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Benglada	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:17:00 - [1] Everyone knows cruise missiles and missiles in general are tad overpowered, thats ok with me, as long as you specilize in them Well, im not going to deny it, i did just get owend by t2 precision cruise, so i was curious and looked up the skills required to use t2 cruise Level 5s for t2 cruise: Cruise 5 Missile op 5 And then said, wait? what do large t2 blasters require? Small hybrid 5 med hybrid 5 large hybrid 5 motion prediction 5 Gunnery 5 Can anyone explain to me how balanced it is to require little less then 1/3 the training on top of missiles already being overpowered? Id say either remove the small5 and med 5 req's or add standard missile5 and heavy missile5 to cruise 2's. Its pretty *tastic. --------------------------- Originally by:** Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:22:00 - [2] Well tbh he probably had target navigation prediction and all those other juicy skills trained up to make the most of his t2 launchers. He would have been a lot less effective without all those skills.
J'val Iktar	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:22:00 - [3] Don't forget small blaster spec 4 and medium blaster spec 4. It is pretty ridiculous actually. In fairness, you get most of the prereqs for t2 large rails along with it while the missle user has to train torp. 5 as well, but it should still be more even.
Benglada	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:24:00 - [4] So? it doesent matter what he "might" have... with t2 cruise you have the option to train the support skills or not, with large gusn you HAVE to train the support skills.. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Zyper	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:26:00 - [5] Ya but if he don't train the support skills he will suck pretty badly :) And then the gain from the tech2 cruisers pretty much negated itself :D
KilROCK	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:27:00 - [6] They should require Guided Missile precision 4 at least..
J'val Iktar	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:29:00 - [7] Edited by: J''val Iktar on 17/03/2006 01:30:56 Originally by: Zyper Ya but if he don't train the support skills he will suck pretty badly :) And then the gain from the tech2 cruisers pretty much negated itself :D ??? How much does small blaster 5 and medium blaster 5 help large blasters? This isn't a question of having to train support skills, its a question of having to train for t2 small and medium variants of a weapon in order to use the t2 large variant of that weapon.
Mjeh	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:35:00 - [8] I have no problems with that, but TBH I don't think you're likely to find many pilots with cruise spec that don't already have Guided Missile Precision IV, as well as most other missile support skills to at least level 3-4. Sure, it is possible to train cruise spec really fast, but you're really only fooling yourself by doing so IMO. What seems a bit unfair to me about the whole issue, though, is that you don't have to spec in any smaller class missile to spec in cruise missiles, unlike what you have to do to spec any sort of turret.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:36:00 - [9] "Id say either remove the small5 and med 5 req's or add standard missile5 and heavy missile5 to cruise 2's." If you remove the requirements for lower class guns specializations etc from higher class guns, you will ** off everyone who "wasted" millions of skillpoints to train these smaller gun skills, just to get the large turrets. If you introduce matching requirements for missiles, you will lock out of combat for long weeks (and consequently off) people who didn't yet train these skills as they didn't have to. Whatever you do, you will ** off roughly between 1/3rd to half of your playerbase, for sake of year-late balance. Pick your poison... wisely. :s
Benglada	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:39:00 - [10] Edited by: Benglada on 17/03/2006 01:40:15 well, j0sephine as it stands, t2 cruise are retardly overpowered (precision cruise anyone?) I dont really care about those who didnt train the skills, because as it stands everyone who uses turrets is getting pretty screwed. Edit: J0sephine dont you fly a raven ? --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:47:00 - [11] another reason why caldari are popular while i do think that it is unfair for turret users, they wont change it that late, and i can live with it, just see it as a general advantage of missiles and missile users also the ones who might get screwed over most by increasing the reqs for t2 missile launchers (siege , cruises etc) wouldnt be caldari but those races which use missiles as 2nd weaponsystem on some ships so i say leave it be as it is now, view it just as an(other ) advantage for missile users Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Benglada	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:52:00 - [12] Its kinda * now tho because the last four ravens i have seen in 0.0 all have precision cruise because it takes like two weeks to train for it. --------------------------- Originally by:** Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Sai Remik	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:52:00 - [13] Sorry to jump in but this is a subject quite over discussed in many many threads. Missile are not overpowered. Before Cold War, I would agree but they're quite on par with others for many reasons beyond just skill time. 1) Missiles are the only non-instant damage weapon. Blasters, Rails, and Beams all do instant damage to their target. Missiles take time and can take quite a bit of time depending on the range to reach the target. 2) Defenders. You can shoot missiles down. No other fitted weapon system has that weakness. In fact, if the timing is right, a smart bomb can take out missiles. 3) Lack of missile slots. If you notice on the Raven, it only gets 6 missile bays as opposed to it's peers like the Apoc gets 8 beams and the Thron gets 7 rails/blasters. So, if a Raven pilot wants to even approach the kind of damage output the others get, he has to fit out some sort of turrets in the other two slots which puts him right into the same problem you have. About now a lot of people love to bring up the issue where missiles always hit and turrets can miss. True, but you never see a missile ever hitting for 1500 points of damage unlike a Tach II Beam from an Amarr BS. So turrets may not always hit but if you do the math by similar skilled pilots in a Raven / Apoc, you'll notice an Apoc can out do the Raven in raw damage by quite a bit.
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:54:00 - [14] "well, j0sephine as it stands, t2 cruise are retardly overpowered (precision cruise anyone?)" Yup; i spent quite a while complaining about exactly that (precision missiles and long range ammo in general) in the recent thread about tech.2 ammo. "I dont really care about those who didnt train the skills, because as it stands everyone who uses turrets is getting pretty screwed." That's too bad, but why should your care or lack thereof mean anything? Would you like me to use precisely this argument when you wake tomorrow and find out that overnight the requirement to fly say, Minmatar battleships has changed and now includes Scrap Metal Processing 5, "because it's logical anyone who wants to fly these needs to be good at handling junk. And no, i don't care that you didn't train this skill yet"..? It doesn't matter if you care, and it doesn't matter if i care. What is important, this sort of change does affect very large amount of players. If it can be done by say, making official announcement 3-6 months in advance that skill requirements are to be changed, then fine. Otherwise you have a forum clusterfsck at your hands that'll make all the whining about the original missiles overhaul pale in comparison. And what good is that for? "Edit: J0sephine dont you fly a raven ?" I fly number of ships, Raven sometimes included. Am in middle of finally training the large hybrids specs, for the next tier Caldari battleship. If you think the choice of ships i fly puts a bias in what i say... think again.
Wesley Harding	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:55:00 - [15] I suppose it's good if you want to hop into a Raven and bypass Caldari frigs and Cruisers altogether, but any specialized person will eventually want to train up T2 Heavies and Standards anyway. The real reason I suspect is so that pilots in Megas and Apocs and Tempests can train up for T2 cruise and siege if they are so inclined to do so. It's the fault of the pilots of those ships if they are not so inclined to use the hardpoints at their disposal.
Benglada	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:55:00 - [16] umm. defenders are high slot modules which means you havve to sacrafice fire power to shoot them down, which really almost hurts more then letting the missiles hit (not to mention a lot of ships dont have missile slots) --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Hamatitio	Posted - 2006.03.17 01:59:00 - [17] Don't forget, missile changes came out 5-6 months after the turret changes. Wouldn't be all that fair to make them train for 3-4 more months than they did to be where they were before, would it? --- I Post on the forums for Fate. Im cool. Industrialists wanted
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.03.17 02:00:00 - [18] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 17/03/2006 02:01:14 Originally by: j0sephine Would you like me to use precisely this argument when you wake tomorrow and find out that overnight the requirement to fly say, Minmatar battleships has changed and now includes Scrap Metal Processing 5, "because it's logical anyone who wants to fly these needs to be good at handling junk. And no, i don't care that you didn't train this skill yet"..? ... don't even try. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.17 02:04:00 - [19] Originally by: Sai Remik Sorry to jump in but this is a subject quite over discussed in many many threads. Missile are not overpowered. Before Cold War, I would agree but they're quite on par with others for many reasons beyond just skill time. 1) Missiles are the only non-instant damage weapon. Blasters, Rails, and Beams all do instant damage to their target. Missiles take time and can take quite a bit of time depending on the range to reach the target. 2) Defenders. You can shoot missiles down. No other fitted weapon system has that weakness. In fact, if the timing is right, a smart bomb can take out missiles. 3) Lack of missile slots. If you notice on the Raven, it only gets 6 missile bays as opposed to it's peers like the Apoc gets 8 beams and the Thron gets 7 rails/blasters. So, if a Raven pilot wants to even approach the kind of damage output the others get, he has to fit out some sort of turrets in the other two slots which puts him right into the same problem you have. About now a lot of people love to bring up the issue where missiles always hit and turrets can miss. True, but you never see a missile ever hitting for 1500 points of damage unlike a Tach II Beam from an Amarr BS. So turrets may not always hit but if you do the math by similar skilled pilots in a Raven / Apoc, you'll notice an Apoc can out do the Raven in raw damage by quite a bit. while i dont think missiles are overpowered i gotta response to that 1) true that, the tradeoff here is missiles always hit while turrets can miss, overalli agree and say its balanced 2) Defenders suck, they are a pain to use, and very hard or impossible? to kill torps cruises, Turrets have a weakness namely in tracking disruptors. and i take a tracking disruptor over defenders anyday. i'd love to have an EW equivalent of Tracking disruptor for missiles and would gladly give up defenders for it. ANY DAY 3) bad comparisons, Tempest has 6 turret slots, typhoon has freggin 4, anyways didnt really get this point its like taking apples and oranges and saying one of them looks bluer than the others I dont think that missiles are overpowered, mostly fine in my books BUT precision cruises totally reversed what they tried to achieve with the initial missile changes. Namely wtfpwning small targets with the big guns. An no just because it has the t2 tag doesnt justify that. Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.03.17 02:05:00 - [20] Originally by: j0sephine If you introduce matching requirements for missiles, you will lock out of combat for long weeks (and consequently ** off) people who didn't yet train these skills as they didn't have to. Whatever you do, you will ** off roughly between 1/3rd to half of your playerbase, for sake of year-late balance. Pick your poison... wisely. :s Its not as if it hasn't happened before with missiles. In fact at the time I had trained MLO5, cruise missiles 3 and standard missiles 3 and I didn't have any trouble running around in my Kestrel because of the way the skill requirements were set... (ie, you can use a module if you have the primary/secondary/tertiary skills required, it doesn't matter if you don't have the prereqs for those skills and already have them trained. See the dev character on that fanfest vid when you gave himself carrier 5 without the prereqs) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Arashi Miike	Posted - 2006.03.17 02:06:00 - [21] Well then, in the interest of balance, they could at least lower the requirements of tech II large guns. I know people have invested a lot of SP into training them, but it's not as though lowering the reqs would take anything away from them. They'd still be able to use tech II small and medium guns. Really, complaining because somebody else gets something which costs you absolutely nothing at all just makes you malicious and greedy, and if those kinds of people want to cry about it, then let them. If I started whining to the gov't because someone else won the lottery, do you think they'd take me seriously? Game balance should take precedence over whiners any day. Besides, nobody whined (afaik) when they lowered the requirements for tractor beams. "I should have been a pair of ragged claws/ scuttling across the floors of silent seas."
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.17 02:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 17/03/2006 02:01:14 Originally by: j0sephine Would you like me to use precisely this argument when you wake tomorrow and find out that overnight the requirement to fly say, Minmatar battleships has changed and now includes Scrap Metal Processing 5, "because it's logical anyone who wants to fly these needs to be good at handling junk. And no, i don't care that you didn't train this skill yet"..? ... don't even try. Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy. looking at the "New" phoon and the skills required to fly it to its potential i'd say that would just be a minor annoyance Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
j0sephine	Posted - 2006.03.17 02:11:00 - [23] "(ie, you can use a module if you have the primary/secondary/tertiary skills required, it doesn't matter if you don't have the prereqs for those skills and already have them trained." Oi, i didn't think of that. You are right then, and it would mean instad of all missile users whining, you'd only have the new people who didn't train the specializations yet... whine about the vets getting unfair advantage by being able to use gear without inventing new millions of skills. All in all, not that much of difference as far as backlash goes... -.^
Legende	Posted - 2006.03.17 02:46:00 - [24] "BUT precision cruises totally reversed what they tried to achieve with the initial missile changes. Namely wtfpwning small targets with the big guns. An no just because it has the t2 tag doesnt justify that." Just give my Gleams a "+1000% Tracking Speed" bonus and I won't complain.
Benglada	Posted - 2006.03.17 05:34:00 - [25] Originally by: j0sephine "Edit: J0sephine dont you fly a raven ?" If you think the choice of ships i fly puts a bias in what i say... think again.[/quote Good Job proveing me wrong. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.03.17 05:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Benglada So? it doesent matter what he "might" have... with t2 cruise you have the option to train the support skills or not, with large gusn you HAVE to train the support skills.. Only a moron wouldn't train the support skills, unless you want to be one of those Raven pilots who gets owned by an AF or inty. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.03.17 05:51:00 - [27] Unless you're rich, it would be kinda dumb to move up to tII launchers unless you had good skills anyway. I don't think missiles were intended to be a primary weapon system until later changes. What really bothers me is that you have to train small gun spec skills in order to train medium spec guns. This is a completely unnecessary time sink and reinforces the false belief that bigger ships are unjustly denied their omgwtfpwnmobile status rather than a flexible link in the food chain. Assault Missile Launcher Improvement
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.03.17 05:54:00 - [28] Originally by: Benglada I dont really care about those who didnt train the skills, because as it stands everyone who uses turrets is getting pretty screwed. The cruise user can only use cruise missiles, the heavy turret user can use any t2 rail/blaster of large/med/small size. Versatility can be nice, and a BS loaded with precision cruise who runs into another BS, or even a HAC/CS is pretty screwed, because they're getting penalties and no real bonus against those targets. Requiring target nav and/or warhead upgrades 3/4 for t2 missiles is fine by me, make it go up per weapon size. 1-2 for rocket/light, 3 for heavy, 4 for cruise/torp (torp wouldnt need guided skill, neither would rockets, for obvious reasons). Ofcourse I have warhead upgradesto 4, and guided is almost 4, so I'm abit biased. And you can bet your ass that standard missiles are getting a heavy workout soon for hawk changes. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
J'val Iktar	Posted - 2006.03.17 06:06:00 - [29] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The cruise user can only use cruise missiles, the heavy turret user can use any t2 rail/blaster of large/med/small size. Good point, we should require standard missle 5 and heavy missle 5 to give missle users the same versatility that turret users enjoy. Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Versatility can be nice, and a BS loaded with precision cruise who runs into another BS, or even a HAC/CS is pretty screwed, because they're getting penalties and no real bonus against those targets. Ahahahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaha hahaha hahaha gasp hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha... No real bonus? Ahahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha... Hilarious
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.03.17 06:43:00 - [30] Originally by: J'val Iktar Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The cruise user can only use cruise missiles, the heavy turret user can use any t2 rail/blaster of large/med/small size. Good point, we should require standard missle 5 and heavy missle 5 to give missle users the same versatility that turret users enjoy. Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Versatility can be nice, and a BS loaded with precision cruise who runs into another BS, or even a HAC/CS is pretty screwed, because they're getting penalties and no real bonus against those targets. Ahahahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaha hahaha hahaha gasp hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha... No real bonus? Ahahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha... Hilarious well compare the sig radius of bs/hac to the precision cruise and normal cruise with precision skill to 4 and then talk about advantages. You get an increase for HAC, but any bs has larger sig then standard cruise with GMP 4, so you are only left with the t2 ammo penalty. ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well ...
Tachy	Posted - 2006.03.17 06:56:00 - [31] Missiles and turrets have support skills. Large T2 missiles have much less prerequisites than large T2 guns. Adding the prerequisites to missiles the same way the T2 guns work, Minmatar would be kicked badly in the vital parts as most Matari ships require you to use guns and missiles (and drones on top). That is the dilemma the Devs maneuvered themselves into by building the ship lines the way they did. And there is no easy way around it without handing the pilots the possibility to respend their trained skillpoints from scrap accompanied by a 100% revamp of the ships. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Darwinia	Posted - 2006.03.17 06:56:00 - [32] Bah humbug, logical arguments be gone. I say missiles are overpowered so they must be! But seriously Precision missiles are a >bit< overpowered.. but not that much different from some of the t2 ammo (200 km+ insta damage anyone). We also need a tracking distruptor type module for missiles.. something to reduce the speed and the rof. It is only fair. ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs.
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.03.17 07:43:00 - [33] The balance discussion has nothing to do with support skills here, though many dont seem to understand that. I'll break it down for the tards... TO USE LARGE T2 GUNS YOU NEED Small hybrid 5 Large hybrid 5 Motion prediction 5 Gunnery 5 TO USE T2 CRUISE LAUNCHERS YOU NEED Cruise 5 Missile op 5 So... what happened to Heavy Missle 5? Thats the equivalent of Medium turrets, no? Not to mention that there IS one support skill that would be fine at lvl 4, but is REQUIRED to be lvl 5 for you to use the guns.. not so on Cruise launchers Caldari 4tnoobs?
Hamatitio	Posted - 2006.03.17 07:50:00 - [34] I will make ANOTHER attempt at this, as apparantly no one read my other post. When tech 2 guns were introduced, people trained small medium and large specializations up, as they were training for an over all damage increase. The tech 2 guns had a higher damage mod, little bit harsher fittings, and the ability to "own some face" with a gank setup. The missile users whined and whined as there were no tech 2 launchers. So along with the missile "nerf" (not really a nerf) came out, they introduced the tech 2 launchers. Caldari specialized pilots now had to train a lot more skills just to have the same damage output that they had before the patch came out. So for you lazy people Ill break it down here: Tech 2 guns came out = Increased DPS dramatically, trianed more skills for better dps. Tech 2 launchers came out = More skills to train in order to be able to do the same damage as before the 'nerf'. That is why they should not have the same training requirements. --- I Post on the forums for Fate. Im cool. Industrialists wanted
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.03.17 07:55:00 - [35] ... ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:06:00 - [36] Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 17/03/2006 07:50:23 The balance discussion has nothing to do with support skills here, though many dont seem to understand that. I'll break it down for the tards... TO USE LARGE T2 GUNS YOU NEED Small Hybrid 5 Medium Hybrid 5 Large Hybrid 5 Motion Prediction 5 Gunnery 5 TO USE T2 CRUISE LAUNCHERS YOU NEED Cruise 5 Missile op 5 So... what happened to Heavy Missle 5? Thats the equivalent of Medium turrets, no? Not to mention that there IS one support skill that would be fine at lvl 4, but is REQUIRED to be lvl 5 for you to use the guns.. not so on Cruise launchers. Caldari 4tnoobs? so now you want to hop into your mega/apoc/whatever gunship with only gunnery 5 and large hybrid 5 ? now to do it differently, for large hybrids, you need ONLY large hybrid skill, no matter if you use blasters or rails, so that's basicaly 2 in 1 skill. for large missiles you need CRUISE AND TORPS skill, you need to train 2 skills to use the large missile class. same for small missiles, where you need rockets and standards. medium missiles are screwed atm as there is not torp/rocket equivalent, but the devs are looking at this issue. the spec skills are the same so you need one for blasters, one for rails as well as one for torps and one for cruise. ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well ...
Tachy	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:10:00 - [37] Edited by: Tachy on 17/03/2006 08:11:54 Assault launchers are pretty good short range weapons in the cruiser class. (Edit): There are two lines of T2 skills for guns. One for short range and one for long range. And you have to train both lines to use the large versions. Not just cruise and torp spec + standard missiles. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Sir Juri	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:12:00 - [38] Originally by: Benglada Its kinda *** now tho because the last four ravens i have seen in 0.0 all have precision cruise because it takes like two weeks to train for it. boohoo gees im worse noob then you and I dont cry like a baby, siriously learn the game played a month or so now, wait I know more? its not unfair unbalanced and as allways you whine first then read about it then wont admit your wrong and top it off by making all 100 other forum whiners to get some firewood for the flamin... Im a noob, bear with me :P
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:22:00 - [39] Originally by: Tachy Edited by: Tachy on 17/03/2006 08:11:54 Assault launchers are pretty good short range weapons in the cruiser class. (Edit): There are two lines of T2 skills for guns. One for short range and one for long range. And you have to train both lines to use the large versions. Not just cruise and torp spec + standard missiles. I see you did not get the point. I was talking about TECH1 large guns and missiles. I also mentioned that the tech2 situation is the same. Now for assault launchers, well once you have standard missiles you can use assault launchers so only cruiser sized missile you need to train are heavy missile. in contrast you have always a short and long range cruiser specific weapon, assault launchers use the same ammo as standard launchers, onyl the fitting reqs make them cruiser specific. ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well ...
HW Icarus	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:44:00 - [40] Originally by: OrangeAfroMan Caldari 4tnoobs? Right. Inflammatory comments ftl. Although I assume this is sarcasm, there are far better places to show just how witty you are. You can do really make a difference in a number of ways. Ranting endlessly and calling Caldari noob is one way, which is such valuable input; or you can offer ideas/constructive criticism on this forum and hope CCP takes notice. I agree with the issue at hand. It would probably be best if the SP requirements (or lack thereof respectively) was consistent between combat options. As far as balance between t2 cruise and t2 ammo, it is a debate that goes both ways. I personally feel both have rather overpowered setups (typically in specific situations) that can be achieved. Although the OP seems unable to decide if he/she is complaining about Precision PowerÖ or training times.
MolRob	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:55:00 - [41] Ok. You can train only cruise missile specilaziation without support skills, but thats pretty stupid i think most of us would agree on that. Fact is that most people specialize in one weapon class like missiles or projectiles. Lets assume you are a n00b. Got 40k skillpoints and want to train up projectiles, or missiles. You want to have all spec skills at lvl4, all support skills at lvl4, and some support skills witch have a low training time modifier(2) at level5. (sharpshooter, motion prediction or missile bombardment and target navigation) my total n00b alt would need 195 days and 13 hours to train this according to charater manager. the same character, with same attributes would need 258 days and 6 hours for train the missile skills. yeeeee. of coooourse. missiles are still overpowered and dont need skills at all!!11
Benglada	Posted - 2006.03.17 08:56:00 - [42] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: J'val Iktar Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The cruise user can only use cruise missiles, the heavy turret user can use any t2 rail/blaster of large/med/small size. Good point, we should require standard missle 5 and heavy missle 5 to give missle users the same versatility that turret users enjoy. Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Versatility can be nice, and a BS loaded with precision cruise who runs into another BS, or even a HAC/CS is pretty screwed, because they're getting penalties and no real bonus against those targets. Ahahahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaha hahaha hahaha gasp hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha... No real bonus? Ahahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha... Hilarious well compare the sig radius of bs/hac to the precision cruise and normal cruise with precision skill to 4 and then talk about advantages. You get an increase for HAC, but any bs has larger sig then standard cruise with GMP 4, so you are only left with the t2 ammo penalty. Well GASP thats when you change ammo to t1...Idiot. --------------------------- Originally by: Wrangler Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote..
Tachy	Posted - 2006.03.17 09:54:00 - [43] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Tachy Edited by: Tachy on 17/03/2006 08:11:54 Assault launchers are pretty good short range weapons in the cruiser class. (Edit): There are two lines of T2 skills for guns. One for short range and one for long range. And you have to train both lines to use the large versions. Not just cruise and torp spec + standard missiles. I see you did not get the point. I was talking about TECH1 large guns and missiles. I also mentioned that the tech2 situation is the same. Now for assault launchers, well once you have standard missiles you can use assault launchers so only cruiser sized missile you need to train are heavy missile. in contrast you have always a short and long range cruiser specific weapon, assault launchers use the same ammo as standard launchers, onyl the fitting reqs make them cruiser specific. In contrary, you missed the point. Assault launchers are even another point where missile specialists get some more powder blown up their nose. No extra skill needed for a new ship class' weapon. At least for projectiles the larger short range guns have roughly the same range as the smaller long range guns. In the case of the assault launchers it is exactly the same range, more dps and the same ammo, but much better ammo capacity. And this thread is about T2 weaponry - Where missile users need a lot less skillpoints to reach the same level of large weapon spec because of the spec skills not requiring each other. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.03.17 10:02:00 - [44] Originally by: Tachy Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Tachy Edited by: Tachy on 17/03/2006 08:11:54 Assault launchers are pretty good short range weapons in the cruiser class. (Edit): There are two lines of T2 skills for guns. One for short range and one for long range. And you have to train both lines to use the large versions. Not just cruise and torp spec + standard missiles. I see you did not get the point. I was talking about TECH1 large guns and missiles. I also mentioned that the tech2 situation is the same. Now for assault launchers, well once you have standard missiles you can use assault launchers so only cruiser sized missile you need to train are heavy missile. in contrast you have always a short and long range cruiser specific weapon, assault launchers use the same ammo as standard launchers, onyl the fitting reqs make them cruiser specific. In contrary, you missed the point. Assault launchers are even another point where missile specialists get some more powder blown up their nose. No extra skill needed for a new ship class' weapon. At least for projectiles the larger short range guns have roughly the same range as the smaller long range guns. In the case of the assault launchers it is exactly the same range, more dps and the same ammo, but much better ammo capacity. And this thread is about T2 weaponry - Where missile users need a lot less skillpoints to reach the same level of large weapon spec because of the spec skills not requiring each other. hmm seems we are thinking differently, I actualy complained that there is no other cruiser specific missile other than heavy and I would like to see one :-) as for the t2 thread topic ... well yes this is about t2 weapons, but it is also about the skill prerequisities that are t1 skills. I don't say I am against lowering t2 guns skill prereqs, just look at the situation as a whole, not only wee I want to use t2 large blaster, I have to train more skills than t2 cruise. compare (this is only to show my previous point so not complete): you want t2 large blasters, so you need to train large hybrids (among other skills). but large hybrid skill allows you to use large rails as well. maybe you are not intereste in rails, but you get a 'free' option. in contrary sticking to t2 cruise, you need t1 cruise and less skills than the blaster buddy, but you are stuck with only cruise. if you want the second large missile category, you have to train another skill. this way the cruise user is severely limited in his weapon choice, the hybrid user can use t2 blasters and t1 rails. ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well ...
MolRob	Posted - 2006.03.17 10:09:00 - [45] Originally by: Tachy And this thread is about T2 weaponry - Where missile users need a lot less skillpoints to reach the same level of large weapon spec because of the spec skills not requiring each other. yes. but missile users need a lot more skillpoints to reach the same level of small,medium _and_ large
Joey Deacon	Posted - 2006.03.17 10:33:00 - [46] If missiles are so easy to train for then why don't you train for them and use them?
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2006.03.17 11:15:00 - [47] well training for like adv. small blasters lvl4 and adv. medium blasters lvl4 isnt "wasted", but uneccassary. most people will take advantage of it, that they have these skills trained, be it in cruiser or frigate. only problem i think is to train small blasters and medium blasters to lvl5 as it takes some time (15days?) which i could spend a lot better. ;) oh i just argued with myself. no not really, or, maybe... "We brake for nobody"
Antic	Posted - 2006.03.17 11:19:00 - [48] Originally by: KilROCK They should require Guided Missile precision 4 at least.. Will change nothing. Everyone probably have that already if they are using cruise. Same with the rest of the support skills. So the gripe the OP has (Whaaaa i got owned by t2 crise!) is moot, even if the skill reqs demanded the support skills he still would have gotten owned the same way.
LVirus	Posted - 2006.03.17 11:30:00 - [49] STFU allready. We had to wait for t2 lauchers and skills for allmost an year longer than t2 turret users. We had to wait even longer for missile implants. Missile support skills give crappier bonuses than gunnery skills, some skills dont even effect all missiles. (
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.03.17 11:41:00 - [50] The thing is that the high reqs for T2 large guns are NOT support skills but just lower level gun skills that do NOTHING to help the large guns performance. And I was not around before the missile nerf, but was it not done to reduce the overall performance of missile as they were VASTLY overpowered ?(Seeing how they are still slightly overpowered I don't think I want to even know how it was back then...) So why should the missile users be able to train skills that allow them the same performance again in next to no time? As for why not train missiles yourself, some people actually care for an interesting and diverse game rather than just wtfpwnage. How much fun would EVE be if everyone flew a Raven? ___________________________________ Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?
k starwind	Posted - 2006.03.17 11:42:00 - [51] if caldari had to train missile skills like gunnery skill you would have to do your training like this missile launcher operation 5 rocket 5 rocket spec 4 standard missile 5 standard missile spec 4 heavy missile 5 heavy missile spec 4 torp 5 torp spec 4 cruise missile 5 and then train you can finally train cruise missile spec Oh and you need FOF missiles trained to 4 or 5 then you got the support skills missile bombardment missile projection rapid launch target navigation prediction warhead upgrades ^^ you need all these at about lvl 4 or 5 missiles are fine as they are and unless the person has the support skills trained up he is not going to hit much. While they were saying among themselves it cannot be done, it was done
Tachy	Posted - 2006.03.17 11:42:00 - [52] Slight difference in the amount of ranks to learn until you can start learning the large weapon specialisation skills: ___1___2___3___4___5_ M: 15 \| 15 \| 15 \| 10 \| 12 G: 30 \| 30 \| 30 \| 30 \| 14 M: Missile Launcher Op. (1) L5 Std. Missiles (2) L2 Heavy Missiles (3) L3 Torpedos (4) L5 Cruise Missiles (5) L5 G: Gunnery (1) L5 Small gun (1) L5 Motion prediction (2) L5 Sharpshooter (2) L5 Small gun SR spec (3) L4 Small gun LR spec (3) L4 Medium gun (3) L5 Medium gun SR spec (5) L4 Medium gun LR spec (5) L4 Large gun (5) L5 --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Missle Rider	Posted - 2006.03.17 12:11:00 - [53] So here is for cruise missile Specialization let compare (remember SUPPORT makes better but is NOT REQUIRED for either). Required: cruise missile specialization = 8x Cruise Missiles V = 5x Missile Launcher Operation V = 1x Heavy Missiles III = 3x Standard Missiles III = 3x Support: guided missile precision = 5x missile bombardment = 2x missile projection = 4x rapid launch = 2x target navigation prediction = 2x warhead upgrades = 5x Now lets look at Large Railguns Specilization Required: large railgun specialization = 8x Large Hybrid Turret V = 5x Gunnery V = 1x Sharpshooter V = 2x Medium Railgun Specialization IV = 5x Medium Hybrid Turret V = 3x Small Railgun Specialization IV = 3x Small Hybrid Turret V = 1x Support: controlled bursts = 2x motion prediction = 2x rapid firing = 2x surgical strike = 4x trajectory analysis = 5x weapon upgrades = 2x advanced weapon upgrades = 6x signature analysis = 1x I took two Caldari alts both started out equal stats, the one that went strickly missiles was in a Raven with support skills and Cruise T2 the other was gun training and she was Just getting into a Battleship with low skills but gunnery at large Special. Both startd the sametime
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.03.17 12:24:00 - [54] Originally by: Missle Rider So here is for cruise missile Specialization let compare (remember SUPPORT makes better but is NOT REQUIRED for either). Required: cruise missile specialization = 8x Cruise Missiles V = 5x Missile Launcher Operation V = 1x Heavy Missiles III = 3x Standard Missiles III = 3x Support: guided missile precision = 5x missile bombardment = 2x missile projection = 4x rapid launch = 2x target navigation prediction = 2x warhead upgrades = 5x Now lets look at Large Railguns Specilization Required: large railgun specialization = 8x Large Hybrid Turret V = 5x Gunnery V = 1x Sharpshooter V = 2x Medium Railgun Specialization IV = 5x Medium Hybrid Turret V = 3x Small Railgun Specialization IV = 3x Small Hybrid Turret V = 1x Support: controlled bursts = 2x motion prediction = 2x rapid firing = 2x surgical strike = 4x trajectory analysis = 5x weapon upgrades = 2x advanced weapon upgrades = 6x signature analysis = 1x I took two Caldari alts both started out equal stats, the one that went strickly missiles was in a Raven with support skills and Cruise T2 the other was gun training and she was Just getting into a Battleship with low skills but gunnery at large Special. Both startd the sametime you forgot weapon upgrades and advanced weapon upgrades for the cruise missiles ... they also apply to launchers so count as a support skill. and include gunnery for missiles, balistic control systems require gunnery 2 as skill prereq (item database). now look at what you can use as the rail user, all guns except t2 blasters ... the cruise user has no skill for torpedoes or rockets, also fof and defenders ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well ...
Leandro Salazar	Posted - 2006.03.17 13:04:00 - [55] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 17/03/2006 13:04:04 Those low end missile skills can easily be learned to a decent level (3) in no time though if desired. The gun user HAS to learn them to lvl5 (which is usually pure luxury rather than useful) which is a major time sink for next to no benefit. ___________________________________ Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?
homunculi	Posted - 2006.03.17 13:30:00 - [56] You ppl are always missing some things when comparing turrets and missiles, first, small turret is rank 1. There is no small missile skill but instead standard missiles and rockets, which combined are 3 ranks. Large turret is rank 5, there is no large missile skill but instead cruise missiles and torpedos, which combined are 9 ranks. If they split small turrets into two, for example small beams and small pulses and made one rank 1 and other rank 2, and the same for large turrets, you can start comparing it like you do. That means more ranks for turret users total, but all turret users "overlook" this all the time, wonder why... That being said, yes t2 missiles are very easy to use because it doesnt require as many lvl 5 skills, what could, and probably should, be done is to simply make the high dmg t2 missiles require warhead upgds lvl 5, adding 5 more ranks of training. And let the precision ones require guided missile precision lvl 5, also there another 5 ranks of training. But remember that whereas turret users got only small, medium and large turret skills, missiles users have alot more ranks total to max out their types of dmg tha turret users which cant be neglected like some ppl do all the time. Another good thing for turrets is that they got a rank 2 skill that give 4% better rof, whereas missiles got a rank 2 skil that give 3% better rof. And turrets got a rank 4 skill that give 3% better dmg whereas missiles got a rank 5 skill that give 2% better dmg. Now wheres the balance in that? ` Just want to add I have 2 chars, one with almost 9m in missiles and another with almost 6m in gunnery so Im using both and just point out pros and cons with each. It seems many ppl are just using one type and then "overlook" the pros of it and only see the cons when comparing to the other, goes for both missile and turret users.
Crellion	Posted - 2006.03.17 13:33:00 - [57] Haing 4x the skills in gunnery that I have in missles and 10x the amount of pvp kills in Eagle Mega Harpy Taranis Enyo Thorax than I have in Crow Cerberus Raven I can tell you the following with relative authority: - Missles were not balanced with Cold War. They were taken out of the equation for a bit to have a rethink. RMR brought the pvp balance and it is a fair and true balance. - Precision torps still need a substantial increase of the sig radius. - Precision cruise need a small increase of the sig radius. - Precision Heavies are just about right - Precision lights need to lose a huge amount of the speed penalty because at the moment a sane person would only use them on a cruiser while they are designed as (at least 50%) a frig class weaon). - Precision rockets are completely useless... at least in 99% of pvp situations. I cant speak for the mission *****s and the roid gobblers but I would be trully surprised if anybody who is involved in pvp a lot and can use both missles and turrets (including: 1- all "true" mattaris and not the low level SP ones that just stick a NOS in the missle slots out of necessity rather than choice 2- all true Caldaris and not those that only train missles to become l33t in bigger ship classes quicker 3- Those Gallente and Ammar pilots that also have minmattar or caldari ship and missle skills as well as their gun skills) would disagree with what I say above. My cause is that of people who want to paly all the game has to offer in pvp and have an interest to keep all weapon types balanced an effective. About those who like specialising in one thing only and therefore are eternally involved in a crusade of whining and whoring to keep "their" stuff better than the others' I couldnt care less because by definitation they will be biased and their opinions will always be incapable of entering a universal formula... I salute the views of Jusephine (or something ) and a few others in this thread... Crel out.
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.03.17 14:15:00 - [58] Originally by: homunculi You ppl are always missing some things when comparing turrets and missiles, first, small turret is rank 1. There is no small missile skill but instead standard missiles and rockets, which combined are 3 ranks. Large turret is rank 5, there is no large missile skill but instead cruise missiles and torpedos, which combined are 9 ranks. If they split small turrets into two, for example small beams and small pulses and made one rank 1 and other rank 2, and the same for large turrets, you can start comparing it like you do. That means more ranks for turret users total, but all turret users "overlook" this all the time, wonder why... That being said, yes t2 missiles are very easy to use because it doesnt require as many lvl 5 skills, what could, and probably should, be done is to simply make the high dmg t2 missiles require warhead upgds lvl 5, adding 5 more ranks of training. And let the precision ones require guided missile precision lvl 5, also there another 5 ranks of training. But remember that whereas turret users got only small, medium and large turret skills, missiles users have alot more ranks total to max out their types of dmg tha turret users which cant be neglected like some ppl do all the time. thank you. this is exactly the point I wanted to make clear, but obviously failed to describe it properly for the folks here to understand ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well ...
Nadec Ascand	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:09:00 - [59] hum i gonna point at this. I have 4m sp in gunnery and 2,5m in missile. In one hand i can use wepon hybrid up to med T2 (also large 3) and have support to 4 (except motion predition prerequisit for large spe to 5) and requisit skill for med T2. On the other han i have heavy missile T2 to 4 and all non T2 skill to 4 (except missile launcher to 5) so my question is where are the 1.5m sp i miss in missile... (and yeah cut it 700k xp for the advanced weapon upg and weapon upgrade.) so where is my 800k xp maybe in cruise 4 to 5 (1m sp) and lemme check 600k for surgical strike 5 (prerequisit to large T2 spec), now its 1,4m not wich leave me 400k ... lets check... large hybrid 5 1280k torp 5 1024k. hum u still win 250k add this 650k less to use torp and cruise than to use large hybrid T2... and pls for the masssssive dmg bonus we get from T2 weapon i will remind ya its 2% per level... not 20% and that even small blaster spec is rank 3,med 5, guess large 8 (dont have it as i said) And for the one going for the hypothesis omg i did fit precision cruise and im facing a BS argggggggg... i will tell ya 2 thing. Did u heard about the switch ammo button to use rage cruise angaint BS instead... Did u heard about range for turret and the omg i did warp at 40km when my blaster have an optimal of 6km... OMG our war have been hijack -eris What 0_o LMAO Nadec 4TW - Vanamonde Here start a new WAR => X - Wrangler
DayVV4lkEr	Posted - 2006.03.17 16:13:00 - [60] It might be, that Missiles are easier to start, but: 1. Missiles only have 1 launcher for close range and 1 for long range (compared to 3 for guns) means harder to fit 2. Missiles are even missing some kind of launchers (close range cruiser and long range dread) 3. for small rails and small blasters u have to train only 1 skill and that is medium hybrid turret, for rockets and light missiles u have to train 2 I have not seen a lot of pilots that only trained BS sized weapons and have only flown BS because that is simply boring. In the beginning it is true that missiles are easier in the beginning, but atm i'm looking at my misileskilltree and when i have finished the whoile tree i'm looking at 10m SP (finished means all specs 4 NOT 5) so i guess u need in the end more SP to be a perfect missile user then to be a perfect turret user of one race.
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.03.17 23:58:00 - [61] Originally by: J'val Iktar Ahahahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaha hahaha hahaha gasp hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha... No real bonus? Ahahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha hahaha... Hilarious Why don't you take some precision cruise/torps and go fight a Raven or Mega and see how much they help you? 've seen Eagles and cerbs get hit fully by cruise, so you're not getting any bonus from precision cruise against them either. If you think precision will matter VS a BS then you're either fighting a minnie with halo implants, or you're a dumbass. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:00:00 - [62] Originally by: J'val Iktar Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The cruise user can only use cruise missiles, the heavy turret user can use any t2 rail/blaster of large/med/small size. Good point, we should require standard missle 5 and heavy missle 5 to give missle users the same versatility that turret users enjoy. Sure thing. Go for it. Oh, and don't forget to make blasters and rails separate skills, and make small rails a rank 2 skill while you're at it. You don't want that? No, I didn't think so. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Horsefly	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:04:00 - [63] well I have all missile skills at lvl 5 for the standard and lvl 4 for the spec skills and gun boats will own you in a fight. So its ballanced in my eyes. plus you can destroy missiles and not turrets :)
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:05:00 - [64] Originally by: Missle Rider weapon upgrades = 2x advanced weapon upgrades = 6x Unless something changed, these skills affect missiles too. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:14:00 - [65] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: J'val Iktar Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The cruise user can only use cruise missiles, the heavy turret user can use any t2 rail/blaster of large/med/small size. Good point, we should require standard missle 5 and heavy missle 5 to give missle users the same versatility that turret users enjoy. Sure thing. Go for it. Oh, and don't forget to make blasters and rails separate skills, and make small rails a rank 2 skill while you're at it. You don't want that? No, I didn't think so. newsflash t2 rails and blasters have seperate skills (same with the other turret systems) small ones rank 3, medium rank 5, large rank 8 Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
MissileRus	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:17:00 - [66] now think of the poor minmatars that have to max both.. and if he would shoose a tempest just to get away from missiles he would have to realy max artillery before it can break any tanks. oh and without damage mods artillery cant do **** lol.. autocannons are nice though imo.. omg im whining! lol i wonder why theres so many ravens and caldari even the devs laugh at minmatar on radio so i have to post with a caldari alt.. but nvm that im not minm.. seriously im not.. stop laughing!! --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
Beringe	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:30:00 - [67] shrug Any missile user worth their salt has all those skills trained up to at least 4, anyway. Changing the requirements isn't going to be that big of a blow to cruise missile specialists. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language." --Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles--
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.18 00:35:00 - [68] Originally by: Beringe shrug Any missile user worth their salt has all those skills trained up to at least 4, anyway. Changing the requirements isn't going to be that big of a blow to cruise missile specialists. agreed i also dont want to see any change in missle t2 reqs, but missile users who try to argue that the current system doesnt favour them is funny its an advantage for missile users i can live with, any change wouldnt screw over caldari but the other races who often use missiles as 2ndary weaponsystem but plz dont act like its not an advantage (not directed at someone specific ) Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Malthros Zenobia	Posted - 2006.03.18 06:12:00 - [69] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 18/03/2006 06:13:54 Originally by: Tiuwaz Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: J'val Iktar Originally by: Malthros Zenobia The cruise user can only use cruise missiles, the heavy turret user can use any t2 rail/blaster of large/med/small size. Good point, we should require standard missle 5 and heavy missle 5 to give missle users the same versatility that turret users enjoy. Sure thing. Go for it. Oh, and don't forget to make blasters and rails separate skills, and make small rails a rank 2 skill while you're at it. You don't want that? No, I didn't think so. newsflash t2 rails and blasters have seperate skills (same with the other turret systems) small ones rank 3, medium rank 5, large rank 8 Way to miss the point. You train small/med/large turret skill to V, you can then train the blaster/rail specs. You train standards/heavies/cruise to V, you can't train rocket/torp spec, or heavy rockets when/if they come out. Turret whiners, if they got their way, would basicly require you to train rockets/assaults to V and spec to IV for torp spec, then standards and heavies to V and spec to IV for cruise. No way in hell is that going to ever happen. If you want missiles to follow T2 turret guidelines, then I want turrets to be broken up into individual weapon classes to compensate. Right now to swap from T2 large rails to T2 large blasters, you really only have to train small and med blaster spec to 4. Unless you want to train small blasters V, medium blasters V, and large blasters V as well, I suggest being quiet. However, the bottomline is that they won't combine missiles skills, or split turret skills, to balance training time, and they aren't going to screw with missile reqs for reasons others have given. Turret users don't seem to realize how much they will screw other turret users if their whines would get answered. edit: the 'you' in this is more to anti-missile whiners in general. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu I'm probably one of the biggest Bush fanboys in Eve... This is like, Darth Vader, can't-reach-climax-without-killing-a-puppy evil. RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran
Thomas Torquemada	Posted - 2006.03.18 06:33:00 - [70] Large blasters are a size of gun, sml/med/lrg, cruise dont have a size varient, there are only totally different missile types. UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace? Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide! Peace My Brothers...
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.03.18 06:45:00 - [71] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 18/03/2006 06:45:41 i'll state once more than i am fine with the current skillreqs for missiles Oke: Missiles have a prereqs tree just like turrets with the difference that CCP didnt follow throughwith t2 as they did with turrets check your t1 missile reqs: heavy missiles need standard missiles at 3, cruise and torp need heavy missiles at 3 (+standard missile at3) the natural progression for t2 would have been standard missiles at 5 for heavies and heavies at 5 for cruise/torps i am aware of the argument: but but we got 5 launchers to train for, while turret users only got 3 (which branch off at t2 into 6) its pretty invalid for the skill progression for t2 tough, as you'd have the same prereqs for large launchers as turret users do namely a med launcher skill to 5 (rank3) and a small launcher skill to 5 (rank1) that you have 5 launcher system to train for is a small disadvantage sp wise ( counting the t2 specialization (to lvl 4) different ranks etc ) in the amount of a rank 4 skill from 1-5 ca. if you calculate it with spec to lvl 5 then its pretty even with turret users at slight disadvantage but prereqs dont add any sp as such (and therefore i cant accept the 5 launchers to train argument), they only enforce a natural progression which doesnt exist anymore for t2 missile users i dont really care if they follow through with the natural progression for missile users aswell once day, but dont be too surprised if it happens one day. and you can see in the t1 prereqs tree how the t2 missile tree would look Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it! To the nerfmobile!
Vigilant	Posted - 2006.03.18 07:02:00 - [72] Why are we whining about missiles again ? to be affective... you have train all (keyword) to 5... not just the cruise to 5.... get over it
Dr Tetrahydrocannabinol	Posted - 2006.03.18 07:45:00 - [73] we have to train rails as well --------------------------------------------- <Make ECM Burst useful> ECM Burst Idea!

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