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ISS Marginis Corporation Shareholder Vote

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Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.19 22:52:00 - [1] Edited by: Serenity Steele on 19/03/2006 22:56:33 Investor interest in ISS outpost developments currently exceeds supply, so ISS are looking to leverage this market situation by extending the ISS Marginis outpost corporations portfolio by adding an Amarr Factory Outpost in the same constellation. The current factory queues in ISS Marginis are constantly at 5+ days. Placement of a second outpost in such close proximity will have both economic and defensive impact on ISS Marginis. Therefor, before creating a separate corporation, existing ISS Marginis shareholders are being offered to vote on extending the ISS Marginis corporation through an additional public offering of Shares. THE VOTE There is now a vote to extend the shares in ISS Marginis Corporation by issuing an additional 2300 shares at 15m isk each to raise 34.5bn ISK for building a Factory Outpost under the control of the ISS Marginis Corporation. Full details on the risks, benefits and budget can be found HERE HOW TO VOTE - Open your wallet, click on the 'Shares' tab - Right Click on your ISS Marginis shares and select 'votes' - Find the Share Issue Vote - Click on Yes (or) No DISCUSSION This thread has been opened for discussing the pros and cons of voting yes or no. Please respect the purpose of this thread Please respect the purpose of this thread.
Astarte Nosferatu	Posted - 2006.03.19 22:54:00 - [2] Good luck, although there's a 's' to much in the link, ISSS instead of ISS. Originally by: Santiago Cortes Thread has gone wildly off-topic, flamebait and little desire on anyone's part to read what anyone else has written. Member of the [23]
AvanCade	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:09:00 - [3] I say its more benefical in the long run..gg ISS
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:18:00 - [4] Originally by: Astarte Nosferatu Good luck, although there's a 's' to much in the link, ISSS instead of ISS. Cheers. Corrected :)
Raq Werop	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:31:00 - [5] Will these shares be offered directly to EVE wide community or will they first be offered to neighbouring alliances?
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:35:00 - [6] From the web-site: Quote: - Shares will go on sale publicly (no multiphase investment) ...
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:39:00 - [7] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/03/2006 23:40:05 I have voted no to this with all my shares. IMO it would be a much better idea to have the shares seperate from the current Marginis outpost project. I, as a shareholder, do not want to shoulder risk that I have not paid for. If the outpost doesn't end up paying out well like the original did, my profits from dividends would go down, as the profits from Marginis would be spread out over more people. I would fully support such a plan. [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
Konietzko	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:44:00 - [8] I vote yes. [botox bandits : pirates]
Lilan Kahn	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:47:00 - [9] I vote for a pay rise! Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
Tar Ecthelion	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:53:00 - [10] I vote for free Quafe to all visitors to ISS Marginis .....
Ashis	Posted - 2006.03.19 23:57:00 - [11] I'm voting no on this - Although it is a tough call - offering the shares publicly before first offering the to existing shareholders that invested in this project back when there was a lot less certainty about its success doesn't strike me the right way. Buying shares in Marginis was a much bigger risk then in Borealis, or in Providence - before IIS had proven it's worth. Shares in Marginis are currently selling on the Eve-o forums for 6 times there initial worth, these shares will be devalued if they are all of a sudden sold at 15mil. No doubt with this vote share prices will fall already. I would easily reconsider this vote if the first phase of the project was opened to the existing shareholders first, those that took the chance, and that have the most to lose from this investment. If the existing shareholders do not provide the necessary funds to expand then I would have no problems with new investors coming in. As an investor in each of the IIS projects I would hope that this offering to existing shareholders first becomes the pattern moving forward. Respectfully, __________
FowlPlayChiken	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:03:00 - [12] whats to stop marginis from being obsolete and the factory becoming the new trade hub? Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler
Masta Killa	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:08:00 - [13] Will us who'll gank you all at that particular outpost at one point have any say in this? Tbh I have many ideas why you shouldn't expand, but since ISS is generally a mean, evil alliance, they won't listen to my ideas. --------------------------------------
Josclyn Verreuil	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:11:00 - [14] Originally by: FowlPlayChiken whats to stop marginis from being obsolete and the factory becoming the new trade hub? They could restrict docking at the factory. ~Clan Verreuil
CtapikKozlodoyev	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:25:00 - [15] Mastah, dont forget they are also liers and thieves! Scooter still didn't get his crows fyi.
O Thief	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:32:00 - [16] Well, more factory slots are very much needed, it would be tremendously useful. I have a crapload of BPO's just waiting for a slot :) Btw, the queues in Marginis are now at 10 days
O Thief	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:34:00 - [17] Originally by: Ashis I'm voting no on this - Although it is a tough call - offering the shares publicly before first offering the to existing shareholders that invested in this project back when there was a lot less certainty about its success doesn't strike me the right way. Buying shares in Marginis was a much bigger risk then in Borealis, or in Providence - before IIS had proven it's worth. Shares in Marginis are currently selling on the Eve-o forums for 6 times there initial worth, these shares will be devalued if they are all of a sudden sold at 15mil. No doubt with this vote share prices will fall already. I would easily reconsider this vote if the first phase of the project was opened to the existing shareholders first, those that took the chance, and that have the most to lose from this investment. If the existing shareholders do not provide the necessary funds to expand then I would have no problems with new investors coming in. As an investor in each of the IIS projects I would hope that this offering to existing shareholders first becomes the pattern moving forward. Respectfully, The reason they are not doing that is because of the first phase sell-out with Providence. They need diversity in their shareholders, it adds security to the investment.
static zero	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:34:00 - [18] It seems to me that expanding Marginis will be quite risky in and of itself. Presumably, the new outpost would be built in a nearby star system, if not in KDF-GY itself. ISS have depended on secrecy as well as military power to keep its projects from being attacked. However, one of those factors is greatly diminished in this case. Serenity, can you comment on placement and operational security? (Without necessarily revealing details, of course.) Thank you -static zero
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2006.03.20 00:44:00 - [19] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/03/2006 00:43:48 Originally by: FowlPlayChiken whats to stop marginis from being obsolete and the factory becoming the new trade hub? Marginis has the market and is seeded by NAGA... [23] Member: Official Forum Warrior What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
cirya	Posted - 2006.03.20 02:41:00 - [20] Originally by: O Thief Originally by: Ashis I'm voting no on this - Although it is a tough call - offering the shares publicly before first offering the to existing shareholders that invested in this project back when there was a lot less certainty about its success doesn't strike me the right way. Buying shares in Marginis was a much bigger risk then in Borealis, or in Providence - before IIS had proven it's worth. Shares in Marginis are currently selling on the Eve-o forums for 6 times there initial worth, these shares will be devalued if they are all of a sudden sold at 15mil. No doubt with this vote share prices will fall already. I would easily reconsider this vote if the first phase of the project was opened to the existing shareholders first, those that took the chance, and that have the most to lose from this investment. If the existing shareholders do not provide the necessary funds to expand then I would have no problems with new investors coming in. As an investor in each of the IIS projects I would hope that this offering to existing shareholders first becomes the pattern moving forward. Respectfully, The reason they are not doing that is because of the first phase sell-out with Providence. They need diversity in their shareholders, it adds security to the investment. I can see both points but I have to agree that orginal investers should have the option to add to thier holdings. lets remember investors are taking a chance in allowing the expansion.If for some reason this doesnt work not only do they loose on the expansion. shairs would be worth half what they currently are in the case of a 2nd outpost failing. I do not beleve this likely. But i belevel that the founding investors who are still invested should be given the option of doubling thier current shairs by buying a like amount frist.
Ashis	Posted - 2006.03.20 04:33:00 - [21] Edited by: Ashis on 20/03/2006 04:34:25 Originally by: O Thief The reason they are not doing that is because of the first phase sell-out with Providence. They need diversity in their shareholders, it adds security to the investment. On your first point - that being that the project to expand Marginis had been accelerated because of the sell-out with Providence. First of all, I think it has been made clear (and correct me if I am wrong) that this expansion was a plan, and the plan was accelerated. I don't know why ISS feels it needs to accelerate anything in order to please non-investors over existing investors - but that's not my call. My concern is that the initial investors shares are treated with respect. The best way to make opportunities for new investors is with new projects - not by splicing and dicing previous and proven agreements (particularly when the prinicple hasn't even been paid back!). Your second and seperate point - that ISS needs to diverify their shareholders. I would suggest that more shareholders does not neccesarily mean a more diverse group of shareholders. Although it is possible, it is also possible that a single alliance buys the entire volume of shares the second that they go on the market - making the ratio of diversification actually less. ISS has directly deflated the price and value of their shareholders shares with this announcement, any potential buyer is much wiser to wait to see if more shares will go on the market rather then paying the prices in auction, and that seems to go against the initial plan that Marginis stood for - and I would very much appreciate someone deccelerating this plan before a poor example of stockholder treatment tarnishes an otherwise phenomenal application of the ingame share system. There are broader implications brought up in the thread as well - for example, what if ISS puts up another outpost that saps the business from Marginis? Again, this is an issue of integrity. What company would ask initial shareholders to take a significant risk, only to turn around and ask a second and seperate group of shareholders to take a lesser risk, and then make the 2 companys compete against each other? Certainly it has been done, and the ISS has every "right" to do that, but if the ISS begins to operate with that level of integrity then I do hope that furture shareholders realize that they too will be treated with that level of integrity. IMHO, there are 3 options: 1) Begin a seperate project disconected from Marginis that will not endanger the initial stockholders investments, and distant enough so as not to cause direct competition. 2) Allow the existing Shareholders a first phase to purchase shares in the new outpost and open it up to public buyers in the case that those shares arent sold (which, admittedly, I doubt). 3) All of the above, in any order. I have nothing but respect for ISS - and if this post is taken any other way then it is taken the wrong wrong way. I do believe that someone needs to critically think through this from an investors perspective because frankly, and for the first time, I'm scared for my investment. __________
Flourite	Posted - 2006.03.20 06:20:00 - [22] Originally by: Lilan Kahn I vote for a pay rise! As an investor I vote you shut up.
Fraps	Posted - 2006.03.20 06:44:00 - [23] Originally by: Ashis Second Edit: I think it would have been more responsible of ISS to allow for this thread and conversation before asking for a vote - instead there is potential for a lot of knee-jerk reaction in game without knowing that these issues can be discussed here. And on a higher level, it would be much more fun to see the different sides debate it out and then call for a vote :) -- Just a respectful suggestion for the future. A knee-jerk reaction is just what I had, I was all set to vote yes before even thinking about it. after reading the ISS website about the exspanion and the threads in here I am leaning very strongly towards no. I would rather the two phase offering suggested above go into effect. simply to help myself secure more shares(nothing wrong with looking out for #1) and while others may not agree. I believe allowing the shareholders to purchase these shares first only adds to security as they will now have a more vested interest in the security of the area. from the looks of the above posts this is going to be a close vote.
Frederick Lyrus	Posted - 2006.03.20 07:48:00 - [24] Quote: I read over my comment after the fact, and I wanted to say one more thing - thank you CCP for making a game where this kind of conversation and conflict can happen. QFT. We love you CCP. Quote: I think it would have been more responsible of ISS to allow for this thread and conversation before asking for a vote - instead there is potential for a lot of knee-jerk reaction in game without knowing that these issues can be discussed here. And on a higher level, it would This plan was mentioned as part of the Borealis announcement a week ago (http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?=topic&threadID=307344). Perhaps it should have been a little more public. And now, some commentary of my own. I think this project would have directly benefitted from two things, neither of which are available / feasable at this time. Firstly, a real stock market would have helped. The ability to properly monitor what the current share trading price is would have allowed the shares to be issued at that price, rather than attempts to work out what their value might be from forum sell orders. This would have helped to protect the current share price and the investment made so far. Second, better tools to track and communicate with shareholders. In an ideal world this vote and announcement would have been made privately to the shareholders complete with an invitation to a private shareholders meeting where this could have been debated. This would have protected the share price and trading until after the decision was made. Both of these are 99% wishful thinking. And 1% unsubtle hint. :) Next, some thoughts on the project itself. The market at Marginis will benefit from more factories. Ships in particular are difficult to haul in, taking a freighter through 0.0 is a risk. Constructing on site is far easier and safer. with more factories available then the availability of ships, modules and disposables like ammo should increase, the market grow and sales tax and shoppers improve. However, having built at the factory, I'm inclined to sell at the factory rather than ship across to Marginis. This will negativly impact upon the amount of traffic going to Marginis and thus it's dividends. By issuing more shares from Marginis rather than starting a seperate company the inital investors are protected. Of course this also increases the number of shares which reduces dividends unless profits rise to match this increase. In conclusion, I would consider this a vote on the following question. Will the addition of a factory outpost next to Marginis to aid and support the market including four more offices result in a 40% increase in gross profits of the Marginis Corporation to offset the increased number of shares? If yes then you have little to lose. If no, then the addition of a factory in any shape will not be a benefit. I'm inclined to believe that it will. And with that said, can I get some inital figures on how much it might cost to rent a factory slot, inital and per hour? I'd like to run some numbers... Lyrus Associates is recruiting
Frederick Lyrus	Posted - 2006.03.20 07:48:00 - [25] First off, please don't take this post as a direct criticism. It's just you've got one of the more reasoned posts which makes it easier to respond to. Second, these are my opinions as an investor, I have no standing in the ISS. Originally by: Ashis Your second and seperate point - that ISS needs to diverify their shareholders. I would suggest that more shareholders does not neccesarily mean a more diverse group of shareholders. Although it is possible, it is also possible that a single alliance buys the entire volume of shares the second that they go on the market - making the ratio of diversification actually less. Accurate but unlikely, at this point no alliance has just bought any of the preceding IPOs outright and several of them have had just as much opportunity as they would have here. The reason for making it directly public is to address the criticism and unhappyness that the Providence sellout caused. Several people did threaten the Providence project with attacks since they were unable to buy shares (whether or not they'd have attacked anyway is a seperate matter). Quote: ISS has directly deflated the price and value of their shareholders shares with this announcement, any potential buyer is much wiser to wait to see if more shares will go on the market rather then paying the prices in auction, and that seems to go against the initial plan that Marginis stood for - and I would very much appreciate someone deccelerating this plan before a poor example of stockholder treatment tarnishes an otherwise phenomenal application of the ingame share system. Regretfully true. The prices might return to where they where promptly if the vote fails, they might even spike if it succeeds. This is always going to happen though, any plan to change or grow will always increase risk and undercut buyer confidence causing a slump in prices. Even selling shares to existing shareholders or running the project as a seperate investment would have had this effect. Quote: IMHO, there are 3 options: 1) Begin a seperate project disconected from Marginis that will not endanger the initial stockholders investments, and distant enough so as not to cause direct competition. The problem with this is it runs directly counter to the goal of the project, the station is supposed to be near Marginis so that Marginis is supplyed with factories to feed it's market, which Marginis really needs if it's to grow at this point. If this is far away then it won't achieve that. Now, keeping the new station close but running it as a seperate company has other problems. All stations have markets, it's an unfortunate aspect that cannot be changed. This might mean that all the traffic is sucked from Marginis undermining the dividends payed out there. Now, what Marginis does have is many offices that will serve to maintain a reasonable income but if all the traffic goes then it will be reduced. Quote: 2) Allow the existing Shareholders a first phase to purchase shares in the new outpost and open it up to public buyers in the case that those shares arent sold (which, admittedly, I doubt). This might serve to protect current investors, it has two problems. It might sell out before it goes public (good for current investors, less good for the ISS) and there exists no way to accuratly tell who is a current investor. Not all share trades are done with the ISS as a broker and there are no mechanics to query if someone has shares. Thus if you can offer a reliable way to carry this out, feel free to suggest it. -- continued. Lyrus Associates is recruiting
Fraps	Posted - 2006.03.20 08:57:00 - [26] Edited by: Fraps on 20/03/2006 09:00:10 Originally by: Frederick Lyrus The problem with this is it runs directly counter to the goal of the project, the station is supposed to be near Marginis so that Marginis is supplyed with factories to feed it's market, which Marginis really needs if it's to grow at this point. If this is far away then it won't achieve that. Im not a POS expert,though this may be a well known fact anyway. but can't you build ships at a POS with the proper aray anchored? if this is possible why not do that to increase production capabililty? I know some one will point out the risk of letting anyone and everyone have access to your POS. but couldn't that be curbed by using a contract system to allow certian ISS personal to build ships at the POS for others. they could charge a fee same as the station or maybe alittle more. this would relieve the problem of the long line in the station as well as add another division the to the ISS that could be profitable. again i don't know much about POSs but this seems like a good idea to me.
Karazack	Posted - 2006.03.20 09:37:00 - [27] Edited by: Karazack on 20/03/2006 09:43:27 On the one hand I can fully understand the current shareholders who are afraid of losing money which admittedly is a risk but far away from a certainty. On the other hand imho there are reasons to extend the shares of the current Marginis Corp rather then just opening a new corp for the next outpost nearby (which would find more then enough investors anyway no doubt) a) Security: more investors means lesser risk of attack and more people willing to defend their investments if need be. If you always let the first group of investors buy all shares of new projects in the first investment phase, there will be a growing group of people full of envy in your profits which could ruin your entire investments and the whole project. b) In the long run the ISS goal is a civilian infrastructure in deep 0.0 space if I understand that right. That means the construction of not 6, not 10 but more likely hundreds of outposts in the LONG run. Are you gonna open a new corp for every of this new outposts? Sounds very complicated to me. c) Think about the spirit of ISS. Was your investment in the risky first projects only about the money or because you share ISS¦s goals and spirit? If so, why dont take another risk now and help the abitious project (and your overall profit) in the long run? If I understand the entire deep space colonization project correctly it is just in the beginning and there is room for much more profit not only for you (the current investors) but hopefully for a lot more people. I for once would love to invest, but not only in a profitable prioject but also in a great idea which deserves support and should not be crippled by profit-thinking alone ;)
Lilan Kahn	Posted - 2006.03.20 10:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Flourite Originally by: Lilan Kahn I vote for a pay rise! As an investor I vote you shut up. wish full thinking is allowed. If the 2 outposts are run under the same holding corp i cant see the issue. 1. it woudnt matter if trade whent either way the cut woud stil end up divide 2. addet incom of the factory slots (think the amarr one have 35 slots) so they woud generate alot of revenue (omg did she say we woud make more mony ?) 3. i dont have to wait so long for damn rifters and other frigs to get thure the que 4. marginis stil has the most corp offices so corps baseing out of it woud stil base out of it Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
Rusom Rokath	Posted - 2006.03.20 10:38:00 - [29] I voted no with all my shares. I'll tell you why. First of all, the benefits that you mention on your site, are valid if you build a new outpost near Marginis, even if you don't issue new shares, but start a new holding corp. The only way share dividend would increase further, is if the new outpost would turn out to be more profitable then the current one. All the other points are just as valid for any scenario. Second, the risks you mention are only valid if you issue new shares. A new holding corp would mean eliminating those risks for current shareholders alltogether. The last problem I have is that by creating 2300 new shares at 15 mil, you are in fact turning the intrinsic price of the shares into a little under 12 million. You'll have 5900 shares for a total of 70.5 billion. Might be something you want to add the benefits/risks (depending on what side you're on). Doesn't seem right to me not to mention this on the official site.
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.20 10:55:00 - [30] Originally by: static zero Serenity, can you comment on placement and operational security? (Without necessarily revealing details, of course.) Let me just say that the security budget for deployment is 2.5x as large as any other ISS Outpost Project to-date. The location will be placed to leverage rumoured Kali features of constellation sovereignty (sentry guns) should the feature be implemented.
Butter Dog	Posted - 2006.03.20 11:28:00 - [31] My personal viewpoint is that the Marginis project is being held back by the lack of factory slots. A trade hub needs an accessible supply of goods. The 10 day production queues in KDF are a testament to the pent-up demand. Living full time in KDF as I do, I feel that the second outpost would add real value to the existing organisation. The Providence outposts are an almost identical proposition, and if people believed in that to the tune of 70bn ISK of investment, there is every reason to believe in the expansion of the Marginis project. The question I personally believe investors should ask themselves is: Are you happy with the status quo? Is this as good as it gets? Or are you willing to push that little bit further, and in the process further develop this troubled corner of 0.0 space. ------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting. See this thread for further details. www.eve-iss.com
Rusom Rokath	Posted - 2006.03.20 11:51:00 - [32] Originally by: Butter Dog My personal viewpoint is that the Marginis project is being held back by the lack of factory slots. A trade hub needs an accessible supply of goods. The 10 day production queues in KDF are a testament to the pent-up demand. Living full time in KDF as I do, I feel that the second outpost would add real value to the existing organisation. The Providence outposts are an almost identical proposition, and if people believed in that to the tune of 70bn ISK of investment, there is every reason to believe in the expansion of the Marginis project. The question I personally believe investors should ask themselves is: Are you happy with the status quo? Is this as good as it gets? Or are you willing to push that little bit further, and in the process further develop this troubled corner of 0.0 space. This vote isn't about wheter or not there should be a second outpost. It's about wheter or not current Marginis shareholders are willing to put their current investment at risk for a little more (possible) profitability or are they content with a (possible) smaller increase in profitability for no added risk.
Butter Dog	Posted - 2006.03.20 12:30:00 - [33] Originally by: Rusom Rokath This vote isn't about wheter or not there should be a second outpost. It's about wheter or not current Marginis shareholders are willing to put their current investment at risk for a little more (possible) profitability or are they content with a (possible) smaller increase in profitability for no added risk. Again - a personal viewpoint: I do appreciate that, I guess what I feel is that if the second outpost goes ahead regardless and is phenomenally successful, the value of your investment in the single station will be undermined whereas with the combined stations, you reap the benefits of both. They are complimentary outposts after all - much like the two providence outposts. To me, personally, it would make less sense to sell off the shares in the second outposts through a seperate company when the two outposts will co-exist and compliment each other. Also, its a lot easier to defend two nearby outposts than two further apart, where the benefits of each will not be fully enjoyed. ------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting. See this thread for further details. www.eve-iss.com
sledg hammer	Posted - 2006.03.20 12:39:00 - [34] Edited by: sledg hammer on 20/03/2006 12:40:13 Originally by: Serenity Steele Originally by: static zero Serenity, can you comment on placement and operational security? (Without necessarily revealing details, of course.) Let me just say that the security budget for deployment is 2.5x as large as any other ISS Outpost Project to-date. The location will be placed to leverage rumoured Kali features of constellation sovereignty (sentry guns) should the feature be implemented. I am not concerned with security.The iss has learned and improved on this score.and the whining and crying that is going on in this thred is by thoes who would be the frist to buy if it was limited to current investors.the term ipo is the wrong term to use here. this is a stock issuing, wile i wish i could invest more then i currently have, i do not beleve limiting it to the current investors to be a great idea. but thats what is happing here. i have no doubt that if it were offered to the current investors it would sell out faster then the last time.i beleved that i had a week to come up with investment capitol in the last week i went from 300 mil to 1.8 bil and was ready to invest it in this project. i have no doubt that others here have far greater resources then i do. so its to be an open offering so what. we have the same chance as any one else. i just wish there was a real way to buy and sell the stock. then i could really make isk. i vote yes for the expansion
Omber Zombie	Posted - 2006.03.20 14:40:00 - [35] oddly enough i am a shareholder (bizarre i know) and tbh, I agree fully with everything you are doing except 1 thing - setting a definate price on the new shares. If the shares were auctioned off in minimum lots of 10 and at a minimum price of 15m per share (total 150mil min investment) I would be a lot more inclined to support the vote. As you have said yourself, shares are volatile and usually trade from 15-20mil- why not use that volatility to reward your intitial investors by paying out a new dividend based on the shares achieving a market sale price beyond the required priceto fund the new outpost? Yes, the new purchasers are gambling on the price, but italso allows current shareholders to bid on the new stock and if that means driving the price up - so be it. ---------------------- Originally by: Seleene I maintain that OZ is evil and have nothing further to add.
Ashis	Posted - 2006.03.20 15:44:00 - [36] The biggest single issue was hit on the head by Rusom Rokath: Originally by: Rusom Rokath This vote isn't about wheter or not there should be a second outpost. It's about whether or not current Marginis shareholders are willing to put their current investment at risk for a little more (possible) profitability or are they content with a (possible) smaller increase in profitability for no added risk. As Rusom has said, The question on the vote is specific - do you want to create x number of shares that will be sold on the public market and used to build a second outpost? To that question I answer no. If the question was - do you want to create another x number of shares that will be sold to shareholders (first) and then on the public market, and that will build a second outpost? To that question my answer is yes - although obviously not all shareholders will agree. A defeat in this vote does not mean that the outpost shouldn't be built, it simply means that the way it is going about being built is not popular. I wouldn't want to see ISSs plans get squashed - just the manner in which they are proceeding with them. Originally by: Butter Dog To me, personally, it would make less sense to sell off the shares in the second outposts through a seperate company when the two outposts will co-exist and compliment each other. Also, its a lot easier to defend two nearby outposts than two further apart, where the benefits of each will not be fully enjoyed. I agree - but again, this isn't the question. The question put to vote isn't "Would you issue shares of the existing Marginis Corp rather then create a new corp to fully handle the new outpost?" If that was the question I would begrudingly vote yes - but again, we get into a huge integrity issue here if ISS is going to start setting up second projects that directly compete and effect the profitability of their previous projects. From that perspective it seems that - unknown to the initial investors at the time, the greatest threat to their investment wasn't pirates, or alliance wars, or lack of market, rather the initial and biggest threat is and was the ISS. Originally by: Serenity Steele Marginis shares were NEVER sold on the premise of Paying back the principle. The were sold on Return on Investment of 60% per year (5% per month). With all respect Serenity - there are few things that can be said about the temperment of investors, but one of those things is that precious few in Eve would have invested in this project outside of the ISS if they didn't think they would get there money back with a little on the side. ROI of 60% per annum just means that we were expecting it back in a little less then 2 years. And, we always had the option of selling off our shares, but that option has significantly decreased in value as well. My investment was not intended as a donation to the ISS. Originally by: Serenity Steele A seperate outpost will sap business away from Marginis, Is my point about the integrity of this project appreciated then? I will requote it here: Originally by: Ashis There are broader implications brought up in the thread as well - for example, what if ISS puts up another outpost that saps the business from Marginis? Again, this is an issue of integrity. What company would ask initial shareholders to take a significant risk, only to turn around and ask a second and seperate group of shareholders to take a lesser risk, and then make the 2 companys compete against each other? Certainly it has been done, and the ISS has every "right" to do that, but if the ISS begins to operate with that level of integrity then I do hope that future shareholders realize that they too will be treated with that level of integrity. Whether you are opening up more shares in the existing Marginis corp, or you are creating a new corp, either way you are bringing on a new body of investors that will directly compete with your existing, and loyal investors. For the reasons I have stated __________
Ashis	Posted - 2006.03.20 15:45:00 - [37] For the reasons I have stated above, that is concerning. Originally by: Serenity Steele As a CEO of the marginis corporation, I see it as a duty to the investors to identify opportunities and risks to their investment. Yes that may sometimes carry more risk - lest shareholders forget, they are shareholders in a outpost investment venture in the middle of a war zone in 0.0. This isn't a caldari government bond. Agreed. Thank you for bringing this opportunity to the forefront - I for one appreciate it. However you are over simplifying: we are not talking about 100% risk or 100% no-risk - we are talking about the shades of gray in between. And as CEO of Marginis Corporation it is not your duty to assess that risk for the inidividual investor; that shade of gray is for each existing stock holder to assess. For my part I think you have a great idea, but I think the implementation needs a little tweaking. Introduce the 2 staged buying process. Originally by: Omber Zombie As you have said yourself, shares are volatile and usually trade from 15-20mil- why not use that volatility to reward your intitial investors by paying out a new dividend based on the shares achieving a market sale price beyond the required priceto fund the new outpost? This is an excellent idea - and if the vote went through it better mitigates the risk of the current investors. Any excess would need to be reissued with a dividend payment before the new shares were issued. Originally by: Fraps from the looks of the above posts this is going to be a close vote. I don't know about this. No one knows what percentage of the Outpost is owned by ISS or votes that the ISS control in one fashion or another. Likewise, the way that the vote was implemented threw the investors the voting buttons before having a spirited debate, like the one we are having here, with only the Marginis II ISS page up for consideration. For those to reasons alone I would be very surprised if this vote didn't carry through near uncontested. I obviously can have no problem with the ISS controling the lions share of the stock - they have more to lose then anyone - fact is that the rest of us may just be along for the ride without any say in the direction. I do have an issue with the way that this vote was brought about before there was any discussion on the specifics. __________
Lilan Kahn	Posted - 2006.03.20 15:48:00 - [38] Lets say the new outpost gets build under a new corp, the factory slots generate alot of incom and 70% of the trade starts to move that way, then your margines shares are gonna drop in worth are you willing to risk that ? Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
spoias	Posted - 2006.03.20 16:06:00 - [39] Originally by: Lilan Kahn Lets say the new outpost gets build under a new corp, the factory slots generate alot of incom and 70% of the trade starts to move that way, then your margines shares are gonna drop in worth are you willing to risk that ? errr...ok...are you even reading the other posts now or are you just randomly typing obvious questions?
Lilan Kahn	Posted - 2006.03.20 16:17:00 - [40] Originally by: spoias Originally by: Lilan Kahn Lets say the new outpost gets build under a new corp, the factory slots generate alot of incom and 70% of the trade starts to move that way, then your margines shares are gonna drop in worth are you willing to risk that ? errr...ok...are you even reading the other posts now or are you just randomly typing obvious questions? i coud ask the same of you Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
spoias	Posted - 2006.03.20 16:21:00 - [41] Originally by: Lilan Kahn i coud ask the same of you ... lol - do you want me to quote where this question has been asked, and answered, like 15 times!!!!! noob. Hukt un fawnics wurct fur u! Get a:
Lilan Kahn	Posted - 2006.03.20 16:23:00 - [42] the question havent ben asked its like omfg dont build it kek my shares wil losse value but nvm if you dont get what im saying im not wasting time on you Originally by: Eris Discordia We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
Rusom Rokath	Posted - 2006.03.20 16:25:00 - [43] Originally by: Lilan Kahn Lets say the new outpost gets build under a new corp, the factory slots generate alot of incom and 70% of the trade starts to move that way, then your margines shares are gonna drop in worth are you willing to risk that ? Let's say the votes turns out to be yes, and the new outpost gets destroyed before being deployed, therefore diluting current Marginis profits over more shares. Are you willing to risk that? If the vote turns out to be no, I fully expect ISS to manage their outposts in such a way that Marginis shareholders don't get screwed. They were, and probably for a large part still are (like myself), among the first to invest in an outpost. They took the risk before ISS had proven itself to be capable of making an outpost a success. ISS has a responsibility to their shareholders, and that is to make the shares as profitable as possible. I understand that ISS has the view that issueing new shares is the best way to go about it, but if the majority of the shareholders think otherwise, that doesn't release them from their duty to keep the best interests of all of their shareholders in mind.
Butter Dog	Posted - 2006.03.20 16:40:00 - [44] Interesting debate, I must say. Makes a refreshing change on these forums :) The impression I get is that if the existing shareholders got 'first refusal' on the new stock issue, they would be more inclined to vote yes. Which I can understand, but they must also recognise that, as someone highlighted, increasing shareholder diversity is cruicial to the continuing security and success of the outpost. As I understand it, ISS control a minority of the stock (if the projections on the purchase of the Providence shares are anything to go by), so I don't think its an issue of ISS 'railroading' other shareholders into this. Not when the majority of the stock lies outside the ISS, and not when many exisiting shareholders who happen to be within the ISS may feel the same as some of the shareholders here who intend to vote 'no'. But one thing I do think people need to realise is that, based on my experience of living full time in KDF, we need this factory outpost. I personally believe it is going to add tremendous value to the Marginis corporation and will further increase the security of the investment. ------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting. See this thread for further details. www.eve-iss.com
350125GO	Posted - 2006.03.20 17:09:00 - [45] What strikes me as odd it the prevalent fear that this move would somehow be bad for investors. This is a vote for expansion, and voting no is suggesting that the company (ISS Marginis) shouldn't expand. How about an analogy? Let's say you own shares in Home Depot (HD), and HD wanted to expand it's buisness by opening new stores throught North America. To raise the capital to do this they have to issue 1 million new shares. So they take an average selling price of the current shares and make that the offering price of the new shares. They sell the new shares and raise the money. They don't ask investors if they think this is a good idea, but if they did, how many investors would vote against opening new stores? There is an inherent risk in expansion, but the odds of a payoff on this risk are favorable.
Drunk Driver	Posted - 2006.03.20 17:25:00 - [46] As I've stated before some investors are not happy with the way ISS is running things. Right now ISS trade routes are far from secure. Pirates joke about ISS as a ôhoney potö that attracts fat targets. That is not good news for players wishing to use ISS facilities. ItÆs all about security. If ISS canÆt secure their trade routes then building more stations will not generate more profit. Secure ISS routes and trade will increase. Increased trade means more stations. If trade dies due to pirate attacks then having one, two or fifty stations will not matter in the slightest.
Rusom Rokath	Posted - 2006.03.20 17:27:00 - [47] Edited by: Rusom Rokath on 20/03/2006 17:28:15 Originally by: 350125GO What strikes me as odd it the prevalent fear that this move would somehow be bad for investors. This is a vote for expansion, and voting no is suggesting that the company (ISS Marginis) shouldn't expand. How about an analogy? Let's say you own shares in Home Depot (HD), and HD wanted to expand it's buisness by opening new stores throught North America. To raise the capital to do this they have to issue 1 million new shares. So they take an average selling price of the current shares and make that the offering price of the new shares. They sell the new shares and raise the money. They don't ask investors if they think this is a good idea, but if they did, how many investors would vote against opening new stores? There is an inherent risk in expansion, but the odds of a payoff on this risk are favorable. Home Depot doesn't operate in lawless teritory. If they build a new store, they don't run the risk of it getting blown up. Their customers don't usually run the risk of being killed right before they enter the store. I have no problems with a second outpost to compliment Marginis, that's not the question. The question is if I should put my investment at risk, or if I think there are better ways of financing a second outpost.
cirya	Posted - 2006.03.20 17:35:00 - [48] Originally by: Lilan Kahn Originally by: spoias Originally by: Lilan Kahn Lets say the new outpost gets build under a new corp, the factory slots generate alot of incom and 70% of the trade starts to move that way, then your margines shares are gonna drop in worth are you willing to risk that ? errr...ok...are you even reading the other posts now or are you just randomly typing obvious questions? i coud ask the same of you just a treat for future investors see how were going to treat you do what we say or else
Butter Dog	Posted - 2006.03.20 17:36:00 - [49] Originally by: Drunk Driver As I've stated before some investors are not happy with the way ISS is running things. Right now ISS trade routes are far from secure. Pirates joke about ISS as a ôhoney potö that attracts fat targets. That is not good news for players wishing to use ISS facilities. ItÆs all about security. If ISS canÆt secure their trade routes then building more stations will not generate more profit. Secure ISS routes and trade will increase. Increased trade means more stations. If trade dies due to pirate attacks then having one, two or fifty stations will not matter in the slightest. Dear alt troll who only appears on ISS-related threads to say the same thing, As has been stated to you now on a number of occasions, by various people, on a number of threads, the investors are not worried about ISS haulers getting ganked in 0.0 - its always going to happen, and it has not hampered the success of the outposts. This is the simple fact you must deal with. Pirates are a fact of life in 0.0 and thats never going to change. Its not a new factor and its quite simply irrelevant in the context of this thread. ISS actively monitor ship losses and I can tell you now - the losses we experience through random pirating are minimal compared to overall operations. The outposts have been successful, they pay good dividends on investments, the odd gauler gank in the travel pipes means nothing - so please take your fatally flawed one-track arguement elsewhere, because you quite simply do not know what you are talking about. Additional outposts will increase the number of friendlies in the area, not decrease it, which has a detterent effect on causal pirating. ------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting. See this thread for further details. www.eve-iss.com
Aphroditi	Posted - 2006.03.20 17:45:00 - [50] Hi. I'm involved in real stock market. So I would like to help you a bit with few ideas who can be used in the game. a) The whole approach is wrong. Serenity first had to see (ask the shareholders since we do not have a valid stock market), what their shares value is. Without question they worth more than 15m. Then when she have that share value, need to create (new shares) = (Outpost project cost) / (share value accepted by the share holders). Those new shares then need to go out to the market and people (or the share holders) will buy them. The actual value of the shares is the same for the new and the old share holders and none will have a reason not to be happy. b) By voting no right now, the only people who lose are the existing share holders. Why? because the 2nd outpost will start making profit against their own interest. And ofc they will be 2 competitive outposts on the same area. If ISS do not operate both the outposts as equal (with competition between them) and try to protect Marginis, the new company share holders will feel (and MUST be) unsafe about their investment. c) By voting yes you don't lose but since the shares value atm is higher than 15m (around 25m) then you lose 10m per share and have to wait few months again to be back on track. I believe the best for the shareholders (i'm not and I want to invest) is the a) option. None lose. ISS will have the funds to create the outpost. Shareholders will be happy for their new price of their shares and ofc the profit growth. Thank you
Kular	Posted - 2006.03.20 18:53:00 - [51] I voted yes because I want my shares to operate both Outposts, but I agree with Omber Zombie and the poster above, the price needs changed. Let the Market price be the share price. Omber's idea would probably be the best solution, as trying to get the shareholders to "settle" on a price would take forever. I see them sell between 20-50M currently, depending on the buyers. Start a public auction for shares in blocks of 50 or something, and let Market prices decide the value of shares. The Extra isk can be a reward for both old and new shareholders! For God, Empire, and Sarum!
Scetrov	Posted - 2006.03.20 20:34:00 - [52] Standing as I am as an outsider, I would like to see new shares in ISS Marginis being released onto the public "stock market". I do however agree that they should be set at a price that the shareholders agree is fair price for their shares. The shareholders would then have to weigh up the advantages of having a high share price, and the advantages of new investors actually being able to invest in the project (i.e. not outpricing the majority of potential investors.) I would be disappointed in a auction style share release, as this prevents people like myself who would like to invest but, however would not be happy liquidating assets knowing that I would have to potentialy liquidate more than I would require to purchace the shares (and equaly not have enough liquid ISK to purchace shares). All IMHO of course.
static zero	Posted - 2006.03.20 22:04:00 - [53] Originally by: Frederick Lyrus I think this project would have directly benefitted from two things, neither of which are available / feasable at this time. Firstly, a real stock market would have helped. The ability to properly monitor what the current share trading price is would have allowed the shares to be issued at that price, rather than attempts to work out what their value might be from forum sell orders. Agreed. I hope CCP will consider adding these tools, now that the need for them is here. In this discussion I do see one potential issue. ISSMO acts as a trusted third-party broker for share sales. They have the information on the market, and they can also issue new shares, diluting the value of the current shares. Seems to me there's a conflict of interest there, but I can't think of a way to resolve it with the in-game tools we have. Maybe we need another corp, a true third party, to act as the EVE stock exchange. Originally by: Frederick Lyrus In conclusion, I would consider this a vote on the following question. Will the addition of a factory outpost next to Marginis to aid and support the market including four more offices result in a 40% increase in gross profits of the Marginis Corporation to offset the increased number of shares? After researching secondary offerings, I must agree. The key issue is share value dilution. Can Marginis pull it off? Will the Amarr factory installation support the additional business? I think it will do at least 40% more business than Marginis alone does today. At the same time, I'm not entirely happy with a secondary offering without the current market price clearly understood. Can ISSMO perhaps calculate an average of the market price and consolidate it into a single number? Or perhaps Omber Zombie's auction model would work better in this case. Additionally, I would not want to see a separate holding company go up to support construction of the new outpost. Personally, I am willing to assume the risk to reap the benefits of a second outpost. As Aphroditi says, a second holding corp would leave me feeling more unsafe about my investment, forcing me to own stock in both holding corps to hedge my investment. If ISSMO can better calculate the current market price and offer the new shares at or near that price, I shall vote "yes" to this measure. (As an aside, googling "secondary share offering" brought up resources I found useful in learning about this subject. The Motley Fool had particularly useful information on their site, about the process and about RL public companies that have made secondary offerings. I found that it's uncommon, but not unheard-of, for secondary share offers to be made under market price. Generally those maneuvers incite investor revolt :) -static zero
Gossip	Posted - 2006.03.20 22:48:00 - [54] After reading the replies and thinking about the options I had to vote yes for the simple reason that when the new outpost is build (and it will come) my current shares should benefit from it as it will be a heavy compeditor off the current one. Im also inclined to assume that the shares currently in my posetion will not suffer much in value as this will most likelly increase revenue so beter diffident were people will want to have there piece off. Im only disappointed that they will be immidiatly released to the public, instead off first offering them to there exsisting shareholders off margins (yes only margins) as they took the first step and risking capital. Maybe split the stock like 40/60 (shareholders/public) to have benefits for both sides? ---- The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless. For if it is formless, no spy can discern it nor the wise make plans against it. Sun Tzu, the art of war
Frederick Lyrus	Posted - 2006.03.20 23:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Rusom Rokath First of all, the benefits that you mention on your site, are valid if you build a new outpost near Marginis, even if you don't issue new shares, but start a new holding corp. The only way share dividend would increase further, is if the new outpost would turn out to be more profitable then the current one. All the other points are just as valid for any scenario. Second, the risks you mention are only valid if you issue new shares. A new holding corp would mean eliminating those risks for current shareholders alltogether. Some numbers, given the current proposed number of shares then the new outpost would have to increase the profits by the Marginis Corporation by 40% ( 2300 / 2300+3600 ). From the last dividend this means an increase in income of around 700 million isk per month. Four more offices gives 200 million, meaning that there has to be about 500 million from docking fees and rental of labs and factories. Anything more than this increases the profits. However, the benefits of the new outpost may not exist for the Marginis holders should a new corporation be opened. Consider the worst case scenario, the factory station opens and the market and all the traffic moves there. Marginis corporation only recieves money from office rental and a few people docking. Dividends would probably halve. By issuing from the same corporation you are protected from this and benefit should the new station increase trade and profit. Quote: The last problem I have is that by creating 2300 new shares at 15 mil, you are in fact turning the intrinsic price of the shares into a little under 12 million. You'll have 5900 shares for a total of 70.5 billion. Might be something you want to add the benefits/risks (depending on what side you're on). Doesn't seem right to me not to mention this on the official site. By this logic, it's to your benefit. There are currently 3600 shares for a paper value of 36 billion isk, 10 million per share. After the new shares are issued, they're worth a paper value of 12 million isk each. Instant 20% improvement in value. Actually, I think I've misread the point you're making. Changing tack, Marginis shares are currently valued at over their paper value. As such, they must have some intrinsic worth of more than just the inital cost of the outpost and as such issuing them at more than they might technically be worth is not incorrect. Any investor should investigate the situation and make certain they are happy with what they are purchasing. Originally by: Omber Zombie oddly enough i am a shareholder (bizarre i know) and tbh, I agree fully with everything you are doing except 1 thing - setting a definate price on the new shares. If the shares were auctioned off in minimum lots of 10 and at a minimum price of 15m per share (total 150mil min investment) I would be a lot more inclined to support the vote. Actually, I like this idea. It's more work and more hassle, but 20 lots of 10 shares auctioned at a minimum of 150 millon per lot with a possible few extra lots to make up a shortfall or a dividend to issue any surplus would help to demonstrate and protect market value. Originally by: Scetrov I would be disappointed in a auction style share release, as this prevents people like myself who would like to invest but, however would not be happy liquidating assets knowing that I would have to potentialy liquidate more than I would require to purchace the shares (and equaly not have enough liquid ISK to purchace shares). The problem is an auction is the only real way to properly judge the current market value. Perhaps an idea would be a two week period in which to collect your shares after winning an auction, this would give winners sufficent time to liquidate assets or borrow money. With that said, Providence shows that a normal public offering will sell out very fast. If you're looking to liquidate assets to buy shares you probably won't have time. Lyrus Associates is recruiting
Zzyxx	Posted - 2006.03.20 23:57:00 - [56] My shares will prolley benefit from a new outpost in the same corp. I vote yes! /Z --------------------------- The silverpilot in a Muninn
Openheimer	Posted - 2006.03.21 01:11:00 - [57] ISS seem a pretty professional bunch of folks. Wher can I buy shares ?
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.21 15:55:00 - [58] The IAC have just built a refinery outpost 5 jumps from Marginis, which adds even more weight to the need of a Factory outpost in Catch.
Butter Dog	Posted - 2006.03.21 17:07:00 - [59] I'm pleased the deployment went successfully for the IAC - congratulations on your new outpost. No more hauling mods to Litom for refining then \o/ ------------------ The ISS Navy is recruiting. See this thread for further details. www.eve-iss.com
Ashis	Posted - 2006.03.21 18:19:00 - [60] Originally by: Serenity Steele The IAC have just built a refinery outpost 5 jumps from Marginis, which adds even more weight to the need of a Factory outpost in Catch. But that's not what we are voting on - right Serenity? We are voting on the method by which the Outpost is funded. There seems to be a lot of confusion on this. __________
Vishnej	Posted - 2006.03.21 20:06:00 - [61] Current Market Price That's all I have to say. Auction a limited number. Contribute to the Eve Wiki
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.21 22:37:00 - [62] Originally by: Ashis Originally by: Serenity Steele The IAC have just built a refinery outpost 5 jumps from Marginis, which adds even more weight to the need of a Factory outpost in Catch. But that's not what we are voting on - right Serenity? We are voting on the method by which the Outpost is funded. There seems to be a lot of confusion on this. Yes this is indeed true. On the issue of current market price, we broker an aweful lot of share transactions, and prices range 15-20m. The auctions on eve-online forums are not indicative of the most traded prices and volumes.
Kiyoshi Aphelion	Posted - 2006.03.22 01:25:00 - [63] Serenity I eve mailed you but never received a response. I was just wondering if the vote should succeed where could a potential ISS investor purchase the shares from? Flame me Baby.
static zero	Posted - 2006.03.22 03:15:00 - [64] I voted yes, because I suddenly realized this is a game, I want to see access to 0.0 expanded, and I believe my shares will not be diluted too terribly much. I wonder if I can add Providence shares to my IRA.. -static zero
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.22 16:22:00 - [65] Edited by: Serenity Steele on 22/03/2006 16:22:44 Originally by: Kiyoshi Aphelion Serenity I eve mailed you but never received a response. I was just wondering if the vote should succeed where could a potential ISS investor purchase the shares from? Should the vote succeed, the method of buying will be announced on www.eve-iss.com news page and to existing shareholders via dummy corporate vote. This is to stop attempts at 'pre-buying' shares. :) sigh If only we had a real stock market .. hint hint CCP
Fraps	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:37:00 - [66] if the vote goes through will there be a min. purchase order? or can we buy in any amounts?
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.03.23 08:46:00 - [67] I've not voted yet, because I'm still thinkin' :). As far as I'm concerned: Factory outpost: Yes. Extension of Marganis corp: Yes. Share issue remains the thing I'm stumbling on. On one hand, I'd like the opportunity to invest more. On the other, I think a larger spread of investors is a positive thing, which will benefit the project (and therefore the share holders) more in the longer term. The other is issuing value - I'm less worried there, because I think in the mid-long term this extension will improve my dividend. I've been to Marganis, and the factories run flat out. Minerals you can source, especially if there's a refinery outpost in the area, but factory time is the limiting factor. -- We are recruiting We sell carriers.
Kahn Moquil	Posted - 2006.03.23 11:14:00 - [68] ISS could always create a separate holding corp, issue 3600 shares, sell them off at 10 mil a piece. Lots of possible new investors, no risk for current Marginis share holders. To eliminate the risk of both outposts competing with eachother, you could then add up the profits from both outposts at the end of each month, and spread them evenly across shareholders in both corps. You could even consider issuing 3600 new shares and selling them at 20 mil each, and use the extra funds to set up a seperate outpost somewhere. Profits from that could for instance be used for the defense of other outposts. Anyway, not trying to be premature on the outcome of the vote, just a thought I had I figured I'd share with you.
W Floyd	Posted - 2006.03.23 17:02:00 - [69] Originally by: Aphroditi Hi. I'm involved in real stock market. So I would like to help you a bit with few ideas who can be used in the game. a) The whole approach is wrong. Serenity first had to see (ask the shareholders since we do not have a valid stock market), what their shares value is. Without question they worth more than 15m. Then when she have that share value, need to create (new shares) = (Outpost project cost) / (share value accepted by the share holders). Those new shares then need to go out to the market and people (or the share holders) will buy them. The actual value of the shares is the same for the new and the old share holders and none will have a reason not to be happy. b) By voting no right now, the only people who lose are the existing share holders. Why? because the 2nd outpost will start making profit against their own interest. And ofc they will be 2 competitive outposts on the same area. If ISS do not operate both the outposts as equal (with competition between them) and try to protect Marginis, the new company share holders will feel (and MUST be) unsafe about their investment. c) By voting yes you don't lose but since the shares value atm is higher than 15m (around 25m) then you lose 10m per share and have to wait few months again to be back on track. I believe the best for the shareholders (i'm not and I want to invest) is the a) option. None lose. ISS will have the funds to create the outpost. Shareholders will be happy for their new price of their shares and ofc the profit growth. Thank you Best suggestion so far? In any case, interresting post ^^.
Gaylord Demian	Posted - 2006.03.23 21:55:00 - [70] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=313437 cumon SS, pay the man.
Riga Mortis	Posted - 2006.03.26 13:12:00 - [71] Any news on the vote yet???
Ehrine Ashbark	Posted - 2006.03.26 13:39:00 - [72] Originally by: Kahn Moquil ISS could always create a separate holding corp, issue 3600 shares, sell them off at 10 mil a piece. Lots of possible new investors, no risk for current Marginis share holders. To eliminate the risk of both outposts competing with eachother, you could then add up the profits from both outposts at the end of each month, and spread them evenly across shareholders in both corps. You could even consider issuing 3600 new shares and selling them at 20 mil each, and use the extra funds to set up a seperate outpost somewhere. Profits from that could for instance be used for the defense of other outposts. Anyway, not trying to be premature on the outcome of the vote, just a thought I had I figured I'd share with you. Issueing 3600 more at 10 from a new corp and then profit sharing would be no different from issuing 3600 more from ISSM at 10 mill as they'll effectively be exactly the same. Said plan would also damage ISSM share value even more then selling a less at 15 mill might.
Elenin	Posted - 2006.03.26 13:59:00 - [73] Originally by: Butter Dog Edited by: Butter Dog on 20/03/2006 18:04:23 edit: I've just run some figures on our ship loss tracking system (posting losses is compulsory, kils are optional) - since March 1 we have destroyed approx 3 times more ISK than we have lost. I think these figures alone should answer your question with regard to the impact pirates have on us. Considering we did about 4.5Billion worth of damage to you for hardly any losses in 2 weeks thats quite impressive that you've killed that much ^^ However that was virtually all empire, so while it may have hurt iss a bit i'd be suprised if it had any noticable affect on the outpost's revenue, if anything it may have boosted it by pushing more of you out of empire into 0.0 yes iss is a yummy target full of goodies in empire, but that doesn't affect the outposts
Rawne Karrde	Posted - 2006.03.26 14:44:00 - [74] Having followed this with much interest, and again this is just my opinion, I would say that it would be paramount to ISS marginis shareholders that this outpost be included in the same corporation. From my perspective as a producer, if were to use the factory slots at the proposed amarr outpost, why should i risk my product being destroyed in transit from the production line to the market at ISS marginis I in KDF? Sure there is no market button in the station but that does not stop one from putting things up on the market currently. As long as that situation exists, I believe other producers will simply place their product up for sale at the factory outpost. This shift in revene from KDF to the proposed outpost will only hurt current marginis shares dividend. Though I have to admitt I don't have all the financial data on ISS marginis's balance sheet. The broker fee's and taxes maybe a very low % of Marginis's current revenue; the office rental fee's maybe the bigger source I don't know. But from where I'm sitting thats how i see it. Again this is just my opinion. I hold no shares in ISS projects, nor am I a member of ISS. However I do hope to be able to acquire shares in the factory outpost however it is to be built.
Kahn Moquil	Posted - 2006.03.26 15:26:00 - [75] Originally by: Ehrine Ashbark Issueing 3600 more at 10 from a new corp and then profit sharing would be no different from issuing 3600 more from ISSM at 10 mill as they'll effectively be exactly the same. Said plan would also damage ISSM share value even more then selling a less at 15 mill might. Except you would put the risk of deployment on the new investers, and not have current Marginis shareholders run the risk of getting their investment's worth halved.
Riga Mortis	Posted - 2006.03.26 15:47:00 - [76] Personnally I would like a brand new issue of shares for the 2nd outpost - this means the original share holders won't be at risk of losing isk if something happens during the deploy phase. Once built and running, then the two Outposts and shares should be brought together and all profits shares equally between both outposts. Though of course this would be best done once the 2nd outpost is making the same monies or more than the original one - thus not taking anything away from the original share holders... Any news on the vote?
Stins	Posted - 2006.03.26 16:04:00 - [77] Originally by: Riga Mortis Any news on the vote? The vote will end tonight at around 23.00 eve time. Until then, even the ISS management has no clue on how many people voted yes or no.
Logan Williams	Posted - 2006.03.26 19:26:00 - [78] Honestly, the best thing that ISS could do is to offer a buyback of all outstanding shares. Once the shares are gone, offer 7200 shares at 10 mil like they did before (except the amoung of shares). The old margins holders get first dibs on the new shares. The remaining shares are then sold, like before, for 10 million each on the open market. This is the best "Fair and equitable way" I can think of to distribute the shares. Once all shares are sold, the profits of both outposts can be merged into one dividend.
Raid	Posted - 2006.03.26 20:31:00 - [79] Seems ISS have already deployed another outpost.. this time in tenerifis.. Do tell, is this another publicly owned outpost?
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.26 20:32:00 - [80] Originally by: Fraps if the vote goes through will there be a min. purchase order? or can we buy in any amounts? Yes there will be a minimum buy amount, as per all share sales. The minimum would be lifted if there was an automatic in-game mechanism for selling shares aka Stock Market.
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.26 20:34:00 - [81] Originally by: Logan Williams Honestly, the best thing that ISS could do is to offer a buyback of all outstanding shares. Once the shares are gone, offer 7200 shares at 10 mil like they did before (except the amoung of shares). The old margins holders get first dibs on the new shares. The remaining shares are then sold, like before, for 10 million each on the open market. This is the best "Fair and equitable way" I can think of to distribute the shares. Once all shares are sold, the profits of both outposts can be merged into one dividend. Unfortunately, the labour required to achieve this is impractical and there is no in-game mechanism to tell us who the shareholders are. Would be an interesting idea otherwise :)
Velios	Posted - 2006.03.26 22:09:00 - [82] Originally by: Raid Seems ISS have already deployed another outpost.. this time in tenerifis.. Do tell, is this another publicly owned outpost? This is not a publicly owned outpost. "LV Calico" as it will be called belongs to Lotka Volterra and falls within our Tenerifis borders. Lotka Volterra contracted ISS to handle the deployment of the outpost while we persue other goals. M.Corp BPC Packages
Raid	Posted - 2006.03.26 23:04:00 - [83] Originally by: Velios Originally by: Raid Seems ISS have already deployed another outpost.. this time in tenerifis.. Do tell, is this another publicly owned outpost? This is not a publicly owned outpost. "LV Calico" as it will be called belongs to Lotka Volterra and falls within our Tenerifis borders. Lotka Volterra contracted ISS to handle the deployment of the outpost while we persue other goals. So you guys will take over ownership of the outpost im assuming.
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.26 23:17:00 - [84] The vote on Extending the ISS Marginis Outpost corporation is now closed. However, the share and CEO views are both showing 0% response rate. As it is evidence from this thread that players voted, we will wait for down-time Monday 12:00 to finish and re-check. In the event that the vote remains at 0.0 after down-time, we will petition if the vote information can be recovered. In the event the petition fails we will use the a number of shareholder polls to address the idea raised in this thread before casting another share-issue vote.
Xanta	Posted - 2006.03.26 23:19:00 - [85] Originally by: Serenity Steele The vote on Extending the ISS Marginis Outpost corporation is now closed. However, the share and CEO views are both showing 0% response rate. As it is evidence from this thread that players voted, we will wait for down-time Monday 12:00 to finish and re-check. In the event that the vote remains at 0.0 after down-time, we will petition if the vote information can be recovered. In the event the petition fails we will use the a number of shareholder polls to address the idea raised in this thread before casting another share-issue vote. ;s
Stins	Posted - 2006.03.26 23:33:00 - [86] Edited by: Stins on 26/03/2006 23:34:22 Numbers on the outcome now show correct, at least in my wallet
Xanta	Posted - 2006.03.26 23:43:00 - [87] Originally by: Stins Edited by: Stins on 26/03/2006 23:34:22 Numbers on the outcome now show correct, at least in my wallet sooo what is it ;o oh and is just me or did this thread lose its title :o
Stins	Posted - 2006.03.26 23:51:00 - [88] Edited by: Stins on 26/03/2006 23:52:13 according to my wallet, an impressive 91,3% voted to create new shares for the marginis outpost corp.
Rusom Rokath	Posted - 2006.03.27 00:14:00 - [89] Originally by: Stins Edited by: Stins on 26/03/2006 23:52:13 according to my wallet, an impressive 91,3% voted to create new shares for the marginis outpost corp. My wallet confirms that. Good luck with setting up the new outpost.
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.27 01:09:00 - [90] Edited by: Serenity Steele on 27/03/2006 01:16:16 Edit: Fixed typo. The vote put forth by the Marginis management team for issuing more shares to finance an expansion of the Marginis outpost with a factory outpost has been approved by the shareholders with a resounding 91.3% Yes Vote The shares will be sold beginning 29th March 20:00 eve-time and the payment method announced at that time on both the ISS Web site and directly to shareholders. Please note that any isk transferred to the ISS before the official start time, will be returned to the owners, and the owners will be barred from investing in this project expansion.
Scetrov	Posted - 2006.03.27 06:04:00 - [91] Originally by: Serenity Steele ISS Web site Missing a "//" in the URL there SS, fixed in quote.
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.27 10:36:00 - [92] Thanks. Fixed in OP as well :)
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.03.27 15:05:00 - [93] Originally by: Serenity Steele The shares will be sold beginning 29th March 20:00 eve-time and the payment method announced at that time on both the ISS Web site and directly to shareholders. Please note that any isk transferred to the ISS before the official start time, will be returned to the owners, and the owners will be barred from investing in this project expansion. Anyone care to lay a wager how many transfers will happen in the first 60 seconds? -- We are recruiting We sell carriers.
Cherokee Fabry	Posted - 2006.03.27 15:41:00 - [94] May I suggest to run a "Dutch Auction" on the new shares ? Something like "220 batch of 10 shares each, starting at 150 mio. isk each ..." The surplus of the isk collected (not needed to build the new Outpost) will be put in the corp wallet and re-distributed as a "bonus dividend". In this way : a) the ppl that will buy the shares will have in fact a "postponed discount" b) the actual shareholders of ISS Marginis shares that do not want/are not able to buy more shares will get a small isk bonus as a "cookie" I reckon it could be a mess to manage a "Dutch Auction" of such size but it might be worth .... P.S. : yes, I am a shareholder
Doltish	Posted - 2006.03.29 19:51:00 - [95] Any word on this? I am a shareholder and I've received no information on how to invest, and the IPO is scheduled to begin in 10 minutes. What gives?
Doltish	Posted - 2006.03.29 19:53:00 - [96] Ah, suppose that makes sense.
Riga Mortis	Posted - 2006.03.29 19:53:00 - [97] They said everything will be posted at 20:00 game time. Stop anyone buying ahead of time...
Riga Mortis	Posted - 2006.03.29 19:55:00 - [98] 100th post of topic - I hope. I am sitting in game waiting - lol
Riga Mortis	Posted - 2006.03.29 20:00:00 - [99] Edited by: Riga Mortis on 29/03/2006 20:00:35 http://www.eve-iss.com/marginis/vote.asp Instructions there now! Send after 20:00!!!
Scetrov	Posted - 2006.03.29 20:05:00 - [100] Originally by: Riga Mortis I am sitting in game waiting - lol lol, same we will see if they all sold out in 3 minutes or not :s
Serenity Steele	Posted - 2006.03.29 23:04:00 - [101] 1600 Shares sold in first 3 hours. 700 shares remain. See Web Site for share status ticker.
Emno	Posted - 2006.03.29 23:24:00 - [102] thread title has wondered off again
Raid	Posted - 2006.03.30 00:48:00 - [103] Originally by: Serenity Steele 1600 Shares sold in first 3 hours. 700 shares remain. See Web Site for share status ticker. ill take 0 please bump Originally by: Bared Bel'Medar Its a rare dialect called "dou'chay'ba'gh"... frequently used by members of this forum community. I was under the assumption you spoke it

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