And thats by no means the first or last solo hac v bs kill ill see.
Hacs tend to be setup pretty similar regardless of what there doing. BS are very dependant.My solo BS fit is nothing like my Fleet. And my small gang is nothing like the other 2.
Solo a Hac wouldnt worry me so much. If i got caught in my fleet setup alone, id pretty much be toast.
On any given sunday. Most ships can win against most ships. IIRC, a Taranis also solo killed a bs not too long ago on our KB. Really does depend what is fitted.
Niether ship will ever replace the other. They both serve purposes. I hate bs,but i need ot fly them sometimes.
A hac gang can roam quite quickly,causing massive damage.
A bs gang is somewhat slower.
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Slaphead
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:34:00 -
[12]
Famine,
I shall keep my post civil, no matter how uncivil the contributions you made to this discussion using an alt in noob corp chat.
The comment you made that many disagreed with was "[ 2006.03.03 12:25:30 ] Pestilence Aligher'ri > BS can smack any hac solo". You claimed that any BS can take out any HAC. This is simply untrue and inaccurate. As highlighted above, it's much more complicated than that.
I stand by my comment that no, ANY BS cannot take out ANY HAC, unless it's very specifically fitted.
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Techyon
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:34:00 -
[13]
It depends entirely upon the circumstances.
A properly setup close range BS will kill a hac in any engagement unless the hac is specificly equiped with racial ecm or something.
There are HACs with a high enough damage output to break a BS tank(dual L rep for example) but they'll take some time to do it and are quite vulnerable to things like drones, nos and webbers. Not much HAC's can really take BS firepower straight in the face, they'll die miserably most of the time. That's because the resistances are nice but most hacs just don't have the amount of armor/shield nor the rep capacity to really tank serious dmg.
Like the guy somewhere above me said... it all depends on fittings.
HACs can kill bs solo if the fittin is in the HACs advantage or they can evade being
pinned down and crushed.
HACs are better for a support role... they have quite some firepower and can tip a fight to your advantage quickly if used right.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:37:00 -
[14]
If you don't have nos and the HAC can shoot past 15km, there's a damn good chance the BS will die, except if against a dominix (omgdrones) and raven (omgt2cruise).
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StraWDog
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Posted - 2006.03.03 13:58:00 -
[15]
I cant understand why everyone say that a gang of HACS is a fast or at least faster moving gang that roams etc etc the HACS except from vagabond move like **** hte AF are moving like cripled.
A hac is not MUCH faster and more agile than a bs both are slow ships the hacs are a bit more agile and can warp a bit quicker but for no reason they are not a fast agile unit. with around 170m/s where a bs has round 140m/s i would not refer to hacs as much faster than a bs 
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Sarmaul
If you don't have nos and the HAC can shoot past 15km, there's a damn good chance the BS will die, except if against a dominix (omgdrones) and raven (omgt2cruise).
That sums it up pretty well.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: StraWDog
I cant understand why everyone say that a gang of HACS is a fast or at least faster moving gang that roams etc etc the HACS except from vagabond move like **** hte AF are moving like cripled.
A hac is not MUCH faster and more agile than a bs both are slow ships the hacs are a bit more agile and can warp a bit quicker but for no reason they are not a fast agile unit. with around 170m/s where a bs has round 140m/s i would not refer to hacs as much faster than a bs
Vagabond goes over 3km/s on a mwd, deimos 1800m/s while a megathron goes 1200 or so. They warp way way faster, and turn on a dime compaired to BS.
AFs are slow compaired to frigs, HACs aren't compaired to cruisers.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: StraWDog
I cant understand why everyone say that a gang of HACS is a fast or at least faster moving gang that roams etc etc the HACS except from vagabond move like **** hte AF are moving like cripled.
A hac is not MUCH faster and more agile than a bs both are slow ships the hacs are a bit more agile and can warp a bit quicker but for no reason they are not a fast agile unit. with around 170m/s where a bs has round 140m/s i would not refer to hacs as much faster than a bs
because very few battleships have setups that demand the use of an afterburner or mwd, while on a HAC they are pretty much compulsory. go on a hac raid with no instas and compare it to a BS raid with no instas :)
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Skyblue
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:15:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: StraWDog
I cant understand why everyone say that a gang of HACS is a fast or at least faster moving gang that roams etc etc the HACS except from vagabond move like **** hte AF are moving like cripled.
A hac is not MUCH faster and more agile than a bs both are slow ships the hacs are a bit more agile and can warp a bit quicker but for no reason they are not a fast agile unit. with around 170m/s where a bs has round 140m/s i would not refer to hacs as much faster than a bs
Vagabond goes over 3km/s on a mwd, deimos 1800m/s while a megathron goes 1200 or so. They warp way way faster, and turn on a dime compaired to BS.
AFs are slow compaired to frigs, HACs aren't compaired to cruisers.
vagabond goes about 2700m/s with domination mwd without nanos
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Tredge
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:17:00 -
[20]
Ok I'm fairly new to the game but I've studied HAC's vs Battleships with quickfit extensively......Disclaimer: no substitute for real battles.
Most of you have listed NOS as the HAC killer.....but setting up a HAC vulnerable to Nos when fighting a Battleship is suicide isnt it?
I'm supprised at Pottsey esp with her preference for passive shield tank setups...I would have thought she would be all over the ishtar as the battleship killer :)
From testing, the ishtar passive shield tanked (so that it doesnt depend on cap at all) vastly out-tanks a dominix.
With its supperior speed, tanking, and similar dps with drones it should always win against anything other than an ecm ship which I still doubt has the 1vs1 dps to kill it.
Pottsey please educate me :) And I'd be very curious to see your current domi set-up.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:17:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Skyblue
vagabond goes about 2700m/s with domination mwd without nanos
3095m/s according to quickfit.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tredge
Ok I'm fairly new to the game but I've studied HAC's vs Battleships with quickfit extensively......Disclaimer: no substitute for real battles.
Most of you have listed NOS as the HAC killer.....but setting up a HAC vulnerable to Nos when fighting a Battleship is suicide isnt it?
I'm supprised at Pottsey esp with her preference for passive shield tank setups...I would have thought she would be all over the ishtar as the battleship killer :)
From testing, the ishtar passive shield tanked (so that it doesnt depend on cap at all) vastly out-tanks a dominix.
With its supperior speed, tanking, and similar dps with drones it should always win against anything other than an ecm ship which I still doubt has the 1vs1 dps to kill it.
Pottsey please educate me :) And I'd be very curious to see your current domi set-up.
the thing is, there are exactly 2 hacs that can be setup to be "immune" to NOS: passive ishtar and passive cerb. every other hac needs cap for it's primary weapons systems. A passive-tanked vagabond is the next-best thing, but it still needs cap for it's guns.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:20:00 -
[23]
To be honest both ships have their roles and how effective one is really comes down to the ships and setups, pilots skills and your positioning on the battlefield.
Right now I feel the situation between HACS and BS are very good and well balanced. Both have their roles in pvp with good and bad points.
Please please please devs, don't release a heavy assault battleships that's just a BS version of the HAC, despite the fact it will cost alot (not a major issue for some people these days) it will be a 1 man "omgwtfbbq" mobile and through the balance completely off.
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:23:00 -
[24]
WTB: Deimos setup that doesn't need cap! 10isk
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The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:45:00 -
[25]
One issue everyone seems to be glossing over like it doesnt matter (but it really DOES):
Lose a HAC and you lose over 100m ISK.
Lose a BS and you just lose the insurance money.
Thats why a BS wins every time in PvP, for me at least. I don't care how rich people claim to be, no PvPer is going to be able to sustain HAC losses, but quite a few could sustain BS losses. I know I can and I'm by no means rich.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Butter Dog
One issue everyone seems to be glossing over like it doesnt matter (but it really DOES):
Lose a HAC and you lose over 100m ISK.
Lose a BS and you just lose the insurance money.
Thats why a BS wins every time in PvP, for me at least. I don't care how rich people claim to be, no PvPer is going to be able to sustain HAC losses, but quite a few could sustain BS losses. I know I can and I'm by no means rich.
unless your alliance sells them cheap and you can pick them up for just over the base price.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.03.03 14:59:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 03/03/2006 15:03:18
Originally by: Slaphead
Famine,
I stand by my comment that no, ANY BS cannot take out ANY HAC, unless it's very specifically fitted.
I just want to clarify
Slaphead > HAC's can fit heavy nos
So if you say stuff like this then you really shouldn't have any play in the convo or anything pvp related. On a serious note, pilots make the ship. So yeah HAC can defeat a battleship however, Battleships do have the upper hand and should have NO problem defeating any hac. Even with common pvp setups.
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Butter Dog
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Posted - 2006.03.03 15:18:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 03/03/2006 15:03:18
Originally by: Slaphead
Famine,
I stand by my comment that no, ANY BS cannot take out ANY HAC, unless it's very specifically fitted.
I just want to clarify
Slaphead > HAC's can fit heavy nos
So if you say stuff like this then you really shouldn't have any play in the convo or anything pvp related. On a serious note, pilots make the ship. So yeah HAC can defeat a battleship however, Battleships do have the upper hand and should have NO problem defeating any hac. Even with common pvp setups.
I agree with what the OP just said. Slaphead, it would take a truly TERRIBLE battleship pilot to lose to a single HAC when in a standard PvP fitting.
In fact I took down a HAC the other day while tanking the rest of his 8 man gang.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.03.03 15:25:00 -
[29]
yepyep, HAC's don't suck though. Very good ships that can do a lot of things as a wingman to a battleship. Just not as much as everyone thinks. I would rather just fly a cruiser instead of playing that insane price of a HAC plus fittings. I think that pretty much summed it up though.
Battleships are a good way to go still. Training them up and using them in pvp is still good on your wallet in most cases now a days. So to all the new pilots who are being told to skip battleship and do all HAC. Don't listen. HAC's are just another toy to play with that can do a number of great things but not something you want to rush into first.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.03 15:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Gronsak
stuff
omg PH are allowed to fly hacs now?!?! 
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