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Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 01:41:00 - [1] I don't understand why everyone says you need uber skills to be good in a tempest. I have never flown one but I have a made good setup on quickfit using many level 4 skills but none at level five except for the obvious engineering, electronics and gunnery. All other important skills at level 4 I can still have this setup Highs 6x Scout arty cannons Still enough pg for a cruise missile or a med nos(can you nos drones because in description some have a large cap capacity??) mids Em ward hardener thermal hardener Xl shield booster Tracking comp t2 target painter or sensor booster lows 3x cap relay t2's(are those seeded) 2x t2 gyrostabs 1x t2 damage control(those are useful if you dont want to lose 150 mil worth of stuff+ higher resists) What are your opinions on this setup. Should I use a T2 large shield booster instead? Btw my damge modifier on the scouts is 13.85 and a rof of 11 seconds.If you really want 3 gyro stabs sacrifice a cap relay instead, but the damage control stays. And please dont tell me if you cant afford to lose don't but because no matter how much money you have losing 150 mil is a big deal. Can You please post what your damage modifiers are and rof as well as relative skills. Is this good enough to be frank?
Sincere MarkXIII	Posted - 2006.03.05 01:45:00 - [2] cap relays lower your shield boosting : do not fit cap relays on shieldtankers. fit pdu II's instead. good rule of thumb is to not fly what you can't afford to lose as in : if you get popped, can you shrug it off and immediately replace it two or three times?
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.05 02:01:00 - [3] why Tempest needs alot of sp to be effective: can both shield and armour tank (need respective skills) you need very good gunnery skills for arty otherwise they'll suck majorly btw 5-7 mill gunnery i'd say you will need adv. weapon upgrades 4 or 5 BS lvl 5 is important add the normal required fitting/cap skills throw in some drone skills as well not saying that the Tempest sucks if you dont have all that stuff, you'll do oke but i wouldnt say good the Tempest is probably the most skill intensive BS, ironically in terms of sp needs it may only be topped by the typhoon Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 02:08:00 - [4] Damn it didn't see the shield boosting penalty on the thing. I thought it was shield regeneration penalty. Can't fit the pds's without a co-proc or putting on a t2 large shield booster. Which isn't bad because the pds give me the grid to fit 2 heavy nos. What I really want to know is if logistic drones actually have a lot of cap in the game and can you nos them?? Please remember to post opinions on skillsa and damage modifiers/rof.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.05 02:11:00 - [5] concerning the setup, its bad and you use stuff that isnt ingame, like t2 cap power relay (which NO shield tanker would ever equip) t2 damage control ( pdu2 >> damage controls btw) what is this setup for anyway? pvp? dont tank pve? use rat specific hardeners, do you expect to nos rats from 100 km or do you think you'll hit anything below 20 km? besides ratting with 1400 gotta be masochism Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 02:21:00 - [6] Yes Bs level 5 is good to have but is it worth a month of training? All it does is give .5 extra damage modifier and a second less on your rof. And if you know if you know your not going to shield tank you don't need skills in both. Why would you need 5-7 million skill points in gunnery. To get from maybe 1 million to 5 million sp would be going from level 4 rapid fire,large projectiles,surgical strike and sharpshooter to all of those level 5. And I dont' see what the point of going t2 is. For those two other crappy types of ammo train 6 mil sp? Forgive me if I'm being ignorant but I want someone with thos 6 il sp to post their damage modifier and rof to see exactly what the difference is.
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 02:32:00 - [7] No I would put the nos if I could suck cap from my drones, READ the damn post before you go insulting me! I know nosing drones sounds dumb but I want to know if it is possible And I changed the relays to pds in another post. Why not tank and gank? I dont expect to be fighting inties, which is another reason the nos is useful, I expect to kill Bs's. So I dont need to be 100km out because a Bs will never get close enough if I'm 70 km away.Even with an mwd , which would be dumb. It would take them to long and they wont have enough cap. Therefore a sensorbooster would be useless.
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 02:36:00 - [8] Arty are really useful in fleet or so I have heard and ratting which you have already said.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.03.05 03:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Matrices Reborn Yes Bs level 5 is good to have but is it worth a month of training? All it does is give .5 extra damage modifier and a second less on your rof. And if you know if you know your not going to shield tank you don't need skills in both. Why would you need 5-7 million skill points in gunnery. To get from maybe 1 million to 5 million sp would be going from level 4 rapid fire,large projectiles,surgical strike and sharpshooter to all of those level 5. And I dont' see what the point of going t2 is. For those two other crappy types of ammo train 6 mil sp? Forgive me if I'm being ignorant but I want someone with thos 6 il sp to post their damage modifier and rof to see exactly what the difference is. Lets put it this way m8... Without BS lvl 5 you might aswell be flying a cyclone because a cyclone with similar SP investment would make a better ship than the tempest except when in fleet combat and/or using officer loot. No ther Battleship needs lvl 5 but the Tempest most certainly does. If not... fly a cyclone or a vamphoon. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
RUNYOUFOOLS	Posted - 2006.03.05 09:01:00 - [10] minne bs 5 large arty spec 5 other gunnery skills Rapid fire s/stike etc 5 T2 1400mms 0 damn mods Damage mod : 13.63828125 x Rof : 12.76 sec 1 Damage mod 15.002109375 x 11.42 sec 2 Damage mods 16.3059726762 x 10.38 sec 3 Damage mods 17.236363991 x 9.75 sec 4 Damage mods 17.7240757937 x 9.46 sec note this is to the op. I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them?
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 12:06:00 - [11] Im still kinda of not understanding how with"low" skills you should get a cyclone. It doesn't have a damage bonus, and can't use large ammo. I'll accept the fact that you need tons of skills but why? I'm only going to use it for ratting and fleet eventually when I can buy one.
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.03.05 12:42:00 - [12] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 05/03/2006 12:44:20 These people are either elitist PvPers or anal perfectionists. I do not know what you want to do with your Tempest, but I used one for lvl4 missions with only the obvious skills at 5 (Gunnery, Eng, Mech) and the other relevant skills mostly only at 3 (Battleship, Large Projectile, gunnery support skills, tanking skills for both shield and armor). And I run into next to no problems soloing all lvl4s (By now in a Machariel but still only Battleship 3 and large proj 3), it works like a charm. Most certainly MUCH better than a Cyclone. So don't get discouraged, the relevant skills at lvl3 is more than enough to make good use of a battleship at least for PvE. And seeing how most PvP combat is decided before it even started, a few percent more here and there will not make that big a difference there either. Knowing what you are doing is much more important in PvP than all skills at lvl5... Imho that you need a ton of lvl5 skills to properly fly a battleship is just a myth. Oddly enough one fed by many many people for whatever reason. One odd high SP skill that made using the Tempest as Sniper a lot easier was Trajectory Analysis 4 in order to use Tracking Computer IIs. Other than that, I snipe fine with lvl3 skills. ___________________________________ Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?
Santiac	Posted - 2006.03.05 12:50:00 - [13] While i can see that higher investments regarding gunnery and Minmatar BS would be good for your temp/phoon, i still think piloting experience is more important. If you dont know how to kit your ship or how to take advantages of it's good sides, it will never matter how many skillpoints you can bring for the measureing contest with the other boys in the locker room. ________________________________________ <insert clever/witty comment here>
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 13:04:00 - [14] Edited by: Matrices Reborn on 05/03/2006 13:05:37 Even I think level 3 for gunnery skills is kind of low. But If you say you could handle level 4 easily than I guess I will do better with level 4 skills. Imho I don't dont think you need to be so skill intensive. Can someone post how long it takes to train these skills up if engineering takes 6 days. I can't recall my attributes exactly. And would it be worth training up my learning skills. I don't know if want to spend an extra month and a half training up medium,small projectiles and sharpshooter to level 5 just for t2 ammo. tbh I don't want to train any skills to levle 5 that have a training time multiplier of 5 and 8. I believe those would take more than a month. AND CAN YOU NOS DRONES??
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 14:09:00 - [15] More Posts on average damage and skills please.
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.03.05 14:21:00 - [16] Edited by: Grimpak on 05/03/2006 14:22:35 Originally by: Matrices Reborn More Posts on average damage and skills please. lvl4 (where appliable) skills on armourtanking/shieldtanking/cap/projectile/missile/drones/navigation/electronics is considered average. The good minmatar pilot needs to have most of those skills at lvl5 to be an efective fighter tho. As for damage, since the long range proj guns are aplha-strike based, the bigger dmg mod you get the better. As for AC's, dmg mod is important but also is the RoF of the gun. ---------------- Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.03.05 16:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 05/03/2006 12:44:20 These people are either elitist PvPers or anal perfectionists. I do not know what you want to do with your Tempest, but I used one for lvl4 missions with only the obvious skills at 5 (Gunnery, Eng, Mech) and the other relevant skills mostly only at 3 (Battleship, Large Projectile, gunnery support skills, tanking skills for both shield and armor). And I run into next to no problems soloing all lvl4s (By now in a Machariel but still only Battleship 3 and large proj 3), it works like a charm. Most certainly MUCH better than a Cyclone. So don't get discouraged, the relevant skills at lvl3 is more than enough to make good use of a battleship at least for PvE. And seeing how most PvP combat is decided before it even started, a few percent more here and there will not make that big a difference there either. Knowing what you are doing is much more important in PvP than all skills at lvl5... Imho that you need a ton of lvl5 skills to properly fly a battleship is just a myth. Oddly enough one fed by many many people for whatever reason. One odd high SP skill that made using the Tempest as Sniper a lot easier was Trajectory Analysis 4 in order to use Tracking Computer IIs. Other than that, I snipe fine with lvl3 skills. While knowing how to use your tools is important... I don't think you can really comment on how hight sp on a tempest works. You haven't seen the mountain so don't comment on the mountain. And I have BC 5... and BS 5. I know what a cyclone is capable at with less skill investment than a tempest with low SP. I have an alt with Amarr BS 3, Minny BS 3 and Gal BS 3 and all the gunnery skills at lvl 3 so I disagree with you and have reasons why. There is nothing that character can do that my main cannot do making the alt look like a fool doing. And for lvl 4 missions... on low SP my Stats for a tempest would make your Mach look like a typhoon. Sorry... you really can't convince me having BS 5 and tech 2 guns is elitist. Any BS can come up with a good lvl 4 setup... I would hardly call that onto the jury stand when considering this game is balanced for PVP. Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 20:38:00 - [18] Why do you need t2 guns? To me the ammo that cut your range in half but increases damage sucks because you are going to die at that range because you cant track for crap at that range. I'm thinkin just train up BS,Largeprojectile and surg. strike to 5 while other stuff is at level 4. I don't thik t2 ammo is worth an extra month of training. For the long range ammo I don't plan on sniping from 200 km away and I won't need to for killing other Bs's because a BS is a slug. LArge artillery specialization is useful but once again not worth the extra month of training. Can someone post what your damage modifier looks like with the surg. 5,large projectiles 5 and Bs 5 without the specialization. AND CAN YOU NOS DRONES?? this is not a rhetorical question
schurem	Posted - 2006.03.05 22:32:00 - [19] yes you can nos drones. you can nos em to deat heven, but tat is besides te point of tis thread, which is the old high sp elite specialists vs the newb generalist debate fought over again. i'm rooting for the generalists btw :) <<<< No Boundaries, No Fences, Fly Free Or Die Trying >>>> Typhoon for the win. Nastier than whats faster, faster than whats nastier!
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.05 22:42:00 - [20] t2 guns get the dmg bonus from the large artillery specialization skill which atlvl 5 gives 10 %, thats why you use t2 guns and for pvp the the t2 ammos rock Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
SengH	Posted - 2006.03.05 22:42:00 - [21] Originally by: Matrices Reborn Why do you need t2 guns? To me the ammo that cut your range in half but increases damage sucks because you are going to die at that range because you cant track for crap at that range. I'm thinkin just train up BS,Largeprojectile and surg. strike to 5 while other stuff is at level 4. I don't thik t2 ammo is worth an extra month of training. For the long range ammo I don't plan on sniping from 200 km away and I won't need to for killing other Bs's because a BS is a slug. LArge artillery specialization is useful but once again not worth the extra month of training. Can someone post what your damage modifier looks like with the surg. 5,large projectiles 5 and Bs 5 without the specialization. AND CAN YOU NOS DRONES?? this is not a rhetorical question keep thinking that till you get nailed by Quake L for a 3.3k dmg wrecking shot. Theoretically a very lucky machariel/tempest pilot with domination gyros could 1 volley a BS.
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 22:55:00 - [22] Originally by: SengH Originally by: Matrices Reborn Why do you need t2 guns? To me the ammo that cut your range in half but increases damage sucks because you are going to die at that range because you cant track for crap at that range. I'm thinkin just train up BS,Largeprojectile and surg. strike to 5 while other stuff is at level 4. I don't thik t2 ammo is worth an extra month of training. For the long range ammo I don't plan on sniping from 200 km away and I won't need to for killing other Bs's because a BS is a slug. LArge artillery specialization is useful but once again not worth the extra month of training. Can someone post what your damage modifier looks like with the surg. 5,large projectiles 5 and Bs 5 without the specialization. AND CAN YOU NOS DRONES?? this is not a rhetorical question keep thinking that till you get nailed by Quake L for a 3.3k dmg wrecking shot. Theoretically a very lucky machariel/tempest pilot with domination gyros could 1 volley a BS. Arent you frogetting that t2 ammo is only good against armor. ACtually Ill be laughing as the guy with quake L can't reach me. I suppose you could load out half with quake and some with phased plasma but that would be retarded because you would have different ranges for different guns. I ve proved that one t2 ammo sucks and I'm not going to snipe with the other which is only good against armor. BTW I'm sure specialization is useful but 1 more on the damge modifier isn't worth one month of training or more.
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.03.05 22:59:00 - [23] Quote: There is nothing that character can do that my main cannot do making the alt look like a fool doing. And for lvl 4 missions... on low SP my Stats for a tempest would make your Mach look like a typhoon. Sorry... you really can't convince me having BS 5 and tech 2 guns is elitist. No, of course having those skills is not elitist, and of course your high skill Tempest will make my mediorce skill Machariel look like crap. What is elitist is people telling everyone that you absolutely NEED to have all skills at lvl5 to properly use a Battleship. You most definitely do not. And though I like my Cyclone a lot, there is no way it can approach a Tempests performance even at higher skill levels. Even if it is just because it simply cannot shoot as far... (Lower dps and worse tanking too...) And please bear in mind that proper use for most people is NOT only PvP but also PvE (or even mainly PvE). ___________________________________ Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?
HadHaFangs	Posted - 2006.03.05 23:15:00 - [24] T2 Projectiles = Better ROF and base DMG Mod = More over all damage with T1 ammo
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.03.05 23:21:00 - [25] T2 having better ROF and better base damage mod than the best named T1? Where? ___________________________________ Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?
Matrices Reborn	Posted - 2006.03.05 23:24:00 - [26] Originally by: HadHaFangs T2 Projectiles = Better ROF and base DMG Mod = More over all damage with T1 ammo You don't get a better rof if you just use scouts. And another thing I didn't think about was the lvl 5 for adv. weapons upgrades and sharpshooter 5 for t2 beacause of more pg usage. There is a slight difference in damage mod. but for last time not worth 2 months of training. I can also rat against multi-million isk Bs spawns for a couple weeks and make 300 mil+ and spend that on implants instead of training for two months. There is the disadvantage of losing them when podded though. I won't be able to use the sucky t2 ammo but I'll close the gap between damage mod.
xaioguai	Posted - 2006.03.05 23:26:00 - [27] 1400 tempest is good only at alpha strike. imho, without 17 damage mod, its not worth fitting 1400s. the way of using it is to kill before they come too close. but while you do full shield tanking with 1400s, you will get mostly miss below 30km and your range won't be too impressive either. at the end, your hit area will be very narrow (area between 60km-40km)and yet with 13 damage mod and 11 rof, you can hardly kill an approaching BS or cruisers. I think it may be better if you do full shield tanking with 1200s, they sux, but with better tracking and less fitting req, may work better with full shield tank and no tracking computers.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.05 23:34:00 - [28] Matrices you have already your opinion, go rat with 1400's you havent been in fleetbattles you prolly have never pvped with an arty tempest, otherwise you'd know why t2 guns are great and why the t2 ammo is of use you dont need 30 million skillpoints to fly a tempest and kill stuff, but dont expect it to perform that well with 6 mill sp or less. being able to kill stuff doesnt mean its good, its about the efficency, even with good skills i wouldnt recommend ratting with 1400 >_> but plz go out there and get some experiences yourself with a tempest Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Vyanna Mal	Posted - 2006.03.05 23:39:00 - [29] Out of curiousity, what shhould be trained first? Large Proj to level V or the BattleShip skill to level V?
Rexy	Posted - 2006.03.05 23:41:00 - [30] i'd get large proj V first, t2 ammo is quite nice. also skill takes a bit less time then bs lvl5. bs lvl5 is very much worth it though

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