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Exhumer V, is it worth training?

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Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.14 23:53:00 - [1] - Quote Exhumer V skill costs almost 20 Days to train with +4 imps, that is about 2/3 of one Plex. One plex costs 600 000 000 isk, so 2/3 is 400 000 000 isk. Is it worth training this for a 3% increase in mining yield on hulk? Lets find out. I'm now going to calculate how much veldspar you would have to mine in order for that 3% bonus to make 400 000 000 isk on its own. 3% is compared to 100% what 1 is compared to 33 (100 divided by 33 is 3), so if you mine 33 cubic meters ore with exhumers IV you mine 1 extra in that time with exhumer V. So with exhumer V you mine 34 000 m3 with Hulk and you know the last 1000 m3 is what you got from training exhumer V. This means you have to mine 34x 400 000 000 isk worth of ore, to earn back that exhumer V skill. This is about 100 000 000 m3 veldspar. If you have someone to haul for your Hulk, and max skill Orca (39.86 m3 per second as far as I can tell with imps), then its 29 days of none-stop mining in Hulk. 700 hours of constant mining, if we add the effects of half-cycles (the last cycle that depletes an asteroid is on average about half a turret yield), and downtime, and bio breaks, we're talking at least a thousand hours of none-stop mining. I chose veldspar as an example because it is an ore you are likely to be able to mine none-stop since its everywhere. So we can conclude that if you mine enough to earn back that exhumer V training, then you contribute way too much to the economy of Eve I think its time to revisit the mining system a bit. Or what do you think? Anyone want to defend the current exhumer skill bonuses?
Garak n00biachi Capital Destruction AL3XAND3R. 104	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:08:00 - [2] - Quote Stop turning this game into a god damn spreadsheet...how hard is it to just play\enjoy the game. If there are skills that benefit you more and take less than that lvl 5 do those first, in any other case just run the damn skill for a month and play the game.
nahjustwarpin SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS 109	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:12:00 - [3] - Quote cry topic about "why my 1 month skill only gives 3% bonus". there are more skills like that, but people just skill them to unlock stuff and not to get worthless bonus.
Ludaman The Bad Boy's The Bad Boy's II 0	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:13:00 - [4] - Quote If mining is only part of what you do I would say no not worth it. There are other skill to train but, if that is all you do then you may as well max your yield. I would not look at skill training time costing you isk. Personally I think of skills as isk making multipliers.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:19:00 - [5] - Quote To make it clear, I do not complain about this feature as I do not have exhumer V, it is an observation that I hope CCP will use to determine if this is as intended or if it is an unintended consequence of their skill bonus setup.
Iyokus Patrouette End-of-Line 94	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:42:00 - [6] - Quote I don't know, using a PLEX as some sort of gauge to skill bonuses on ships doesn't sit well. . you're pretty much saying It costs me half a billion to get an extra 5% damage on my cruiser. . that's X amount of ships i will have to destroy and get the loot from to make it worth training. Which sounds pretty stupid. If you do nothing but mine for a living, than yes it is worth training to 5. if not, than no it possibly isn't. regardless, I would be questioning the actually usefulness of a hulk compared to the other mining barges since the changes. It's a different argument, but i would question whether the hulk itself is worth using anymore. large ore yield, low cargo hold. lots of micro managing to keep dumping the ore before the hold fills up providing you have haulers to collect containers you jettison. . . But i don't actually mine anymore so my thoughts are purely off thought and not the actual use of the ship. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
Gregor Parud 108	Posted - 2014.01.15 01:59:00 - [7] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: To make it clear, I do not complain about this feature as I do not have exhumer V, it is an observation that I hope CCP will use to determine if this is as intended or if it is an unintended consequence of their skill bonus setup. No, you ARE complaining. LVL 5 skills are a choice (unless required as a prerequisite), and generally ppl go for that choice when they trained up all the other related skills and at some point it starts to make sense to go for the lvl 5s. CCP knows, and has known for the last 10 years, EXACTLY how this works and why this works, stop trying to hide your whining in marketing babble.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 02:16:00 - [8] - Quote Gregor, I'm not complaining. I have no opinion on whether it is a good or bad fact, I just think it is a fact. The fact is that it takes a thousand hours of mining to get a profit on exhumer V. Is it a complaint if I were to point out that gravity on Earth accelerates objects at 9.8 meters per second per second? Would you think it implies that I think it should be more or less?
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 599	Posted - 2014.01.15 03:49:00 - [9] - Quote It takes about 20 days if you're neutral mapped. For this time you get the 3 percent bonus to yield. I'll agree that compared to other Spaceship command skills you get quite a bit less. However CCP has to be careful about giving boosts to the overall mining yield since that could end up bad for the economy. One solution to this problem would be to reduce the base yield of Exhumers then make it where at level 5 it's close to what it is now at level 5. This way it would make the training well worth it and give people a reason to train the skill all the way to 5. The downside of this would be dozens of post crying about it's not fair for them to train a skill to 5. One other skill that has pretty poor returns at 5 is the T2 weapon specs. It takes 20 days for medium and 32 days for large. This is for a 2 percent DPS boost! This being said I have the skill trained up to 5 for small, med and large on the main weapon type my pilots use. 2 percent for a month sounds horrible but it's worth it to me.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 1995	Posted - 2014.01.15 04:00:00 - [10] - Quote Bah. If we're going to be throwing math around -- and it may and may not be appropriate to the problem here -- let's at least do it right. You do not gain 3% yield from Exhumers 5. You gain (1.15-1.12)/1.12 = 2.69% yield. Likewise, you do not gain 2% from turret spec 5, you gain (1.1-1.08)/1.08 = 1.85%. In either case, whether that extra bit is worthwhile is a very personal choice. If you really want to mine as much as possible or eke out as much damage as possible and there are no other avenues and there's nothing else on the account that would help any of the characters -- for goodness sake, do it. Accounting based on plex alone is silly though; if you don't pay for the account then you won't be mining anything.

Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 329	Posted - 2014.01.15 04:02:00 - [11] - Quote IIshira wrote: The downside of this would be dozens of post crying about it's not fair for them to train a skill to 5. I fail to see how this is a downside.
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 599	Posted - 2014.01.15 04:06:00 - [12] - Quote Antillie Sa'Kan wrote: IIshira wrote: The downside of this would be dozens of post crying about it's not fair for them to train a skill to 5. I fail to see how this is a downside. I just meant you can't make everyone happy. To make the skill worth training you would end up making people that didn't have it trained upset.
Paranoid Loyd 295	Posted - 2014.01.15 05:10:00 - [13] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: To make it clear, I do not complain about this feature as I do not have exhumer V, it is an observation that I hope CCP will use to determine if this is as intended or if it is an unintended consequence of their skill bonus setup. Why would you point it out like you are the first person in ten years to notice this and your shiptoast is going to make CCP realize how stupid they have been all this time? At the same time you say you are not complaining or have an opinion either way Your view is vary narrow, there are diminishing returns for every skill. Comparing anything to PLEX is the path to boredom and burnout. I really don't understand why people think they need to play this game for free. It costs less than a dollar a day to play. If you can't spare a dollar for the entertainment this game provides, you probably shouldn't be playing video games. The game is about choice, if you don't think it is worth it, it is pretty simple, don't train it. Loyd's Loot: Items for sale in Dodixie
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 05:27:00 - [14] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Read the last line of your OP and tell me how that is not complaining. You obviously took a side of the argument. The purpose of this thread was only to point out a piece of mathematics I did today. I should never have put that statement in OP because its another discussion. (the other discussion is this: I can't mine unless I do something else to entertain myself (I study and exercise while mining). Maybe the miners should have turrets slots for guns and a proper tank and have to mine in security missions or something, then the yield could be a lot higher (and Exhumer V worth it) because the NPC resistance balances it out (you can't fit 8 mining mods in the low slots without getting blown up unless you have logi and other support). Then mining would be mildly entertaining. Maybe the Exhumer skill could have other bonuses per level also that make it worth it, like better tank and drone HP) But enough off topic. I ask, do anyone have any mathematical or otherwise arguments to show that it is more or less worth it to train Exhumer V than what I put in OP? PS: "The game is about choice, if you don't think it is worth it, it is pretty simple, don't train it." - Yes, but I would argue that a stupid choice is not a real choice, it is just a pretend choice. Like if I were to offer you this: 1 Abaddon for 250 000 000 isk or 1 Armageddon AND 1 Abaddon for 250 000 000 isk. No one in their right mind would choose the first choice, so it is not a real choice you can make, it just has the appearance of being 2 choices.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 1995	Posted - 2014.01.15 06:02:00 - [15] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: But enough off topic. I ask, do anyone have any mathematical or otherwise arguments to show that it is more or less worth it to train Exhumer V than what I put in OP? Yes. I already made it, but I'll be more explicit. Having an active account allows multiple things: training of one character, use of one character at a time in game, and access to three characters. That one PLEX gives you all of those things. Now, let's assume that you use your account primarily for mining. If you have alts on the account, they are already where you want them for whatever they do whether that's manufacturing or market games or cyno or whatever. Your miner is nearly maxed out and you want more yield. In order to get that, you have to train Exhumers 5. Remember, you're already paying for the account; you need to to access the game. Why, under such circumstances, would you not train it? You get more yield and the cost is actually zero. Which is all to say, training is actually an opportunity cost mechanic, not a direct cost. If you treat it as a direct cost, which you did, your math makes sense. But the real question is not whether training it has a return, it's whether anything else has a better return. If the answer is no, you train the skill.
Paranoid Loyd 296	Posted - 2014.01.15 08:48:00 - [16] - Quote I will not reply to your last post as the example you countered with was so bad and totally irrelevant it made me puke in my mouth. Instead I will humor you and let you explain to us what the "math" tells you would be the necessary increase to the level 5 skill to make it "worth training" Then please explain to us how every miner that already has exhumer V and all the additional miners that will soon have level V would not crash the mineral market with their new and improved yield? How as an individual do you feel that work out for you compared to the larger groups? Loyd's Loot: Items for sale in Dodixie
Sid Crash 82	Posted - 2014.01.15 09:40:00 - [17] - Quote How is this so difficult to comprehend? - no one is forcing you to train it to lvl 5 - people who trained all the other relevant skills and choose not to focus on other skill areas will get that to 5 in a "might as well" kind of way - nothing is forced to be "economically worthwhile", that's just your perception - there's tons of skills that aren't necessary as such, other than "more is better" - stop trying so hard using lots of words to hide the fact that you ARE complaining
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:03:00 - [18] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: I will not reply to your last post as the example you countered with was so bad and totally irrelevant it made me puke in my mouth. Instead I will humor you and let you explain to us what the "math" tells you would be the necessary increase to the level 5 skill to make it "worth training" Then please explain to us how every miner that already has exhumer V and all the additional miners that will soon have level V would not crash the mineral market with their new and improved yield? How as an individual do you feel that work out for you compared to the larger groups? See price drop of aluminium. It was once so valuable that the richest kings ate from aluminium plates instead of gold plates, and today we can get one metric ton of aluminium for less than a months salary. Yet today we earn much more money from extraction and use of aluminium than we did when aluminium was much more valuable. Hence, improving the means of gathering resources is not a bad thing. If I were to take your bait I would devise a system in which the resource yields and construction efficiency increase slightly every update. So that miners would have to continue buying new mining modules in order to have the maximum yield that is possible. And every launch there would be more stuff, larger ships, larger anchorable objects, bigger things that requires more resources, to help increase demand for ore and manufacturing of items. If we increase yield by 1% and the demand stays exactly the same then the price would drop by about 1% (Its not exactly 1%, its about 1.001%). But you would still make the same amount of isk per hour you mine, but you would have to mine 1% less to make yourself a battleship, and would think its 1% less of a big deal if you lose your battleship, so you would fly a percentage more hours both PVE and PVP (assuming you're the average EVE player that does everything on average the same amount as the average EVE player). And you would lose more battleships, and you would kill more battleships. Not to mention the modules for them and you would have more salvage to make more rigs for them etc. I always think "here comes a good one" when the six characters "math" (including quotation marks) is used. Sid Crash, am not complaining, I find this "feature" of the Exhumer V skill very amusing. It is like finding an easter egg left for us by CCP, "here's this strange economic option, watch people pay to choose it" I would support making more mathematically profitless skills if CCP wants to make sure people always have something to spend their subscription-time on, but I would still point out how profitless they are. People are free to play the lottery as a bad investment, but then they do it because they want to sit there in anticipation of possibly winning, they can't argue that they do it for the good odds and monetary return on investment. And you can not argue that people train Exhumer V in order to make a profit on training it, they do it because they want to feel like they get the maximum return from every hour they mine. I know I have invested in T2 lasers ONLY because I want to know I kill the NPCs 8% faster than I would with T1 guns (I only have to IV on large lasers). With T1 guns I was haunted by the feeling that "3 battleships left in the last room, if I had T2 guns I would have turned in the mission already", which diminished the entertainment value of the game for me. But I have probably yet to make a profit on that large pulse specialization IV skill. Stop trying so hard to argue that I am complaining just because you believe (wrongly) that I am complaining. Its turning into a religion. If you can't take my word for it when I say I am not complaining, then I will insist you are doing something you claim you are not to balance things out. But then mods will probably stop our highly advanced and civilized discussion.
Sid Crash 83	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:14:00 - [19] - Quote Which part of "I trained all the skills that affect my dps/yield/speed to level 4, I'm done with the other skills, might as well get these lvl 5s out of the way" don't you get. - why train navigation to 5, not like you NEED - why train Surgical strike to lvl 5, not like you NEED it - why train Combat Drones to lvl 5, not like you NEED it etc etc ad nauseam.
Anize Oramara S T R A T C O M Ragnarok. 114	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:41:00 - [20] - Quote the op's view is extremely narrow; isolating variables in a large equation, evaluating them and judging them without taking into account anything that impacts them or what it will impact. making wild conjectures and assumptions based on the flimsiest pseudo logic and quack math. op, it is extremely simple, why train exumer v on a mining toon? pay attention now because you seem to miss this every time: BECAUSE THERES NOTHING ELSE TO TRAIN TO INCREASE YIELD. we done now?

Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 710	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:46:00 - [21] - Quote lmao, never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes haha. Hint: you're wrong, you are turning in PLEX for your game time, skills are free :>
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 12:24:00 - [22] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: the op's view is extremely narrow; isolating variables in a large equation, evaluating them and judging them without taking into account anything that impacts them or what it will impact. making wild conjectures and assumptions based on the flimsiest pseudo logic and quack math. op, it is extremely simple, why train exumer v on a mining toon? pay attention now because you seem to miss this every time: BECAUSE THERES NOTHING ELSE TO TRAIN TO INCREASE YIELD. we done now? If you have a mining alt on the same account as your main character then why would you pay for 1 extra plex of dual character training just to get 3% more yield which takes 700 hours of your time to earn back? 700 hours without Exhumer V would pay for 33 months gametime that you can spend being entertained by Eve. 700 hours with Exhumer V would pay for 34 months gametime that you can spend being entertained by Eve. I am not saying people should not train Exhumer V, I am sure there are people who mine enough to make a profit on it in just a couple years on all their toons and then multi-box a dozen hulks and plex all their accounts and buy a Titan with the profits. But I am also sure that you would have to mine for 700 hours with a hulk with orca boosts to make up the investment, so you may as well invest it in a mining barge toon instead. Though once you have two accounts you are no longer a causal player and almost have to mine every month to plex your accounts, otherwise it will quickly become a very costly game over time. Robert, "never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes" - really? I wouldn't have guessed :P Everything in eve is measured in PLEX, ships, loot, battles, toons (and when training toons, skills are measured in plexes).
Anize Oramara S T R A T C O M Ragnarok. 115	Posted - 2014.01.15 13:12:00 - [23] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: the op's view is extremely narrow; isolating variables in a large equation, evaluating them and judging them without taking into account anything that impacts them or what it will impact. making wild conjectures and assumptions based on the flimsiest pseudo logic and quack math. op, it is extremely simple, why train exumer v on a mining toon? pay attention now because you seem to miss this every time: BECAUSE THERES NOTHING ELSE TO TRAIN TO INCREASE YIELD. we done now? If you have a mining alt on the same account as your main character then why would you pay for 1 extra plex of dual character training just to get 3% more yield which takes 700 hours of your time to earn back? 700 hours without Exhumer V would pay for 33 months gametime that you can spend being entertained by Eve. 700 hours with Exhumer V would pay for 34 months gametime that you can spend being entertained by Eve. I am not saying people should not train Exhumer V, I am sure there are people who mine enough to make a profit on it in just a couple years on all their toons and then multi-box a dozen hulks and plex all their accounts and buy a Titan with the profits. But I am also sure that you would have to mine for 700 hours with a hulk with orca boosts to make up the investment, so you may as well invest it in a mining barge toon instead. Though once you have two accounts you are no longer a causal player and almost have to mine every month to plex your accounts, otherwise it will quickly become a very costly game over time. Robert, "never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes" - really? I wouldn't have guessed :P Everything in eve is measured in PLEX, ships, loot, battles, toons (and when training toons, skills are measured in plexes). you ask is exumer v worth training. we say yes in x situation it is worth it. you swoop in and proudly slap you shlong in everones face saying 'hah no you are all wrong in y situation it is not!' are you mentally ********? in eve the answer is always 'it depends on the situation'. also measuring skills in plex is stupid. instead devide it by pie. everyone likes pie
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 13:38:00 - [24] - Quote "you swoop in and proudly slap you shlong in everones face saying 'hah no you are all wrong in y situation it is not!'" - No, that is not what I am doing. Is this where I put words in your mouth and put actions on your shoulders and then get the thread closed? "in eve the answer is always 'it depends on the situation'." While Exhumer V may be the optimum choice in some situation, for example if you want more ore to make stuff but can't be bothered to start another account, then exhumer V MAY BE the way to go. But that situation is only if you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support in your time in Eve. But if you are not going to mine 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support during your time in Eve then you may as well sell that plex you would have spent on Exhumer V and buy 400 000 000 isk worth of ore (I assume people buy plex and then use that to run their accounts, instead of paying to get account time, that can not be turned into isk). Because then you have that extra ore you would have gotten from investing in Exhumer V. Only you turned the plex directly into Ore instead of into training time. I have done this math precisely so people can judge when it is in their best interest to train Exhumer V, and when it is not in their best interest. I am not saying that it is never the right choice. I have time and time again said it is the right choice if you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support on that toon. To feed it with a teaspoon: This is when the situation is right to train Exhumer V: When you will mine way more than 19 800 000 000 isk worth of ore. This is when the situation is wrong to train Exhumer V: When you will not mine more than 19 800 000 000 isk worth of ore. other factors can influence this slightly.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 710	Posted - 2014.01.15 13:45:00 - [25] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Robert, "never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes" - really? I wouldn't have guessed :P Everything in eve is measured in PLEX, ships, loot, battles, toons (and when training toons, skills are measured in plexes). this is rtarded, obviously. So you never going to maximize your skills for profession you've chosen for eve? What else would you skill instead while you're mining rocks? Something completely unrelated? Gunnery? Market stuff? Nothing at all because its not "worth" the PLEX you would spend anyways? You would probably end up with a toon who can do many, many things but nothing properly.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:08:00 - [26] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Ronny Hugo wrote: Robert, "never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes" - really? I wouldn't have guessed :P Everything in eve is measured in PLEX, ships, loot, battles, toons (and when training toons, skills are measured in plexes). this is rtarded, obviously. So you never going to maximize your skills for profession you've chosen for eve? What else would you skill instead while you're mining rocks? Something completely unrelated? Gunnery? Market stuff? Nothing at all because its not "worth" the PLEX you would spend anyways? You would probably end up with a toon who can do many, many things but nothing properly. "properly"? If my ship does 97-98% of its maximum capability because I have L4 gun specialization instead of L5, so be it. It is cheaper for me to give 25M isk (including fit) destroyers to some new pilot that then follows me around in PVE and PVP. Over 90% even pay me back when they have made 25M by rolling with me in L4 missions.
Anize Oramara S T R A T C O M Ragnarok. 115	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:14:00 - [27] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: "you swoop in and proudly slap you shlong in everones face saying 'hah no you are all wrong in y situation it is not!'" - No, that is not what I am doing. Is this where I put words in your mouth and put actions on your shoulders and then get the thread closed? "in eve the answer is always 'it depends on the situation'." While Exhumer V may be the optimum choice in some situation, for example if you want more ore to make stuff but can't be bothered to start another account, then exhumer V MAY BE the way to go. But that situation is only if you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support in your time in Eve. But if you are not going to mine 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support during your time in Eve then you may as well sell that plex you would have spent on Exhumer V and buy 400 000 000 isk worth of ore (I assume people buy plex and then use that to run their accounts, instead of paying to get account time, that can not be turned into isk). Because then you have that extra ore you would have gotten from investing in Exhumer V. Only you turned the plex directly into Ore instead of into training time. I have done this math precisely so people can judge when it is in their best interest to train Exhumer V, and when it is not in their best interest. I am not saying that it is never the right choice. I have time and time again said it is the right choice if you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support on that toon. To feed it with a teaspoon: This is when the situation is right to train Exhumer V: When you will mine way more than 19 800 000 000 isk worth of ore. This is when the situation is wrong to train Exhumer V: When you will not mine more than 19 800 000 000 isk worth of ore. other factors can influence this slightly. mining semi afk for 6hours a day while you actually play eve on an actual accpunt making 10times as much isk an hour you will have your precious skill payed off using your quacky math in 4months. after that you are making a profit, as small as it may be now stop making a mountain out of a molehill for an excuse to swing your shlong in peoples face. it was funny at first, like a 3y old but its done now k? all this effort from you over this, good lord.
Kirkwood Ross Golden Profession 117	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:32:00 - [28] - Quote Do you plan on flying an exhumer in Eve for a large portion of your game time? If so, train to V. You didn't mention the extra effects from any mining implants or mining foreman links from that 3% increase.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 15:16:00 - [29] - Quote Kirkwood Ross wrote: You didn't mention the extra effects from any mining implants or mining foreman links from that 3% increase. I wait for someone with actual expertise of the mathematical formula that calculates mining yield to give us some insight into how that works. Until then the 700 hour estimate as given by my trip in EVEHQ seems accurate enough. I left the OP open to (hopefully) more accurate rebuttals as indicated by the last sentence, but I think the mathematicians are over in the market discussion forum. "Do you plan on flying an exhumer(...)" You are correct. As I have stated, if one plans to mine enough Exhumer V is well worth it, but "enough" is over 700 hours of effective Hulk mining. There's a time and place for exhumer V, but I think it is a very small niche.
Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 331	Posted - 2014.01.15 16:30:00 - [30] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: derp Please keep posting. This thread is the best thing I have read all day.

Frostys Virpio Lame Corp Name 964	Posted - 2014.01.15 17:26:00 - [31] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: There's a time and place for exhumer V, but I think it is a very small niche. Like pretty much every other V skills... Welcome to EVE skill system.
Cipher Jones The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars 1089	Posted - 2014.01.15 21:44:00 - [32] - Quote All calculations I have ever don in theory or in practice point to "The only thing worth mining in New Eden is Gas in C5 and C6 wormholes." Mining anything else should only be done because you enjoy the act of mining and not the income from it. **** anybody who tells you how to play a video game, math or not. Do what you want. Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
Mister Simms Society for Miner Education 9	Posted - 2014.01.15 22:35:00 - [33] - Quote Garak n00biachi wrote: Stop turning this game into a god damn spreadsheet...how hard is it to just play\enjoy the game. If there are skills that benefit you more and take less than that lvl 5 do those first, in any other case just run the damn skill for a month and play the game. The OP is certainly entitled to enjoy EVE the way he wants. "Spreadsheets is space" is an apt, and common description of EVE. If you don't like spreadsheets, or aren't smart enough to figure them out, then you can enjoy EVE your own way.
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 600	Posted - 2014.01.16 00:45:00 - [34] - Quote Mister Simms wrote: Garak n00biachi wrote: Stop turning this game into a god damn spreadsheet...how hard is it to just play\enjoy the game. If there are skills that benefit you more and take less than that lvl 5 do those first, in any other case just run the damn skill for a month and play the game. The OP is certainly entitled to enjoy EVE the way he wants. "Spreadsheets is space" is an apt, and common description of EVE. If you don't like spreadsheets, or aren't smart enough to figure them out, then you can enjoy EVE your own way. I think he just called you stupid In all seriousness I know lots of people that use spreadsheets.
Austin McLaren Addicts Anonymous 26	Posted - 2014.01.16 19:11:00 - [35] - Quote How about this.. You're mining away minding your own buisness and you notice it's 1 more cycle until you need to dock up and empty so you go pour a coffee. On returning to your keyboard you find your ship has been ganked!! You're mining away and you notice at the end of the cycle your cargo is full and time to dock, you wait, hit dock and go pour a coffee. Who had their skill to 5, who didn't lose 200m of assets?
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.16 21:17:00 - [36] - Quote Austin, if you could calculate the decrease in risk from being ganked that one would get with a good tank fit, with and without Exhumer V, I would applaud and bow to you.
Kat Bandeis Laboratoires Armageddon 1121 Ventures 15	Posted - 2014.01.16 21:31:00 - [37] - Quote Others have already said it, so I'll repeat it because I'm at work and have time to kill. 1) Level 5 skills (for the most part) are completed to open up something else on the skillplan. Cruiser 5 is a perfect example of a skill WELL WORTH taking to L5. Archaeology/Hacking 5, not so much (given the spread of bonuses you get in other ways these two really aren't worth the effort). 2) Unless you're one of those anal-retentive types that sits a stopwatch next to your monitor to guage your isk per second in L4 blitzed missions, it really isn't worth it. The bonus that L5 gives you (OP) is minimal, and if you're planning that tiny percentage difference into your success or failure in EveO, you are just plain doing it wrong. 3) Who gives a flying fig what others here think? You want to do it, do it. Period. And your comment about hoping CCP will see this thread and reconsider the whole L5 train time versus benefit is just plain stupid. Ponder your belly lint. It's more productive for you and wastes less time for the rest of us here that reply.
Kat Bandeis Laboratoires Armageddon 1121 Ventures 15	Posted - 2014.01.16 21:32:00 - [38] - Quote Austin McLaren wrote: How about this.. You're mining away minding your own buisness and you notice it's 1 more cycle until you need to dock up and empty so you go pour a coffee. On returning to your keyboard you find your ship has been ganked!! You're mining away and you notice at the end of the cycle your cargo is full and time to dock, you wait, hit dock and go pour a coffee. Who had their skill to 5, who didn't lose 200m of assets? Ironically, this. On a whole butt-load of levels.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 865	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:40:00 - [39] - Quote I wouldn't go so far as to say that Exhumer I is worth training. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
Mister Simms Society for Miner Education 11	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:43:00 - [40] - Quote Kat Bandeis wrote: Austin McLaren wrote: How about this.. You're mining away minding your own buisness and you notice it's 1 more cycle until you need to dock up and empty so you go pour a coffee. On returning to your keyboard you find your ship has been ganked!! You're mining away and you notice at the end of the cycle your cargo is full and time to dock, you wait, hit dock and go pour a coffee. Who had their skill to 5, who didn't lose 200m of assets? Ironically, this. On a whole butt-load of levels. I agree. This is great.

Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 34	Posted - 2014.01.16 22:56:00 - [41] - Quote All this "if you want to do it, then you can do it" is for another thread. Here its about whether you SHOULD want to do it or not based on whether it is worth it irrespective of your feelings. And from a mining yield bonus standpoint, you need over 700 hours mining with a Hulk before you SHOULD want to train Exhumer V, but if you are never going to mine that much, you SHOULD NOT want to train Exhumer V to get more ore. Austin McLaren however, added to this discussion by pointing out that lowering risk may make it worth it, because if we assume you are ganked and lose a 200M ship every 4000M ore you mine, with Exhumer IV, then exhumer V may make it so you mine 200M more ore before you are successfully ganked. So you get 4200M isk worth of ore per Hulk instead of 4000M, which means you essentially have more mining yield (we assume you make the Hulk yourself so your mining yield is X minus whatever you use to make the Hulk. X is the amount you mine before losing a Hulk. If you went from 4000M X to 4200M X then you would have increased your yield by 5%, in addition to the 3% yield of Exhumer V. But You'd need to use your own Hulk loss data or the average X that Hulk miners have in Eve to calculate the real X). Wanting to scratch ones mosquito-bite does not mean you should want to scratch it. Nor does it mean that you gain from scratching it. It may in fact hurt you scratch it (infections and whatnot). Translated into Exhumer V, it may have negative effects to you to train it if you do not mine enough to make a healthy return on investment. If you are one of those who follow their emotions like a crazy Vulcan then economic planning through mathematical models is obviously not for you. So why on earth are you here in this thread? (not aimed at anyone specific)
Sadario Meatshield Bastards The Bastards. 7	Posted - 2014.01.17 11:54:00 - [42] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Here its about whether you SHOULD want to do it In some cases, what else is there to train? Hypothetical scenario: I create a Hulk-alt on a new account to generate some income. I suck at generating income (see previous sentence), so I use my Mastercard to fuel my account with game-time. I complete every skill related to said alt, yet Exhumers 5 remains. I will not train a different skill, as it doesn't benefit me. Why shouldn't I train it? After completing all the skills, I will still continue swiping said Mastercard, without training skills, because they don't benefit me. Therefore PLEX = subscription-time, not skillqueue. Training Exhumers to 5 is in this case my only option, and it certainly benefits me. Just let it go, bro...
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 866	Posted - 2014.01.17 12:46:00 - [43] - Quote You're getting there. But here's a rundown of the points I think are most relevant to the decision: 1.) As was said before, how much more you actually mine (look at the margin by itself), and consider how much that SP costs (time/subscription cost/anything else relevant to you). 2.) As you mentioned, factor in losses not connected to skill training by subtracting from the main amount, while keeping the margin the same size. 3.) Consider how the value of your training time deprecates over time. As you train the skills you want, you start to train the skills you sort of want, and so on. At some point, Exhumers V will be worth training if you're already at Exhumers IV and still subscribed. You've just got to decide when that is. 4.) If mining is what you find fun or it is what gives you a feeling of accomplishment, then maybe training Exhumers V has value to you merely in completing it. Think back on what it was like for you to train Mining Barge V. Consider how much less you like mining now than when you started, look at how much you have left to accomplish as a miner, and admit to yourself that at some point down the road you will not be as interested in mining as you are now. What kind of backup training do you already have, and how soon are you likely to rely on it? Do you have tech II training in other ships? Do you need it? Maybe it will be fun to start your next style at tech I and work your way up, maybe you want to jump in at the top. 5.) Lastly, you've got to consider if training Exhumers at all is actually worth it. Consider the difference in income between an exhumer and a mining barge, and consider how much you lose in ganks either way. Consider the difference in tank and fittings, and also admit to yourself that a tanked barge/exhumer will never know about passing gankers who secretly looked at your tank and moved on. You may be able to maximize your output in spite of your tank and get more net profit; this is easier when the ship is cheaper. ========== I am aware of all of these complex mathematical relationships which can determine exactly which one is more important for me, but the differences are strong enough that I can estimate pretty easily. I have never flown an exhumer, and the first time I do, it will be because it is something I haven't done yet. I barely mine enough for profit, I certainly don't mine enough to profit off an exhumer. I also like to move around and mine in new areas. Rather than bring my barge with me, I get a new barge for a new area and leave the old one behind. I may use it again later. Also, I like to change up the barge type now and then. Sometimes it's a procurer, sometimes it's a retriever. It's generally not a covetor because the small mining yield bonus from that is lost in the time I put in to moving the ore more often, not to mention the energy I personally spend by watching my mining more keenly. Then again, covetor would be my barge of choice were I mining in a fleet with hauling support, and I were not AFK anyway. It may also be a good choice in New Order space, since you need to be present at your keyboard anyway. I don't know how their rules take to dumping ore in cans. I hope this helps you make your decision. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 34	Posted - 2014.01.17 12:56:00 - [44] - Quote Sadario wrote: Ronny Hugo wrote: Here its about whether you SHOULD want to do it In some cases, what else is there to train? Hypothetical scenario: I create a Hulk-alt on a new account to generate some income. I suck at generating income (see previous sentence), so I use my Mastercard to fuel my account with game-time. I complete every skill related to said alt, yet Exhumers 5 remains. I will not train a different skill, as it doesn't benefit me. Why shouldn't I train it? After completing all the skills, I will still continue swiping said Mastercard, without training skills, because they don't benefit me. Therefore PLEX = subscription-time, not skillqueue. Training Exhumers to 5 is in this case my only option, and it certainly benefits me. Just let it go, bro... Edit: Just wanted to add... In this scenario the system works like a charm. Don't whine for a nerf/change because in your niche the system doesn't work. This is an MMO, not a singleplayer-game. I'd pause skill training on my finished miner and make another alt miner on that account and then my game-time would train another exactly alike miner up while I made iskies from my Exhumer IV miner. When the alt is up to exhumer I put it on its own account and make iskies from it. Then I make another alt on original finished miner and let the new miner complete, then I make another alt on the second completed miner and change to training that. In lets say 6 months I train each miner so in 6 months I have 1, 12 months I have 2, 18 months I have 4, 24 months I have 8. If I just mine them all enough to buy 1 plex per account I make bank (if I mine enough with 1 miner to plex 1 miner, I can plex 8 accounts if I mine with 8 miners for the same amount of time). Lets say I mine all the miners 700M worth of ore per 30 days, plex is 600M. That is 100M profit per miner. Would I benefit from training them all to Exhumer V by the cost of almost an entire plex? No. And hey, if I decide that I don't want to mine all my miners this month, I just don't plex them that month. Or sell some when I get so many I can't mine with them all at once. It is more isk in making and selling them than to train Exhumer V if one does not mine each one more than 700 hours (700 hours with Hulk, way more with mackinaw). Eventually the market for miner toons dry up and you have to make other alts on your miner accounts, but then you can make Titan sitters and supercarrier sitters, which go for quite a bit, and other toons. Which also by my guesstimates make you more isk than training exhumer V (exhumer V only makes a profit if you mine more than 700 hours with all your miners). I'm not whining, I'm informing you and everyone reading this that if you are one of those that go your whole lives not mining 700 hours in a Hulk, then you are better off not training Exhumer V. EDIT: Respect to Reaver Glitterstim for actually making lots of points and adding to this discussion instead of missing the point like certain others.
Frostys Virpio Lame Corp Name 965	Posted - 2014.01.17 15:54:00 - [45] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Sadario wrote: Ronny Hugo wrote: Here its about whether you SHOULD want to do it In some cases, what else is there to train? Hypothetical scenario: I create a Hulk-alt on a new account to generate some income. I suck at generating income (see previous sentence), so I use my Mastercard to fuel my account with game-time. I complete every skill related to said alt, yet Exhumers 5 remains. I will not train a different skill, as it doesn't benefit me. Why shouldn't I train it? After completing all the skills, I will still continue swiping said Mastercard, without training skills, because they don't benefit me. Therefore PLEX = subscription-time, not skillqueue. Training Exhumers to 5 is in this case my only option, and it certainly benefits me. Just let it go, bro... Edit: Just wanted to add... In this scenario the system works like a charm. Don't whine for a nerf/change because in your niche the system doesn't work. This is an MMO, not a singleplayer-game. I'd pause skill training on my finished miner and make another alt miner on that account and then my game-time would train another exactly alike miner up while I made iskies from my Exhumer IV miner. When the alt is up to exhumer I put it on its own account and make iskies from it. Then I make another alt on original finished miner and let the new miner complete, then I make another alt on the second completed miner and change to training that. In lets say 6 months I train each miner so in 6 months I have 1, 12 months I have 2, 18 months I have 4, 24 months I have 8. If I just mine them all enough to buy 1 plex per account I make bank (if I mine enough with 1 miner to plex 1 miner, I can plex 8 accounts if I mine with 8 miners for the same amount of time). Lets say I mine all the miners 700M worth of ore per 30 days, plex is 600M. That is 100M profit per miner. Would I benefit from training them all to Exhumer V by the cost of almost an entire plex? No. And hey, if I decide that I don't want to mine all my miners this month, I just don't plex them that month. Or sell some when I get so many I can't mine with them all at once. It is more isk in making and selling them than to train Exhumer V if one does not mine each one more than 700 hours (700 hours with Hulk, way more with mackinaw). Eventually the market for miner toons dry up and you have to make other alts on your miner accounts, but then you can make Titan sitters and supercarrier sitters, which go for quite a bit, and other toons. Which also by my guesstimates make you more isk than training exhumer V (exhumer V only makes a profit if you mine more than 700 hours with all your miners). I'm not whining, I'm informing you and everyone reading this that if you are one of those that go your whole lives not mining 700 hours in a Hulk, then you are better off not training Exhumer V. EDIT: Respect to Reaver Glitterstim for actually making lots of points and adding to this discussion instead of missing the point like certain others. You do realise your miner has to stop miing if you do not dump a PLEX on it for it to still be allowed online to mine that 700 mill worth of ore right? It's not like you can stop paying the sub once it's completed and still have it in space to mine... Each account will be PLEXed so they can keep mining but you will also have SP getting added to every single active toon on those account so Exhumer V will be the only "usefull" skill you can get unless you have future plan for those miner alts. Once all your yield skill are maxed out, Exhumer V is the only thing you can train that has any value to what you do unless you ahve other plans. If you only plan on mining, the skill queu might as well be filled with it than anythign else giving you 0 benefit.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 868	Posted - 2014.01.17 16:39:00 - [46] - Quote Or he could be training Tactical Shield Manipulation 5 or Hull Upgrades 5 for better resists. Howabout Engineering 5 or Electronics 5 for stronger fitting? Maybe Shield Upgrades 5 to make shield extenders fit more easily? Or Mining Upgrades 5 to fit MLUs more easily? Howabout Refinery Operation 5 and Advanced Refinery Operation 5 to get more out of refining ore? Howabout level 4 ore processing skills to further boost refining as well as allow the use of tech II mining crystals? Howabout Scout Drone Operation 5 and Drone Interfacing 5 for better defense? Howabout Industrial 5 and Advanced Spaceship Command 5 for a freighter? All of these are skills that benefit a miner. Exhumers 5 is not the only thing to train. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 602	Posted - 2014.01.17 17:43:00 - [47] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Or he could be training Tactical Shield Manipulation 5 or Hull Upgrades 5 for better resists. Howabout Engineering 5 or Electronics 5 for stronger fitting? Maybe Shield Upgrades 5 to make shield extenders fit more easily? Or Mining Upgrades 5 to fit MLUs more easily? Howabout Refinery Operation 5 and Advanced Refinery Operation 5 to get more out of refining ore? Howabout level 4 ore processing skills to further boost refining as well as allow the use of tech II mining crystals? Howabout Scout Drone Operation 5 and Drone Interfacing 5 for better defense? Howabout Industrial 5 and Advanced Spaceship Command 5 for a freighter? All of these are skills that benefit a miner. Exhumers 5 is not the only thing to train. You have a good point. There's a lot of skills that will help fly ships better in Eve. This is the one thing I like about the game. If you could train all skills in a year or two I would've quit Eve a long time ago. I like the fact that I'm always improving my pilots. I'm not against using spreadsheets but comparing skill training time to PLEX does seem silly. Of course I play a more casual style than most focusing on having fun rather than maximum efficiency. My wallet balance reflects this If you look at the Exhumer skill bonus compared to other ship bonuses the 1% to 3% per level does seem a bit shortchanged to many 10% per level bonuses of other ships. Of course at this point I'm not sure if CCP could change it without upsetting a lot of Exhumer pilots that only have the skill at 4. You can't simply just change the bonus from 3% to 10% without lowering the base because that would cause market issues. BTW Tactical Shield Manipulation 5 doesn't really help and I've heard from some that it can actually have a negative effect. You need it at 4 so you can fit T2 modules but that's where most leave it at.
Anya Klibor Insanely Twisted D3vil's Childr3n 632	Posted - 2014.01.17 18:47:00 - [48] - Quote I trained Marauders 5. Twice.
Shoogie Serious Pixels 63	Posted - 2014.01.17 19:22:00 - [49] - Quote OP, you need to realize that you are bringing up very, very unusual cases. The vast majority of players do not use a PLEX for dual character training, nor are they training up pilots for the purpose of selling them. Those are the two cases where PLEX-> SPs. For everyone else, they are not paying for SPs. Everyone else is paying (whether by PLEX or credit card) to PLAY THE GAME. For us, we are paying to have access to the server and to do whatever we want to in the game. One of the side benefits of being a loyal CCP customer is that we get to allocate skillpoints to whatever skills we feel like. What do I think I will be doing in the future? That is what I will be putting my SPs towards. For the record, I have Exhumers IV, though I have not sat in one for about 3 years. However, I am not arrogant enough to tell people they are playing the game wrong if they train differently than me. Except for Tactical Shield Manipulation! That skill actually decreases your tank the higher level you have it trained. You are playing the game wrong if you train it to 5.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 870	Posted - 2014.01.17 19:43:00 - [50] - Quote Shoogie wrote: Except for Tactical Shield Manipulation! That skill actually decreases your tank the higher level you have it trained. You are playing the game wrong if you train it to 5. I heard a rumor that training it to 5 makes it stop giving the penalty. That way you get the prerequisites covered without the bad part. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!

Frostys Virpio Lame Corp Name 965	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:20:00 - [51] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: Or he could be training Tactical Shield Manipulation 5 or Hull Upgrades 5 for better resists. Howabout Engineering 5 or Electronics 5 for stronger fitting? Maybe Shield Upgrades 5 to make shield extenders fit more easily? Or Mining Upgrades 5 to fit MLUs more easily? Howabout Refinery Operation 5 and Advanced Refinery Operation 5 to get more out of refining ore? Howabout level 4 ore processing skills to further boost refining as well as allow the use of tech II mining crystals? Howabout Scout Drone Operation 5 and Drone Interfacing 5 for better defense? Howabout Industrial 5 and Advanced Spaceship Command 5 for a freighter? All of these are skills that benefit a miner. Exhumers 5 is not the only thing to train. And then what after that? Are we assuming he will quit mining in a few months? Refinery skill could all be done on a single one and same for the freighter stuff. He said he wants to go multi account anyway so at some point, it will be either Exhumer V or something 100% unrelated to mining and having a few alts, it will come fast unless he does stuff that makes no sense like trianing more than 1 refiner and maybe 2 hauler if he gets enough volume to move. Thats at most 3 of his account. Anything higher will only need processing to IV for the crystals on T2 strip miners. He might now be at that point right now but he will down the road get to the point where the SP is best invested there than anything else unless he plans to do something else than mining. If he does have other plan, then it will be absed on what he value the most between 1.8xxx% yield while mining or whatever any other skill would give him on his other carrer path.
Shoogie Serious Pixels 63	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:23:00 - [52] - Quote What penalty? Shield Hardeners don't have a penalty, except their cap use which is constant. If you are thinking that shield bleed-thorough damage is a penalty, you are wrong. You die when your hull is destroyed, not when your armor is scratched. Allowing damage to penetrate your shield means your shield will be at a higher level and passively re-generate more hps the next server tick. More HPs is always better than less HPs. Therefore, training Tactical Shield Manipulation will decrease your tank.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 870	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:26:00 - [53] - Quote Shield uniformity is the penalty. I heard a rumor that the skill is bugged, that training it to 5 actually puts you at only 80% uniformity. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
Liam Inkuras Chaotic Tranquility Casoff 823	Posted - 2014.01.17 20:41:00 - [54] - Quote Plex prices change, the bonus does not /thread P.S. Play the damn game instead of looking at excel I wear my goggles at night. Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 872	Posted - 2014.01.18 00:33:00 - [55] - Quote Liam Inkuras wrote: Plex prices change, the bonus does not Don't forget that the price of Plex has for a long time had a strong correlation to the value of highsec ore. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 35	Posted - 2014.01.18 00:46:00 - [56] - Quote Liam Inkuras wrote: Plex prices change, the bonus does not /thread P.S. Play the damn game instead of looking at excel I dunno, I play the game to the best of my abilities, and to figure out what the best thing to do is, requires excel. Since Eve have little in terms of good overview interfaces that serve the purpose that excel does. Things I do based on what I have found in excel is for example only training one research skill to L5 and then having 6 L4 research agents to do that one research (that is what I am currently working towards, standing grind is grinding slow). That way I get 6x max daily research points and don't need to train 5 other research skills to L5. The research skills take x5 training time, so that is 5x 1 256 000 SP that I don't have to train, that I can use on alts that also train one research skill to L5 and research project management V. its fun to get the maximum benefit for minimum input
Kirkwood Ross Golden Profession 119	Posted - 2014.01.18 01:27:00 - [57] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Kirkwood Ross wrote: You didn't mention the extra effects from any mining implants or mining foreman links from that 3% increase. I wait for someone with actual expertise of the mathematical formula that calculates mining yield to give us some insight into how that works. Until then the 700 hour estimate as given by my trip in EVEHQ seems accurate enough. I left the OP open to (hopefully) more accurate rebuttals as indicated by the last sentence, but I think the mathematicians are over in the market discussion forum. "Do you plan on flying an exhumer(...)" You are correct. As I have stated, if one plans to mine enough Exhumer V is well worth it, but "enough" is over 700 hours of effective Hulk mining. There's a time and place for exhumer V, but I think it is a very small niche. Both have max boosts/implants in a Hulk 203,520m3 per hour with V 198,240m3 per hour with IV If you can mine in a good setup and have someone who guards against rats then you can start to add in the mighty yield of Mining Drone IIs.
Bertrand Butler Cras es Noster 142	Posted - 2014.01.18 01:38:00 - [58] - Quote If you have a mining toon in an account you will use for mining and you intend to actually mine with it then you will train exhumers V sooner or later. No buts or ifs, no exceptions. You can not correlate isk for SP vs skill profit, since SPs come for free when you play the game. Its apples and oranges. The only niche where exhumers V would be detrimental is if 1. you have a mining toon as an alt in the same account as your main which is not a miner, 2. you use plex for dual training 3. you use the account to train toons for selling and 4. you don't intend to mine much. All four at the same time. Train exhumers V. isk is cheap anyway..
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 605	Posted - 2014.01.18 02:03:00 - [59] - Quote Wait I'm on my phone so I don't want to go through the OP's long posts but is he training two characters on the same account to mine??? You can only be logged on one at a time so if that's true I'm confused as to why...
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 36	Posted - 2014.01.18 02:16:00 - [60] - Quote IIshira wrote: Wait I'm on my phone so I don't want to go through the OP's long posts but is he training two characters on the same account to mine??? You can only be logged on one at a time so if that's true I'm confused as to why... Each account gets to train skills on at least 1 toon, but when you reach Exhumer IV then you begin training another toon miner on your account. You still mine with your original toon, but you use the SP more effectively by training an additional miner (or other type of toon). When the other miner toon is complete and you want to mine with it, you put it on its own account and then you have two accounts with two finished miner toons. But you still get SP on these two accounts, so you begin training an extra miner toon on both accounts to make best use of the SP that each account ticks in.

Bertrand Butler Cras es Noster 143	Posted - 2014.01.18 02:24:00 - [61] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: IIshira wrote: Wait I'm on my phone so I don't want to go through the OP's long posts but is he training two characters on the same account to mine??? You can only be logged on one at a time so if that's true I'm confused as to why... Each account gets to train skills on at least 1 toon, but when you reach Exhumer IV then you begin training another toon miner on your account. You still mine with your original toon, but you use the SP more effectively by training an additional miner (or other type of toon). When the other miner toon is complete and you want to mine with it, you put it on its own account and then you have two accounts with two finished miner toons. But you still get SP on these two accounts, so you begin training an extra miner toon on both accounts to make best use of the SP that each account ticks in. Thats sounds like a job, with the caveat of having to pay for it, instead of getting payed. I think you should really start to think harder about why you play this game man. Moreover, what you describe is a very small niche, while you were arguing for the exact opposite.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 36	Posted - 2014.01.18 02:43:00 - [62] - Quote It does not matter what it sounds like, its the most SP-efficient thing to do. The most time-efficient thing is to cook your own dinner the day you planned to go for takeout food, and then you can buy a plex or two for the money you saved. Then you make 1 200 000 000 isk for under an hours grinding and can go do PVP.
Bertrand Butler Cras es Noster 143	Posted - 2014.01.18 02:50:00 - [63] - Quote Quote: The most time-efficient thing is to cook your own dinner the day you planned to go for takeout food, and then you can buy a plex or two for the money you saved. Then you make 1 200 000 000 isk for under an hours grinding and can go do PVP. If you do understand that, go train exhumers V and buy a plex to train the other toon. Or even better, stop mining.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 873	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:11:00 - [64] - Quote One thing is for certain: when someone comes up with a brilliant and well thought out point to consider, not one other person will ever understand it. I therefore conclude that I am not a person. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 605	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:36:00 - [65] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: IIshira wrote: Wait I'm on my phone so I don't want to go through the OP's long posts but is he training two characters on the same account to mine??? You can only be logged on one at a time so if that's true I'm confused as to why... Each account gets to train skills on at least 1 toon, but when you reach Exhumer IV then you begin training another toon miner on your account. You still mine with your original toon, but you use the SP more effectively by training an additional miner (or other type of toon). When the other miner toon is complete and you want to mine with it, you put it on its own account and then you have two accounts with two finished miner toons. But you still get SP on these two accounts, so you begin training an extra miner toon on both accounts to make best use of the SP that each account ticks in. Or you can actually put your second pilot on a separate account for exactly the same cost but be able to mine and make ISK with both at the same time. If you're concerned with efficiency why are you cutting your ISK per hour in half?
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 873	Posted - 2014.01.18 03:50:00 - [66] - Quote It's not the same cost. He can play one toon and plex the other when they are on the same account. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
Silvetica Dian Manson Family Advent of Fate 597	Posted - 2014.01.18 14:44:00 - [67] - Quote Garak n00biachi wrote: Stop turning this game into a god damn spreadsheet...how hard is it to just play\enjoy the game. If there are skills that benefit you more and take less than that lvl 5 do those first, in any other case just run the damn skill for a month and play the game. he is a miner so he isn't enjoying the game anyway here is a list of all the fiat currencies that didn't end up at zero value.....and here is a list of the places where a currency pegged to a real commodity has successfully co-existed with compound interest....-á Here is a physics professor explaining why sustainable growth isn't a thing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 605	Posted - 2014.01.18 19:06:00 - [68] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: It's not the same cost. He can play one toon and plex the other when they are on the same account. You can also do this with pilots on separate accounts. Just as you can pay with cash or PLEX for a second pilot on the same account you can do this if it's on a separate account.
RAIN Arthie The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing 195	Posted - 2014.01.18 19:29:00 - [69] - Quote http://i.imgur.com/2h6D2Wr.png?1 That pic tells a story of mining. An epic grand scale mining multiboxing miner with loads of isk. That isk can crush you at the wave of his finger. So yes, you should train exhumers all the way up.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 37	Posted - 2014.01.19 01:18:00 - [70] - Quote Rain Arthie, that person probably has to mine something like 2100 hours to make profit from training Exhumer V (since he uses Mackinaws). If he does this, he should have trained Exhumer V, but if does not, it would be a detriment to his wallet if he trained Exhumer V on all these accounts instead of using all these accounts to train new miners. Ilshira, when one has completed training a miner up to Exhumer IV on toon 1 on account 1 you still get SP on account 1. If you made another account right away and began training a miner on account 2, what would you spend the SP that account 1 racks in every month you play on it? Making the second account before toon 2 on account 1 is completed is a waste of the account 1 SP (unless you have something to train on toon 1 other than mining skills).

IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 607	Posted - 2014.01.19 01:56:00 - [71] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Ilshira, when one has completed training a miner up to Exhumer IV on toon 1 on account 1 you still get SP on account 1. If you made another account right away and began training a miner on account 2, what would you spend the SP that account 1 racks in every month you play on it? Making the second account before toon 2 on account 1 is completed is a waste of the account 1 SP (unless you have something to train on toon 1 other than mining skills). Okay sorry I'm a bit confused. You're saying you have two mining pilots on one account. Both are actively training by using a PLEX because you're about to finish training on pilot 1 and don't want to make a new account for pilot 2? If this is correct that makes sense since you won't have to pay the transfer fee once you finish pilot 2. That still doesn't clear up my confusion about why would you want two mining pilots on the same account. Since you can only log into one the other one will always make 0 ISK per hour. You're spending double training time for no added benefit.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 37	Posted - 2014.01.19 02:10:00 - [72] - Quote Jeez. You have 1 plex per month on your account, but you turn off the training on your first finished miner so you can train the other miner on that account. You can train any 1 of the 3 characters on each account, doesn't matter which. As long as you pause one queue when you want to train another queue.
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 607	Posted - 2014.01.19 02:24:00 - [73] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Jeez. You have 1 plex per month on your account, but you turn off the training on your first finished miner so you can train the other miner on that account. You can train any 1 of the 3 characters on each account, doesn't matter which. As long as you pause one queue when you want to train another queue. I thought you were talking about the new "Dual character training" where you can train two accounts at the same time... Sorry not all here... Posting on the forms and watching a Chinese war series on another laptop. I have no clue what they're saying but it's pretty good Why have two miners on one account anyway since you can use only one? That was my big question. I agree that the bonus is low compared to other ships but what do you suggest as a fix? I would think if they just increased the bonus without lowering the base value it would cause ore prices to drop.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 37	Posted - 2014.01.19 03:02:00 - [74] - Quote "Why have two miners on one account anyway since you can use only one? That was my big question." I haven't got a clue where the confusion lay. If character 1 on account 1 is a miner that is maxed out (1) then it is like a full glass of water, there's no point in training more on it. So you put a glass next to it, under the same tap, and then you fill another glass (train another miner on the same account). Once you have two full miners you put one on account 2 and start filling a second miner on both accounts. Because both miners are full. (1) - Maxed out means that it no longer is beneficial to train more mining skills. If you mine with mackinaw you have to mine 2100 hours to begin making profit on Exhumer V, if you mine with Hulk you have to mine 700 hours before you begin making profit on Exhumer V. So if you mine with Mackinaw and will not mine more than 2100 hours during the next few years, then maxed out means that you have trained Exhumer IV (And all the other beneficial skills). I'm not saying its "broken", because not all skills have to be profitable right away. But people should know they're not profitable right away, and they should know when they become profitable. When it comes to Exhumer V, it becomes profitable only when you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk, or 2100 hours with Mackinaw.
Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 883	Posted - 2014.01.19 03:07:00 - [75] - Quote Ronny, I've got to ask you a few questions, out of curiosity: 1.) you seem to have the answers to your original questions (in fact you seem to be the only one), so why are you still here? 2.) are there any unanswered questions you have remaining? 3.) is this a stealth educational thread meant to teach people how to excel at spreadsheet mining? 4.) how would you honestly rate your avatar, absent any opinions you think or know others have of it? I mean no ill will and carry no hidden agenda with this. I'm just curious to get your answers to these. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 37	Posted - 2014.01.19 04:02:00 - [76] - Quote 1. I haven't got a clue why I post to forums, it has no profit involved and only every so rarely do I find someone else who have spent time and effort to try to put value in their comment, but alas, here I am because I'm bored. 2. I'd really like it if someone who had studied the mining yield stuff would come and give us a more accurate timescale than my 700 hours estimate, possibly calculating the time to make a profit on Exhumer IV and all the Mining Barge levels etc. The thing with spreadsheets is that once you have put a formula in you can mass-produce answers by dragging the corner of the box down, possibly giving us a beautiful spreadsheet showing us how long it takes to make a profit from every mining skill alone and put together in various ways. I make spreadsheets with the turret formula to see how all the variables change damage application with and without various help (target painters, tracking computers, falloff rigs etc), but I have not yet bothered to look into the mining yield formula to do the same thing. 3. I thought one or two of the dozens that read the OP would find the thought of Exhumer V skill profitability interesting, and thus posted it for posterity because it might save some people who don't mine often 20 days of SP. 4. I presume my avatar has no reason to want to look tough or dangerous because that is how people make money. They say "Oh look, this car looks like it means business with its black paint, low clearance and angry-looking headlamps" and then this fool pays a premium to get a car that he thinks makes him look high-status, dangerous and tough, when his old car works just fine. Then they sell this person dangerous-looking monocles and robot arms and black trench-coats and Titans. No ill will intended :P
RAIN Arthie The Ascended Fleet Intrepid Crossing 197	Posted - 2014.01.19 12:05:00 - [77] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Rain Arthie, that person probably has to mine something like 2100 hours to make profit from training Exhumer V (since he uses Mackinaws). If he does this, he should have trained Exhumer V, but if does not, it would be a detriment to his wallet if he trained Exhumer V on all these accounts instead of using all these accounts to train new miners. Ilshira, when one has completed training a miner up to Exhumer IV on toon 1 on account 1 you still get SP on account 1. If you made another account right away and began training a miner on account 2, what would you spend the SP that account 1 racks in every month you play on it? Making the second account before toon 2 on account 1 is completed is a waste of the account 1 SP (unless you have something to train on toon 1 other than mining skills). I see your point however we know very little about the op. He could be rich with loads of money that can do something like this. I say do it if mining is your passion. If your not sure don't do it.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 39	Posted - 2014.01.19 12:25:00 - [78] - Quote RAIN Arthie wrote: I see your point however we know very little about the op. He could be rich with loads of money that can do something like this. I say do it if mining is your passion. If your not sure don't do it. The rich man who shows all the signs of being a poor middle-class man is a rich man who most likely will stay rich. In other words, just because one can afford to waste, that does not mean waste is wise.
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 613	Posted - 2014.01.19 15:46:00 - [79] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: "Why have two miners on one account anyway since you can use only one? That was my big question." I haven't got a clue where the confusion lay. If character 1 on account 1 is a miner that is maxed out (1) then it is like a full glass of water, there's no point in training more on it. So you put a glass next to it, under the same tap, and then you fill another glass (train another miner on the same account). Once you have two full miners you put one on account 2 and start filling a second miner on both accounts. Because both miners are full. (1) - Maxed out means that it no longer is beneficial to train more mining skills. If you mine with mackinaw you have to mine 2100 hours to begin making profit on Exhumer V, if you mine with Hulk you have to mine 700 hours before you begin making profit on Exhumer V. So if you mine with Mackinaw and will not mine more than 2100 hours during the next few years, then maxed out means that you have trained Exhumer IV (And all the other beneficial skills). I'm not saying its "broken", because not all skills have to be profitable right away. But people should know they're not profitable right away, and they should know when they become profitable. When it comes to Exhumer V, it becomes profitable only when you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk, or 2100 hours with Mackinaw. Okay you're not getting my point so I'm making it simple 2 x Miners on 1 account = Only 1 miner can be used at a time = 50% wasted SP 2 x Miners on 2 accounts = Both miners can be used together = No wasted SP
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 40	Posted - 2014.01.20 03:54:00 - [80] - Quote I get what you say, but you are not getting what I am saying. "2 x Miners on 2 accounts = Both miners can be used together = No wasted SP" What will you spend the SP from account 1 on? The miner on that account is fully trained.

Reaver Glitterstim Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore 889	Posted - 2014.01.20 03:58:00 - [81] - Quote howabout advanced weapon upgrades and advanced drone interfacing? Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) And bring back the missile Inquisitor!!
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 40	Posted - 2014.01.20 04:01:00 - [82] - Quote Reaver Glitterstim wrote: howabout advanced weapon upgrades and advanced drone interfacing? Please suggest how those skills would make a return on investment for a miner.
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 615	Posted - 2014.01.20 04:33:00 - [83] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: I get what you say, but you are not getting what I am saying. "2 x Miners on 2 accounts = Both miners can be used together = No wasted SP" What will you spend the SP from account 1 on? The miner on that account is fully trained. I guess if all you want to train for is mining nothing once you get all your mining skills up. I'm running into this with my mission pilot at the moment. I'm just saying if you had them on separate accounts you would double your ISK per hour. Right now you have two pilots on one account that do exactly the same thing. It's your PLEX though so I'm not one to tell you how to play. I just thought it didn't seem efficient or logical.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 40	Posted - 2014.01.20 05:07:00 - [84] - Quote If you had 1 fully trained miner and 1 training miner you would not double your isk by having them on separate accounts. The new miner has low yield. If you for example mine the fully trained miner enough to get 700 000 000 isk every month, so you can plex it and have 70M to spare, then the new miner would not be able to pay for itself until very late in the training. Hence, you train the new miner on the finished miner account instead of on its own account. I have thought this through, training the new miner on the finished miner account is the efficient way.
Sadario Meatshield Bastards The Bastards. 8	Posted - 2014.01.20 12:40:00 - [85] - Quote Following your logic, it is correct it isn't worth training, assuming you spend eternity creating new miners. As soon as you reach your preferred amount of miners, with all of them on separate accounts, fully trained with the exception of Exhumers 5, you are going to train it. It's not a question wether it's worth training. It's a question when the inevitable occurs.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 40	Posted - 2014.01.20 14:52:00 - [86] - Quote Sadario, as previously stated a bunch of times, my logic on Exhumer V is to only train it if I will mine that toon with a hulk more than 700 hours (more than 2100 hours if mackinaw). Once I reached my preferred amount of miners I would begin training other types of toons, perhaps offer my corp to order the ones they need (I could churn out many at one time). So, no, your statement "It's not a question wether it's worth training." is wrong.
Noxisia Arkana Deadspace Knights 60	Posted - 2014.01.20 15:16:00 - [87] - Quote Garak n00biachi wrote: Stop turning this game into a god damn spreadsheet...how hard is it to just play\enjoy the game. If there are skills that benefit you more and take less than that lvl 5 do those first, in any other case just run the damn skill for a month and play the game. I'm going to frame this above my computer.
James Nikolas Tesla Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 13	Posted - 2014.01.21 03:14:00 - [88] - Quote What I want to know is how the OP got 400,000,000ISK out of a 20+ day skill? I am an AFK miner, don't like it? Try to gank me, odds are I am already aligned and not that far from my keyboard.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 41	Posted - 2014.01.21 07:12:00 - [89] - Quote James Nikolas Tesla wrote: What I want to know is how the OP got 400,000,000ISK out of a 20+ day skill? It costs 600 000 000 isk to plex your account for 30 days, hence 20 days of gametime is 400 000 000 isk.


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