I enjoyed that Ripard's paranoia about the goonswarm menace made it into the minutes, twice.

On the player retention thing, I will point out that measuring "engagement" by measuring wether a player reached or don't an arbitrary milestone ingame is not exactly failproof.

How engaged is someone who only runs missions, but has run in excess of 1,500 missions over 5 years?

How engaged is someone who only mines rocks, but has done it for years upon years?

Is it engagement enough to write in excess of 400 posts at the forums each month? Spend like 20 hours a week writing and reading about EVE?

Of all the silly things CCP ever did to me, calling me "not engaged" because I never went to null or reached some other random milestone ingame may be of the silliest.

If I was not engaged, Dr Whatsyourname, I would not have given in excess of 1,000 euros to your company.

And now it turns I am not even deemed worthy of keeping as a customer because "I am not engaged enough" and my kind leaves too often.

That's pathetic.

I have a suggestion. If most people will not cross the social wall, or will not enter the sandbox nor miss it... have a revolutionary idea, free of charge: deliver them exactly what they want with a EVE twist rather than shake your head and say "too bad, they weren't engaged enough" as they leave.

dolan it showd you being present and talking with the balance people.

does this mean you are semi a balance guy... or is it more rise and fozz and the french dude (we love you frenchy) bounce ideas off of you cuss you are a comunity guy?

We actually have a pretty nuts amount of data on what "engagement" means (which I cut all mention of out of the minutes, because NDA, muahahahahah). Long story short is that all of those things are "engagement" that we measure. It may have gotten lost on my cutting room floor, but the whole idea is "what are things that people who stick around for a long time and help contribute to the universe like to do". People who post, mine, PvE, manufacture, etc. all fit that idea of "engagement".

Heck, check out my old KB, for a while pretty much all I did was post, and I considered myself to be a pretty engaged player.

Thanks for the clarification, I was pretty upset about that thing (and I readed the minutes' section three times before posting here, because I am... huh... engaged about them).

On the player retention thing, I will point out that measuring "engagement" by measuring wether a player reached or don't an arbitrary milestone ingame is not exactly failproof.

How engaged is someone who only runs missions, but has run in excess of 1,500 missions over 5 years?

How engaged is someone who only mines rocks, but has done it for years upon years?

Is it engagement enough to write in excess of 400 posts at the forums each month? Spend like 20 hours a week writing and reading about EVE?

Of all the silly things CCP ever did to me, calling me "not engaged" because I never went to null or reached some other random milestone ingame may be of the silliest.

If I was not engaged, Dr Whatsyourname, I would not have given in excess of 1,000 euros to your company.

And now it turns I am not even deemed worthy of keeping as a customer because "I am not engaged enough" and my kind leaves too often.

That's pathetic.

I have a suggestion. If most people will not cross the social wall, or will not enter the sandbox nor miss it... have a revolutionary idea, free of charge: deliver them exactly what they want with a EVE twist rather than shake your head and say "too bad, they weren't engaged enough" as they leave.

How about calling you "not engaged" because you've repeatedly stated in the plainest terms that you're not interested in what EVE has to offer and you're only here until the day Star Citizen launches?

On the player retention thing, I will point out that measuring "engagement" by measuring wether a player reached or don't an arbitrary milestone ingame is not exactly failproof.

How engaged is someone who only runs missions, but has run in excess of 1,500 missions over 5 years?

How engaged is someone who only mines rocks, but has done it for years upon years?

Is it engagement enough to write in excess of 400 posts at the forums each month? Spend like 20 hours a week writing and reading about EVE?

Of all the silly things CCP ever did to me, calling me "not engaged" because I never went to null or reached some other random milestone ingame may be of the silliest.

If I was not engaged, Dr Whatsyourname, I would not have given in excess of 1,000 euros to your company.

And now it turns I am not even deemed worthy of keeping as a customer because "I am not engaged enough" and my kind leaves too often.

That's pathetic.

I have a suggestion. If most people will not cross the social wall, or will not enter the sandbox nor miss it... have a revolutionary idea, free of charge: deliver them exactly what they want with a EVE twist rather than shake your head and say "too bad, they weren't engaged enough" as they leave.

You mention reading and posting on the forums a lot. I would guess that'd be one thing that sets you apart from other players with an otherwise similar in-game profile who flame out and leave due to lack of engagement.

And ccp rise noted that pve is the main thing people do in eve... interesting

Well, I am word-loomer and a story-teller at heart. Not reading and not writing about something that grabs my attention is not an option to me, and EVE is truly fascinating.... but improvable.

Right, but that's still an additional thing similar looking players may not have going for them.

Am kinda curious what prompted you to jump to the "My kind isn't worth keeping" conclusion though, because don't remember anything even close to that being said and a skim of that session's minutes confirms.

funny isn't it?

lol

but I guess that is why CCP seem reluctant when it comes to PVE. If they mess it up then that means a lot of **** off players.
Imagine a world where we have to live with more "Dinsdales"?

I'm a mostly PVE player myself, but sighh...

but yet drone assist has been in game for 10 years and is used by pve alot but yet some people in 0.0 stated to use it against the goons and now it has to be nerfed?

interesting.

Seagull continued with an overview of the future of the EVE/DUST link. This part of the
meeting was so NDA that all memory of it was surgically removed from the CSM before
they were allowed out of the room.

Anyway, I'm still relatively new

Ppl just need to relax and have a discussion

How did we jump from PVE to drone assist just now?

Anyway, I'm still relatively new but I'm sure there are countless examples of things that were in game for years but still have been iterated, changed or nerf. It's something that if you are an eve player that you should expect.

The most recent major item that was nerf was tech, and from what I heard it was in games for years.

But in my opinion, I like drone assist but I believe a compromise can be found. Ppl just need to relax and have a discussion about it and a solution can found.

Seems to be some pretty decent solution that have been put forth in the comment section of Jester's blog: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2013/12/drone-assist-needs-to-die-redux.html

Since the CSM is the New Eden's society representation of between 50k to 60k voters,
will we capsuleers have any influence how the CSM summit minutes will be overhauled ?

Since the CSM is the New Eden's society representation of between 50k to 60k voters,
will we capsuleers have any influence how the CSM summit minutes will be overhauled ?

Yup, I'm gonna post a ~thing~ pretty soon. It will be amongst a lot of things I am gonna be posting in the coming days. Fear my reign of terror.

Will it last more than a minute?

Will it last more than a minute?

Disappointed there's only one mention of POS'es still being broken. The idea that they only impact a small number of players is absurd. They only impact a small number of players BECAUSE THEY ARE BROKEN.

Only one tiny mention of CREST, and no more info on a possible release date or even what is currently holding up the release. Any news on this?

Please try and keep up - Ripard is the mindlessly obedient tool of the Goon nullsec cartel this week.

Just finished reading 80% of the minutes(Skipped some in the end) there are a few things I noticed:
1. I am glad I voted for Trebor(Don't leave D:)
2. Malcanis has the CSM tag, yet wasn't mentioned once in the minutes, why?
3. The suggested format in "Language Support and the CSM" is really confusing and cluttered to me, and I prefer the current way where it feels more like a good book I am reading than some boring history book.

Can't wait to see what the future brings, and great performance in the minutes by Trebor Daehdoow and Ripard Teg, and to a lesser extent mynnna, Mike Azariah and Ali Aras.

Good wishes to CCP Sunset and the baby! Lovely construction there Trebor!

1. I am glad I voted for Trebor(Don't leave D:)

There is a saying that "Showing up is 80% of success". As you get older, you realize that most of the remaining 20% is knowing when to leave.

Thats all we get from the art team? No update on where they are with V3. Nothing mentioned on what they are working on next. No word on the ugly lighting/shaders that makes the Amarr ships look like turds in space

Oh look, the Minutes are out. Now the bloggers can complain about something else that no one else cares about.

Ripard pointed out when that first player-built stargate goes
on-line, every player logged into the game -- potentially thousands of players -- will want
to be there to see it and perhaps to interfere with it. The game has to be ready for that
day.

/me nods. Anybody who thinks that CCP is trying to kill off PvE play or PvE players needs to reread the minutes. It just ain't so.

m

/me nods. Anybody who thinks that CCP is trying to kill off PvE play or PvE players needs to reread the minutes. It just ain't so.

m

hink now NPC AI which *BEEP* up drones users

Considering I run a drone boat on an alt, the NPC AI changes aren't that bad when it comes to drones. you just have to pay attention. And manage the AI yourself.

It helps to know things like 'The AI hates ewar'

Malcanis wasn't present at this summit and was unable to attend remotely, thus the lack of mention.

And again all the Revenant Dust stuff is missing from the minutes due to NDA :(

THEY'RE FAKES!

2. Malcanis has the CSM tag, yet wasn't mentioned once in the minutes, why?

Then how are we to know if we should vote for him? D: (Okay fine, he is active on the forum as halftroll...)
Thanks for explaining though :)

Session 17: Reasonable Things Review

Discussion on the first point GÇô allow players to log out to character select - was short. In
the words of Veritas, GÇ£NoGÇ¥. The reasons why this is technically infeasible are baked into
the very core of the game and would literally require what amounts to a ground-up rewrite
to fix. Mynnna relayed an anecdote from lunch about how it would be ten
programmers working for six months for 15 seconds of payoff for the players. This was
confirmed by Veritas. Soundwave said GÇ£SomedayGÇ¥, thus creating, with a single word, the
largest expectation management problem CCP has or ever will have.

This is why I love reading the summit minutes, thanks for sharing

Funny how the launcher can launch the client with the player logged in, but the client relaunching itself is somehow too hard.

The client could launch a new copy of itself and then kill off the original, but it would just be a slower and more complicated version of just clicking quit and launch.

The issue is that the once a character is selected the client can not revert to client select without restarting the client, which is exactly what the launcher does.

On the player retention thing, I will point out that measuring "engagement" by measuring wether a player reached or don't an arbitrary milestone ingame is not exactly failproof.

How engaged is someone who only runs missions, but has run in excess of 1,500 missions over 5 years?

How engaged is someone who only mines rocks, but has done it for years upon years?

Is it engagement enough to write in excess of 400 posts at the forums each month? Spend like 20 hours a week writing and reading about EVE?

Of all the silly things CCP ever did to me, calling me "not engaged" because I never went to null or reached some other random milestone ingame may be of the silliest.

If I was not engaged, Dr Whatsyourname, I would not have given in excess of 1,000 euros to your company.

And now it turns I am not even deemed worthy of keeping as a customer because "I am not engaged enough" and my kind leaves too often.

That's pathetic.

I have a suggestion. If most people will not cross the social wall, or will not enter the sandbox nor miss it... have a revolutionary idea, free of charge: deliver them exactly what they want with a EVE twist rather than shake your head and say "too bad, they weren't engaged enough" as they leave.

You mention reading and posting on the forums a lot. I would guess that'd be one thing that sets you apart from other players with an otherwise similar in-game profile who flame out and leave due to lack of engagement.

I don't really response to posts, I don't talk ingame 90% of the time, but I feel I am engaged to game 6 accounts 7 chars. I am kind of anti social, because of PTSD & TBI from getting blown up in war. That does NOT mean I am not engaged with game, just plays it MY way, in that last month alone CCP got over 200 USD off me. So I think I am engaged to/with game

It has taken so long for the minutes to come out, that most of it is just old news.

This songs sums it up really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E994cE_xYI

Thanks for the clarification, I was pretty upset about that thing (and I readed the minutes' section three times before posting here, because I am... huh... engaged about them).

1. A document that was delayed months to get the wording precise, vetted through god knows how many eyes and versions to get the complete vison that CCP and the CSM has for non-null sec cartel players.
2. A CCP employee jumping in a few hours later spinning "oh no, we never meant that at all".

The only way CCP will ever understand what the player base wants is with demographic representation, meaning at least 60% of the CSM is made up of high sec players, and the null sec cartels have a max of 2 reps.

Honestly, even if nobody from highsec is interested in running, y'all could form a union / voting bloc. With enough power, especially with some demonstrated ability to move votes (in the last election, delivering 3000 first places would have been a "seat"; delivering 1000 would have been Very Useful), you will be courted by *someone*.

Elaborating on this, a fact that is perhaps known & out there but not much commented on is that eight candidates - Ali, trebor, mike, malcanis, ripard and three of the others (I don't remember all who) all cross-endorsed and encouraged their supporters to vote for the others. In this way, they formed a bloc of sorts.

There is nothing, strictly speaking, stopping anyone else from doing this. Just need the willingness to run, willingness to cooperate with some other like-minded candidates and, most importantly, the willingness to reach out and get people who might not normally vote to get engaged.

Here again we run into the shameful inability of deomocratic voting systems to represent idle sacks of fat who can't even be bothered to spend 2 minutes per year clicking a "vote" button

To the members of the CSM: Thanks for the notes. Please don't continue with the wierd and difficult to read test transcript. My eyes are bleeding. I cannot begin to express how much of a loss it will be for all of us if Trebor decides not to run again. Having someone with his experience and background on the CSM is a god-send.

Mynnna relayed an anecdote from lunch about how it would be ten programmers working for six months for 15 seconds of payoff for the players.

Yup, I'm gonna post a ~thing~ pretty soon. It will be amongst a lot of things I am gonna be posting in the coming days. Fear my reign of terror.

Yup, I'm gonna post a ~thing~ pretty soon. It will be amongst a lot of things I am gonna be posting in the coming days. Fear my reign of terror.

Here again we run into the shameful inability of deomocratic voting systems to represent idle sacks of fat who can't even be bothered to spend 2 minutes per year clicking a "vote" button

Trebor continued, stating that he did not in any way intend to cast aspersions on the PvE content team because they were, after all, dealing with legacy issues. That said, he counseled being a little bit bolder -- instead of small tweaks, perhaps they should go away for 9 months or a year and come back with a good system for doing procedural dungeons.

As I've pointed a few times, people leaving the game rather than bothering to have their woes adressed is CCP's problem, not ours.

And CCP have addresed this by giving people the opportunity to be represented (or run as reps themselves).

The "If you loved me, you'd know what I want" line is laughably passive-aggressive when it comes from a teenager in their first relationship. From a (presumably) adult such as yourself it's simply pathetic.

Leaving aside the fact that after 3 years of your futile whining, you're still here.


Maybe think about your own communication deficit?

I think of it as "if you want my money, you must earn it". That may be a revolutionary concept in your peculiar world, but that's not my fault.

And yet, you're still here.

I guess this makes me a very engaged player, doesn't it?

Gonna turn the light back on you lot.

OK, so they came late but you HAVE managed to see the minutes before the next summit (coming soon)

What in the minutes would you like to see elaborated on? Iterated on? Dropped?

If we didn't represent you well last time let us know what you would like next time.

m

Gonna turn the light back on you lot.

OK, so they came late but you HAVE managed to see the minutes before the next summit (coming soon)

What in the minutes would you like to see elaborated on? Iterated on? Dropped?

If we didn't represent you well last time let us know what you would like next time.

m

Do tell us some more about how you'll complain and moan and whine, but won't expend 1% of that time or effort on actually trying to do anything useful, and how it's somebody else's fault that you're not getting what you want because they should magically know because they're psychic or something.

I got Bad News for you, buttercup: If you want to get some **** shovelled, you're going to have to roll your sleeves up and get your hands dirty. Standing around and wrinkling your nose at the smell means that you've done nothing but suck farts.

What in the minutes would you like to see elaborated on? Iterated on? Dropped?

Generally everyone can agree the PVE content of eve is lacking and years out of date, not even trying to fix these problems would be a mistake there are tons of threads on the forums of potential improvements that could be looked at.

The CSM is not the only forum for feedback it's not even the best platform to gauge customer approval and discuss potential change.

How about calling you "not engaged" because you've repeatedly stated in the plainest terms that you're not interested in what EVE has to offer and you're only here until the day Star Citizen launches?

No need to get personal like that Malcanis. Whilst I am thinking of it where the hell were you in the entire 72 page document? You look like a waste of a vote to me. I mean it does say CSM on your profile doesn't it.

Why all this hate on PVE ?? leave it alone.... I dont care about pvp, never have and never will...

Its a shame that for us pve'ers the game gets worse and worse for every expansion due to 5 year old pvp'ers

Oh, that's an easy one: you can't. I won't be running for CSM9.

Your question would have been better phrased "Then how are we to know if we should have voted for him."

best news ever. Those who did vote for you must now regret it, it's not like you turned up to the CSM is it?

You're going to insist on continuing to be illiterate, aren't you.

Just curious, there at the CSM, how much time do you spend dealing with Malcanis' inflammatory attitude rather than being productive? Does he troll you much too or is that a privilege he saves for commoners?

Not commoners. Idiots.

all I'm saying is that people voted for him and he didn't turn up, his electors must regret that now. Yes I know real life gets in the way sometimes but I would be more sympathetic if Malcanis demonstrated that he was worthy of the CSM position by not being such a troll practically every time he posts.

...and here comes Me-Too.

"Progodlegend asked via text if they could get a feature to turn the [sensor] overlay off entirely, a question that was roundly ignored by all."

So, inconvenient questions are simply ignored?
Quality work, CSM, qua-li-ty work.

what in the ****

all I'm saying is that people voted for him and he didn't turn up, his electors must regret that now. Yes I know real life gets in the way sometimes but I would be more sympathetic if Malcanis demonstrated that he was worthy of the CSM position by not being such a troll practically every time he posts.

On the plus side though Mynnna I thought your CSM input was pretty good, as was Ripard Tegs.

Just curious, there at the CSM, how much time do you spend dealing with Malcanis' inflammatory attitude rather than being productive? Does he troll you much too or is that a privilege he saves for commoners?

One thing I'd like to note is, although it is pretty much a rumour: "Ripard Teg noted that Bettik once stated that "people should not live in WH space""

I don't think you should tell us what we should or shouldn't do in a sandbox, if anything Wormhole space is probably the most fun as well as scariest and most immersive place to live in Eve, purely my opinion of course.

"Progodlegend asked via text if they could get a feature to turn the [sensor] overlay off entirely, a question that was roundly ignored by all."

So, inconvenient questions are simply ignored?
Quality work, CSM, qua-li-ty work.

what in the ****

Malcanis does not suffer fools gladly, and fortunately, if there are fools on the CSM, they practice the virtue of fools.

Can we at least get some idea as to which "game" these mythical "Project 2" and "Project 3" creatures are being considered for?

The placeholder comments in the Minutes were vague to the degree of being pointless.

Tks.

Can we at least get some idea as to which "game" these mythical "Project 2" and "Project 3" creatures are being considered for?

The placeholder comments in the Minutes were vague to the degree of being pointless.

Tks.

I'll be the first to concede that I'd hoped to give the players who voted for me better value. But there's more to CSMing than minutes or even summits. I'd like to think that those who voted for me weren't the ones who got the worst value either.

As for "trolling" well yes, sometimes I do. If it makes you happy, I do it a lot in real life too. Don't try and pretend it's "every" post though.

GIven the comments by CCP seagull that an engaged player is one that samples a little bit of everything eve has to offer I am now wondering if part of the development plan for our sandbox is to morph into a themepark.

Project 2 & 3 are both things that are slated for beyond Rubicon. They're as vague as they are because they're still in early design stages.

[...] important that CSM/community discussions focused more on *problems* than *solutions*.

CCP Soundwave noted itGÇÖd be a great tool for spies, but more generally that he dislikes
anything that takes organization out of the players hands. GÇ£I dislike anything that takes
organization out of the hands of players, because for really really good players, that is a
thing that matters. Organized and good people will be able to organize their fleets
properly.GÇ¥

(...)

>Session 18: PvE

Procedural generated pve.

Yes please.

(...)

Sorry to butt into the bitching about the minutes.

I have a quick question for any CSM guy or girl who attended.

A few times in the minutes CSM members stated we can't tell you about XXX because of the NDA, what we will say is what we heard was good and you should be excited.

The Dust session was also covered by NDA but there was no such comment. In the session with Hilmar it was stated they are focused on making a great FPS and the integration between the games in seen as a nice to have extra.

Can any CSM member say that while they can't tell us about the Dust link, they are excited about what they are seeing?

Procedural hell + CCP?

Excuse me, I'll be back in a minute.

The dust session is only like that because that session is slightly delayed, and will be released quite soon, not the total black box that is session 2 & 3.

I like the fact that the minutes came out after the next expansion; it's good not to have to constantly translate "feature X" into whatever it was eventually revealed to be. (Seriously, if you expect spoilers out of the minutes... why? You're not going to get them.)

Doesn't have to be hell if they do it right... In any case it's not going to happen soon if at all. 9 to 12 months dev time is not something I think will go into that direction anytime soon. Too many other things could be done in that time that I would prefer.

Also yay, somebody read my post!

Not sure if it would be NDA, but how would you gauge your excitement level for project 2 and 3 on a scale from 1 to 10. 1 massively disappointed and 10 for shut up and take my money.

Unless you're Dolan's alt, I'm just going to go ahead and disagree with this now, Dersen.

I think most of the folks commenting here would agree that transparency and the summit minutes are important. Imo, assessment of quality is essential to achieving it. But, I do not agree that we would be best served by having a quality assessment arrive after the release of the expansion it references.

Good quality control establishes goals (crowdsourcing,) works to implement them (summit,) and then measures results (an as-yet unclear/nonexistant step unless you count individual csm member blogs maybe.)

It just seems to me that the csm summit minutes have always been heavily nda'ed and there hasn't yet been a problem with the timing of their release before this cycle. I can understand how delaying the minutes until after the expansion is released would benefit CCP, but I cannot comprehend how it benefits the players. And as our representatives, I'd like access to our player representatives' minutes as soon as possible.

At a minimum, you should come up with a more-compelling reason to delay the minutes beyond "it was easier to read."

imo.

lol

YK

nda is a legally binding contract for very good and well documented reason.
just cos we have a country mile more access into the studio more than any other bunch of devs have ever allowed the general public ( and make no mistake, ANYONE can sub) dose not mean we get to act like share holders.

Hmmm. Well, I didn't suggest revealing any more/less info than has been revealed in summits past, Ralph, but I don't necessarily agree with this comment either. Sorry.

The timing of the minutes, I disagreed with simply because its impractical to get a quality control review after product completion.

But if you really want to get more specific: in 2012, the CSM were invited to become official CCP stakeholders and the reason given was so they would be able to contribute feedback during the development process.

"The planning process is always in flux; if you nail things down too early, you miss things. In one of our Skype conferences, I made a point of saying we were evaluating things, not that we had a plan. I think CSM should come into the process during the evaluation stage, before we have a plan."
-- CCP Ripley, CSM Winter Summit Minutes 2012, p. 22

And as the CSM are OUR player representatives, having the minutes nda'ed until after the expansion is released is removing a significant part of our - the players - ability to respond to proposed ideas and contribute feedback - via our democratically-elected CSM representatives, during the development process. If there are people out there who think players can have more influence on the development process by waiting until after an expansion is released to comment, then I'm just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree with those folks. lol

YK

But if you really want to get more specific: in 2012, the CSM were invited to become official CCP stakeholders and the reason given was so they would be able to contribute feedback during the development process.

"The planning process is always in flux; if you nail things down too early, you miss things. In one of our Skype conferences, I made a point of saying we were evaluating things, not that we had a plan. I think CSM should come into the process during the evaluation stage, before we have a plan."
-- CCP Ripley, CSM Winter Summit Minutes 2012, p. 22

Just in case there was any confusion, making this happen is actually the biggest success of CSM8, they know virtually every project long before any work begins and provide tremendous input to pre-design and design review. The day to day of the CSM is serving as a sort of focus group for us too bounce stuff off.

How is supposed to represent the CSM the massive amount of players who don't play together, don't organize, don't vote and yet are a substantial share of your income?

How is supposed to represent the CSM the massive amount of players who don't play together, don't organize, don't vote and yet are a substantial share of your income?

Unless you're Dolan's alt, I'm just going to go ahead and disagree with this now, Dersen.

I think most of the folks commenting here would agree that transparency and the summit minutes are important. Imo, assessment of quality is essential to achieving it. But, I do not agree that we would be best served by having a quality assessment arrive after the release of the expansion it references.

CCP Dolan, by doing that, you're just raising the stakes for the lobbies, and shafting even furher all the players who are being shafted because you won't engage them with a ten foot pole unless they play together, they organize, they campaign, they vote and get someone elected. Their side of the issue is very simple: if you fail to meet their expectations, let alone if you spoil their game, they go away and you lose their money. So why should be THEM who care about getting what they expect so they can keep handing you their money?

How is supposed to represent the CSM the massive amount of players who don't play together, don't organize, don't vote and yet are a substantial share of your income?

Picking an instance: What if for every player who said "yay, lootable implants, gimme money!" there were two players who said "and now they killed me for my implants, f*** this game, I quit"? How in heavens could you even tell? Wishful thinking? Crunching server stats? Hoping that a demographically skewed little group of guys voted by less than 1 in 6 players are the right stuff because they're the only stuff you got?

Good question! Arguably if they don't vote they forego their chance to be represented officially. I went back and found the CSM8 numbers which suggest that 6-18% of subscribers voted. IMO there were some great candidates this year whose platforms aligned well with independent solo playstyle capsuleers.

I suppose I would just urge more visibility about: what the CSM does for New Eden and individual pilots; how to become a candidate for CSM9; who the current CSM is and what they are doing.

Googling EVE CSM yields:
Official Community CSM page
Council of Stellar Management - EVElopedia
What is the CSM - EVElopedia
official 'Your CSM' page
and adorably CSM 1's webpage

Players are not going to google EVE CSM to find this useful stuff, make sure to push it to launcher every now and then imo. And maybe move some of the background from the wiki to the official community pages.

How about "ZERO", no Russian judge required, since if we knew at least which game they were intended for -- EVE, DUST, VALKYRIE or "somebody's current braingasm that might never see the light of day", we'd at least have an idea of which part of the EVE multiverse is going to get us excited next.

Or not.

Since we have no information, then the following WAG is as good as it gets: "Hello Kitty In Space".

Let the fapping begin.

And as the CSM are OUR player representatives, having the minutes nda'ed until after the expansion is released is removing a significant part of our - the players - ability to respond to proposed ideas and contribute feedback - via our democratically-elected CSM representatives, during the development process. If there are people out there who think players can have more influence on the development process by waiting until after an expansion is released to comment, then I'm just going to have to respectfully agree to disagree with those folks. lol

YK

To your second point, no, I don't believe I will meet you halfway. Sorry 'bout that. I just don't think the CSM minutes need to be attached to the expansion release in any way. While obviously related, they are separate items and it is in the players' best interest to get the minutes released as quickly as possible. So I don't agree that attributing some arbitrary or unnecessary deadline that could affect the timing of their release makes all that much sense.

If the summit minutes only discussed "heavily edited text ... about upcoming feature x," then I'd probably be more open to flexibility. But they don't. The minutes contain vast amounts of information that isn't nda'ed. They're usually 70 - 100 pages long. That's a lot of information and it isn't all redacted or difficult to comprehend. It is the players' only and best insight into the development process vicariously through our csm. CCP can state that this is not the function of the minutes but policy changes will not alter their substance.

A single quote from a dev could spark a conversation that might lead to an entire threadnaught and subsequent design change.

And Dersen, what you believe is a waste of time is not at issue. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but imo, it is in the players' best interest to be given as much information as the nda allows as early in the development process as possible. What they do with that information is a secondary concern. I can't possibly pretend to know whether they will make informed/uninformed/good/bad decisions. But unless you're going to argue that timeliness isn't a factor in the development process, then you're unlikely to change my mind.

The point is that there is no metric available to predetermine what is 'useful' or 'productive' information.

Information is information. It's worth is relative. If that information needs to be protected, then it needs to be nda'ed. Otherwise, there is no reason to delay its release and it is in the players' best interest to have non-nda information released as early in the development process as possible. I mean, are we really going to judge whether information is useful by the presence or absence of a rant thread? I sure hope not.

CCP Dolan, by doing that, you're just raising the stakes for the lobbies, and shafting even furher all the players who are being shafted because you won't engage them with a ten foot pole unless they play together, they organize, they campaign, they vote and get someone elected. Their side of the issue is very simple: if you fail to meet their expectations, let alone if you spoil their game, they go away and you lose their money. So why should be THEM who care about getting what they expect so they can keep handing you their money?

How is supposed to represent the CSM the massive amount of players who don't play together, don't organize, don't vote and yet are a substantial share of your income?

Picking an instance: What if for every player who said "yay, lootable implants, gimme money!" there were two players who said "and now they killed me for my implants, f*** this game, I quit"? How in heavens could you even tell? Wishful thinking? Crunching server stats? Hoping that a demographically skewed little group of guys voted by less than 1 in 6 players are the right stuff because they're the only stuff you got?

I've never seen a worse "appeal to CCP's wallet" attempt ever.

You keep talking about all these down trodden-disorganized non voters as if you are some kind of community organizer or something. The fact is, you can only speak for yourself, those disorganized people DO NOT CARE (as evidenced by the fact that they don't organize). Stop trying to hide your agenda behind the poor unrepresented masses. Speak YOUR mind, not everyone elses for a change.

Session 15: Team True Grit and the DUST 514 Link
Due to the large amount of NDA material in this session, and the rapidly evolving nature
of DUST 514 development, this session will be temporarily delayed. Readers should
expect it to be added very soon after the new year.

Any news on this?

Any news on this?

The dust session is only like that because that session is slightly delayed, and will be released quite soon, not the total black box that is session 2 & 3.