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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.03.19 22:52:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Serenity Steele on 19/03/2006 22:56:33
Investor interest in ISS outpost developments currently exceeds supply, so ISS are looking to leverage this market situation by extending the ISS Marginis outpost corporations portfolio by adding an Amarr Factory Outpost in the same constellation. The current factory queues in ISS Marginis are constantly at 5+ days.
Placement of a second outpost in such close proximity will have both economic and defensive impact on ISS Marginis. Therefor, before creating a separate corporation, existing ISS Marginis shareholders are being offered to vote on extending the ISS Marginis corporation through an additional public offering of Shares.
THE VOTE There is now a vote to extend the shares in ISS Marginis Corporation by issuing an additional 2300 shares at 15m isk each to raise 34.5bn ISK for building a Factory Outpost under the control of the ISS Marginis Corporation.
Full details on the risks, benefits and budget can be found HERE
HOW TO VOTE - Open your wallet, click on the 'Shares' tab - Right Click on your ISS Marginis shares and select 'votes' - Find the Share Issue Vote - Click on Yes (or) No
DISCUSSION This thread has been opened for discussing the pros and cons of voting yes or no. Please respect the purpose of this thread Please respect the purpose of this thread.
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Astarte Nosferatu
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Posted - 2006.03.19 22:54:00 -
[2]
Good luck, although there's a 's' to much in the link, ISSS instead of ISS.
Originally by: Santiago Cortes
Thread has gone wildly off-topic, flamebait and little desire on anyone's part to read what anyone else has written.
Member of the [23] |
AvanCade
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:09:00 -
[3]
I say its more benefical in the long run..gg ISS
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:18:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Good luck, although there's a 's' to much in the link, ISSS instead of ISS.
Cheers. Corrected :) |
Raq Werop
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:31:00 -
[5]
Will these shares be offered directly to EVE wide community or will they first be offered to neighbouring alliances? |
Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:35:00 -
[6]
From the web-site:
Quote: - Shares will go on sale publicly (no multiphase investment) ...
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:39:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/03/2006 23:40:05 I have voted no to this with all my shares.
IMO it would be a much better idea to have the shares seperate from the current Marginis outpost project. I, as a shareholder, do not want to shoulder risk that I have not paid for. If the outpost doesn't end up paying out well like the original did, my profits from dividends would go down, as the profits from Marginis would be spread out over more people.
I would fully support such a plan.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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Konietzko
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:44:00 -
[8]
I vote yes.
[botox bandits : pirates]
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Lilan Kahn
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:47:00 -
[9]
I vote for a pay rise!
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Tar Ecthelion
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:53:00 -
[10]
I vote for free Quafe to all visitors to ISS Marginis
.....
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Ashis
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Posted - 2006.03.19 23:57:00 -
[11]
I'm voting no on this - Although it is a tough call - offering the shares publicly before first offering the to existing shareholders that invested in this project back when there was a lot less certainty about its success doesn't strike me the right way.
Buying shares in Marginis was a much bigger risk then in Borealis, or in Providence - before IIS had proven it's worth.
Shares in Marginis are currently selling on the Eve-o forums for 6 times there initial worth, these shares will be devalued if they are all of a sudden sold at 15mil. No doubt with this vote share prices will fall already.
I would easily reconsider this vote if the first phase of the project was opened to the existing shareholders first, those that took the chance, and that have the most to lose from this investment. If the existing shareholders do not provide the necessary funds to expand then I would have no problems with new investors coming in.
As an investor in each of the IIS projects I would hope that this offering to existing shareholders first becomes the pattern moving forward.
Respectfully, __________
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FowlPlayChiken
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Posted - 2006.03.20 00:03:00 -
[12]
whats to stop marginis from being obsolete and the factory becoming the new trade hub?
Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler |
Masta Killa
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Posted - 2006.03.20 00:08:00 -
[13]
Will us who'll gank you all at that particular outpost at one point have any say in this?
Tbh I have many ideas why you shouldn't expand, but since ISS is generally a mean, evil alliance, they won't listen to my ideas. --------------------------------------
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Josclyn Verreuil
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Posted - 2006.03.20 00:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: FowlPlayChiken whats to stop marginis from being obsolete and the factory becoming the new trade hub?
They could restrict docking at the factory.
~Clan Verreuil |
CtapikKozlodoyev
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Posted - 2006.03.20 00:25:00 -
[15]
Mastah, dont forget they are also liers and thieves! Scooter still didn't get his crows fyi.
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.03.20 00:32:00 -
[16]
Well, more factory slots are very much needed, it would be tremendously useful.
I have a crapload of BPO's just waiting for a slot :)
Btw, the queues in Marginis are now at 10 days
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O Thief
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Posted - 2006.03.20 00:34:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ashis I'm voting no on this - Although it is a tough call - offering the shares publicly before first offering the to existing shareholders that invested in this project back when there was a lot less certainty about its success doesn't strike me the right way.
Buying shares in Marginis was a much bigger risk then in Borealis, or in Providence - before IIS had proven it's worth.
Shares in Marginis are currently selling on the Eve-o forums for 6 times there initial worth, these shares will be devalued if they are all of a sudden sold at 15mil. No doubt with this vote share prices will fall already.
I would easily reconsider this vote if the first phase of the project was opened to the existing shareholders first, those that took the chance, and that have the most to lose from this investment. If the existing shareholders do not provide the necessary funds to expand then I would have no problems with new investors coming in.
As an investor in each of the IIS projects I would hope that this offering to existing shareholders first becomes the pattern moving forward.
Respectfully,
The reason they are not doing that is because of the first phase sell-out with Providence.
They need diversity in their shareholders, it adds security to the investment.
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static zero
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Posted - 2006.03.20 00:34:00 -
[18]
It seems to me that expanding Marginis will be quite risky in and of itself. Presumably, the new outpost would be built in a nearby star system, if not in KDF-GY itself. ISS have depended on secrecy as well as military power to keep its projects from being attacked. However, one of those factors is greatly diminished in this case.
Serenity, can you comment on placement and operational security? (Without necessarily revealing details, of course.)
Thank you
-static zero |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.03.20 00:44:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/03/2006 00:43:48
Originally by: FowlPlayChiken whats to stop marginis from being obsolete and the factory becoming the new trade hub?
Marginis has the market and is seeded by NAGA...
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
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cirya
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Posted - 2006.03.20 02:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: O Thief
Originally by: Ashis I'm voting no on this - Although it is a tough call - offering the shares publicly before first offering the to existing shareholders that invested in this project back when there was a lot less certainty about its success doesn't strike me the right way.
Buying shares in Marginis was a much bigger risk then in Borealis, or in Providence - before IIS had proven it's worth.
Shares in Marginis are currently selling on the Eve-o forums for 6 times there initial worth, these shares will be devalued if they are all of a sudden sold at 15mil. No doubt with this vote share prices will fall already.
I would easily reconsider this vote if the first phase of the project was opened to the existing shareholders first, those that took the chance, and that have the most to lose from this investment. If the existing shareholders do not provide the necessary funds to expand then I would have no problems with new investors coming in.
As an investor in each of the IIS projects I would hope that this offering to existing shareholders first becomes the pattern moving forward.
Respectfully,
The reason they are not doing that is because of the first phase sell-out with Providence.
They need diversity in their shareholders, it adds security to the investment.
I can see both points but I have to agree that orginal investers should have the option to add to thier holdings. lets remember investors are taking a chance in allowing the expansion.If for some reason this doesnt work not only do they loose on the expansion. shairs would be worth half what they currently are in the case of a 2nd outpost failing. I do not beleve this likely. But i belevel that the founding investors who are still invested should be given the option of doubling thier current shairs by buying a like amount frist.
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Ashis
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Posted - 2006.03.20 04:33:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Ashis on 20/03/2006 04:34:25
Originally by: O Thief
The reason they are not doing that is because of the first phase sell-out with Providence.
They need diversity in their shareholders, it adds security to the investment.
On your first point - that being that the project to expand Marginis had been accelerated because of the sell-out with Providence. First of all, I think it has been made clear (and correct me if I am wrong) that this expansion was a plan, and the plan was accelerated. I don't know why ISS feels it needs to accelerate anything in order to please non-investors over existing investors - but that's not my call. My concern is that the initial investors shares are treated with respect. The best way to make opportunities for new investors is with new projects - not by splicing and dicing previous and proven agreements (particularly when the prinicple hasn't even been paid back!).
Your second and seperate point - that ISS needs to diverify their shareholders. I would suggest that more shareholders does not neccesarily mean a more diverse group of shareholders. Although it is possible, it is also possible that a single alliance buys the entire volume of shares the second that they go on the market - making the ratio of diversification actually less.
ISS has directly deflated the price and value of their shareholders shares with this announcement, any potential buyer is much wiser to wait to see if more shares will go on the market rather then paying the prices in auction, and that seems to go against the initial plan that Marginis stood for - and I would very much appreciate someone deccelerating this plan before a poor example of stockholder treatment tarnishes an otherwise phenomenal application of the ingame share system.
There are broader implications brought up in the thread as well - for example, what if ISS puts up another outpost that saps the business from Marginis? Again, this is an issue of integrity. What company would ask initial shareholders to take a significant risk, only to turn around and ask a second and seperate group of shareholders to take a lesser risk, and then make the 2 companys compete against each other? Certainly it has been done, and the ISS has every "right" to do that, but if the ISS begins to operate with that level of integrity then I do hope that furture shareholders realize that they too will be treated with that level of integrity.
IMHO, there are 3 options: 1) Begin a seperate project disconected from Marginis that will not endanger the initial stockholders investments, and distant enough so as not to cause direct competition.
2) Allow the existing Shareholders a first phase to purchase shares in the new outpost and open it up to public buyers in the case that those shares arent sold (which, admittedly, I doubt).
3) All of the above, in any order.
I have nothing but respect for ISS - and if this post is taken any other way then it is taken the wrong wrong way. I do believe that someone needs to critically think through this from an investors perspective because frankly, and for the first time, I'm scared for my investment. __________
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Flourite
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Posted - 2006.03.20 06:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lilan Kahn I vote for a pay rise!
As an investor I vote you shut up.
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Fraps
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Posted - 2006.03.20 06:44:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ashis Second Edit: I think it would have been more responsible of ISS to allow for this thread and conversation before asking for a vote - instead there is potential for a lot of knee-jerk reaction in game without knowing that these issues can be discussed here. And on a higher level, it would be much more fun to see the different sides debate it out and then call for a vote :) -- Just a respectful suggestion for the future.
A knee-jerk reaction is just what I had, I was all set to vote yes before even thinking about it. after reading the ISS website about the exspanion and the threads in here I am leaning very strongly towards no. I would rather the two phase offering suggested above go into effect. simply to help myself secure more shares(nothing wrong with looking out for #1) and while others may not agree. I believe allowing the shareholders to purchase these shares first only adds to security as they will now have a more vested interest in the security of the area. from the looks of the above posts this is going to be a close vote.
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Frederick Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.03.20 07:48:00 -
[24]
Quote: I read over my comment after the fact, and I wanted to say one more thing - thank you CCP for making a game where this kind of conversation and conflict can happen.
QFT. We love you CCP.
Quote: I think it would have been more responsible of ISS to allow for this thread and conversation before asking for a vote - instead there is potential for a lot of knee-jerk reaction in game without knowing that these issues can be discussed here. And on a higher level, it would
This plan was mentioned as part of the Borealis announcement a week ago (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?=topic&threadID=307344). Perhaps it should have been a little more public.
And now, some commentary of my own.
I think this project would have directly benefitted from two things, neither of which are available / feasable at this time. Firstly, a real stock market would have helped. The ability to properly monitor what the current share trading price is would have allowed the shares to be issued at that price, rather than attempts to work out what their value might be from forum sell orders. This would have helped to protect the current share price and the investment made so far.
Second, better tools to track and communicate with shareholders. In an ideal world this vote and announcement would have been made privately to the shareholders complete with an invitation to a private shareholders meeting where this could have been debated. This would have protected the share price and trading until after the decision was made.
Both of these are 99% wishful thinking. And 1% unsubtle hint. :)
Next, some thoughts on the project itself. The market at Marginis will benefit from more factories. Ships in particular are difficult to haul in, taking a freighter through 0.0 is a risk. Constructing on site is far easier and safer. with more factories available then the availability of ships, modules and disposables like ammo should increase, the market grow and sales tax and shoppers improve. However, having built at the factory, I'm inclined to sell at the factory rather than ship across to Marginis. This will negativly impact upon the amount of traffic going to Marginis and thus it's dividends. By issuing more shares from Marginis rather than starting a seperate company the inital investors are protected. Of course this also increases the number of shares which reduces dividends unless profits rise to match this increase.
In conclusion, I would consider this a vote on the following question. Will the addition of a factory outpost next to Marginis to aid and support the market including four more offices result in a 40% increase in gross profits of the Marginis Corporation to offset the increased number of shares? If yes then you have little to lose. If no, then the addition of a factory in any shape will not be a benefit.
I'm inclined to believe that it will.
And with that said, can I get some inital figures on how much it might cost to rent a factory slot, inital and per hour? I'd like to run some numbers... Lyrus Associates is recruiting |
Frederick Lyrus
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Posted - 2006.03.20 07:48:00 -
[25]
First off, please don't take this post as a direct criticism. It's just you've got one of the more reasoned posts which makes it easier to respond to. Second, these are my opinions as an investor, I have no standing in the ISS.
Originally by: Ashis Your second and seperate point - that ISS needs to diverify their shareholders. I would suggest that more shareholders does not neccesarily mean a more diverse group of shareholders. Although it is possible, it is also possible that a single alliance buys the entire volume of shares the second that they go on the market - making the ratio of diversification actually less.
Accurate but unlikely, at this point no alliance has just bought any of the preceding IPOs outright and several of them have had just as much opportunity as they would have here. The reason for making it directly public is to address the criticism and unhappyness that the Providence sellout caused. Several people did threaten the Providence project with attacks since they were unable to buy shares (whether or not they'd have attacked anyway is a seperate matter).
Quote: ISS has directly deflated the price and value of their shareholders shares with this announcement, any potential buyer is much wiser to wait to see if more shares will go on the market rather then paying the prices in auction, and that seems to go against the initial plan that Marginis stood for - and I would very much appreciate someone deccelerating this plan before a poor example of stockholder treatment tarnishes an otherwise phenomenal application of the ingame share system.
Regretfully true. The prices might return to where they where promptly if the vote fails, they might even spike if it succeeds. This is always going to happen though, any plan to change or grow will always increase risk and undercut buyer confidence causing a slump in prices. Even selling shares to existing shareholders or running the project as a seperate investment would have had this effect.
Quote: IMHO, there are 3 options: 1) Begin a seperate project disconected from Marginis that will not endanger the initial stockholders investments, and distant enough so as not to cause direct competition.
The problem with this is it runs directly counter to the goal of the project, the station is supposed to be near Marginis so that Marginis is supplyed with factories to feed it's market, which Marginis really needs if it's to grow at this point. If this is far away then it won't achieve that.
Now, keeping the new station close but running it as a seperate company has other problems. All stations have markets, it's an unfortunate aspect that cannot be changed. This might mean that all the traffic is sucked from Marginis undermining the dividends payed out there.
Now, what Marginis does have is many offices that will serve to maintain a reasonable income but if all the traffic goes then it will be reduced.
Quote: 2) Allow the existing Shareholders a first phase to purchase shares in the new outpost and open it up to public buyers in the case that those shares arent sold (which, admittedly, I doubt).
This might serve to protect current investors, it has two problems. It might sell out before it goes public (good for current investors, less good for the ISS) and there exists no way to accuratly tell who is a current investor. Not all share trades are done with the ISS as a broker and there are no mechanics to query if someone has shares. Thus if you can offer a reliable way to carry this out, feel free to suggest it.
-- continued. Lyrus Associates is recruiting |
Fraps
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Posted - 2006.03.20 08:57:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Fraps on 20/03/2006 09:00:10
Originally by: Frederick Lyrus
The problem with this is it runs directly counter to the goal of the project, the station is supposed to be near Marginis so that Marginis is supplyed with factories to feed it's market, which Marginis really needs if it's to grow at this point. If this is far away then it won't achieve that.
Im not a POS expert,though this may be a well known fact anyway. but can't you build ships at a POS with the proper aray anchored?
if this is possible why not do that to increase production capabililty?
I know some one will point out the risk of letting anyone and everyone have access to your POS. but couldn't that be curbed by using a contract system to allow certian ISS personal to build ships at the POS for others. they could charge a fee same as the station or maybe alittle more. this would relieve the problem of the long line in the station as well as add another division the to the ISS that could be profitable.
again i don't know much about POSs but this seems like a good idea to me.
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Karazack
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Posted - 2006.03.20 09:37:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Karazack on 20/03/2006 09:43:27 On the one hand I can fully understand the current shareholders who are afraid of losing money which admittedly is a risk but far away from a certainty.
On the other hand imho there are reasons to extend the shares of the current Marginis Corp rather then just opening a new corp for the next outpost nearby (which would find more then enough investors anyway no doubt)
a) Security: more investors means lesser risk of attack and more people willing to defend their investments if need be.
If you always let the first group of investors buy all shares of new projects in the first investment phase, there will be a growing group of people full of envy in your profits which could ruin your entire investments and the whole project.
b) In the long run the ISS goal is a civilian infrastructure in deep 0.0 space if I understand that right. That means the construction of not 6, not 10 but more likely hundreds of outposts in the LONG run. Are you gonna open a new corp for every of this new outposts? Sounds very complicated to me.
c) Think about the spirit of ISS. Was your investment in the risky first projects only about the money or because you share ISS¦s goals and spirit? If so, why dont take another risk now and help the abitious project (and your overall profit) in the long run?
If I understand the entire deep space colonization project correctly it is just in the beginning and there is room for much more profit not only for you (the current investors) but hopefully for a lot more people.
I for once would love to invest, but not only in a profitable prioject but also in a great idea which deserves support and should not be crippled by profit-thinking alone ;)
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Lilan Kahn
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Flourite
Originally by: Lilan Kahn I vote for a pay rise!
As an investor I vote you shut up.
wish full thinking is allowed.
If the 2 outposts are run under the same holding corp i cant see the issue.
1. it woudnt matter if trade whent either way the cut woud stil end up divide 2. addet incom of the factory slots (think the amarr one have 35 slots) so they woud generate alot of revenue (omg did she say we woud make more mony ?) 3. i dont have to wait so long for damn rifters and other frigs to get thure the que 4. marginis stil has the most corp offices so corps baseing out of it woud stil base out of it
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Rusom Rokath
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:38:00 -
[29]
I voted no with all my shares. I'll tell you why.
First of all, the benefits that you mention on your site, are valid if you build a new outpost near Marginis, even if you don't issue new shares, but start a new holding corp. The only way share dividend would increase further, is if the new outpost would turn out to be more profitable then the current one. All the other points are just as valid for any scenario.
Second, the risks you mention are only valid if you issue new shares. A new holding corp would mean eliminating those risks for current shareholders alltogether.
The last problem I have is that by creating 2300 new shares at 15 mil, you are in fact turning the intrinsic price of the shares into a little under 12 million. You'll have 5900 shares for a total of 70.5 billion. Might be something you want to add the benefits/risks (depending on what side you're on). Doesn't seem right to me not to mention this on the official site.
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.03.20 10:55:00 -
[30]
Originally by: static zero Serenity, can you comment on placement and operational security? (Without necessarily revealing details, of course.)
Let me just say that the security budget for deployment is 2.5x as large as any other ISS Outpost Project to-date.
The location will be placed to leverage rumoured Kali features of constellation sovereignty (sentry guns) should the feature be implemented.
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