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DeeCo
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:06:00 -
[91]
you can see whats going to happen shortly :-
1) When you jump you are put in a state of flux and left immune till your client loads, be it a week or more, then we get the Im stuck petitions.
2) when exiting a station, the same rule applies.
3) CTD's - caused by your own hardware and crappy drivers, ( nothing to do with CCP, even though you only ever CTD within Eve). so that when you next login you have the "dreaded Entering space syndrome", see 1 and 2
4)Drones will be classed as an exploit and removed entirely from game, due to the loading times.
5)When warping into new space you will have 30 minutes of Immunity, just in case theres something to lag you out, or you end up with case 1, which would seem the better option.
6) Use the damn map and stay the f*** away from the area's of high kills, IMHO the map STATS are an Exploit, you can prepare for attacks in advance. ( ie hide in dead space )
7) Leave us alone, and we leave you alone, well not totally true "we like to kill stuff" (stavr0s). Mind you, you could allways mine in your fluffeh warm Empire space, thx to all the moaners and whiners, CCP made this a warm place with your mothers milk on tap. As usual theres a sting in the tail too, the Concorde now blow you up for fighting, be it accident or not :)
8)The game mechanics and real world physical mechanics dont allow large player based battles to take place.
So what can we do to fix this ?
A: Lets make it all turn-based, with text instead of gfx and play it on a mobile phone.
Click my sig for stats
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Sputnik Stan
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:35:00 -
[92]
It seems to me that the best solution to solve the lag/loading-from-warp-and-or-jump problems that appears in this thread is the one that can be summed up as "Not appear till ship can be under control". Apologies to the person who suggested this, I cannot remember who it was.
From a playing point of view, this would result in more time spent looking at loading bars. However, what would you want to see ? A program in which weeks of work may be undone by client/server lag ... or a client that makes you wait a length of time, maybe a time that streches into minutes for some .... then POW ... you're into the action.
It is gratifying to know that someone from the developement team has taken the time to respond to this, which is in my view, a desperatly important issue. Unfortunately, I failed to see their response in this thread. Perhaps I missed it.
I know I am not alone in reducing my playing time of eve for the reasons of lag. I find myself more and more reluctant to play a game where I own a ship bouncing around on a rubber band by merely issuing a command to stop ship. Eve is becoming more and more a joke in my mind as the lag and reports from other players of lag, ctd, jump-in and other forms of unfair ship loss continue to file in.
Please, somebody from the development team, respond in this thread to assure me, and others like me, that it is really is worth continuing to subscribe. I.e., that you are looking into these lag issues and that they are actually solvable. Your lack of response only goes to prove to me that you have no solution to these issues.
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Grimmacker
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:10:00 -
[93]
CCP please respond to this, do u have any ideas to cope with this game killing problem?
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:21:00 -
[94]
But if it looks too ugly and I have a half a sec to warp, I'm gone. At least I can admit that wholeheartedly. And that's what the immunity timers give people: the half second to warp.
It also gives the 10 battleships that jumped at the same time to launch combat drones, hardeners, boosters, ECCM, begin targeting, etc.
Every last one of those ships was destroyed before the pilots had control. I bet that was real fun.
I R CLICKY BUTTON AND TEH SHIP EXPLODES!@"!!!ONEONE!!
Incedentally running away is not an exploit..
The fact it is easy to run away is another problem entirely and not related to this in the slightest.
Nor is the whole "combat drone vs mining drone" the issue.
This isn't about some assinine semantic argument like "Oh, how can I tell you have control of your ship" since you are never concerned with this fact in the first place.
The fact is, it is possible to ambush other players at jump-in points and have them in pods before they regain control of their ship. The mechanics allow this. This does not enhance or improve gameplay or player entertainment. It strips it completely totally destroying any immersive sense of game reality.
Exploit? Who cares.
Fix it, and soon.
===============================
Deception + Information + Skill |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.09.08 13:58:00 -
[95]
Well... after all I can just say that during beta CCP has been told repeatedly that large battle cause lots of lag, especially when one group (10+ ships) warps to the other. TheyŠve also been told repeatedly that drones and such can cause loads of lag and cause players who warp in to the scene to lose control over their ship for up to a minute.
This is not the playerŠs fault, itŠs CCPs fault and IŠm very angry at them for not giving ANY statement on this so far.
You canŠt blame the players for using drones. You canŠt blame them for using strategy (waiting at jump-in points, staying at gates, etc) as this is what the game is all about. You canŠt blame them for shooting at incoming ships as soon as they show up.
BUT YOU CAN BLAME CCP for not fixing this **** during beta and you can blame them for not giving any statement on an issue that practically prevents larger battles in a game that was designed for those!
So stop going at each other all the time! Point your anger where it really belongs!
It doesnŠt matter what type of drones they used! It doesnŠt matter if they specifically used them to lag others!
What does matter is that the game-mechanics at this point are so weak that they cause huge amounts of lag.
People whoŠve been here in the old days probably still remember that thread on the old EvE-boards where CCP was talking about how they were going to make the game lag-free. The one where they said that the game mechanics are almost 100% deterministic so lag doesnŠt really play a role and stuff? Where is all that talk now? Where is the lag-free deterministic game system now? Really...
Again: Point your anger where it really belongs! You wonŠt help the game by constantly blaming and throwing **** at others because you lost a battle or whatever. But you CAN help the game if you point your finger at CCP for not giving statements on this in the first place.
If the game doesnŠt allow big battles to happen, then we can at least demand a statement from CCP to ask why these sort of things are happening and what is done to get rid of this bs.
Mai's Idealog |
cball
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:13:00 -
[96]
 Quote:
Quote:
*******s Jash. I don't mind being attacked at all, I'd just like to be able to respond.
You don't get that option when you're attacked on jump-in.
The only reason people are using drones to slow the client down is because cargo containers would make it too obvious.
Yeah, drones add absolutely no value to a battleship fight. Ask Jade Constatine 
You may want a chance to respond. You might actually stick around and slug it out with the force waiting. I might as well, depending on the forces arrayed against me.
But if it looks too ugly and I have a half a sec to warp, I'm gone. At least I can admit that wholeheartedly. And that's what the immunity timers give people: the half second to warp.
You can't be so thick headed as to continue to not understand that the LAG induced EXCEEDS the immunity time???(I could be wrong...)
Finding an unintended flaw in the game mechanics and to continue to use it to gain an advantage, is an exploit.
This is a varient on the CC-lag inducement exploit that was "fixed".
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
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cball
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:16:00 -
[97]
Quote:
Well... after all I can just say that during beta CCP has been told repeatedly that large battle cause lots of lag, especially when one group (10+ ships) warps to the other. TheyŠve also been told repeatedly that drones and such can cause loads of lag and cause players who warp in to the scene to lose control over their ship for up to a minute.
This is not the playerŠs fault, itŠs CCPs fault and IŠm very angry at them for not giving ANY statement on this so far.
You canŠt blame the players for using drones. You canŠt blame them for using strategy (waiting at jump-in points, staying at gates, etc) as this is what the game is all about. You canŠt blame them for shooting at incoming ships as soon as they show up.
BUT YOU CAN BLAME CCP for not fixing this **** during beta and you can blame them for not giving any statement on an issue that practically prevents larger battles in a game that was designed for those!
So stop going at each other all the time! Point your anger where it really belongs!
It doesnŠt matter what type of drones they used! It doesnŠt matter if they specifically used them to lag others!
What does matter is that the game-mechanics at this point are so weak that they cause huge amounts of lag.
People whoŠve been here in the old days probably still remember that thread on the old EvE-boards where CCP was talking about how they were going to make the game lag-free. The one where they said that the game mechanics are almost 100% deterministic so lag doesnŠt really play a role and stuff? Where is all that talk now? Where is the lag-free deterministic game system now? Really...
Again: Point your anger where it really belongs! You wonŠt help the game by constantly blaming and throwing **** at others because you lost a battle or whatever. But you CAN help the game if you point your finger at CCP for not giving statements on this in the first place.
If the game doesnŠt allow big battles to happen, then we can at least demand a statement from CCP to ask why these sort of things are happening and what is done to get rid of this bs.
To continue to use the "bug" is a violation of the ELUA (the rules), and should be punished as such, by banning the offenders, PERMA-BAN
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
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Cymoril
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:16:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Cymoril on 08/09/2003 14:17:40
Quote:
Quote:
:
Quote:
:
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
That's the ONLY way?
Why not just make it so player's ship does not appear in the target sector until the client tells the host the he is done loading? There is no need for invulnerability here, just make it so that the client tells the host "okay, I'm ready" and THEN the ship appears to both the client and host at basically the same time.
Hackable. You give that type of control to the client and someone will find a real way to exploit it through packet sniffing and playing with the signal being sent.
The client cannot be trusted in these games for anything except displaying information from the server.
HACKABLE?
Go ahead and hack it. All you could do is tell the host that your client is not ready, and all THAT would do is tell the host not to load you into the sector. What good would this do?
Hack away, won't do any good. |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:16:00 -
[99]
Who doesn't understand that if you have up to a minute in loading time, you'll find your ship almost destroyed when you finally load?
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:16:00 -
[100]
Maybe if CCP would make their loggin better and made official statements on whats exploit or not, they could go on a banning spree... And get rid of people who exploit.
We all hate cheaters, why allow it?
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:21:00 -
[101]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 08/09/2003 14:22:05
Maybe. But does banning those people help the poor game mechanics?
Simple answer is: No.
IŠm not saying I do like exploiters or something. I pretty much hate em as anyone else in here. All IŠm saying is that all this smacktalk about exploiting does NOT help the game.
In fact IŠm happy that this whole thing came up because it might actually lead CCP to fixing this bs anytime soon so we can start fighting without having to worry about this **** all the time. ItŠs just not fun anymore...
Mai's Idealog |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 15:03:00 -
[102]
Quote:
Context Jash. Try it some time.
People use drones to lag the client. End of story. The fact that people have been found with clouds of mining drones around them at jump gates or jump-in points makes it blatently obvious what they're up to. The only reason mining drones or cheap drones are used is because they can carry a lot of them and because (as has been proved in this thread) you can turn around and say "They're only drones. What are you going to do? Ban drones now? OMG OMG OMG". Drones are less obvious than cargo containers.
I'm not saying drones are exclusively used for lag, but they help a lot. When people use mining drones in combat then its blatantly obvious why they're there.
So, no, don't ban drones. Ban the *****s who blatantly take the **** out of the mechanics of the game.
End of your story. Thankfully, your story does not count. Cause when someone says "I did it to bluff you", I'm going to start laughing. Because you can't prove otherwise. You're not judge here and you need to stop believing you are.
Athule Snamm got it right. MaiLina KaTar got it right. But it's not what you want to be right so logic is wrong.
Cymoril:
Quote:
HACKABLE?
Go ahead and hack it. All you could do is tell the host that your client is not ready, and all THAT would do is tell the host not to load you into the sector. What good would this do?
Hack away, won't do any good.
I dunno. I don't think like someone that does that type of stuff. I've only seen the results. At a guess? A fleet building in null space and jumping in simultaneously because of TS.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Sourus
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Posted - 2003.09.08 15:13:00 -
[103]
Hackable? That's pure bull****. The only thing the client has to send is: I'm ready. Display me.
That message is no different than: Player pressed the fire button on weapon 1.
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Tilihad
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Posted - 2003.09.08 15:40:00 -
[104]
I agree with the earlier post of just make the jump-in point completely random. That would give us time to move on to the next cry of exploit.
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Daesdemona
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Posted - 2003.09.08 15:51:00 -
[105]
Good christ learn to quote sections....
-----------------------------------------------
Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?"
Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't"
----------------------------------------------- |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:23:00 -
[106]
To clear up a misconception here: there is a 10 sec invulnerability timer upon warping into a system. However, most of these 10 secs are gone in the loading process, and it might seem there is none at all.
People with fast computers will load before the invulnerability has timed out though, and its fairly easy to check. Ive had this verified about 20 systems in row a couple of times hunting tti the 20 instajump systems down from venal :/
Also, wether this is an exploit or not, decide for yourself. Here is the definition that matters in this case.
...To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. ty dictionary.com...
Using a game mechanic flaw to be able to kill someone who's still loading, I consider that unethical at least.
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Siris
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:26:00 -
[107]
fix, ban, reimburse.
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.09.08 23:52:00 -
[108]
cball you are an idiot.
Malina's points are all very valid.
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Jorev
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Posted - 2003.09.09 00:23:00 -
[109]
In EQ, camping the zone in lines on the PvP servers was a bannable offense because it is an exploit of game mechanics.
There was no workaround for the devs since the zone ins needed to be fixed points because of the mobs which roamed the zones, making it a death trap to randomize entry.
In EvE, the devs can create a workaround by coding enough random non roid field/stargate/planet locations, to make camping too difficult, but the likelihood of this being fixed any time soon is doubtful.
Until then, the GMs need to make it a threat of banning like they did with previous exploits, in order to make people stop abusing the game mechanics.
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cball
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Posted - 2003.09.09 00:46:00 -
[110]
Quote:
cball you are an idiot.
Malina's points are all very valid.
Insults and flames from a multi time QUITER.
...well, at least I am not a quiter, and if a quiter wants to think I am an idiot, fine, as if the opinion has any merit what so ever...
...can we say Troll molly, we thought you could...(now we know where all that hot air was coming from...)
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.09 01:28:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Arathmon on 09/09/2003 01:28:44
And the topic goes on and on... spinning further and further away from what I meant it to be.
In case some of you have forgotten in all your points, counter points, flames, insults and finger pointing... here is my original post. Read it. Understand where I am coming from and what I am hoping to accomplish.
Quote:
Alright now, the new pseudo exploit has hit the streets people, grab it while it's hot!
If you're a forum ***** you know what I'm talking about, if not, pay close attention. Recently people have been waiting at jump-in points in systems, deploying all the drones they can, waiting for unsuspecting victims to jump in, then podkilling them before their client even loads.
Now, with all the namecalling and finger pointing going on, I'm asking for anyone who feels they have been adversely affected by said exploit to actually file a petition ingame asking a GM to look into it.
Somewhat noteworthy in this tactic is using harvester mining drones in combat for the sole purpose of lag, thinly veiled behind the excuse of making your ship harder to target.
I'm hoping CCP will come down on one side or other in this issue, since currently this 'tactic' is causing many people grief.
---------------
I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Homo Erectus
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Posted - 2003.09.09 01:33:00 -
[112]
there is no skill in camping entry points. anyone who does this is admitting they cannot win using their brains, but only using the inadequecies of the game itself.
this is like when stav/m0o intentionally used a sensor booster to cause ctd's.
you know better.
anyone who defends the usage of this crap is a moron. (fact) |
Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.09 04:15:00 -
[113]
yawn....
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Master Scy
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Posted - 2003.09.09 05:17:00 -
[114]
Quote:
Quote:
HACKABLE?
Go ahead and hack it. All you could do is tell the host that your client is not ready, and all THAT would do is tell the host not to load you into the sector. What good would this do?
Hack away, won't do any good.
I dunno. I don't think like someone that does that type of stuff. I've only seen the results. At a guess? A fleet building in null space and jumping in simultaneously because of TS.
In lag free environments well coordinated gangs could already jump in within 1 second of each other... I've seen it.
But yes, if it's client dependant someone will find a way to abuse it sooner or later...
-----------------------------
You think Marco Polo said
"Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ?
-Indigo Seqi
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Korben Dallas
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Posted - 2003.09.09 07:06:00 -
[115]
Quote:
dude ur lame, congrats.
kettle...pot..
Aikon-Systems
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.09 07:12:00 -
[116]
Quote:
yawn....
Getting tired of everyone pointing out what a lamer tactic this is, maybe?
Take a nap, maybe tommorow you'll be able to fight someone who has actually loaded the system you're in and can fire back or move around a bit - you know like a real game instead of this BS you call a "victory."
I thought you guys were supposed to be powerful? This tactic is embarassing for anyone who uses it.
lame-o
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Sputnik Stan
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Posted - 2003.09.10 04:18:00 -
[117]
Quote:
yawn....
thanks for the bump
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Homo Erectus
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Posted - 2003.09.10 04:41:00 -
[118]
"yawn..." = "you're right frst" |
cball
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Posted - 2003.09.10 04:56:00 -
[119]
Quote:
there is no skill in camping entry points. anyone who does this is admitting they cannot win using their brains, but only using the inadequecies of the game itself.
this is like when stav/m0o intentionally used a sensor booster to cause ctd's.
you know better.
anyone who defends the usage of this crap is a moron. (fact)
harsh, but true...
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
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Rath Amon
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Posted - 2003.09.10 08:00:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Rath Amon on 10/09/2003 08:02:38
Most of the people who play this game have a neutral impact on it. They do what's expected.
A rare few have a good impact on it. They volunteer for Polaris or write interesting roleplaying fiction or contribute something worthwhile.
There are also a few who use any available loophole to 'win' and they have a negative impact on the game. Dropping non-combat drones to create lag is a cheap tactic and should be rewarded by bans.
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