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Exhumer V, is it worth training?

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Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.14 23:53:00 - [1] - Quote Exhumer V skill costs almost 20 Days to train with +4 imps, that is about 2/3 of one Plex. One plex costs 600 000 000 isk, so 2/3 is 400 000 000 isk. Is it worth training this for a 3% increase in mining yield on hulk? Lets find out. I'm now going to calculate how much veldspar you would have to mine in order for that 3% bonus to make 400 000 000 isk on its own. 3% is compared to 100% what 1 is compared to 33 (100 divided by 33 is 3), so if you mine 33 cubic meters ore with exhumers IV you mine 1 extra in that time with exhumer V. So with exhumer V you mine 34 000 m3 with Hulk and you know the last 1000 m3 is what you got from training exhumer V. This means you have to mine 34x 400 000 000 isk worth of ore, to earn back that exhumer V skill. This is about 100 000 000 m3 veldspar. If you have someone to haul for your Hulk, and max skill Orca (39.86 m3 per second as far as I can tell with imps), then its 29 days of none-stop mining in Hulk. 700 hours of constant mining, if we add the effects of half-cycles (the last cycle that depletes an asteroid is on average about half a turret yield), and downtime, and bio breaks, we're talking at least a thousand hours of none-stop mining. I chose veldspar as an example because it is an ore you are likely to be able to mine none-stop since its everywhere. So we can conclude that if you mine enough to earn back that exhumer V training, then you contribute way too much to the economy of Eve I think its time to revisit the mining system a bit. Or what do you think? Anyone want to defend the current exhumer skill bonuses?
Garak n00biachi Capital Destruction AL3XAND3R. 104	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:08:00 - [2] - Quote Stop turning this game into a god damn spreadsheet...how hard is it to just play\enjoy the game. If there are skills that benefit you more and take less than that lvl 5 do those first, in any other case just run the damn skill for a month and play the game.
nahjustwarpin SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS 109	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:12:00 - [3] - Quote cry topic about "why my 1 month skill only gives 3% bonus". there are more skills like that, but people just skill them to unlock stuff and not to get worthless bonus.
Ludaman The Bad Boy's The Bad Boy's II 0	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:13:00 - [4] - Quote If mining is only part of what you do I would say no not worth it. There are other skill to train but, if that is all you do then you may as well max your yield. I would not look at skill training time costing you isk. Personally I think of skills as isk making multipliers.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:19:00 - [5] - Quote To make it clear, I do not complain about this feature as I do not have exhumer V, it is an observation that I hope CCP will use to determine if this is as intended or if it is an unintended consequence of their skill bonus setup.
Iyokus Patrouette End-of-Line 94	Posted - 2014.01.15 00:42:00 - [6] - Quote I don't know, using a PLEX as some sort of gauge to skill bonuses on ships doesn't sit well. . you're pretty much saying It costs me half a billion to get an extra 5% damage on my cruiser. . that's X amount of ships i will have to destroy and get the loot from to make it worth training. Which sounds pretty stupid. If you do nothing but mine for a living, than yes it is worth training to 5. if not, than no it possibly isn't. regardless, I would be questioning the actually usefulness of a hulk compared to the other mining barges since the changes. It's a different argument, but i would question whether the hulk itself is worth using anymore. large ore yield, low cargo hold. lots of micro managing to keep dumping the ore before the hold fills up providing you have haulers to collect containers you jettison. . . But i don't actually mine anymore so my thoughts are purely off thought and not the actual use of the ship. Join End-of-Line, -EOL, today, and kill your CEO! (Terms and conditions apply.)
Gregor Parud 108	Posted - 2014.01.15 01:59:00 - [7] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: To make it clear, I do not complain about this feature as I do not have exhumer V, it is an observation that I hope CCP will use to determine if this is as intended or if it is an unintended consequence of their skill bonus setup. No, you ARE complaining. LVL 5 skills are a choice (unless required as a prerequisite), and generally ppl go for that choice when they trained up all the other related skills and at some point it starts to make sense to go for the lvl 5s. CCP knows, and has known for the last 10 years, EXACTLY how this works and why this works, stop trying to hide your whining in marketing babble.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 02:16:00 - [8] - Quote Gregor, I'm not complaining. I have no opinion on whether it is a good or bad fact, I just think it is a fact. The fact is that it takes a thousand hours of mining to get a profit on exhumer V. Is it a complaint if I were to point out that gravity on Earth accelerates objects at 9.8 meters per second per second? Would you think it implies that I think it should be more or less?
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 599	Posted - 2014.01.15 03:49:00 - [9] - Quote It takes about 20 days if you're neutral mapped. For this time you get the 3 percent bonus to yield. I'll agree that compared to other Spaceship command skills you get quite a bit less. However CCP has to be careful about giving boosts to the overall mining yield since that could end up bad for the economy. One solution to this problem would be to reduce the base yield of Exhumers then make it where at level 5 it's close to what it is now at level 5. This way it would make the training well worth it and give people a reason to train the skill all the way to 5. The downside of this would be dozens of post crying about it's not fair for them to train a skill to 5. One other skill that has pretty poor returns at 5 is the T2 weapon specs. It takes 20 days for medium and 32 days for large. This is for a 2 percent DPS boost! This being said I have the skill trained up to 5 for small, med and large on the main weapon type my pilots use. 2 percent for a month sounds horrible but it's worth it to me.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 1995	Posted - 2014.01.15 04:00:00 - [10] - Quote Bah. If we're going to be throwing math around -- and it may and may not be appropriate to the problem here -- let's at least do it right. You do not gain 3% yield from Exhumers 5. You gain (1.15-1.12)/1.12 = 2.69% yield. Likewise, you do not gain 2% from turret spec 5, you gain (1.1-1.08)/1.08 = 1.85%. In either case, whether that extra bit is worthwhile is a very personal choice. If you really want to mine as much as possible or eke out as much damage as possible and there are no other avenues and there's nothing else on the account that would help any of the characters -- for goodness sake, do it. Accounting based on plex alone is silly though; if you don't pay for the account then you won't be mining anything.

Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 329	Posted - 2014.01.15 04:02:00 - [11] - Quote IIshira wrote: The downside of this would be dozens of post crying about it's not fair for them to train a skill to 5. I fail to see how this is a downside.
IIshira School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 599	Posted - 2014.01.15 04:06:00 - [12] - Quote Antillie Sa'Kan wrote: IIshira wrote: The downside of this would be dozens of post crying about it's not fair for them to train a skill to 5. I fail to see how this is a downside. I just meant you can't make everyone happy. To make the skill worth training you would end up making people that didn't have it trained upset.
Paranoid Loyd 295	Posted - 2014.01.15 05:10:00 - [13] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: To make it clear, I do not complain about this feature as I do not have exhumer V, it is an observation that I hope CCP will use to determine if this is as intended or if it is an unintended consequence of their skill bonus setup. Why would you point it out like you are the first person in ten years to notice this and your shiptoast is going to make CCP realize how stupid they have been all this time? At the same time you say you are not complaining or have an opinion either way Your view is vary narrow, there are diminishing returns for every skill. Comparing anything to PLEX is the path to boredom and burnout. I really don't understand why people think they need to play this game for free. It costs less than a dollar a day to play. If you can't spare a dollar for the entertainment this game provides, you probably shouldn't be playing video games. The game is about choice, if you don't think it is worth it, it is pretty simple, don't train it. Loyd's Loot: Items for sale in Dodixie
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 05:27:00 - [14] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: Read the last line of your OP and tell me how that is not complaining. You obviously took a side of the argument. The purpose of this thread was only to point out a piece of mathematics I did today. I should never have put that statement in OP because its another discussion. (the other discussion is this: I can't mine unless I do something else to entertain myself (I study and exercise while mining). Maybe the miners should have turrets slots for guns and a proper tank and have to mine in security missions or something, then the yield could be a lot higher (and Exhumer V worth it) because the NPC resistance balances it out (you can't fit 8 mining mods in the low slots without getting blown up unless you have logi and other support). Then mining would be mildly entertaining. Maybe the Exhumer skill could have other bonuses per level also that make it worth it, like better tank and drone HP) But enough off topic. I ask, do anyone have any mathematical or otherwise arguments to show that it is more or less worth it to train Exhumer V than what I put in OP? PS: "The game is about choice, if you don't think it is worth it, it is pretty simple, don't train it." - Yes, but I would argue that a stupid choice is not a real choice, it is just a pretend choice. Like if I were to offer you this: 1 Abaddon for 250 000 000 isk or 1 Armageddon AND 1 Abaddon for 250 000 000 isk. No one in their right mind would choose the first choice, so it is not a real choice you can make, it just has the appearance of being 2 choices.
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 1995	Posted - 2014.01.15 06:02:00 - [15] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: But enough off topic. I ask, do anyone have any mathematical or otherwise arguments to show that it is more or less worth it to train Exhumer V than what I put in OP? Yes. I already made it, but I'll be more explicit. Having an active account allows multiple things: training of one character, use of one character at a time in game, and access to three characters. That one PLEX gives you all of those things. Now, let's assume that you use your account primarily for mining. If you have alts on the account, they are already where you want them for whatever they do whether that's manufacturing or market games or cyno or whatever. Your miner is nearly maxed out and you want more yield. In order to get that, you have to train Exhumers 5. Remember, you're already paying for the account; you need to to access the game. Why, under such circumstances, would you not train it? You get more yield and the cost is actually zero. Which is all to say, training is actually an opportunity cost mechanic, not a direct cost. If you treat it as a direct cost, which you did, your math makes sense. But the real question is not whether training it has a return, it's whether anything else has a better return. If the answer is no, you train the skill.
Paranoid Loyd 296	Posted - 2014.01.15 08:48:00 - [16] - Quote I will not reply to your last post as the example you countered with was so bad and totally irrelevant it made me puke in my mouth. Instead I will humor you and let you explain to us what the "math" tells you would be the necessary increase to the level 5 skill to make it "worth training" Then please explain to us how every miner that already has exhumer V and all the additional miners that will soon have level V would not crash the mineral market with their new and improved yield? How as an individual do you feel that work out for you compared to the larger groups? Loyd's Loot: Items for sale in Dodixie
Sid Crash 82	Posted - 2014.01.15 09:40:00 - [17] - Quote How is this so difficult to comprehend? - no one is forcing you to train it to lvl 5 - people who trained all the other relevant skills and choose not to focus on other skill areas will get that to 5 in a "might as well" kind of way - nothing is forced to be "economically worthwhile", that's just your perception - there's tons of skills that aren't necessary as such, other than "more is better" - stop trying so hard using lots of words to hide the fact that you ARE complaining
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:03:00 - [18] - Quote Paranoid Loyd wrote: I will not reply to your last post as the example you countered with was so bad and totally irrelevant it made me puke in my mouth. Instead I will humor you and let you explain to us what the "math" tells you would be the necessary increase to the level 5 skill to make it "worth training" Then please explain to us how every miner that already has exhumer V and all the additional miners that will soon have level V would not crash the mineral market with their new and improved yield? How as an individual do you feel that work out for you compared to the larger groups? See price drop of aluminium. It was once so valuable that the richest kings ate from aluminium plates instead of gold plates, and today we can get one metric ton of aluminium for less than a months salary. Yet today we earn much more money from extraction and use of aluminium than we did when aluminium was much more valuable. Hence, improving the means of gathering resources is not a bad thing. If I were to take your bait I would devise a system in which the resource yields and construction efficiency increase slightly every update. So that miners would have to continue buying new mining modules in order to have the maximum yield that is possible. And every launch there would be more stuff, larger ships, larger anchorable objects, bigger things that requires more resources, to help increase demand for ore and manufacturing of items. If we increase yield by 1% and the demand stays exactly the same then the price would drop by about 1% (Its not exactly 1%, its about 1.001%). But you would still make the same amount of isk per hour you mine, but you would have to mine 1% less to make yourself a battleship, and would think its 1% less of a big deal if you lose your battleship, so you would fly a percentage more hours both PVE and PVP (assuming you're the average EVE player that does everything on average the same amount as the average EVE player). And you would lose more battleships, and you would kill more battleships. Not to mention the modules for them and you would have more salvage to make more rigs for them etc. I always think "here comes a good one" when the six characters "math" (including quotation marks) is used. Sid Crash, am not complaining, I find this "feature" of the Exhumer V skill very amusing. It is like finding an easter egg left for us by CCP, "here's this strange economic option, watch people pay to choose it" I would support making more mathematically profitless skills if CCP wants to make sure people always have something to spend their subscription-time on, but I would still point out how profitless they are. People are free to play the lottery as a bad investment, but then they do it because they want to sit there in anticipation of possibly winning, they can't argue that they do it for the good odds and monetary return on investment. And you can not argue that people train Exhumer V in order to make a profit on training it, they do it because they want to feel like they get the maximum return from every hour they mine. I know I have invested in T2 lasers ONLY because I want to know I kill the NPCs 8% faster than I would with T1 guns (I only have to IV on large lasers). With T1 guns I was haunted by the feeling that "3 battleships left in the last room, if I had T2 guns I would have turned in the mission already", which diminished the entertainment value of the game for me. But I have probably yet to make a profit on that large pulse specialization IV skill. Stop trying so hard to argue that I am complaining just because you believe (wrongly) that I am complaining. Its turning into a religion. If you can't take my word for it when I say I am not complaining, then I will insist you are doing something you claim you are not to balance things out. But then mods will probably stop our highly advanced and civilized discussion.
Sid Crash 83	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:14:00 - [19] - Quote Which part of "I trained all the skills that affect my dps/yield/speed to level 4, I'm done with the other skills, might as well get these lvl 5s out of the way" don't you get. - why train navigation to 5, not like you NEED - why train Surgical strike to lvl 5, not like you NEED it - why train Combat Drones to lvl 5, not like you NEED it etc etc ad nauseam.
Anize Oramara S T R A T C O M Ragnarok. 114	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:41:00 - [20] - Quote the op's view is extremely narrow; isolating variables in a large equation, evaluating them and judging them without taking into account anything that impacts them or what it will impact. making wild conjectures and assumptions based on the flimsiest pseudo logic and quack math. op, it is extremely simple, why train exumer v on a mining toon? pay attention now because you seem to miss this every time: BECAUSE THERES NOTHING ELSE TO TRAIN TO INCREASE YIELD. we done now?

Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 710	Posted - 2014.01.15 11:46:00 - [21] - Quote lmao, never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes haha. Hint: you're wrong, you are turning in PLEX for your game time, skills are free :>
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 12:24:00 - [22] - Quote Anize Oramara wrote: the op's view is extremely narrow; isolating variables in a large equation, evaluating them and judging them without taking into account anything that impacts them or what it will impact. making wild conjectures and assumptions based on the flimsiest pseudo logic and quack math. op, it is extremely simple, why train exumer v on a mining toon? pay attention now because you seem to miss this every time: BECAUSE THERES NOTHING ELSE TO TRAIN TO INCREASE YIELD. we done now? If you have a mining alt on the same account as your main character then why would you pay for 1 extra plex of dual character training just to get 3% more yield which takes 700 hours of your time to earn back? 700 hours without Exhumer V would pay for 33 months gametime that you can spend being entertained by Eve. 700 hours with Exhumer V would pay for 34 months gametime that you can spend being entertained by Eve. I am not saying people should not train Exhumer V, I am sure there are people who mine enough to make a profit on it in just a couple years on all their toons and then multi-box a dozen hulks and plex all their accounts and buy a Titan with the profits. But I am also sure that you would have to mine for 700 hours with a hulk with orca boosts to make up the investment, so you may as well invest it in a mining barge toon instead. Though once you have two accounts you are no longer a causal player and almost have to mine every month to plex your accounts, otherwise it will quickly become a very costly game over time. Robert, "never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes" - really? I wouldn't have guessed :P Everything in eve is measured in PLEX, ships, loot, battles, toons (and when training toons, skills are measured in plexes).
Anize Oramara S T R A T C O M Ragnarok. 115	Posted - 2014.01.15 13:12:00 - [23] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Anize Oramara wrote: the op's view is extremely narrow; isolating variables in a large equation, evaluating them and judging them without taking into account anything that impacts them or what it will impact. making wild conjectures and assumptions based on the flimsiest pseudo logic and quack math. op, it is extremely simple, why train exumer v on a mining toon? pay attention now because you seem to miss this every time: BECAUSE THERES NOTHING ELSE TO TRAIN TO INCREASE YIELD. we done now? If you have a mining alt on the same account as your main character then why would you pay for 1 extra plex of dual character training just to get 3% more yield which takes 700 hours of your time to earn back? 700 hours without Exhumer V would pay for 33 months gametime that you can spend being entertained by Eve. 700 hours with Exhumer V would pay for 34 months gametime that you can spend being entertained by Eve. I am not saying people should not train Exhumer V, I am sure there are people who mine enough to make a profit on it in just a couple years on all their toons and then multi-box a dozen hulks and plex all their accounts and buy a Titan with the profits. But I am also sure that you would have to mine for 700 hours with a hulk with orca boosts to make up the investment, so you may as well invest it in a mining barge toon instead. Though once you have two accounts you are no longer a causal player and almost have to mine every month to plex your accounts, otherwise it will quickly become a very costly game over time. Robert, "never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes" - really? I wouldn't have guessed :P Everything in eve is measured in PLEX, ships, loot, battles, toons (and when training toons, skills are measured in plexes). you ask is exumer v worth training. we say yes in x situation it is worth it. you swoop in and proudly slap you shlong in everones face saying 'hah no you are all wrong in y situation it is not!' are you mentally ********? in eve the answer is always 'it depends on the situation'. also measuring skills in plex is stupid. instead devide it by pie. everyone likes pie
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 13:38:00 - [24] - Quote "you swoop in and proudly slap you shlong in everones face saying 'hah no you are all wrong in y situation it is not!'" - No, that is not what I am doing. Is this where I put words in your mouth and put actions on your shoulders and then get the thread closed? "in eve the answer is always 'it depends on the situation'." While Exhumer V may be the optimum choice in some situation, for example if you want more ore to make stuff but can't be bothered to start another account, then exhumer V MAY BE the way to go. But that situation is only if you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support in your time in Eve. But if you are not going to mine 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support during your time in Eve then you may as well sell that plex you would have spent on Exhumer V and buy 400 000 000 isk worth of ore (I assume people buy plex and then use that to run their accounts, instead of paying to get account time, that can not be turned into isk). Because then you have that extra ore you would have gotten from investing in Exhumer V. Only you turned the plex directly into Ore instead of into training time. I have done this math precisely so people can judge when it is in their best interest to train Exhumer V, and when it is not in their best interest. I am not saying that it is never the right choice. I have time and time again said it is the right choice if you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support on that toon. To feed it with a teaspoon: This is when the situation is right to train Exhumer V: When you will mine way more than 19 800 000 000 isk worth of ore. This is when the situation is wrong to train Exhumer V: When you will not mine more than 19 800 000 000 isk worth of ore. other factors can influence this slightly.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 710	Posted - 2014.01.15 13:45:00 - [25] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: Robert, "never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes" - really? I wouldn't have guessed :P Everything in eve is measured in PLEX, ships, loot, battles, toons (and when training toons, skills are measured in plexes). this is rtarded, obviously. So you never going to maximize your skills for profession you've chosen for eve? What else would you skill instead while you're mining rocks? Something completely unrelated? Gunnery? Market stuff? Nothing at all because its not "worth" the PLEX you would spend anyways? You would probably end up with a toon who can do many, many things but nothing properly.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:08:00 - [26] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Ronny Hugo wrote: Robert, "never heard someone valueing skill levels with PLEXes" - really? I wouldn't have guessed :P Everything in eve is measured in PLEX, ships, loot, battles, toons (and when training toons, skills are measured in plexes). this is rtarded, obviously. So you never going to maximize your skills for profession you've chosen for eve? What else would you skill instead while you're mining rocks? Something completely unrelated? Gunnery? Market stuff? Nothing at all because its not "worth" the PLEX you would spend anyways? You would probably end up with a toon who can do many, many things but nothing properly. "properly"? If my ship does 97-98% of its maximum capability because I have L4 gun specialization instead of L5, so be it. It is cheaper for me to give 25M isk (including fit) destroyers to some new pilot that then follows me around in PVE and PVP. Over 90% even pay me back when they have made 25M by rolling with me in L4 missions.
Anize Oramara S T R A T C O M Ragnarok. 115	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:14:00 - [27] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: "you swoop in and proudly slap you shlong in everones face saying 'hah no you are all wrong in y situation it is not!'" - No, that is not what I am doing. Is this where I put words in your mouth and put actions on your shoulders and then get the thread closed? "in eve the answer is always 'it depends on the situation'." While Exhumer V may be the optimum choice in some situation, for example if you want more ore to make stuff but can't be bothered to start another account, then exhumer V MAY BE the way to go. But that situation is only if you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support in your time in Eve. But if you are not going to mine 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support during your time in Eve then you may as well sell that plex you would have spent on Exhumer V and buy 400 000 000 isk worth of ore (I assume people buy plex and then use that to run their accounts, instead of paying to get account time, that can not be turned into isk). Because then you have that extra ore you would have gotten from investing in Exhumer V. Only you turned the plex directly into Ore instead of into training time. I have done this math precisely so people can judge when it is in their best interest to train Exhumer V, and when it is not in their best interest. I am not saying that it is never the right choice. I have time and time again said it is the right choice if you mine more than 700 hours with Hulk with Orca support on that toon. To feed it with a teaspoon: This is when the situation is right to train Exhumer V: When you will mine way more than 19 800 000 000 isk worth of ore. This is when the situation is wrong to train Exhumer V: When you will not mine more than 19 800 000 000 isk worth of ore. other factors can influence this slightly. mining semi afk for 6hours a day while you actually play eve on an actual accpunt making 10times as much isk an hour you will have your precious skill payed off using your quacky math in 4months. after that you are making a profit, as small as it may be now stop making a mountain out of a molehill for an excuse to swing your shlong in peoples face. it was funny at first, like a 3y old but its done now k? all this effort from you over this, good lord.
Kirkwood Ross Golden Profession 117	Posted - 2014.01.15 14:32:00 - [28] - Quote Do you plan on flying an exhumer in Eve for a large portion of your game time? If so, train to V. You didn't mention the extra effects from any mining implants or mining foreman links from that 3% increase.
Ronny Hugo Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc. 33	Posted - 2014.01.15 15:16:00 - [29] - Quote Kirkwood Ross wrote: You didn't mention the extra effects from any mining implants or mining foreman links from that 3% increase. I wait for someone with actual expertise of the mathematical formula that calculates mining yield to give us some insight into how that works. Until then the 700 hour estimate as given by my trip in EVEHQ seems accurate enough. I left the OP open to (hopefully) more accurate rebuttals as indicated by the last sentence, but I think the mathematicians are over in the market discussion forum. "Do you plan on flying an exhumer(...)" You are correct. As I have stated, if one plans to mine enough Exhumer V is well worth it, but "enough" is over 700 hours of effective Hulk mining. There's a time and place for exhumer V, but I think it is a very small niche.
Antillie Sa'Kan Forging Industries Silent Infinity 331	Posted - 2014.01.15 16:30:00 - [30] - Quote Ronny Hugo wrote: derp Please keep posting. This thread is the best thing I have read all day.



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