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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:50:00 -
[1]
Alright now, the new pseudo exploit has hit the streets people, grab it while it's hot!
If you're a forum ***** you know what I'm talking about, if not, pay close attention. Recently people have been waiting at jump-in points in systems, deploying all the drones they can, waiting for unsuspecting victims to jump in, then podkilling them before their client even loads.
Now, with all the namecalling and finger pointing going on, I'm asking for anyone who feels they have been adversely affected by said exploit to actually file a petition ingame asking a GM to look into it.
Somewhat noteworthy in this tactic is using harvester mining drones in combat for the sole purpose of lag, thinly veiled behind the excuse of making your ship harder to target.
I'm hoping CCP will come down on one side or other in this issue, since currently this 'tactic' is causing many people grief.
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I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Stoop
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:52:00 -
[2]
You do realize that there are multiple spawn points within a system? Ever traveled with a friend and approached the gate from DIFFERENT angles?
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:54:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
You do realize that there are multiple spawn points within a system? Ever traveled with a friend and approached the gate from DIFFERENT angles?
I do realize this. Yet another reason for clarification from CCP on this.
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I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:54:00 -
[4]
the hilarious thing is, if fountain consider this an exploit, which they seem to do...
and they KNEW that the warpin point was camped...
why did they jump in 15ish bships?
riddle me that arathmon
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:55:00 -
[5]
Quote:
You do realize that there are multiple spawn points within a system? Ever traveled with a friend and approached the gate from DIFFERENT angles?
Just because there are other spawn points doesn't excuse any potential exploit.
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:58:00 -
[6]
Quote:
the hilarious thing is, if fountain consider this an exploit, which they seem to do...
and they KNEW that the warpin point was camped...
why did they jump in 15ish bships?
riddle me that arathmon
Note I left names out of this, stavvy. I'm not particularly upset over the recent loss of ships from my alliance, but more concerned about this pseudoexploit becoming the new fashion.
I actually like things being fair for both sides. Imagine that.
As to why the FA jumped in 15 battleships while knowing you guys were camping the jump in point: Ask them. I wasn't there.
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I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
clandestinity
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:58:00 -
[7]
On my way from Orvolle to PF-346 at jump in I was fired upon by "Derelict".
OMG H4x 
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.07 22:59:00 -
[8]
dude ur lame, congrats.
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:01:00 -
[9]
Quote:
dude ur lame, congrats.
Thus we see why M0o, and a great deal of Pirates, are the laughing stock of the Community.
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:01:00 -
[10]
As my acceptance speech on being lame, I'd like to quote something every moderator should hold near and dear to his heart:
Quote:
Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as "flaming," personal attacks are posts which are designed to personally berate or insult another. Text of this nature is not beneficial to the community spirit and will not be tolerated. Corporation, faction members and other players are cautioned to avoid allowing an "in character" dispute become an "out of character" personal attack. The game is designed for role playing and/or portraying a role and it is sometimes easy for tempers to flare when the lines between the virtual world and the real world are crossed. Keep in-game disputes in the game and off the forum, please, unless it is clearly a mutual, in character exchange.
OMG OMG OMG...
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I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Stoop
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:03:00 -
[11]
My point is, for this to be thoroughly 'exploited' you would have to spend a considerable amount of time leaving, and re-gating into an area in order to find each of the drop spots. THEN, you would have to get enough ships to sit at each one to effectively kill 10 BS.
You call this an exploit, but its not something that can be easily done, seeing as it takes at bare minimum, a lot of ships.
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:04:00 -
[12]
Quote:
My point is, for this to be thoroughly 'exploited' you would have to spend a considerable amount of time leaving, and re-gating into an area in order to find each of the drop spots. THEN, you would have to get enough ships to sit at each one to effectively kill 10 BS.
You call this an exploit, but its not something that can be easily done, seeing as it takes at bare minimum, a lot of ships.
I called it a pseudoexploit because I'm not sure what it is yet, and am awaiting word from CCP. Thus the whole point of this post.
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I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Stoop
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:06:00 -
[13]
I think 'home field advantage' is a better term for it.
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:11:00 -
[14]
I don't want to argue about it.
I want CCP to be notified some think it's an exploit, and others don't.
I want CCP to decide what it is, and have the rest of us act accordingly.
Understand why I created this thread now? If you need more clarification feel free to ask...
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I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Jarjar
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:15:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I think 'home field advantage' is a better term for it.
I just can't see the reason to use mining drones in PvP combat for any other reason than to lag. I don't have any proof that people are doing it - so don't come telling me I'm wrong. I might be... Not.
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Relic
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:22:00 -
[16]
Quote:
You do realize that there are multiple spawn points within a system? Ever traveled with a friend and approached the gate from DIFFERENT angles?
Well there should be, but for many of the routes I take, the spawn points always seem to be the same as I enter the system.
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:25:00 -
[17]
Uh yes, welcome to EVE: The Carebear Genesis.
You lose on the field, then you come to the forums and blame your opponents as exploiters.
And even worse: CCP and GMs will help you out, no matter how stupid you are.
God damn losers.
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:26:00 -
[18]
go molly its cho bday, go molly its cho bday!?!
unf!
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:27:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Uh yes, welcome to EVE: The Carebear Genesis.
You lose on the field, then you come to the forums and blame your opponents as exploiters.
And even worse: CCP and GMs will help you out, no matter how stupid you are.
God damn losers.
Yeah, the Pirates do have quite a habit of this.
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:27:00 -
[20]
Some things will never change :P.
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:28:00 -
[21]
Alexia Te'Len, you are just a troll not knowing anything about pirating and we all know this by reading one of your pointless posts.
Go figure it out or shut up please.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:31:00 -
[22]
Quote:
You lose on the field
Yah, it's not really considered a "loss" then the person's client hasn't loaded yet.
Anyone using drones to lag people warping in = lamer *****. How about fighting people who can shoot back?
To tough for you?
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Alexia Te'Len
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:32:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Alexia Te'Len, you are just a troll not knowing anything about pirating and we all know this by reading one of your pointless posts.
Go figure it out or shut up please.
Molly, you are just a troll not knowing how to quit the game and we all know this from your past "I quit" messages.
Go leave for real or shut up please.
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cball
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:36:00 -
[24]
Quote:
the hilarious thing is, if fountain consider this an exploit, which they seem to do...
and they KNEW that the warpin point was camped...
why did they jump in 15ish bships?
riddle me that arathmon
SOunds like you have been caught redhanded using yet another exploit.
It is time the DEVs an GMs ban the griefers that use exploits!!!!
Or they can start coughing up some reimbursment for the CTD BUG that has cost so many HONEST players their ship.
Speak up players, when is exploit use, after exploit use, going to result in a permanant ban from CCP as staited in the EULA!
NO more of this warning crap, m0o/rus just can't stop, and will not stop using exploits as long as CCP allows it (warnings are meaningless if there is never a reality of the rules being enforced!)
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
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dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:37:00 -
[25]
There seems to only be 2 spawn points from each gate. And it seems like for a certain period of time, one is used, and later the other one, then switching back to the first, and so on...
It's very easy to camp the currently active spawn point. And, opposite to gate camping, you 1: can't activate your shield modules. 2: Can't know how many enemies are on the other side(or if there are any at all).
Sure, send in a scout. And have him back in his clone factilty long before the loading time has finished
I don't blame RUS for using it (or m0o/Sinister for joining RUS there), but I DO BLAME CCP.
Make the spawn point totally random. Not even at a planet/moon. Have the game produce a random (x,y,z) point where to spawn. Well, yea, you might have to check so it isn't inside of any structure. But statisticly it would take a very loooooooong time before a random point would be inside a structure.
Cause I can bet a whole lot on that now when RUS has showed m0o/Sin how real "exploit-camping" shall be done, you'll find some of them using it very frequently.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Molly
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:39:00 -
[26]
"Yah, it's not really considered a "loss" then the person's client hasn't loaded yet.
Anyone using drones to lag people warping in = lamer *****. How about fighting people who can shoot back?
To tough for you?"
Everyone is affected by this when attacking (changing posistion). Yet I don't see all attackers calling others exploiters and whining about it.
Too tough for you?
Btw. rumors are that FA/Stain lost about 30 other battleships as of today.
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Technolisa
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:42:00 -
[27]
well it was simple ambush , many other corp's used this tactics before , dont know why u didnt complain earlier.. maby because stain alliance did the same before ?
_______________________________________________
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:42:00 -
[28]
Quote:
I don't blame RUS for using it (or m0o/Sinister for joining RUS there), but I DO BLAME CCP.
What a stupid statement. Seriously.
No software is bug/exploit free, it's the responsibilities of players AS PART OF THE CONTRACT YOU ACCEPT WHEN ENTERING GAME not to take advantage of them.
Yes, CCP could fix this, but that doesn't mean the blame doesn't rest on the lamers/exploiters.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:43:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Everyone is affected by this when attacking (changing posistion). Yet I don't see all attackers calling others exploiters and whining about it.
Too tough for you?
Haha. What a crock of ridiculous BS. "Everyone is affected by this"?
No, sorry, only people warping in suffer the 45 second lag. Lag caused by "attacking" or "changing position" is not even close to comparable. What an idiotic thing to say.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Molly
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:45:00 -
[30]
Sorry, I can't help you if you cant see that I ment to say
attack + changing position = session change including new data from server.
Flame on. Lol.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:47:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 07/09/2003 23:48:41
Quote:
attack + changing position = session change including new data from server.
And how are people sitting at a warp-in point podding people while they're loading suffering from this? Hmm.
Make excuses for lamers on. lol
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:50:00 -
[32]
Quote:
Quote:
I don't blame RUS for using it (or m0o/Sinister for joining RUS there), but I DO BLAME CCP.
What a stupid statement. Seriously.
No software is bug/exploit free, it's the responsibilities of players AS PART OF THE CONTRACT YOU ACCEPT WHEN ENTERING GAME not to take advantage of them.
Yes, CCP could fix this, but that doesn't mean the blame doesn't rest on the lamers/exploiters.
Yea, that's because I'm stupid
The system didn't work this way earlier. CCP "fixed" it, so that everyone drops at the same point. It has my vote for "best fix ever".
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Macumba
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Posted - 2003.09.07 23:53:00 -
[33]
Wow. I didn't realise this was still going on.
It was the thing to do in beta. (Stav, I'm looking in your direction.)
Are the mechanics of the game really that bad that people are still using this method of attacking people? What a sad state of affairs.
Roll on player deployable sentry guns. Nobody will ever leave a system again.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Nupraptor
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Posted - 2003.09.08 00:19:00 -
[34]
Quote:
Sorry, I can't help you if you cant see that I ment to say
attack + changing position = session change including new data from server.
Flame on. Lol.
Molly, all ur posts are either trolling or flaming. u need to grow up, and i hope u become a "victim" of one of these "100%unfair" exploits. Why u thi9nk its fair to have ur ship blown up when ur client hasnt even loaded is absolutly riduclous. but im sure when u lose ur ship. this is the first place u will come to cry and threaten to "quit". Why post if all u want to do if flame everyone? lol heard of "KARMA" ?? lol. cant wait to see u crying about losing ur ship to an exploit. Have fun little girl.
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Pudee
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Posted - 2003.09.08 00:29:00 -
[35]
Macumba is right this was rife in beta and a long discussion took place about how to make fair to the person zoning in.
But I'll not hold my breath waiting for a fix or official statement on this issue after all the first time I heard about it was 6 months ago and it's still not been addressed. With all the twaddle we hear about weapon balancing how balanced is being blown up before you have control of your ship.
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Allaina
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Posted - 2003.09.08 00:58:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Roll on player deployable sentry guns. Nobody will ever leave a system again.
Guns aren't deployable in Empire space.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.08 01:10:00 -
[37]
the problem when you jump is you have zero control of any modules to be turned on ... everything IS OFF... so pretty much + lag = you dead...
while warping in you can turn on at least what sheild boosters and hardners?
and you have the 10 sec right?
im not sure but i think you dont get the 10 sec when you jump in...
plus the loading time is a lot more then just warp in lag....
you get loading time + then the lag = really long time to do anyhthing which = death
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.08 01:15:00 -
[38]
Quote:
"Yah, it's not really considered a "loss" then the person's client hasn't loaded yet.
Anyone using drones to lag people warping in = lamer *****. How about fighting people who can shoot back?
To tough for you?"
Everyone is affected by this when attacking (changing posistion). Yet I don't see all attackers calling others exploiters and whining about it.
Too tough for you?
Btw. rumors are that FA/Stain lost about 30 other battleships as of today.
mostly when people attack... they warp in from farther away via a BM and when warping in you ONLY have the warp lag... and you can have SOME modules ON...
when you jump in you have LOADING + LAG + NO modules ON !! that is a big difff... and you are not moving as well
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Sputnik Stan
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Posted - 2003.09.08 01:30:00 -
[39]
Some response to this issue from the developers would be nice, as would a response as to how they are addressing the other lag/loading-after-warp issues that still remain unreslovled.
Are these issues even fixable?
4 months of retail and people are feeling they need to leave EVE over these issues yet they go by unresolved and unaddressed.
Feedback on this issue is important
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.08 01:41:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Some response to this issue from the developers would be nice, as would a response as to how they are addressing the other lag/loading-after-warp issues that still remain unreslovled.
Are these issues even fixable?
4 months of retail and people are feeling they need to leave EVE over these issues yet they go by unresolved and unaddressed.
Feedback on this issue is important
ya i know what you mean... i say SCREW EVERYONE, if you cant make the lag go away...
when poeple warpin LAG EVERYONE 
that way when the lag is done you can all fight LOL...
personally I was saying and MANY MANY PPL.. that UNTIL YOU DONT GET SOME FORM OF SYSTEM RESPONCE OR CONTROL of SHIP... you should stay invulrable... or whatever....
CCP HAVENT DONE T HIS!!!
that means when everything is normal and you can see the space and pirates you should be able to fight!
not be dead while you still havnt finished loading everything.
there are solutions... because this isnt the first MMO and many other companies had to deal with such issues
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.08 01:49:00 -
[41]
I think just from a simple point of view... that some kind of system of checking and reporting of progress should be done... in the game...
the load times either need to be some how distributed so that they are not all done exactly at warpin... as i had ideas that you do so a few sec right before warping...
in fact i have stated a number of ways that the dev's can figure out how much time is needed to to load the area... and that can be done by checking the power of the system and then doing basic calc to see how much data the system can handle and then place that load time... so that when you warp in you dont lag much... no more then the 10 sec
the other idea of checking.... would be client and server talking to each other and making progress based on how far the load time is at... and how long to keep the invulnerability time...
and finally a third one would be just to optimize the code fix it so that it works better 
this really isnt going to get to any dev's as far as i know there response will be we didnt know about it LOL just like the other issues brought about to them in the chat logs that i have read....
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Trianon Starstealer
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Posted - 2003.09.08 01:53:00 -
[42]
Quote:
the hilarious thing is, if fountain consider this an exploit, which they seem to do...
and they KNEW that the warpin point was camped...
why did they jump in 15ish bships?
riddle me that arathmon
Why not riddle yourself back to the gate your camping..... Your one of the whining *****es complaining about bookmarks aren't you?
Anything that stops you getting easy kills is an exploit... anything that gives you an easy kill is fair game.....
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Darketh Nightspawn
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Posted - 2003.09.08 01:57:00 -
[43]
Quote:
My point is, for this to be thoroughly 'exploited' you would have to spend a considerable amount of time leaving, and re-gating into an area in order to find each of the drop spots. THEN, you would have to get enough ships to sit at each one to effectively kill 10 BS.
You call this an exploit, but its not something that can be easily done, seeing as it takes at bare minimum, a lot of ships.
Try three Blackbirds, evenly spread out and with each others position bookmarked. It's easy... and the lamers can warp jam you, Weapon Jam you and Stasis you before your client actually loads.... it seems to be the in thing for the so called pirate community....
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Beringe
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Posted - 2003.09.08 02:00:00 -
[44]
It is lag that needs fixing, not much else.
If the game lags seriously when people deploy drones, then *that* needs to be fixed. Perhaps by not dropping the ships warping in into view before they can respond? Eh? Eh?
You've got to be able to deploy drones for combat.
-------------------------------------------
"My main griveance with the Caldari state was that once I had finished my work for them, they wanted me dead."
"No, it's none of your business." |
nono
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Posted - 2003.09.08 02:16:00 -
[45]
Edited by: nono on 08/09/2003 02:16:54
Quote:
It is lag that needs fixing, not much else.
If the game lags seriously when people deploy drones, then *that* needs to be fixed. Perhaps by not dropping the ships warping in into view before they can respond? Eh? Eh?
You've got to be able to deploy drones for combat.
Right on.
Direct your anger at CCP not some friggen cry of exploit. If the game worked properly and didn't lag the crap out of you when you warp in this would not be a problem.
Many times suggestions have been made on this very old but ever changing problem. All have never been replied to or answered.
From cargo cans to drones or anything else in space for that matter lags the one warping in including his/her own gang mates.
FFS whats next. Only one ship allowed anywhere someone could warp in or it's an EXPLOIT.
Concord at gates lags you, any ship near a warp in point lags you, pirates in belts lag you.
A probelm for over six months and it comes up everytime someone gets Pwned.
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Master Scy
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Posted - 2003.09.08 02:23:00 -
[46]
Quote:
"Yah, it's not really considered a "loss" then the person's client hasn't loaded yet.
Anyone using drones to lag people warping in = lamer *****. How about fighting people who can shoot back?
To tough for you?"
Everyone is affected by this when attacking (changing posistion). Yet I don't see all attackers calling others exploiters and whining about it.
Too tough for you?
Btw. rumors are that FA/Stain lost about 30 other battleships as of today.
Molly, I think the poster is talking about jumping, waiting for the system to load for 30 seconds and then coming into it seeing that you're already jammed and your shields are gone...
And what does any of this have to do with carebears?
-----------------------------
You think Marco Polo said
"Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ?
-Indigo Seqi
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.09.08 02:40:00 -
[47]
"Molly, I think the poster is talking about jumping, waiting for the system to load for 30 seconds and then coming into it seeing that you're already jammed and your shields are gone...
And what does any of this have to do with carebears?"
I know this issue and it sucks.
Camping jump out points is known for longer. It is not something new. SI has used it (unsuccessfuly) against Mixmaster, because the friggin immunity timers at the gates and stations are just a bad joke and we wanted to kill this serial runner.
We have
- insane immunity timers for lag free battles (1 vs 1 or something) while undocking and warping in,
- obsolote immunity timers for large scale battles (full of lag) while undocking and warping in,
- no immunity timers for jumping out.
This is status quo. Just blame CCP for it or ask for fixing it and not the players trying to play the game by calling them exploiters.
And yes, it is a common carebear behaviour and this is just one example of it:
- Carebear loses ship.
- Carebear declares the opponent as an exploiter.
- Carebear comes to the forums to ask all people to file petitions against the "exploiters".
- "Exploiters" get warned/banned by CCP and sued on the forums.
- Game has still massive problems with lag or a some kind of a knee-jerk fix.
And then a bit later when an idiot like me is trying to defend himself or others, the threads suddenly get locked/deleted/moved of whatever.
You people are sad.
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.08 02:45:00 -
[48]
To think, I wanted to keep the namecalling and finger pointing out of this.
Once again, the Eve Forum Community has failed in spectacular fashion.
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I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Karash Amerius
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Posted - 2003.09.08 02:53:00 -
[49]
Its not any player's fault.
But, trying to argue that killing a ship before even the client loads is acceptable is about as moronic as it gets. Ambushes are great...but I wish CCP would have done some better coding in this department.
Right now combat in EvE is all about who can Lag the "Most-est and First-est".
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MaiLina KaTar
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Posted - 2003.09.08 02:55:00 -
[50]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 08/09/2003 02:56:33
Quote:
the other idea of checking.... would be client and server talking to each other and making progress based on how far the load time is at... and how long to keep the invulnerability time...
Yeah, but that would mean that the client actually has something to decide over (load done = yes/no) which on the other hand means that there is a vulnerability to cheats, and those would be real cheats. Not something like a few seconds of lag on warping in... IŠm talking about cheats that let you fly around with your invulnerabilty timer set at 99999999 
While warp-in lag is something that just annoys the players an "invulnerabilty cheat" could really destroy the game.
IMHO leaving even a part of the "decision process" for invulnerabilty to the client is a very dangerous thing and should only be done if thereŠs really no other method.
btw.: Nice to see how itŠs starting to get constructive again. And really people you should keep the wars ingame and avoid flaming each other.
Mai's Idealog |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 03:09:00 -
[51]
Oh for the love of...
Hello?!? McFly?!? Covering the ingress point for a force has been acceptable tactics since cavemen actually went into a cave and figured out "Hey! Ugg, Zugg, and Rar die easier at cave door!" So let's eliminate that part of the discussion now, eh? Drop it, dump it, stuff it, twist it.
As for the drone issue...Well any idiot that uses a 100k harvester drone to create lag over a 40k Praetor drone that can, you know, actually fight N stuff...Do I honestly have to continue? Are you serious? Please, tell me which fools are using harvesters in this manner. I'll trade them 4 Medium Infiltrators for every 1 Havester they use 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Skokeh
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Posted - 2003.09.08 03:20:00 -
[52]
Simply put - Are people not exploiting the on-line nature of the game by killing people before they have even entered space?
Thats against the spirit of the game - and if CCP could provide ZERO lag i am sure they would....
When so many pirates/fighters in these corps are top class, why do they turn to such cheap tricks?
(aimed at no-one in particular - but anyone who hopes to use Lag as a weapon0
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 03:45:00 -
[53]
Quote:
Simply put - Are people not exploiting the on-line nature of the game by killing people before they have even entered space?
Thats against the spirit of the game - and if CCP could provide ZERO lag i am sure they would....
When so many pirates/fighters in these corps are top class, why do they turn to such cheap tricks?
(aimed at no-one in particular - but anyone who hopes to use Lag as a weapon0
Let see...How can people tell when a person's machine has had a chance to load? Hmm... I know!
When they lock you down and turn on so many sensor inhibitors you can't target past the bridge of your ship! Relying on those lovely courtesy notes from Pend Insurance! Yup, they had a chance to load space.
Nobody is going to take that chance when it's 95m isk worth of battleship + ungodly amounts of isk worth of modules on the line. And if you mention the words "Fair" or "Honorable" in regards to ambushing people, may you accidently eject from your ship the next time you run into a SI blockade.
The nature of ambushes, and in combat in general, is to make things as unfair as possible for the people you're fighting. If you want fair, honorable fights wait till someone releases a medieval MMORPG with jousting. Anything else and people will go for the jugular everytime, every day.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
BH Latro
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Posted - 2003.09.08 03:52:00 -
[54]
Unfortunatly with the way existing game mechanics are, this is an issue you can not avoid.
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
The true question to ask here is using a tactic that prevents your target from being capable of responding using current game mechanics an exploit? Of course add to this that you are aware of that
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Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.09.08 03:56:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Jake Solnich on 08/09/2003 03:59:48
If this is truly an exploit, as I suspect that it is, then I hope CCP fixes it soon.
I too have noticed that you usually always jump into a system at the same point. I can see how this could be easily abused.
I don't think it would be fair to anyone if their ship was destroyed even before the client had finished loading.
I'm not going to participate in the blame game, but I will say that this definitely appears to be a problem and needs to be fixed immediately.
Unfortunatley I cannot file a petition unless this directly happens to me, but when it does you can be sure that I will file an exploit petition.
This is a sad day indeed in the Eve universe.
I hope that one day we will be able to enjoy playing Eve without worrying about exploits being blantantly used by other players.
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Master Scy
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Posted - 2003.09.08 04:37:00 -
[56]
Quote:
And if you mention the words "Fair" or "Honorable" in regards to ambushing people, may you accidently eject from your ship the next time you run into a SI blockade.
The nature of ambushes, and in combat in general, is to make things as unfair as possible for the people you're fighting. If you want fair, honorable fights wait till someone releases a medieval MMORPG with jousting. Anything else and people will go for the jugular everytime, every day.
Doesn't matter if it's fair or not, what does is that this completely takes away user control over the situation. You're already dead before you know you entered a battle, and there's no way to avoid the situation unless the pirates are foolish enough to ambush in the same system long enough for a large dot to appear on the map when you check for pod kills.
-----------------------------
You think Marco Polo said
"Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ?
-Indigo Seqi
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Data Loss
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Posted - 2003.09.08 05:50:00 -
[57]
Quote:
Unfortunatly with the way existing game mechanics are, this is an issue you can not avoid.
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
The true question to ask here is using a tactic that prevents your target from being capable of responding using current game mechanics an exploit? Of course add to this that you are aware of that
so i ask: is using a tactic that prevents your target from being capable of responding using current game mechanics an exploit? of course i should also add that one would be aware of this.
is it an exploit and will it be fixed?
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Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.09.08 05:59:00 -
[58]
I have posted a link here related to this subject that some might find useful in determining whether or not this is an exploit.
What's an Exploit?...and Camping/Lagging "Jump-In" Points
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Snoop
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:08:00 -
[59]
lol @ polaris guy
it just goes to show that CCP really didnt think for very long when they started advertising the game as PVP.
PVP is almost impossible for corp wars or alliance war's
and your trying to say CCP cant fix it? then the game is obviously going to be a big flop as more and more people join corperations and see for them self's just how laggy eve get's in large battle's.
alot of people talk about a few seconds of lag not being a big issue they obviously have no clue about the situation what so ever.
the lag is something ccp really needs to fix for the game to ever be a success if they cant do it they might aswell get rid of pvp all together or shutdown the server and work on a new game.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO POINT IN BALANCING OR NERFING WEAPONS IF BATTLES ARE GOING TO BE DECIDED BY WHO CAN CREATE THE MOST LAG!
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:09:00 -
[60]
Maybe you people aren't getting the picture? Who's 'using' what? Anytime you participate in combat, anyplace you choose to have that fight the people warping in are vulnerable to lag. The people already there are not vulnerable to it. They have no control over what system you have, what issues the internet has, what issues CCP's engine has, what issues the db server has, what issues the node has, how many times you've docked since relogging, how long you had the trade window open, how many conversations you've got going simultaenously, how many windows you have open on your UI.
THEY CANNOT TELL WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE LOADED THE SCREEN. All of these factors have pronounced effects on people's computers. None of these factors are under their control. If none of these factors are under their control THEY CANNOT BE EXPLOITING.
Geez...get a grip people. Tight. With both hands. Cause the threads yall are grasping at are extremely, dangerously thin.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:19:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Jake Solnich on 08/09/2003 06:20:58
Edited by: Jake Solnich on 08/09/2003 06:19:56
Jash I believe you need to get a grip and read these comments posted on this topic a more carefully.
Jash, you should especially read my post "What's An Exploit...and Camping/Lagging "Jump-In Points" where I posted links taken directly from the Eve Support page where it specifically states:
Quote:
An exploit is when someone deliberately bypasses the normal game mechanics, by utilizing a bug, a weakness in the system or any other possible loophole in order to personally gain from it, and/or by intentionally use said means to take advantage of other players.
How is what the original poster is describing not an Exploit by CCP's very own definition!?
Jash I believe you have totally missed the point here.
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:33:00 -
[62]
Quote:
Edited by: Jake Solnich on 08/09/2003 06:20:58
Edited by: Jake Solnich on 08/09/2003 06:19:56
Jash I believe you need to get a grip and read these comments posted on this topic a more carefully.
Jash, you should especially read my post "What's An Exploit...and Camping/Lagging "Jump-In Points" where I posted links taken directly from the Eve Support page where it specifically states:
Quote:
An exploit is when someone deliberately bypasses the normal game mechanics, by utilizing a bug, a weakness in the system or any other possible loophole in order to personally gain from it, and/or by intentionally use said means to take advantage of other players.
How is what the original poster is describing not an Exploit by CCP's very own definition!?
Jash I believe you have totally missed the point here.
No, you missed the points and I replied over there as well.
You are attempting to have something classified as against the rules when it is completely impossible for the person to:
1) Recognize whether or not you have loaded the screen.
2) Do anything about it due to the sheer number of factors completely out of their control.
So by the rules you keep quoting, it is impossible to distiguish:
Whether or not someone is taking deliberatly 'bypassing the normal game mechanics by utilizing a weakness in the system'.
You're not asking anything with these asinine threads. You don't want clarification. What you want is CCP to say "They're exploiting" so you can gleefully dance like a kid at Xmas. I'm hard on CCP on a lot of things. But I won't credit them with stupidity of that level.
If you don't want this situation to occur, there is only ONE way to ensure it does not:
Don't engage in combat...EVER
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Cymoril
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:36:00 -
[63]
Quote:
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
That's the ONLY way?
Why not just make it so player's ship does not appear in the target sector until the client tells the host the he is done loading? There is no need for invulnerability here, just make it so that the client tells the host "okay, I'm ready" and THEN the ship appears to both the client and host at basically the same time. |
Iminay
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:36:00 -
[64]
Quote:
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
heh
you do realize we can all easily alter the client to tell the server that we dont have controll of our ships =), every scriptkiddy out there can code that into a 3rd party setup.
Hmmm.. afk trading.. and being invulnerable, = EVE, the second carebear heaven.
____________________________________________________________
Subscription Status: Active
Cancellation
Pending
Expires: 30. September 2003
|
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:40:00 -
[65]
Quote:
Quote:
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
That's the ONLY way?
Why not just make it so player's ship does not appear in the target sector until the client tells the host the he is done loading? There is no need for invulnerability here, just make it so that the client tells the host "okay, I'm ready" and THEN the ship appears to both the client and host at basically the same time.
Hackable. You give that type of control to the client and someone will find a real way to exploit it through packet sniffing and playing with the signal being sent.
The client cannot be trusted in these games for anything except displaying information from the server.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:45:00 -
[66]
Jash once again I go back to my original rebuttal which I believe has a very good point that you fail to see.
By CCP's very own definition this situation could be classified as an exploit. That is my point.
Your point is obvious. You do not believe this is an exploit because you say that it's not the players fault if the game mechanics don't work correctly.
To some extent it wouldn't be the player fault if the game mechanics do not work correctly.
If that same player knowningly takes an unfair advantage of a weakness in the current games mechanics then that is an exploit.
Split hairs on the definition of an exploit if you must.
Until CCP clarifys this and determines that this is indeed an exploit no one will know for sure.
I'm just stating my opinion to the best of my ability and backing it up with facts that support my argument. Unlike some unsupported arguements I have seen thus far.
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 06:52:00 -
[67]
Quote:
Jash once again I go back to my original rebuttal which I believe has a very good point that you fail to see.
By CCP's very own definition this situation could be classified as an exploit. That is my point.
Your point is obvious. You do not believe this is an exploit because you say that it's not the players fault if the game mechanics don't work correctly.
To some extent it wouldn't be the player fault if the game mechanics do not work correctly.
If that same player knowningly takes an unfair advantage of a weakness in the current games mechanics then that is an exploit.
Split hairs on the definition of an exploit if you must.
Until CCP clarifys this and determines that this is indeed an exploit no one will know for sure.
I'm just stating my opinion to the best of my ability and backing it up with facts that support my argument. Unlike some unsupported arguements I have seen thus far.
Your opinion does not matter and your interpretation of CCP's rules do not matter. Your interpretation is to find them guilty of exploiting. You wrote this thread, and the other you're attempting to dodge with, intentionally slanted to persuade people that read the threads to find them guilty of exploiting.
If you think you've been the victim of an exploit, report it then wait for a reply. You come to these boards trying to drum up more fur covered support...
Well I got a pair of shears for people like that. Cause of sick of the "He/She Exploited!" bs around here. Report it. If CCP agrees, they'll take action. Choose to troll instead? Don't play "I'm wounded!" when people smack you about.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.09.08 07:03:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Jake Solnich on 08/09/2003 07:06:42
Quote:
Your opinion does not matter and your interpretation of CCP's rules do not matter. Your interpretation is to find them guilty of exploiting. You wrote this thread, and the other you're attempting to dodge with, intentionally slanted to persuade people that read the threads to find them guilty of exploiting.
Jash I have nothing else to say to you except this.
You obviously don't know what your talking about and you obviously didn't even read the original post on this thread.
You say I wrote this thread and if you had read the original post you would see that I did not! Get your facts straight otherwise you only make yourself look like a fool.
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 07:08:00 -
[69]
Quote:
Quote:
Your opinion does not matter and your interpretation of CCP's rules do not matter. Your interpretation is to find them guilty of exploiting. You wrote this thread, and the other you're attempting to dodge with, intentionally slanted to persuade people that read the threads to find them guilty of exploiting.
Jash I have nothing else to say to you except this.
You obviously don't know what your talking about and you obviously didn't even read the original post on this thread.
You say I wrote this thread and if you had read the original post you would see that I did not! Get your facts straight otherwise you only make yourself look like a fool.
Actually I did read the thread. Including Stavros' usual hijinks and Molly's barely covered venom for all things furry. I forgot that Arathamon started the thread. So shoot me for losing track in 4 pages.
Poe-Tay-Toe...Poe-Tah-Toe. So now can you find something better than minutia? Cause fuggling the thread author doesn't change anything written past that point.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2003.09.08 07:16:00 -
[70]
Hey kids, using drones isn't an exploit.
------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 07:18:00 -
[71]
Quote:
Hey kids, using drones isn't an exploit.
Too logical, Jim. You have to think more irrationally. Using drones are an exploit! Same as using any turret except a mining laser is an exploit! You're exploiting the system to make this game something other than a mining simulator
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jake Solnich
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Posted - 2003.09.08 07:25:00 -
[72]
No one said that using drones was an exploit.
There are alot of variables involved in this possible exploit and some of you are looking at this with too narrow a view.
In order to understand this situation you need to look at the whole story and not just pick bits and pieces out of it.
If you just chose to look only at one part of the situation you will never get the whole story.
Perhaps some of the posters here are doing that on purpose knowing that they are wrong and they have nothing else to fall back on.
I would rather die a free man than live as a slave. |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 07:36:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 08/09/2003 07:38:02
Quote:
No one said that using drones was an exploit.
There are alot of variables involved in this possible exploit and some of you are looking at this with too narrow a view.
In order to understand this situation you need to look at the whole story and not just pick bits and pieces out of it.
If you just chose to look only at one part of the situation you will never get the whole story.
Perhaps some of the posters here are doing that on purpose knowing that they are wrong and they have nothing else to fall back on.
You want the whole, Jackie? Ask and you shall receive:
Quote:
Recently people have been waiting at jump-in points in systems...
Irrelevant. One of the 4 locations where combat is possible in Eve and all 4 suffer from the same issue: the client has to load the data for the area.
Quote:
...deploying all the drones they can, waiting for unsuspecting victims to jump in...
Ludicrious. Two skills in the game increase the number of drones a person can launch, up to 11 total. To accuse a person of exploiting for using of the drones they can, for which they spent days to do, is asinine.
Quote:
...then podkilling them before their client even loads...
Immaterial. Already covered under the sarcastic and serious replies concerning how one tells whether or not another person's computer has loaded. And how little control a person has over the myriad of factors that can affect such performance.
Quote:
Somewhat noteworthy in this tactic is using harvester mining drones in combat for the sole purpose of lag, thinly veiled behind the excuse of making your ship harder to target.
Conjecture and illogical. It is only a guess at the motivation of why harvesters were present at the battle. Based on the negative tone of the post and the motivation to perceive the situation as poorly as possible, the post assume foul when accident could just as easily be the reason. Short of real evidence, not conjecture, it's best to fall back of the basic foundations of all fair justice systems:
Innocent Until Proven Guilty.
Anything else?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Mitchman
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Posted - 2003.09.08 07:45:00 -
[74]
Quote:
Unfortunatly with the way existing game mechanics are, this is an issue you can not avoid.
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
There are ways to fix this without the client having to notify the server it's done loading. Who sends the data? The SERVER. Who will know when the client is done loading the data? The SERVER.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.09.08 07:58:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 08/09/2003 07:58:52
Quote:
Quote:
Unfortunatly with the way existing game mechanics are, this is an issue you can not avoid.
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
There are ways to fix this without the client having to notify the server it's done loading. Who sends the data? The SERVER. Who will know when the client is done loading the data? The SERVER.
How will the SERVER know when the client is done loading the data unless the CLIENT tells it so? At which point, the game's integrity is compromised by opening a vulnerability to hacking.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Mitchman
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Posted - 2003.09.08 08:25:00 -
[76]
The server has a buffer of data waiting to be sent to the client. When that buffer is empty, it will know that the client has received or is about to receive that last bit of data. There might be a second delay or so for the client to catch up, depending on the size of the buffer and the speed of the connection (which is also possible to calculate on the server side), but that shouldn't matter that much.
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Macumba
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Posted - 2003.09.08 08:37:00 -
[77]
Randomise the jump points. I don't mean just half-a-dozen points around a planet. Have an area of open space in each system as the jump area and have random points with *insert distance here* between each one.
Theres enough room out there. Use it.
I can't believe that people are still trying to justify killing people before they've even sync'd. Even if it's not an exploit (which lets face it, it isn't if you go by CCP's rules) and just poor game design, how lame a tactic can you get?
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.08 08:38:00 -
[78]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
That's the ONLY way?
Why not just make it so player's ship does not appear in the target sector until the client tells the host the he is done loading? There is no need for invulnerability here, just make it so that the client tells the host "okay, I'm ready" and THEN the ship appears to both the client and host at basically the same time.
Hackable. You give that type of control to the client and someone will find a real way to exploit it through packet sniffing and playing with the signal being sent.
The client cannot be trusted in these games for anything except displaying information from the server.
wrong!! read my other info...
you can use smart ways... use prediction's based on client's ability!! that can be done server side VERY EASY just do some checks and calc's to see what the persons SYSTEM CAN DO...
taht can be stored on server side and checked X time...
then that prediction can be used to orgonize the LOAD TIME and the APEARING OF A SHIP...
PPL ALWAYS THINK of ideas... that is my job 
maybe some of those classes i took payed off a bit
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.09.08 08:39:00 -
[79]
Edited by: j0sephine on 08/09/2003 08:41:25
"Irrelevant. One of the 4 locations where combat is possible in Eve and all 4 suffer from the same issue: the client has to load the data for the area."
... If i remember correctly, the Big Issue of Previous Month[TM] was, after fresh patch people with low security rating were dying in droves and losing their precious uber-ships upon warping in the empire space, because out of the 4 locations where combat is possible in Eve only 1 suffer from extra quirk: there's no invulnerability timer when entering new system... which was resulting in fireworks and free pod rides well before the screen would manage to refresh for the arriving person, without slightest chance to react?..
BH Latro:
"Unfortunatly with the way existing game mechanics are, this is an issue you can not avoid.
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target."
... Is it really the only way? One thing that's easy to notice is, when you use directional scan to check for possible presence(s) at the gate, the result is usually available within couple of seconds or even less, and contains pretty much all that's needed -- all objects present, their types and their positions in space.
The difference seemingly being, the client doesn't have to load all the data needed for the 3d visualisation... so just curious if there was any tests made how it'd affect the performance if the 3d data wasn't loaded on entering the new location, but only when it'd be actually needed, i.e. upon some ship getting within visual range....
"The true question to ask here is using a tactic that prevents your target from being capable of responding using current game mechanics an exploit? Of course add to this that you are aware of that "
I don't think it's really an exploit... (classifying it as one would mean it didn't occur to the developers people would do such thing as camping the warp-in spots... and 'tis just silly) But on the other hand it just sounds like combat equivalent of ore stealing --minimal risk being not a result of one's skill, but purely of the game mechanics-- hardly something to brag about. :s
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.09.08 08:40:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Drutort on 08/09/2003 08:48:43
Quote:
The server has a buffer of data waiting to be sent to the client. When that buffer is empty, it will know that the client has received or is about to receive that last bit of data. There might be a second delay or so for the client to catch up, depending on the size of the buffer and the speed of the connection (which is also possible to calculate on the server side), but that shouldn't matter that much.
im glad that someone knows what they are talking and no i dont have a major in CS LOL
i was going but changed my mind coming up with ideas and improvements is my field as i found out hehe
fact your system is fixed... your connection well is 90% fixed it wouldnÆt change too much...
thus you can use prediction to do your stuff... without giving control to the client!!
there really is no hack that i could think that could work here... since you only have X time when it would be checked...and if someone tried to some how spoof a system there is a MIN REQ FOR THIS GAME... so it cant be lower then that... and mostly that would do no good for someone... it would at most only buy a few sec for someone.... but that is a lot better then what is going on right now...
I would also req the user to have on client side saved his computer specs then the server can match the system specs client side and based on the calc that the server did with acceptable % error it should be within a tolerance
you people who say there is no way... should really just shove it... just because you dont see a way doesnÆt mean there isnt one... there is always a way it is a matter of time and the question will you take the harder approach or the cheaper faster way...
and in the past looks like CCP has taken the CHEAPER way... which is not expectable for A MMO!!!
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 08:50:00 -
[81]
Quote:
Edited by: j0sephine on 08/09/2003 08:41:25
"Irrelevant. One of the 4 locations where combat is possible in Eve and all 4 suffer from the same issue: the client has to load the data for the area."
... If i remember correctly, the Big Issue of Previous Month[TM] was, after fresh patch people with low security rating were dying in droves and losing their precious uber-ships upon warping in the empire space, because out of the 4 locations where combat is possible in Eve only 1 suffer from extra quirk: there's no invulnerability timer when entering new system... which was resulting in fireworks and free pod rides well before the screen would manage to refresh for the arriving person, without slightest chance to react?..
Actually that situation isn't the same. There are no immunity timers for NPCs. Lowsecs got pod rides for undocking too. NPC rats in roid belts can and have lock/fire immediately on ships that land in the middle of them. Corpmate lost a Rupture to 4 Marauders in about 10 seconds (his guess).
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 08:58:00 -
[82]
"Actually that situation isn't the same. There are no immunity timers for NPCs."
... Allow me to clarify it for myself; so, if i enter a new system and there's someone other PC sitting at the drop point, they cannot lock on me for those default 10 secs, or can they? (from what Molly wrote in this thread it'd seem that yes, they can target me immediately...)
|
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 09:10:00 -
[83]
Quote:
"Actually that situation isn't the same. There are no immunity timers for NPCs."
... Allow me to clarify it for myself; so, if i enter a new system and there's someone other PC sitting at the drop point, they cannot lock on me for those default 10 secs, or can they? (from what Molly wrote in this thread it'd seem that yes, they can target me immediately...)
They can target you. I just said the situation you pointed out was different as it was NPC action. NPCs don't follow the same rules players do.
As for the jump in points, it has existed since beta. It did undergo a change from a single jump in point for each solar system to several. The more astute people will note that currently the game tells you where you will be landing on the other side of the jump when you begin to jump (tho that's not always correct). So the information isn't some massive secret that m0o just discovered.
What these people are attempting to do (and they know almost full well what they're doing) is eliminate any and all chances to be attacked in this game. Short of lag or being afk (), a blockade can't stop anyone from turning around and jumping. Short of lag, nothing can stop a person that undocked from turning around and docking. Because of lag, everyone knows the instant someone warps into a roid belt, giving non-afk people plenty of time to warp out.
I can't wait to see the crying when cloaking hits the servers
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Macumba
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 09:20:00 -
[84]
*******s Jash. I don't mind being attacked at all, I'd just like to be able to respond.
You don't get that option when you're attacked on jump-in.
The only reason people are using drones to slow the client down is because cargo containers would make it too obvious.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 09:42:00 -
[85]
Quote:
*******s Jash. I don't mind being attacked at all, I'd just like to be able to respond.
You don't get that option when you're attacked on jump-in.
The only reason people are using drones to slow the client down is because cargo containers would make it too obvious.
Yeah, drones add absolutely no value to a battleship fight. Ask Jade Constatine
You may want a chance to respond. You might actually stick around and slug it out with the force waiting. I might as well, depending on the forces arrayed against me.
But if it looks too ugly and I have a half a sec to warp, I'm gone. At least I can admit that wholeheartedly. And that's what the immunity timers give people: the half second to warp.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
UnIQu3
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 10:13:00 -
[86]
The drones is quite helpfull, first they causes confuse! and then others have problems target you! but then the new sad thing is that drones is used to cause lag :/ not good hope it get fixed!
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Macumba
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 10:17:00 -
[87]
Context Jash. Try it some time.
People use drones to lag the client. End of story. The fact that people have been found with clouds of mining drones around them at jump gates or jump-in points makes it blatently obvious what they're up to. The only reason mining drones or cheap drones are used is because they can carry a lot of them and because (as has been proved in this thread) you can turn around and say "They're only drones. What are you going to do? Ban drones now? OMG OMG OMG". Drones are less obvious than cargo containers.
I'm not saying drones are exclusively used for lag, but they help a lot. When people use mining drones in combat then its blatantly obvious why they're there.
So, no, don't ban drones. Ban the *****s who blatantly take the **** out of the mechanics of the game.
"PVP = griefing" Papa Smurf |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 10:18:00 -
[88]
"and then others have problems target you!"
... what problems?.. o.O
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Rust
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 10:28:00 -
[89]
The only reason I can see for using mining drones is to lag, because you can fly a lot more miners than heavy drones that could be of use in a fight.
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Athule Snanm
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 10:41:00 -
[90]
Ultimately it's a nasty situation caused by the game mechanics and as more and more people catch on to using drones in large numbers (which are in fact a must have in a battleship anyway) it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.
The only solution as things stands at the moment is to ban drones - which obviously isn't an option as it also hurts people not fighting in groups. My overall opinion is that this isn't an exploit, but it's a game killing behaviour from the mechanics of the game.
As to the appearance of harvester drones, if they were placed for lag inducing then yes it is clearly an exploit. However I think it's far more likely someone had a mix of drones and chose 'launch all'.
Currently EVE's anti-radar mechanics have in fact created a radar in reverse, where the fleet camping has a free chance to destroy any incoming ships with no possibility of the opposing force being able to retaliate or escape. My solution? Probably unworkable, but here goes. Server sends a public key code to the client. All data is transferred encrypted, when complete the immunity timer clicks in. The server sends the second part of the key and the client uses it to decrypt the data.
Another possible solution would be for user set warp/jump point angle and distance. This has the problem of being limited by the grid system in the game, if that wasn't the case the chances of locking/scrambling/jamming/shooting all before the incomer can load would be much smaller.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
DeeCo
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 11:06:00 -
[91]
you can see whats going to happen shortly :-
1) When you jump you are put in a state of flux and left immune till your client loads, be it a week or more, then we get the Im stuck petitions.
2) when exiting a station, the same rule applies.
3) CTD's - caused by your own hardware and crappy drivers, ( nothing to do with CCP, even though you only ever CTD within Eve). so that when you next login you have the "dreaded Entering space syndrome", see 1 and 2
4)Drones will be classed as an exploit and removed entirely from game, due to the loading times.
5)When warping into new space you will have 30 minutes of Immunity, just in case theres something to lag you out, or you end up with case 1, which would seem the better option.
6) Use the damn map and stay the f*** away from the area's of high kills, IMHO the map STATS are an Exploit, you can prepare for attacks in advance. ( ie hide in dead space )
7) Leave us alone, and we leave you alone, well not totally true "we like to kill stuff" (stavr0s). Mind you, you could allways mine in your fluffeh warm Empire space, thx to all the moaners and whiners, CCP made this a warm place with your mothers milk on tap. As usual theres a sting in the tail too, the Concorde now blow you up for fighting, be it accident or not :)
8)The game mechanics and real world physical mechanics dont allow large player based battles to take place.
So what can we do to fix this ?
A: Lets make it all turn-based, with text instead of gfx and play it on a mobile phone.
Click my sig for stats
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Sputnik Stan
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Posted - 2003.09.08 11:35:00 -
[92]
It seems to me that the best solution to solve the lag/loading-from-warp-and-or-jump problems that appears in this thread is the one that can be summed up as "Not appear till ship can be under control". Apologies to the person who suggested this, I cannot remember who it was.
From a playing point of view, this would result in more time spent looking at loading bars. However, what would you want to see ? A program in which weeks of work may be undone by client/server lag ... or a client that makes you wait a length of time, maybe a time that streches into minutes for some .... then POW ... you're into the action.
It is gratifying to know that someone from the developement team has taken the time to respond to this, which is in my view, a desperatly important issue. Unfortunately, I failed to see their response in this thread. Perhaps I missed it.
I know I am not alone in reducing my playing time of eve for the reasons of lag. I find myself more and more reluctant to play a game where I own a ship bouncing around on a rubber band by merely issuing a command to stop ship. Eve is becoming more and more a joke in my mind as the lag and reports from other players of lag, ctd, jump-in and other forms of unfair ship loss continue to file in.
Please, somebody from the development team, respond in this thread to assure me, and others like me, that it is really is worth continuing to subscribe. I.e., that you are looking into these lag issues and that they are actually solvable. Your lack of response only goes to prove to me that you have no solution to these issues.
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Grimmacker
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:10:00 -
[93]
CCP please respond to this, do u have any ideas to cope with this game killing problem?
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Karif
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Posted - 2003.09.08 12:21:00 -
[94]
But if it looks too ugly and I have a half a sec to warp, I'm gone. At least I can admit that wholeheartedly. And that's what the immunity timers give people: the half second to warp.
It also gives the 10 battleships that jumped at the same time to launch combat drones, hardeners, boosters, ECCM, begin targeting, etc.
Every last one of those ships was destroyed before the pilots had control. I bet that was real fun.
I R CLICKY BUTTON AND TEH SHIP EXPLODES!@"!!!ONEONE!!
Incedentally running away is not an exploit..
The fact it is easy to run away is another problem entirely and not related to this in the slightest.
Nor is the whole "combat drone vs mining drone" the issue.
This isn't about some assinine semantic argument like "Oh, how can I tell you have control of your ship" since you are never concerned with this fact in the first place.
The fact is, it is possible to ambush other players at jump-in points and have them in pods before they regain control of their ship. The mechanics allow this. This does not enhance or improve gameplay or player entertainment. It strips it completely totally destroying any immersive sense of game reality.
Exploit? Who cares.
Fix it, and soon.
===============================
Deception + Information + Skill |
MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 13:58:00 -
[95]
Well... after all I can just say that during beta CCP has been told repeatedly that large battle cause lots of lag, especially when one group (10+ ships) warps to the other. TheyŠve also been told repeatedly that drones and such can cause loads of lag and cause players who warp in to the scene to lose control over their ship for up to a minute.
This is not the playerŠs fault, itŠs CCPs fault and IŠm very angry at them for not giving ANY statement on this so far.
You canŠt blame the players for using drones. You canŠt blame them for using strategy (waiting at jump-in points, staying at gates, etc) as this is what the game is all about. You canŠt blame them for shooting at incoming ships as soon as they show up.
BUT YOU CAN BLAME CCP for not fixing this **** during beta and you can blame them for not giving any statement on an issue that practically prevents larger battles in a game that was designed for those!
So stop going at each other all the time! Point your anger where it really belongs!
It doesnŠt matter what type of drones they used! It doesnŠt matter if they specifically used them to lag others!
What does matter is that the game-mechanics at this point are so weak that they cause huge amounts of lag.
People whoŠve been here in the old days probably still remember that thread on the old EvE-boards where CCP was talking about how they were going to make the game lag-free. The one where they said that the game mechanics are almost 100% deterministic so lag doesnŠt really play a role and stuff? Where is all that talk now? Where is the lag-free deterministic game system now? Really...
Again: Point your anger where it really belongs! You wonŠt help the game by constantly blaming and throwing **** at others because you lost a battle or whatever. But you CAN help the game if you point your finger at CCP for not giving statements on this in the first place.
If the game doesnŠt allow big battles to happen, then we can at least demand a statement from CCP to ask why these sort of things are happening and what is done to get rid of this bs.
Mai's Idealog |
cball
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 14:13:00 -
[96]
Quote:
Quote:
*******s Jash. I don't mind being attacked at all, I'd just like to be able to respond.
You don't get that option when you're attacked on jump-in.
The only reason people are using drones to slow the client down is because cargo containers would make it too obvious.
Yeah, drones add absolutely no value to a battleship fight. Ask Jade Constatine
You may want a chance to respond. You might actually stick around and slug it out with the force waiting. I might as well, depending on the forces arrayed against me.
But if it looks too ugly and I have a half a sec to warp, I'm gone. At least I can admit that wholeheartedly. And that's what the immunity timers give people: the half second to warp.
You can't be so thick headed as to continue to not understand that the LAG induced EXCEEDS the immunity time???(I could be wrong...)
Finding an unintended flaw in the game mechanics and to continue to use it to gain an advantage, is an exploit.
This is a varient on the CC-lag inducement exploit that was "fixed".
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
|
cball
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:16:00 -
[97]
Quote:
Well... after all I can just say that during beta CCP has been told repeatedly that large battle cause lots of lag, especially when one group (10+ ships) warps to the other. TheyŠve also been told repeatedly that drones and such can cause loads of lag and cause players who warp in to the scene to lose control over their ship for up to a minute.
This is not the playerŠs fault, itŠs CCPs fault and IŠm very angry at them for not giving ANY statement on this so far.
You canŠt blame the players for using drones. You canŠt blame them for using strategy (waiting at jump-in points, staying at gates, etc) as this is what the game is all about. You canŠt blame them for shooting at incoming ships as soon as they show up.
BUT YOU CAN BLAME CCP for not fixing this **** during beta and you can blame them for not giving any statement on an issue that practically prevents larger battles in a game that was designed for those!
So stop going at each other all the time! Point your anger where it really belongs!
It doesnŠt matter what type of drones they used! It doesnŠt matter if they specifically used them to lag others!
What does matter is that the game-mechanics at this point are so weak that they cause huge amounts of lag.
People whoŠve been here in the old days probably still remember that thread on the old EvE-boards where CCP was talking about how they were going to make the game lag-free. The one where they said that the game mechanics are almost 100% deterministic so lag doesnŠt really play a role and stuff? Where is all that talk now? Where is the lag-free deterministic game system now? Really...
Again: Point your anger where it really belongs! You wonŠt help the game by constantly blaming and throwing **** at others because you lost a battle or whatever. But you CAN help the game if you point your finger at CCP for not giving statements on this in the first place.
If the game doesnŠt allow big battles to happen, then we can at least demand a statement from CCP to ask why these sort of things are happening and what is done to get rid of this bs.
To continue to use the "bug" is a violation of the ELUA (the rules), and should be punished as such, by banning the offenders, PERMA-BAN
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
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Cymoril
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:16:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Cymoril on 08/09/2003 14:17:40
Quote:
Quote:
:
Quote:
:
The only way to fix this issue is to make the invul timer linked to the client state, ie the client controls and responds to the server letting the server know that the clients computer now has full control of the ship and the invul field is taken off and ships can now target.
That's the ONLY way?
Why not just make it so player's ship does not appear in the target sector until the client tells the host the he is done loading? There is no need for invulnerability here, just make it so that the client tells the host "okay, I'm ready" and THEN the ship appears to both the client and host at basically the same time.
Hackable. You give that type of control to the client and someone will find a real way to exploit it through packet sniffing and playing with the signal being sent.
The client cannot be trusted in these games for anything except displaying information from the server.
HACKABLE?
Go ahead and hack it. All you could do is tell the host that your client is not ready, and all THAT would do is tell the host not to load you into the sector. What good would this do?
Hack away, won't do any good. |
dalman
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Posted - 2003.09.08 14:16:00 -
[99]
Who doesn't understand that if you have up to a minute in loading time, you'll find your ship almost destroyed when you finally load?
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 14:16:00 -
[100]
Maybe if CCP would make their loggin better and made official statements on whats exploit or not, they could go on a banning spree... And get rid of people who exploit.
We all hate cheaters, why allow it?
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 14:21:00 -
[101]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 08/09/2003 14:22:05
Maybe. But does banning those people help the poor game mechanics?
Simple answer is: No.
IŠm not saying I do like exploiters or something. I pretty much hate em as anyone else in here. All IŠm saying is that all this smacktalk about exploiting does NOT help the game.
In fact IŠm happy that this whole thing came up because it might actually lead CCP to fixing this bs anytime soon so we can start fighting without having to worry about this **** all the time. ItŠs just not fun anymore...
Mai's Idealog |
Jash Illian
|
Posted - 2003.09.08 15:03:00 -
[102]
Quote:
Context Jash. Try it some time.
People use drones to lag the client. End of story. The fact that people have been found with clouds of mining drones around them at jump gates or jump-in points makes it blatently obvious what they're up to. The only reason mining drones or cheap drones are used is because they can carry a lot of them and because (as has been proved in this thread) you can turn around and say "They're only drones. What are you going to do? Ban drones now? OMG OMG OMG". Drones are less obvious than cargo containers.
I'm not saying drones are exclusively used for lag, but they help a lot. When people use mining drones in combat then its blatantly obvious why they're there.
So, no, don't ban drones. Ban the *****s who blatantly take the **** out of the mechanics of the game.
End of your story. Thankfully, your story does not count. Cause when someone says "I did it to bluff you", I'm going to start laughing. Because you can't prove otherwise. You're not judge here and you need to stop believing you are.
Athule Snamm got it right. MaiLina KaTar got it right. But it's not what you want to be right so logic is wrong.
Cymoril:
Quote:
HACKABLE?
Go ahead and hack it. All you could do is tell the host that your client is not ready, and all THAT would do is tell the host not to load you into the sector. What good would this do?
Hack away, won't do any good.
I dunno. I don't think like someone that does that type of stuff. I've only seen the results. At a guess? A fleet building in null space and jumping in simultaneously because of TS.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Sourus
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Posted - 2003.09.08 15:13:00 -
[103]
Hackable? That's pure bull****. The only thing the client has to send is: I'm ready. Display me.
That message is no different than: Player pressed the fire button on weapon 1.
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Tilihad
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Posted - 2003.09.08 15:40:00 -
[104]
I agree with the earlier post of just make the jump-in point completely random. That would give us time to move on to the next cry of exploit.
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Daesdemona
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Posted - 2003.09.08 15:51:00 -
[105]
Good christ learn to quote sections....
-----------------------------------------------
Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?"
Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't"
----------------------------------------------- |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:23:00 -
[106]
To clear up a misconception here: there is a 10 sec invulnerability timer upon warping into a system. However, most of these 10 secs are gone in the loading process, and it might seem there is none at all.
People with fast computers will load before the invulnerability has timed out though, and its fairly easy to check. Ive had this verified about 20 systems in row a couple of times hunting tti the 20 instajump systems down from venal :/
Also, wether this is an exploit or not, decide for yourself. Here is the definition that matters in this case.
...To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. ty dictionary.com...
Using a game mechanic flaw to be able to kill someone who's still loading, I consider that unethical at least.
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Siris
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Posted - 2003.09.08 16:26:00 -
[107]
fix, ban, reimburse.
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.09.08 23:52:00 -
[108]
cball you are an idiot.
Malina's points are all very valid.
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Jorev
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Posted - 2003.09.09 00:23:00 -
[109]
In EQ, camping the zone in lines on the PvP servers was a bannable offense because it is an exploit of game mechanics.
There was no workaround for the devs since the zone ins needed to be fixed points because of the mobs which roamed the zones, making it a death trap to randomize entry.
In EvE, the devs can create a workaround by coding enough random non roid field/stargate/planet locations, to make camping too difficult, but the likelihood of this being fixed any time soon is doubtful.
Until then, the GMs need to make it a threat of banning like they did with previous exploits, in order to make people stop abusing the game mechanics.
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cball
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Posted - 2003.09.09 00:46:00 -
[110]
Quote:
cball you are an idiot.
Malina's points are all very valid.
Insults and flames from a multi time QUITER.
...well, at least I am not a quiter, and if a quiter wants to think I am an idiot, fine, as if the opinion has any merit what so ever...
...can we say Troll molly, we thought you could...(now we know where all that hot air was coming from...)
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
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Arathmon
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Posted - 2003.09.09 01:28:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Arathmon on 09/09/2003 01:28:44
And the topic goes on and on... spinning further and further away from what I meant it to be.
In case some of you have forgotten in all your points, counter points, flames, insults and finger pointing... here is my original post. Read it. Understand where I am coming from and what I am hoping to accomplish.
Quote:
Alright now, the new pseudo exploit has hit the streets people, grab it while it's hot!
If you're a forum ***** you know what I'm talking about, if not, pay close attention. Recently people have been waiting at jump-in points in systems, deploying all the drones they can, waiting for unsuspecting victims to jump in, then podkilling them before their client even loads.
Now, with all the namecalling and finger pointing going on, I'm asking for anyone who feels they have been adversely affected by said exploit to actually file a petition ingame asking a GM to look into it.
Somewhat noteworthy in this tactic is using harvester mining drones in combat for the sole purpose of lag, thinly veiled behind the excuse of making your ship harder to target.
I'm hoping CCP will come down on one side or other in this issue, since currently this 'tactic' is causing many people grief.
---------------
I used to be in the FA. I like cookies. Eve Radio is teh pwn. |
Homo Erectus
|
Posted - 2003.09.09 01:33:00 -
[112]
there is no skill in camping entry points. anyone who does this is admitting they cannot win using their brains, but only using the inadequecies of the game itself.
this is like when stav/m0o intentionally used a sensor booster to cause ctd's.
you know better.
anyone who defends the usage of this crap is a moron. (fact) |
Stavros
|
Posted - 2003.09.09 04:15:00 -
[113]
yawn....
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Master Scy
|
Posted - 2003.09.09 05:17:00 -
[114]
Quote:
Quote:
HACKABLE?
Go ahead and hack it. All you could do is tell the host that your client is not ready, and all THAT would do is tell the host not to load you into the sector. What good would this do?
Hack away, won't do any good.
I dunno. I don't think like someone that does that type of stuff. I've only seen the results. At a guess? A fleet building in null space and jumping in simultaneously because of TS.
In lag free environments well coordinated gangs could already jump in within 1 second of each other... I've seen it.
But yes, if it's client dependant someone will find a way to abuse it sooner or later...
-----------------------------
You think Marco Polo said
"Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ?
-Indigo Seqi
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Korben Dallas
|
Posted - 2003.09.09 07:06:00 -
[115]
Quote:
dude ur lame, congrats.
kettle...pot..
Aikon-Systems
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.09.09 07:12:00 -
[116]
Quote:
yawn....
Getting tired of everyone pointing out what a lamer tactic this is, maybe?
Take a nap, maybe tommorow you'll be able to fight someone who has actually loaded the system you're in and can fire back or move around a bit - you know like a real game instead of this BS you call a "victory."
I thought you guys were supposed to be powerful? This tactic is embarassing for anyone who uses it.
lame-o
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Sputnik Stan
|
Posted - 2003.09.10 04:18:00 -
[117]
Quote:
yawn....
thanks for the bump
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Homo Erectus
|
Posted - 2003.09.10 04:41:00 -
[118]
"yawn..." = "you're right frst" |
cball
|
Posted - 2003.09.10 04:56:00 -
[119]
Quote:
there is no skill in camping entry points. anyone who does this is admitting they cannot win using their brains, but only using the inadequecies of the game itself.
this is like when stav/m0o intentionally used a sensor booster to cause ctd's.
you know better.
anyone who defends the usage of this crap is a moron. (fact)
harsh, but true...
...fear the evil monkey in your hanger...
|
Rath Amon
|
Posted - 2003.09.10 08:00:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Rath Amon on 10/09/2003 08:02:38
Most of the people who play this game have a neutral impact on it. They do what's expected.
A rare few have a good impact on it. They volunteer for Polaris or write interesting roleplaying fiction or contribute something worthwhile.
There are also a few who use any available loophole to 'win' and they have a negative impact on the game. Dropping non-combat drones to create lag is a cheap tactic and should be rewarded by bans.
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