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Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
145
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:09:00 -
[271] - Quote
Quote:ITT we also learn that Neutron Blasters can get 1314dps at 39km. Void gets the 1314dps, and Iron gives you 14.4+12.5km range.
Hilarious, you're so witty.
Quote:Hmmm.... A 3% CPU implant costs 18mil. Why, let's spend 18mil on the Cane! 1% projectile damage: 1.7mil 1% faster ROF: 1.2mil 3% armour: 10.5mil Monocle fund: 4.6mil
Suddenly, my wonderful Cane has 671dps and a 71k ehp tank! Marvellous!
Okay, so... Use a t2 ANP, and trade 2.5k tank for 18mil? I don't know, it's your choice. This is why they teach you those problem solving skills in elementary school.
Quote:Yes, because it fits with 425s.
....With AWU 5. Either way, the difference between 425's and 220's is about 20 DPS. Do you want me to add 20 dps to my original post to make your e-peen happy?
Quote:2. Myrm being attacked by multifrequency can tank 533dps. Myrm being attacked by fusion can tank 349dps. Wrong!
Stop failfitting and fit an explosive hardener. I have never seen an active Myrm which doesn't do this.
Quote:2. Let's calculate how long it takes for a Cane to catch a Harby! Let's say they start at 24km. Harby is trying to keep distance by MWDing away at 896m/s (heat). Cane is in pursuit, at 1025m/s (heat). Relative speed is 185m/s for the Cane. 21 seconds: 19km remains. Cane has dealt 7875 damage. Harby has dealt 8820 damage. Harby will now be in optimal. 59 seconds: 12km remains. Cane has dealt 25450 damage. Harby has dealt 28960 damage. Cane begins reloading. Both stop overheating. Cane has 129m/s speed advantage. 69 seconds: 11km remains. Cane has dealt 25450 damage. Harby has dealt 34210 damage. Both use their webs. Harby MWDs at 372m/s. Cane MWDs at 452m/s. Cane is 80m/s faster. 94 seconds: Cane has dealt 39450 damage. Harby has dealt 47710 damage. Harby used its scram. Cane can't get any closer. Both overheat their guns. It's now 675dps of the Cane vs 600dps of the Harby. The Cane is firing fusion, so the damage-modified 70k ehp Harby has 30k left. The Harby is firing scorch, so the damage-modified 86k ehp Cane has 39k left. It will take another 65 seconds for the Harby to kill the Cane. It will take another 44 seconds for the Cane to kill the Harby. Cane wins.
Correction: with heat, it's 707 DPS of the 'cane verus 690 of the Harby. And people accuse me of skewing my EFT numbers...
Regardless, though, I still see that you're comparing the two ships in a 1v1. If the "better ship" could be determined by which one wins a 1v1, then all people would ever fly are Rattlesnakes because of their 1500+ dps passive tank. Running out of quotes, so I'll now use quotation marks:
"4. Here are the battleships faster than a Harby (896m/s): Shield Raven with 1 nano: 936m/s Shield Scorp with 1 nano (lol): 913m/s Shield gank Domi: 1005m/s Dualrep Domi: 913m/s Armour gank Hyperion: 905m/s Dualrep Hyperion: 919m/s Shield gank Hyperion: 1041m/s Armour gank Megatron: 900m/s Shield gank Megathron: 1052m/s Shield Maelstrom with 1 nano: 913m/s Shield gank Tempest: 1067m/s Armour gank Tempest: 914m/s Shield gank Typhoon: 1154m/s Armour gank Typhoon: 989m/s Shield gank Vindi: 1109m/s Armour gank Vindi: 950m/s Shield gank Mach: 1505m/s Armour gank Mach: 1287m/s Shield Rattlesnake with 1 nano: 936m/s"
I was under the impression we were talking Minmatar battleships, as that's what everyone is calling "OP." in fact, half of this list is Gallente.
I'd hasten to consider any Mael faster than a Harb, since most Maels don't fit nanos, and hell, many don't even fit MWDs. And Machs don't count because they're OP as hell. Angel does need a nerf, but not AC's in general.
"1. Good luck even getting in range to scramble, neut and web it! How are you going to catch a frigate in a Harby? 896m/s MWD speed. 11.2s align time. 7.9s lock time. A Cane, on the other hand, has 1025m/s MWD speed, 10.5s align and 4.7s lock time with a sebo. It doesn't need a cap booster, so I fit my armour Canes with a sebo. The cookie 200mm Rifter ABs at 968m/s. An armour Cane is faster than a Rifter."
The cookie cutter 200mm Rifter fights at close range. And since Harbingers with hammerheads can get "soloed by rifters," they will be right up close to you, amirite?
"1. Armour Cane is only 13m/s slower than a HML Drake. It just needs to surprise-overheat the MWD and escape. Alternatively, it may fly towards the Drake as the Drake is approaching, switch to EMP, and proceed to proceed at a high enough speed get within 10km and melt the poor Drake's face. A Harby will either try to overheat its MWD to escape, and get caught out due to not being significantly faster than the Drake, or turn around and attempt to melt the Drake, but the Drake will make things a bit awkward and turn the other direction before Harby gets in web range."
So the Hurricane either A) Gets close enough to kill the Drake before taking enough HML damage that the fight is over (even if the Hurricane gets close enough, it might already be too late to save the fight, depending on when this happens) B) Escapes the HML Drake without getting a kill C) Dies slowly and painfully to HMLs
OTOH, the Harbinger either A) Drives off the Drake with scorch B) Catches the Drake and slays it.
So the Hurricane might die, but also has a slightly higher chance of winning. The Harb will pretty much will not die unless it is terrible, but has a slightly lower chance of winning.
Of course, we're still going on the assumption that every fight is a 1v1. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
88
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:14:00 -
[272] - Quote
New boosters do not have side effects. Any Minmatar want an extra 11% falloff to go with their TE? How about a 7.5% reduced sig? You can take two boosters at once now. |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
145
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:16:00 -
[273] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:New boosters do not have side effects. Any Minmatar want an extra 11% falloff to go with their TE? How about a 7.5% reduced sig? You can take two boosters at once now.
What, where?
And claiming that this only benefits Minmatar is stupid. |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
100
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:24:00 -
[274] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: - The probe changes were easy to miss and nobody commented on the impending demise of almost all long range combat. That's something that CCP has repeatedly referred to as "emergent gameplay".
So, in short: yes - CCP was oblivious in more than a few ways. This shouldn't really surprise you.
I guess I don't buy the idea nobody projected the demise of LR combat. I'm not shocked CCP did something with extra consequences, but to adamantly assert it was not considered would require you to show CCP acknowledging the problem after the fact and admitting that they had missed it.
It's fully within the realm of possibility they did know about this new "emergent gameplay," and simple decided it would affect only a small number of ships so the trade-off was worth it. It wouldn't be the first time. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:30:00 -
[275] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:New boosters do not have side effects. Any Minmatar want an extra 11% falloff to go with their TE? How about a 7.5% reduced sig? You can take two boosters at once now. What, where? And claiming that this only benefits Minmatar is stupid.
Does this mean there's an 11% no penalty optimal one too? MAH LAAAAZZZOOORRRSSSSS!!!! Bwahahahahaha...
-Liang |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:31:00 -
[276] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:New boosters do not have side effects. Any Minmatar want an extra 11% falloff to go with their TE? How about a 7.5% reduced sig? You can take two boosters at once now. What, where? And claiming that this only benefits Minmatar is stupid.
Sissi. Right now. Also the final build. Cards are on de table! Yeehaw! |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
89
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:33:00 -
[277] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Roosterton wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:New boosters do not have side effects. Any Minmatar want an extra 11% falloff to go with their TE? How about a 7.5% reduced sig? You can take two boosters at once now. What, where? And claiming that this only benefits Minmatar is stupid. Does this mean there's an 11% no penalty optimal one too? MAH LAAAAZZZOOORRRSSSSS!!!! Bwahahahahaha... -Liang
Clever girl. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:33:00 -
[278] - Quote
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: - The probe changes were easy to miss and nobody commented on the impending demise of almost all long range combat. That's something that CCP has repeatedly referred to as "emergent gameplay".
So, in short: yes - CCP was oblivious in more than a few ways. This shouldn't really surprise you.
I guess I don't buy the idea nobody projected the demise of LR combat. I'm not shocked CCP did something with extra consequences, but to adamantly assert it was not considered would require you to show CCP acknowledging the problem after the fact and admitting that they had missed it. It's fully within the realm of possibility they did know about this new "emergent gameplay," and simple decided it would affect only a small number of ships so the trade-off was worth it. It wouldn't be the first time.
Now you're just arguing to argue. I'm done with the conversation.
-Liang |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
145
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 05:42:00 -
[279] - Quote
Quote:Now you're just arguing to argue. I'm done with the conversation.
-Liang
I really should have tried this line at some point during the past two days. |
Firelord Ozai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 06:18:00 -
[280] - Quote
[quote=Roosterton]Quote:
And Machs don't count because they're OP as hell. Angel does need a nerf, but not AC's in general.
~all I can do is sigh... at the idea of nerf'ing anything that's beyond insurable...should never happen, EVER |
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Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 06:19:00 -
[281] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:1) I'm poking fun at the EFT debate raging around us.
Uh, OK.
Quote:2) No. I'm saying since they control the engagement range they should have a more limited firepower arc. My Minmatar ship and you're Amarr ship start at 50km apart. I start burning at you at 3km/s. I'm under your guns in seconds. AND I've been hitting you the whole time during the approach. What's wrong with this picture?
Wrong with this picture? The part where you're trying to get a Vagabond "under" a Zealot's guns
Ruah Piskonit wrote:Its a pointless debate really, you can keep flying your proj. ships thinking you are having it tough all you want - its not tough - its easy.
I never said Minmatar had it tough. Only Gallente blaster boats have it tough. My argument was that projectiles were balanced compared to pulse. What autocannons have in flexibility, they lose in damage projection and once you move past solo/small gang scenarios, damage projection is all that matters. There are exemptions and tricks you can use in medium-gangs (15-50) but overall the meta is thoroughly dominated by Scorch's damage projection. |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
145
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 07:34:00 -
[282] - Quote
Firelord Ozai wrote:[quote=Roosterton] Quote:
And Machs don't count because they're OP as hell. Angel does need a nerf, but not AC's in general.
~all I can do is sigh... at the idea of nerf'ing anything so far beyond insurable...should never happen, EVER
What... Why?
So supercaps didn't need a nerf either, then?
|
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 07:54:00 -
[283] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:New boosters do not have side effects. Any Minmatar want an extra 11% falloff to go with their TE? How about a 7.5% reduced sig? You can take two boosters at once now.
You could always take two (or even three!) boosters, assuming they were different slots. That's not new. |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
320
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 12:07:00 -
[284] - Quote
Quote:Okay, so... Use a t2 ANP, and trade 2.5k tank for 18mil? I don't know, it's your choice. This is why they teach you those problem solving skills in elementary school. Wait, what? Auxiliary Nano Pump? I've fit too many active armour tanks recently. I'm missing something. You spend 18mil on an implant, so I decide to spend 18mil on skill hardwirings.
Quote:1. Stop failfitting and fit an explosive hardener. I have never seen an active Myrm which doesn't do this.
2. Correction: with heat, it's 707 DPS of the 'cane verus 690 of the Harby. And people accuse me of skewing my EFT numbers.. 1. Personal preference. Something like 100 more dps, or an extra module which is ineffective against all but, let's face it, Hurricanes?
2. I calculated the DPS using pyfa's graphing function to account for falloff. You know, something an EFT-warrior wouldn't do. Shiny DPS numbers are marred by falloff. In the Harby's case, Multi brings it into falloff. Oh dear.
Quote:Regardless, though, I still see that you're comparing the two ships in a 1v1. If the "better ship" could be determined by which one wins a 1v1, then all people would ever fly are Rattlesnakes because of their 1500+ dps passive tank. Words from an EFT-warrior. Are you an EFT-warrior? I hope not. Rattlesnakes may have a nice tank, but they're slow and incapable of catching things. Like non-Minnie ships!
Quote:I was under the impression we were talking Minmatar battleships, as that's what everyone is calling "OP." in fact, half of this list is Gallente. Want me to compare DPS and ranges instead? It's astonishing that Minmatar ships should be fast, given their huge range options.
Quote: The cookie cutter 200mm Rifter fights at close range. And since Harbingers with hammerheads can get "soloed by rifters," they will be right up close to you, amirite?
Two extremely competent Rifters could solo that Harby. Besides, a Harby won't be able to catch Rifters: which is my point. An armourcane will do a better job at catching frigs, though unlikely, and have greater survivability. This leads to my main point that you should un-EFT-warrior that fit of yours by having some Warriorss, so a Dram doesn't ruin your day. |
Desudes
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 13:23:00 -
[285] - Quote
You guys should try using more fraps footage to show your point, like actually showing gameplay. There are far too many opinions in these threads. Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
145
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:09:00 -
[286] - Quote
Quote:Wait, what? Auxiliary Nano Pump? I've fit too many active armour tanks recently. I'm missing something. You spend 18mil on an implant, so I decide to spend 18mil on skill hardwirings.
ANP = Adaptive Nano Plating
Quote:1. Personal preference. Something like 100 more dps, or an extra module which is ineffective against all but, let's face it, Hurricanes?
2. I calculated the DPS using pyfa's graphing function to account for falloff. You know, something an EFT-warrior wouldn't do. Shiny DPS numbers are marred by falloff. In the Harby's case, Multi brings it into falloff. Oh dear.
No, it's effective against anything Minmatar, and anything Caldari. And how is the Harby in falloff from the Myrm? They're both on top of each other, no?
Quote:Words from an EFT-warrior. Are you an EFT-warrior? I hope not. Rattlesnakes may have a nice tank, but they're slow and incapable of catching things. Like non-Minnie ships!
My point is, all your theories are based on perfect 1v1 scenarios, and you seem to act as though the better ship is determined by which one will win a 1v1. And basically nothing can kill a Rattler in a 1v1, so it must be the best ship.
Quote:Want me to compare DPS and ranges instead? It's astonishing that Minmatar ships should be fast, given their huge range options.
No, not really. They have less DPS up close than Gallente, and less DPS at range than Amarr. If they weren't fast enough to choose where they want to be, they'd end up as a crappy, unused, "jack of all trades" race. Sort of like pre-dominion.
Quote:Two extremely competent Rifters could solo that Harby. Besides, a Harby won't be able to catch Rifters: which is my point. An armourcane will do a better job at catching frigs, though unlikely, and have greater survivability. This leads to my main point that you should un-EFT-warrior that fit of yours by having some Warriorss, so a Dram doesn't ruin your day.
Do you kite with your 200mm plated Rifters? Because you seem to be implying that both *Two rifters can kill a Harby. *Two rifters can't be caught by a Harby.
If the rifters get close enough to to try and kill the Harby, then they're close enough for the harb to catch them. I still don't see how the two rifters are actually going to kill the Harby, but hey, these magical rifters if they're so good will probably be able to take down a Hurricane as well, in that case.
Additionally, a Dram kiting and orbiting at 20km will take around 100 DPS from scorch. If the Dram decides to close in, you web it, scram it, neut it, pew it, and put your hammerheads on it. (They should be able to keep up with him once he's webbed and scrammed.) You won't hit it very well, no, but you'll hit it well enough to ensure it doesn't solo.
Anyway, this now has little to do with you trying to find fallacies in my numbers (which started this whole thing) and more to do with you theorycrafting a bunch of scenarios, so I'm done here. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 16:48:00 -
[287] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote: Two extremely competent Rifters could solo that Harby. Besides, a Harby won't be able to catch Rifters: which is my point. An armourcane will do a better job at catching frigs, though unlikely, and have greater survivability. This leads to my main point that you should un-EFT-warrior that fit of yours by having some Warriorss, so a Dram doesn't ruin your day.
I'd actually be really surprised if a pair of Rifters soloed my Binger. I've been in that situation quite a few times too, and I've always won (mostly through them bugging out in low health, but sometimes with the kills too). And that was with Hammerheads. There's tricks for lowering transversal and those Rifters aren't exactly tough targets.
-Liang |
Tara Read
The Clean Up Crew S E D I T I O N
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 17:57:00 -
[288] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Tara Read wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Good greece, you need a lot of friends to take down a single Mach when one on one he would just eat you alive, that's what you seem not able to understand. Has for the second km I'd be rather embarrassed to figure an Harbringer can do same dps than my Megathron, nice stuff. I see now what you just did !! -Can't wait for next month top 20 to see all those brutix, myrmidon, dominix, megathrons, hyperions, deimost (Mr sry). Ho god, I can't wait! -My toon's feminine parts are already excited Aww aren't you cute. More like a moron but hey go ahead and fly that mach. And also It was a FLEET fight. Jesus. Many people were jammed. I suggest you head out to syndicate. Id love to see you in person. What a cry baby *****. People see their winmatar get smacked around and they cry and cry. Personally I don't care about the blaster changes that much. Ill fly gallente regardless. But hey maybe I m just stubborn. Sry sindicate if for starters, I only fight against big fish and real pvp guys, not eft warriors high sec pussies or 1 vs 10.
Check my sec status dumbass. I haven't been in high sec in years. LOL big fish and eft warriors. God your pathetic. Seriously. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2011.11.15 18:38:00 -
[289] - Quote
Tara Read wrote: Check my sec status dumbass. I haven't been in high sec in years. LOL big fish and eft warriors. God your pathetic. Seriously.
Your Evegate profile says: Security Status -9.5. :hi5: (Also, a use for Evegate? wtf?)
-Liang
Ed: Mine's a -9.6 off of mostly logi work. Daaaayyyuuummmm.... you have no idea how much effort it is to plunge your sec status that low off of assistance aggression. |
Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 03:34:00 -
[290] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:DarkAegix wrote: Two extremely competent Rifters could solo that Harby. Besides, a Harby won't be able to catch Rifters: which is my point. An armourcane will do a better job at catching frigs, though unlikely, and have greater survivability. This leads to my main point that you should un-EFT-warrior that fit of yours by having some Warriorss, so a Dram doesn't ruin your day.
I'd actually be really surprised if a pair of Rifters soloed my Binger. I've been in that situation quite a few times too, and I've always won (mostly through them bugging out in low health, but sometimes with the kills too). And that was with Hammerheads. There's tricks for lowering transversal and those Rifters aren't exactly tough targets. -Liang I once watched a pair of rifters get owned by a helios. Was pretty funny. |
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Desudes
Federal Defence Union Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 04:04:00 -
[291] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ed: Mine's a -9.6 off of mostly logi work. Daaaayyyuuummmm.... you have no idea how much effort it is to plunge your sec status that low off of assistance aggression.
Dang, those hits are tiny; took a day and 2 thorax hulls to get my alt to -6 or so because I caught some pods in a non-SeBo thorax. Podding is the fast track to cool flashing status. Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu? |
Tara Read
The Clean Up Crew S E D I T I O N
5
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 05:13:00 -
[292] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Tara Read wrote: Check my sec status dumbass. I haven't been in high sec in years. LOL big fish and eft warriors. God your pathetic. Seriously.
Your Evegate profile says: Security Status -9.5. :hi5: (Also, a use for Evegate? wtf?) -Liang Ed: Mine's a -9.6 off of mostly logi work. Daaaayyyuuummmm.... you have no idea how much effort it is to plunge your sec status that low off of assistance aggression.
You really are an idiot.... Or a fail troll. 2/10. |
Liang Nuren
Perkone Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 05:33:00 -
[293] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Tara Read wrote: Check my sec status dumbass. I haven't been in high sec in years. LOL big fish and eft warriors. God your pathetic. Seriously.
Your Evegate profile says: Security Status -9.5. :hi5: (Also, a use for Evegate? wtf?) -Liang Ed: Mine's a -9.6 off of mostly logi work. Daaaayyyuuummmm.... you have no idea how much effort it is to plunge your sec status that low off of assistance aggression. You really are an idiot.... Or a fail troll. 2/10.
I honestly have no idea why you're being hostile to me. I was simply providing information on your sec status and some minor commentary/fellow pirate love.
W T F
-Liang
Ed: I might have expected something along the lines of "Huh, even a single rat can set you back several fights on your trek to -10". Or :hi5: or ... well, anything but calling it a troll. :confused: |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
93
|
Posted - 2011.11.16 05:41:00 -
[294] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ed: I might have expected something along the lines of "Huh, even a single rat can set you back several fights on your trek to -10". Or :hi5: or ... well, anything but calling it a troll. :confused:
He quoted the wrong post? |
Tara Read
The Clean Up Crew S E D I T I O N
6
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 08:02:00 -
[295] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Tara Read wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Tara Read wrote: Check my sec status dumbass. I haven't been in high sec in years. LOL big fish and eft warriors. God your pathetic. Seriously.
Your Evegate profile says: Security Status -9.5. :hi5: (Also, a use for Evegate? wtf?) -Liang Ed: Mine's a -9.6 off of mostly logi work. Daaaayyyuuummmm.... you have no idea how much effort it is to plunge your sec status that low off of assistance aggression. You really are an idiot.... Or a fail troll. 2/10. I honestly have no idea why you're being hostile to me. I was simply providing information on your sec status and some minor commentary/fellow pirate love. W T F -Liang Ed: I might have expected something along the lines of "Huh, even a single rat can set you back several fights on your trek to -10". Or :hi5: or ... well, anything but calling it a troll. :confused:
Wrong post. Sorry. That and I've had like 10 hours of sleep over 3 days from work x//x
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Liang Nuren
Perkone Caldari State
76
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 08:14:00 -
[296] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:
Wrong post. Sorry. That and I've had like 10 hours of sleep over 3 days from work x//x
That sucks - I've definitely been there. I'm busy trying to cram some last minute work in to improve the Black Friday experience right now so I totally get it. I think this is going to be my third or fourth week of 110 hour work weeks (I took Friday -> Sunday off though - woot).
Drive safe if you're driving.
-Liang |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
203
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:25:00 -
[297] - Quote
Tara Read wrote:Wrong post. Sorry. That and I've had like 10 hours of sleep over 3 days from work x//x
Get back when you've got some sleep and stop posting lol stuff.
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