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Nicolai Serkanner
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
33
   |
Posted - 2013.12.14 23:40:00 -
[31] - Quote
A game producer makes a game ... to make money. Unbelievable! |
Alexis Machine
24
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 00:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nicolai Serkanner wrote:A game producer makes a game ... to make money. Unbelievable!
It's perfectly fine to make money off of your hard work; but despite popular opinion, greed is not good.
Personally, micro-transaction games make me feel like the company is trying to nickel & dime me to death. It's like getting your electric bill and seeing 50 dollars worth of "franchise fees" and "licensing fees" and "city tax" and "county tax" and "technology fee" and "nuclear power plant construction fee".... doesn't that kinda **** you off? That's how it makes me feel. 
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
3423
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 00:40:00 -
[33] - Quote
Paying cash for a jaunty new cap is not pay to win.
Think about that next time you people insist on equating the two. There is nothing wrong in the least with having micro transactions for non gameplay items.
In fact, you should encourage it as it supplies much needed cash for development.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Bel Amar
Rules of Acquisition
Acquisition Of Empire
49
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 01:05:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sulliva Slake wrote:buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W
In the strictest sense, this is true. But it's not true in the traditional sense of the phrase Pay to Win.
A pay to win game lets you buy/create/expedite something with real cash, that is then just magiced in to the game. It scales linearly without regard.
EVE doesn't work like that. When you convert plex to isk and buy something with the isk, whether it's an item or a character, someone, somewhere had to put time and effort in to making the thing you're buying. Which means that you're simply re-adjusting the assets and items in the game world.
Yes, you personally might be better off than you were, but someone else is now worse off. And unlike in traitional p2w games, the game itself isn't any different on a large scale. The names of the owners have changed, and nothing more. Nothing was created out of nothing. |
Trixie Rocks
Captains Club
8
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 02:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Sulliva Slake wrote:
buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W
Wrong. First of all, a high-skilled toon in the hands of someone unfamiliar with EVE is not going to win squat. Second, you can't win EVE.
Really?
How can you even support that statement?
It takes about 6 years to skill a 100SP character or longer, and it would take maybe a month of Plex spending PVP action to learn how to use it... this game is on the very top of P2W games.
The only reason that it really doesn't matter for PVP is because it's mostly gang war anyways and there is no true Player Vs Player contest to be had in this game ATM. So a Bling ship means nothing for PVP because the buyer of the bling ship has no where to use it in a fair contest.
P2W is only relative to PVE in this game, but to even argue the points is just silly! |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:12:00 -
[36] - Quote
Bel Amar wrote:Sulliva Slake wrote:buy plex + buy a char with said plex = P2W In the strictest sense, this is true. But it's not true in the traditional sense of the phrase Pay to Win. A pay to win game lets you buy/create/expedite something with real cash, that is then just magiced in to the game. It scales linearly without regard. EVE doesn't work like that. When you convert plex to isk and buy something with the isk, whether it's an item or a character, someone, somewhere had to put time and effort in to making the thing you're buying. Which means that you're simply re-adjusting the assets and items in the game world. Yes, you personally might be better off than you were, but someone else is now worse off. And unlike in traitional p2w games, the game itself isn't any different on a large scale. The names of the owners have changed, and nothing more. Nothing was created out of nothing.
So basically people with lots of money pay other people minimum wage to do all the hard work while they sit back and sip champagne on their yachts.
Kind of like real life.
Well just like in real life, its not an equivalent exchange. The people who hold the money hold the power. They have a limited resource and they make other people work for that resource while often doing little of value to earn their wealth in the first place (trust funds, inheritance, stock market, usury).
No matter how much isk you make in game, you cannot create a PLEX without real money so you are dependent on people to use their real cash to do so.
Therefore people who spend the real money have the advantage over people who don't resulting in people working less than minimum wage to earn their monthly PLEX.
I'm not saying the system doesn't work just like in real life. Hell I enjoy profits from the stock market without doing little work of intrinsic value.
I am just saying its silly to say that people who spend cash on the game have no advantage over people that don't.
It means they spend less time earning isk and more time spending it. They can easily replace their losses while other people have to go back and mine, rat, and mission for a few hours to earn their money. Sure their are exceptions to this, but the majority of the players spend a great deal of time earning isk compared to the time actually spending the isk.
Therefore it is pay to win, but if you are playing for free then you shouldn't get upset. They pay the bills and development costs.
So the system works and should be left as is. However, don't say its not pay to win. Its only fair. They are paying for your game time.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 03:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
To straighten things out without reading my wall of text I want to point out these facts:
1. It takes real money to make a PLEX.
2. PLEX are highly valued items in the game.
3. No matter how much isk you have, you cannot create a PLEX yourself without using real money.
4. You have to pay someone who created the PLEX meaning the people who spend money have a monopoly on the PLEX.
(Sure their are market traders who buy and sell plex, but that PLEX had to come from someone who created it using real money).
5. Having a monopoly of this highly valued item means they have the power and the people paying them in isk are at a disadvantage.
QED
Sure you have some leeway in bargaining with the people who spend money because they compete among themselves, but collectively you are restricted from buying a PLEX from a person who spends real money. However anyone can create isk so that market is less valued.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17740
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
Trixie Rocks wrote:How can you even support that statement?
It takes about 6 years to skill a 100SP character or longer, and it would take maybe a month of Plex spending PVP action to learn how to use it... this game is on the very top of P2W games. If by 6 years or longer you mean less than 5 years, yes. And the statement is pretty easy to support seeing as how the things you buy for your money already have to exist in-game before you can buy them, otherwise it doesn't matter how much you try to pay. This means that the stuff you're paying for exists without paying for them, which defeats the entire notion of P2W: paying or not paying doesn't affect your GÇ£winGÇ¥ in the slightest.
So this game is so far down the list of P2W games that it's not even on the list GÇö it doesn't even qualify for the GÇ£pay toGÇ¥ part, much less the GÇ£winGÇ¥ part.
Quote:The only reason that it really doesn't matter for PVP is because it's mostly gang war anyways and there is no true Player Vs Player contest to be had in this game ATM. GǪaside from everything in the game, that is, including said gang wars. The reason it doesn't matter is because no matter how much you pay, you're not getting any kind of advantage that other players don't already have.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:10:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tippia wrote:If by 6 years or longer you mean less than 5 years, yes. And the statement is pretty easy to support seeing as how the things you buy for your money already have to exist in-game before you can buy them, otherwise it doesn't matter how much you try to pay. This means that the stuff you're paying for exists without paying for them, which defeats the entire notion of P2W: paying or not paying doesn't affect your GÇ£winGÇ¥ in the slightest.
Anyone who plays EVE can make ships, ammo, rigs, and modules in EVE.
Only people who pay real money can create PLEX.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17740
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:27:00 -
[40] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Anyone who plays EVE can make ships, ammo, rigs, and modules in EVE.
Only people who pay real money can create PLEX. PLEX serve no in-game function GÇö only an out-of-game one that is inherently tied to payment: the continuation of a subscription.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Anyone who plays EVE can make ships, ammo, rigs, and modules in EVE.
Only people who pay real money can create PLEX. PLEX serve no in-game function GÇö only an out-of-game one that is inherently tied to payment: the continuation of a subscription.
If PLEX serves no in game function, then why is it so expensive?
Why do people all get full of glee when they see a shuttle destroyed with 50 plex in it?
Obviously it has some function to the EVE economy..
Or are people paying 600 million for a non-functioning item?
The simple act of playing the game is indeed a very important part of the game itself.
If you cannot play, then all the in-game functions are useless.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17740
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:42:00 -
[42] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:If PLEX serves no in game function, then why is it so expensive? Because its out-of-game function: it represents 1 month of game-time.
Quote:Why do people all get full of glee when they see a shuttle destroyed with 50 plex in it? Because stupidity is always fun.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:If PLEX serves no in game function, then why is it so expensive? Because its out-of-game function: it represents 1 month of game-time. Quote:Why do people all get full of glee when they see a shuttle destroyed with 50 plex in it? Because stupidity is always fun.
So let's say for a moment that I agree that it is an out of game function...
That still means its a valuable item in EVE.
Because there is no other item in EVE that does that out of game function.
I know of no item you can manufacture that gives you free game time. You have to trade items or isk to someone who has used real money to create that item.
You cannot say with a straight face without being a troll that in game 30 day pilot license PLEX's are not valuable in game.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17740
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 04:53:00 -
[44] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:So let's say for a moment that I agree that it is an out of game function...
That still means its a valuable item in EVE. So?
Quote:You cannot say with a straight face without being a troll that in game 30 day pilot license PLEX's are not valuable in game. GǪand as luck would have it, no-one has made such a claim.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:So let's say for a moment that I agree that it is an out of game function...
That still means its a valuable item in EVE. So? Quote:You cannot say with a straight face without being a troll that in game 30 day pilot license PLEX's are not valuable in game. GǪand as luck would have it, no-one has made such a claim.
Then why is it important that PLEX has no in game function then? Its still valuable. You implied that it wasn't by dismissing the importance of its creation by money.
If you are not saying that it is not valuable (double negative) then you must agree with me and that people use real money to create an item of value in the EVE universe.
And that these people who use real money have monopoly of its creation and therefore have an advantage over people who trade them isk for the plex because all players can create isk. Only players who pay real money can create PLEX.
If you agree that PLEX is valuable you must also agree that only people who play real money can create the PLEX.
There is no denying this fact.
So you must agree with me or deny actual facts.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17740
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Then why is it important that PLEX has no in game function then? Because it makes it distinctly different and completely unrelated to ships, ammo, rigs, and modules, and as such, having a GÇ£monopolyGÇ¥ on it is meaningless.
Quote:You implied that it wasn't by dismissing the importance of its creation by money. No and no, in roughly that order. You're imagining things.
Quote:If you agree that PLEX is valuable you must also agree that only people who play real money can create the PLEX. Non sequitur, so no, I don't particularly have to. More to the point, it doesn't matter because as you point out, the supposed advantage is available whether you pay or not.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:32:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Non sequitur, so no, I don't particularly have to. More to the point, it doesn't matter because as you point out, the supposed advantage is available whether you pay or not.
So you are not going to agree with me at all?
Does that mean you do not believe that PLEX is valuable in the EVE game and that only people who pay real money can create PLEX?
I mean you either agree or don't.
If you don't agree then you don't agree with real fats.
I think you painted into a corner and improperly used "non sequitur" to try to get out of it.
At this point you are just saying anything because you can't stand to agree with me.
So tell me... If you can...
Is PLEX valuable?
Can only people who pay real money create plex?
I doubt you can bring yourself to answer these two questions.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
GreenSeed
781
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:46:00 -
[48] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Tippia wrote:Non sequitur, so no, I don't particularly have to. More to the point, it doesn't matter because as you point out, the supposed advantage is available whether you pay or not. So you are not going to agree with me at all? Does that mean you do not believe that PLEX is valuable in the EVE game and that only people who pay real money can create PLEX? I mean you either agree or don't. If you don't agree then you don't agree with real fats. I think you painted into a corner and improperly used "non sequitur" to try to get out of it. At this point you are just saying anything because you can't stand to agree with me. So tell me... If you can... Is PLEX valuable? Can only people who pay real money create plex? I doubt you can bring yourself to answer these two questions.
the value of the item has no bearing on its effect ingame, plex could be worth 100bill, but its still useless in game.
the fact is, plex CANNOT be traded for in game "things" that don't comply with this two rules: first, the "thing" must be the result of the eve production chain. and second, the "thing" must not have a bearing on ingame combat or market visibility.
you cant trade plex for golden ammo, you cant trade plex or aur for a NPC produced ship, module or service that can increase combat proficiency or market visibility.
this game has cosmetic microtransactions, and plex. plex is not a microtransaction, AUR is, but the only items for sale in exchange of AUR have no bearing in combat or market visibility, even when they are not player produced. |
Captain Tardbar
Sons of Sam
788
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 05:57:00 -
[49] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Tippia wrote:Non sequitur, so no, I don't particularly have to. More to the point, it doesn't matter because as you point out, the supposed advantage is available whether you pay or not. So you are not going to agree with me at all? Does that mean you do not believe that PLEX is valuable in the EVE game and that only people who pay real money can create PLEX? I mean you either agree or don't. If you don't agree then you don't agree with real fats. I think you painted into a corner and improperly used "non sequitur" to try to get out of it. At this point you are just saying anything because you can't stand to agree with me. So tell me... If you can... Is PLEX valuable? Can only people who pay real money create plex? I doubt you can bring yourself to answer these two questions. the value of the item has no bearing on its effect ingame, plex could be worth 100bill, but its still useless in game. the fact is, plex CANNOT be traded for in game "things" that don't comply with this two rules: first, the "thing" must be the result of the eve production chain. and second, the "thing" must not have a bearing on ingame combat or market visibility. you cant trade plex for golden ammo, you cant trade plex or aur for a NPC produced ship, module or service that can increase combat proficiency or market visibility. this game has cosmetic microtransactions, and plex. plex is not a microtransaction, AUR is, but the only items for sale in exchange of AUR have no bearing in combat or market visibility, even when they are not player produced.
You haven't read my entire line of thinking...
Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree?
Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree?
Hence the advantage.
"Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby".
If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Captain Tardbar: The official grumpy cat of General Discussion. |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
9038
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tippia wrote:PLEX serve no in-game function
I have to disagree with this. They provide us with endless in game content
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
6931
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:12:00 -
[51] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:You haven't read my entire line of thinking...
Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree?
Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree?
Hence the advantage.
"Anyone can create titans, only people who spend money can buy a monocle. Hence the advantage."
Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
Bel Amar
Rules of Acquisition
Acquisition Of Empire
49
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 06:58:00 -
[52] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:So basically people with lots of money pay other people minimum wage to do all the hard work while they sit back and sip champagne on their yachts.
Kind of like real life.
Pretty much
Quote:I am just saying its silly to say that people who spend cash on the game have no advantage over people that don't.
So, you're refuting a claim I never made? If you have a closer look at my post, i said that it is /technically/ p2w, and I also said that you as an individual can come out ahead.
My point wasn't that an individual can't benefit, rather just that the EVE system redistributes in game assets for real world cash, instead of spawning it out of nothing, so the game as a whole is no worse off.
I'm not sure how you took "people who spend cash get no advantage" from that... |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
574
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 11:18:00 -
[53] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree?
Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree?
Hence the advantage. The only in-game use of PLEX is to acquire ISK. All players can acquire ISK. No advantage.
[img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img]
Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
17741
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 12:18:00 -
[54] - Quote
Captain Tardbar wrote:So you are not going to agree with me at all? I'm not going to agree with your non sequitur, no, becauseGǪ wellGǪ it's a non sequitur so it would be rather silly of me to do so. At that point, your supporting evidence doesn't matter because the conclusion you draw from it is incorrect no matter what.
Quote:I mean you either agree or don't. GǪor I reject your entire premise, as well as your false dilemma.
Quote:You haven't read my entire line of thinking...
Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree?
Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree?
Hence the advantage. GǪexcept that PLEX has no in-game function and therefore offers no advantage. It's just game time GÇö time everyone has (because otherwise they wouldn't be in the game). So it is pretty much completely unlike things like modules, ships, and ammo.
If anything, the buyers are at an advantage since they can obviously create that kind of ISK without having to go sell game time to other players to do so, whereas the seller cannot for various reasons. If you want to say that the buying party has a monopoly on PLEX, then the buying party has a far greater monopoly: on ISK. Your come-back will be GÇ£anyone can make ISKGÇ¥, but guess what, under comparable circumstances, anyone can make PLEX too. So if you are really going to go with the monopoly angle, then there are two of them GÇö one on PLEX and one on ISK and both give the same advantage. So in the end, there is no actual advantage since everything cancels itself out.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
6936
|
Posted - 2013.12.15 12:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Anyone can create modules, ships, and ammo in EVE. Do you agree?
Only people who spend money can create PLEX. Do you agree?
Hence the advantage. The only in-game use of PLEX is to acquire ISK. All players can acquire ISK. No advantage.
That's not technically true. You can use PLEX to train with more than one character per account. But that doesn't really count since that's equivalent to activating another account for 30 days (except that you can use the character after the time has expired).
Latest video - Pandemic Legion titan and supers killed |
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