I think you're misusing the term here. "Tiericide" is meant to refer to a rebalancing aimed at eliminating traditional tiers. Blockade Runners and Deep Space Transports are not traditionally tiered and therefore are not part of tiericide.

go go people telling me why I'm wrong!

And I think you're missing the part of that which included the tech 2 ships being re-balanced into lines of their own.

The only thing IMO that would nice to be fixed on blockade runners is that idiotic un scannable cargo feature. It is a detriment not a benefit.

"Lines of their own". Do you mean tiers, are should the thread start with "Lineicide" instead? If you mean tiers, I must say that I was not aware of that Tech 2 ships of their own class were in tiers. CCP labelled the rebalancing of Tech 2 ships as merely the Tech 2 ship rebalance, associated with but not a part of tiericide.

Just had a potentially interesting idea pop into my head. What if a Medium MJD was introduced and could be fit on the transports rather than bubble immunity or warp strength?

I don't think they'd even need to introduce a new module. They could simply bonus the hull like they've done with Stealth Bombers ability to fit Torpedo Launchers. Personally, I'd like to see them rework the DST entirely, shift the cargo capacity upward, and use them to fill the gap between T1 Industrials and true Freighters.

I think you're misusing the term here. "Tiericide" is meant to refer to a rebalancing aimed at eliminating traditional tiers. Blockade Runners and Deep Space Transports are not traditionally tiered and therefore are not part of tiericide.

Orca already fills that role.

With the minor exception that absolutely NO ONE who hasn't suffered from either a mental meltdown or an autopilot bug takes an Orca INTO lowsec for cargo moving, unless it's under massive fleet protection, and scouted six ways from Udaema.

Blockade Runners & DST's give those who dwell in wormholes, lowsec, and, to a lesser extent, nullsec, the ability to move materials back and forth with only a small amount of assistance required, and with a fair chance at success.

Only someone who is completely ignorant of how lowsec works would ever consider such a massively idiotic proposal as using an Orca for this purpose. It's too slow, has only slightly more agility than a Titan, and accelerates into warp barely faster than my Thanny, although I could be wrong about that - it may actually be slower, I haven't flown my Orca in a while.

Moving cargo throughout lowsec and nullsec are what Transport-class ships are all about.

The Orca is a mining support vessel that can also be used to move Industrial-sized cargos in hisec.

Huge difference.

Do you actually read posts before responding to them?

Orca already fills that role.

"Lines of their own". Do you mean tiers, are should the thread start with "Lineicide" instead? If you mean tiers, I must say that I was not aware of that Tech 2 ships of their own class were in tiers. CCP labelled the rebalancing of Tech 2 ships as merely the Tech 2 ship rebalance, associated with but not a part of tiericide.

As for Deep Space Transports yeah well, I have two of them and haven't used them in years. Not for their intended purpose of lowsec hauling anyway. I think immunity to nontargeted warpdisruption, as mentioned by others before me, would be a great start. I think the problem lies a bit in the role definition aswell. If they are intended to be used without fleetsupport then you don't really need them. That's what BRs are for. If they were intended for use with fleets then you might aswell use a freighter or an Orca. I think there are few cases where you would mobilize some form of protection for a cargo that is too large for a BR and small enough for a DST.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on this subject: What else are DSTs used for or intended to be used for? Personally I used them for hauling stuff short distances in friendly 0.0 where any old tech 1 hauler would have done.

"Lines of their own". Do you mean tiers, are should the thread start with "Lineicide" instead? If you mean tiers, I must say that I was not aware of that Tech 2 ships of their own class were in tiers. CCP labelled the rebalancing of Tech 2 ships as merely the Tech 2 ship rebalance, associated with but not a part of tiericide.

The problem with this or other ideas about making DST into dangerous-space haulers is that it's impossible.

Well, not impossible per-se. You could make them completely immune to capture, but that's just stupid. The problem is, there is no way to balance a gate-camp passing ship other then giving it the ability to not get caught. No amount of tank, or warp stabilization, or even bubble immunity will make running a camp viable. Tank can easily be overwhelmed by a gang, stabilization by multiple tacklers/HIC, bubble immunity by a single interceptor. Sure, these things might get you past a lone sabre pilot or a really stupid camp, but strategies that rely on the incompetence of your opponents are never a good idea.

These ideas have all been suggested before, and some of them even tried before. None of them have worked. The rest are completely op.

The only way to make them work is give them very fast align and cloaking. We already have those in the form of blockade runners. These are so effective at their job that they have to be limited to 10k in cargo to maintain balance. I don't think this part needs to change.

The only place for DST to go is into a new role entirely, such as the mini-freighter (say, 100k cargo).

[quote=Felsusguy][quote=Justin Cody]Here's what I think should happen:
1. Blockade runners should, instead of getting a basic tank bonus, get agility, cargo capacity, sig radius reduction, and cloak CPU reduction across the board.

2. Deep space transports should get active and passive resist bonuses along their respective class lines (ex. gallente & min get active tanking, cal and amarr get resists).

3. Deep space transports get bonuses of 10% cargo capacity per level (two 5% bonuses roll into one), respective passive or active tank bonus, and +1 warp strength per level. Bubble immunity might also be a good idea, but make it so they can't fit cyno fields.

Role Bonus: Can fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device and Covert Cynosural Field Generator.
...

Aside from fixing the bonuses to be actually useful to each ship, I think DSTs and BRs are mostly fine. The fact that BRs are more popular and versatile isn't a problem. If the DST has a rather niche role that's okay.

DST's should get like 70% of the cargobay of a max-cargo itty 5 as a fixed bay (perhaps modified by the ship skill). Then it can actually fit for defense/agility.

DST's should get like 70% of the cargobay of a max-cargo itty 5 as a fixed bay (perhaps modified by the ship skill). Then it can actually fit for defense/agility.

Aside from the fact that they should at least be the size of the largest racial hauler available I agree with you. No cargo size reduction. If nothing else it should be expanded to like 70-90K considering the cost.

I would personally be okay with this, but iirc DST's carrying slightly less than max itty-5 is how it currently is, and that's with the DST being fully cargo fitted. I think giving it what i described would still be a rather large buff.

The main thing is that DST's shouldn't have to give up like 80% of their potential cargo just to be tanky (or fit for agility/wcs), which is kinda how it is now. Right now a fully-tanked DST is kind of pointless, you're better off with a faster and safer cargo-fit BR.

Placing DSTs somewhere in-between orcas and the itty 5 would be nice, although I think anything more than 50k m3 is a bit much.

crazy proposition:

-as someone stated, keep blockade runners as the stealthy and agile cloaked hauler, give it more agility bonuses or make them inmune to bubbles

-leave the tanking bonuses to the DSTs and adjust them to the current racial tanking doctrines (minmatar activer shield, caldari passive shield, gallente active armor, amarr buffer armor)

-change the +2 warp strength for something more ambitious, add an experimental jump drive. the DST would be the bulkier version which uses a jump device in order to avoid gatecamps....while the blockade runner can just get away undercovered, the jumpdrive used by the DSTs would be similar to those of black ops...

Personally one of the more interesting ideas.

The problem is that the "hauler" hulls are vastly less numerous (not counting the specialized T1s of the former Itty line), than the pew pew ships.

Basically haulers are:
T1 industrial: basic hauler
T1 Freighter: honking ass version of above
Orca: Can be tanker than a Freighter and can haul fitted ships, but is slow (ignoring mining bonuses since we're talking hauler use)
T2 Blockade Runner: About the same as a small T1 Industrial, but with fast aligns and a cloak
T2 Deep Space Transport: big, slow, and not so tanky
T2 Jump Freighter: not as big as a Freighter but has Jump engines

Honestly, I'd love to see the Deep Space Transports become something somewhere between a JF and an Orca (in terms of hauling).

Smaller hauling capacity than a JF, but with a jump drive and the ability to haul fitted ships (up to 1-2 BSes).

Useful in High-Sec for transporting/moving pre-fitted ships in bulk where Carriers can't go, Jump Drive for low/null, or can fly through gates like a Jump Freighter. For added fun, maybe give it a BlackOps style Jump Drive so it needs covert cynos?

I'm sure there are holes in this idea, feel free to pick, (like I could stop you if I wanted to ).

Bubble immunity is a funny thing. The main reason they did it with inties is because they could control its abuse with cynos via a tiny cargohold, but now ships like the stiletto are incredibly good for relic hunting. If DST were to be made bubble immune, they would have to have NO highslots, or CCP doing something radical like making ice products be only able to be carried in a special bay, and adding bays to covops, recon, blops, etc.

Your definition of what haulers are falls a bit short due to new ship lines. You should re-examine them. DST's are supposed to be spacious and tanky...but yes slow. Blockade Runners are not only fast but also apparently unknown to you...they can be covert bridged by a black ops BS. They can also light a covert cyno...although only the prowler is currently truly capable at this in a reasonable manner.

No need for jump drive equipped haulers when you can covert bridge a warpy-cloaky secretly into any system in EVE short of W-space. The DST needs to be about 70K in discrete cargo (expanders have no effect) and have their slots for tank. The Bustard and Mastodon need slot increases in their mids to make them viable along side a base HP increase. And I do believe that having bubble immunity is necessary for travel in a null sec specialized vessel. Get rid of the warp care stabilization. I can always fit warp core stabs if I want to balance against tank.

Amazing. I'm assuming they can also fit fitted ships, since that was the middle part of the idea you glossed over.

I missed CCP adding these T2 ship transporters. I seem to be so completely unfamiliar with them. I'll go try one out immediately.

The suggestions of adding in bubble immunity are very misguided. If you have a shred of skill you wouldn't be jumping into bubbles anyways, use a damn inty scout! The last thing we need is for EVE to be constantly dumbed down and yet again be put on easy mode.

The way they should be fixed is to get rid of the rep bonus, make it a resist bonus, boost the EHP slightly, maybe boost the cargo space a tiny bit and allow us to fit a decent tank on there.

Lets look at the Viator for example.



Yeah, sure it can, with just it's one high slot. They do need looked at, but any suggestion of bubble immunity is quite frankly just stupid. Even interceptors didn't really need it since you're going over 5 KM/s and quickly escaped from them. But y'know :easymode:


:bittervet:

Logically, DST's should carry a lot more cargo and somehow be able to get around most of low/null space successfully most of the time.

Bubble immunity is a funny thing. The main reason they did it with inties is because they could control its abuse with cynos via a tiny cargohold, but now ships like the stiletto are incredibly good for relic hunting.

lol whut.

Cynoceptors are a thing and relic site hunting in ceptors is not.

Pretty much THIS.

Not sure where some of these narratives come about. At cyno 5 with a crow you need a single cargo rig to drop a cyno.

That's it. done deal. The only thing that stops that from being broken is that you can't drop a black ops cyno like that.

For DST's how about them getting a cargo hold of about 75-100k base but not allowing them to fit hull modifications (cargo expanders, inertia stabs, bulkheads, nanos) so it will allow them to fit tank or stabs and adjusting their slots accordingly. Skill bonuses could still increase cargo if you want but could also be geared towards survivability, maybe increase base HP stats to around the Procurer/Skiff level (maybe).

DSTs do not need to be unscannable and neither BRs nor DSTs need bubble immunity.

cargo should be scannable but I disagree about the bubble immunity. We will likely never convince one another otherwise.

afraid I have to agree, but I do believe that DST's should NOT be able to drop a cyno - if only by adding the following field to the cyno attributes:
Cannot be fitted to: Transport Ships, Interceptors

cargo should be scannable but I disagree about the bubble immunity. We will likely never convince one another otherwise.

If you die in a bubble with a BR then you very much deserve it. And the person that kills you very much deserves the kill. BRs are already very good and very useful and its very hard to die in them.


With a DST, you shouldn't ever be anywhere near a bubble in the first place.

Well they can't warp cloaked and they only have 1 high slot and are very slow. T3's can warp cloaked, drop a covert cyno have more tank and be immune to bubbles ~and~ have over all more slots for utility.

not sure why this is a sticking point for you.

Deep Space Transport = Battleship-like-tank Massive Hold Hauler.

Give the DST's a Battleship-like Armor/Shield pool, with appropriate low/mid slot layout.

Give two or three high-slots, and enough grid to fit weapons (unbonused) or Neuts.

I think there are some really good points there.

Switching the unscannable cargo from Blockade Runner to DST is a great idea, as is giving Blockade Runners another highslot to fit a covert cyno.

Replacing warp core strength on DST with bubble immunity is pretty good too. I wouldn't like to see bubble immunity being overly widely used as a bonus, but T3 cruisers can have a CovOps cloak _and_ bubble immunity. Bubble immunity alone for the DST wouldn't imo be OP but it might just be compelling enough to start to see the DST being used in null.

Off Topic: I think bubble immunity for inties was a terrible idea, and I think that the overuse of homogenous inty gangs through nullsec has now pretty much proved that it was a terrible idea, so it should be rolled back.

Thats the summary of what I've been promoting...aside from adding bubble immunity to it. You would still be able to fit nanos and inertia stabilizers or warp core stabs. All that gimps your tank and so is an acceptable trade-off. So Yes to massive but static cargo capacity.

Do you actually read posts before responding to them?