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Rusty Bullethole	Posted - 2006.03.22 21:39:00 - [1] Will Eve-Online have support for the AGEIA PhysX processor in the near future? http://physx.ageia.com/titles.html
Derelus	Posted - 2006.03.22 21:52:00 - [2] I don't see the point since EVE doesn't have alot of these fancy physics that the newer games have. --------------------
Saeris Tal'Urduar	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:00:00 - [3] I though you could use those processors to say animate thousands if not tens-of thousands of objects on the screen at once? Perfect for super massive astroid fields. Or maybe real civ traffic between stations and gates and planets. I was I just dreaming??
SengH	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:07:00 - [4] umm i think like maybe 0.01% of EVE's installed user base will have one of these. (thats being generous). What about the rest of us who dont want to have to fork out $250 USD to buy one?
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:10:00 - [5] Originally by: SengH umm i think like maybe 0.01% of EVE's installed user base will have one of these. (thats being generous). What about the rest of us who dont want to have to fork out $250 USD to buy one? These will become as standard has having a 7800GTX in the future. All new games are taking advantage of this chip and there is more than one company developing it. If you want to see one in action, download the trailers for Rise of Nations 2. It is simply mind blowing. I will have one as soon as they come out. They are not too expensive either. So in conclusion, I think many EVE players will have one of these in the near future. It's the same argument that no one thinks people who play EVE have the latest graphics cards either - You got pwnd by us too :P - Wrangler lol - Imaran
Matthew	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:23:00 - [6] The problem here is that, unlike most other games, Eve's canonical game world is run by the server, not by your computer at home. That is why eve's physics model is so basic - whatever model you run has to be able to run on the server without killing it. Otherwise your clients would render all these wonderful interactions, which then get reset with the server sync to where they would have been under the simple physics model. The best you could do is use it to improve the effects engine..as long as you don't mind having accurate gas clouds billowing around ships that bounce off each other like ping-pong balls. In terms of offloading existing client calculations to it without improving the physics model, it could probably be done, but it would be handing off more generic calculations, rather than the sort of thing the PhysX is optimised for. So the benefits of that would be questionable. All in all, would be nice, but probably time that could be better spent doing other things. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:26:00 - [7] Originally by: MysticNZ Originally by: SengH umm i think like maybe 0.01% of EVE's installed user base will have one of these. (thats being generous). What about the rest of us who dont want to have to fork out $250 USD to buy one? These will become as standard has having a 7800GTX in the future. All new games are taking advantage of this chip and there is more than one company developing it. Uh-huh. This is why Nvidia are talking about offloading some functions to the GPU aside from, well, graphics. They are ONE path. They are unlikely to be THE path. Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: MysticNZ Originally by: SengH umm i think like maybe 0.01% of EVE's installed user base will have one of these. (thats being generous). What about the rest of us who dont want to have to fork out $250 USD to buy one? These will become as standard has having a 7800GTX in the future. All new games are taking advantage of this chip and there is more than one company developing it. Uh-huh. This is why Nvidia are talking about offloading some functions to the GPU aside from, well, graphics. They are ONE path. They are unlikely to be THE path. That is experimental and ALONG way away. The GPU is only efficent for GFX atm. There is a lanuage which is ment to allow for coding on the GPU like a normal CPU, but even then, it is very limited. The GPU is different from the CPU which is totally different from these physics CPUs. Originally by: Matthew The problem here is that, unlike most other games, Eve's canonical game world is run by the server, not by your computer at home. That is why eve's physics model is so basic - whatever model you run has to be able to run on the server without killing it. Otherwise your clients would render all these wonderful interactions, which then get reset with the server sync to where they would have been under the simple physics model. The best you could do is use it to improve the effects engine..as long as you don't mind having accurate gas clouds billowing around ships that bounce off each other like ping-pong balls. In terms of offloading existing client calculations to it without improving the physics model, it could probably be done, but it would be handing off more generic calculations, rather than the sort of thing the PhysX is optimised for. So the benefits of that would be questionable. All in all, would be nice, but probably time that could be better spent doing other things. Actually, rendering is fully done by the client. All the server is doing is sending directions and cord's of where everything is. It would be up to the client to render the physics. - You got pwnd by us too :P - Wrangler lol - Imaran
Za Po	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:46:00 - [9] Edited by: Za Po on 22/03/2006 22:47:16 Originally by: MysticNZ Actually, rendering is fully done by the client. All the server is doing is sending directions and cord's of where everything is. It would be up to the client to render the physics. That's right. Let me clarify. There are two types of physics engine. Used to be the same thing, but MMORPGs and this new chip make the distinction relevant. The game's physics engine decides what happens when you bump into an object (and, for most current games, not much else). This has an actual impact on the gameplay; the physics engine decides your position and velocity. Therefore, in a MMORPG, it must be ran on the server - we can't trust the clients with anything that impacts gameplay. The graphics' physics engine deals with making explosions look good by having all sorts of bits bounce around. This has no impact on the gameplay (the bouncing bits don't damage you, they can't be recovered or targeted, and so on). It's purely eye candy. Therefore, it can be run on the client of a MMORPG. The "physics chip" we're talking about deals with the SECOND type of physics engine. AFAIK, the chips in Nvidia cards will NOT deal with gameplay physics, but only to eye candy physics (that's what Nvidia does, after all). And even if they did, they won't be used in a MMORPG since a MMORPG client doesn't do gameplay physics. So: you can expect better-looking explosions from these chips, but forget about more realistic physics. -------------------- Do you have a solution to the BM and instas problem? Test it against the bookmark requirements.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:56:00 - [10] MysticNZ, And a $250 physics card is hardly mainstream either. A graphics card maker has the potential to actually carry the market share to make non-funded non-gimick use of offloading viable. Afaik, offloading AI would be a LOT more useful than offloading physics. Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this
Shiner BockBeer	Posted - 2006.03.22 22:58:00 - [11] Edited by: Shiner BockBeer on 22/03/2006 22:59:25 Following up what Za Po said: Excellent article on nVidia's "physics" processing as it currently stands, here. (The Inquirer) As far as I can tell Aegia would be great for client side effects for Eve, gas clouds, comets and the like. Will it make a huge difference? No. But it would be pretty. Oh, and FYI, I'm a nVidia fanboi from way back so don't think I'm just harshing on the company. **edit spelling
Shiner BockBeer	Posted - 2006.03.22 23:02:00 - [12] Originally by: MysticNZ These will become as standard has having a 7800GTX in the future. I don't have a 7800GTX, are you insulting me manliness?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.22 23:05:00 - [13] Shiner BockBeer, And most devs will be perfectly happy with Nvidia's offering within a few iterations. Why? Because "real physics" is uncessary for most games, unusable on a lot of others and very very expensive to develop with. Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this
Unuthiel	Posted - 2006.03.22 23:13:00 - [14] Originally by: Saeris Tal'Urduar I though you could use those processors to say animate thousands if not tens-of thousands of objects on the screen at once? Perfect for super massive astroid fields. Or maybe real civ traffic between stations and gates and planets. I was I just dreaming?? They are designed to offload the physics calculations of particle interactions from your CPU, EVE has almost no calculations of that sort. They take very litle load if any off of your graphics card, physics calculations are now done mostly on your CPU.
gron alt	Posted - 2006.03.22 23:21:00 - [15] its been said before and why ageia doesnt see this is odd why not sell to ati or nvidia and permit them to use the designs and implement it in the same silicon as the gpu or on the same bord as the gpu. not to mention nvidia and ATI use much smaller lithography process so would be able to make the chips smaller and thus cheaper. i dont think the physX chip will be very popular, i usually have high end cpu and gpu [7900 gt and x2 3800] and i dont think i will invest in the phys chip. $250 is too much for a extra chip. next thing you know it will be $500 CPU $500 GPU and $500 PPU and we will be back to the old days with PC costing >$2500 . intergrate it into high end next generation GPUs and it will work.
fuze	Posted - 2006.03.22 23:29:00 - [16] Prices will drop after introduction and after a year it will be half. Most games year nowadays take 1 or 2 years to develop so. Eventually it will be integrated in GPU because its making games more realistic and people wanna pay for that. So in 2 years its gonna bay mainstream. ___________________________ Ethernal glory is hugely overrated.
MysticNZ	Posted - 2006.03.22 23:31:00 - [17] $250 price tag will be the inital release. It is expected to drop to $100-150 in the few months after that, like anything else. EVE is totally cpu based imo, so hey, it could have an effect on eve if the devs decided to do something. Of course make it optional like Rise of Nations 2. - You got pwnd by us too :P - Wrangler lol - Imaran
Emmerich Steiner	Posted - 2006.03.22 23:47:00 - [18] What will end up happening is that ageia chip will be embedded onto either a motherboard chipset or graphics card. I honestly belive thier non-public business model is to show a proof of concept with the chip then either sell or liscence it to graphics card manufactures (ATI/nVidia). There has been some talk about the industry shifting to a wholisitic gaming card idea, where several different technologies are put onto a single card.
GouldFish	Posted - 2006.03.23 10:56:00 - [19] With both ATi and Nvidia both saying that there GFX cards will be compatable with the update from havock and thus any GFX card that handles SM3.0 will be able to run physics of the GFX card it looks like the sperate physics chips are not going to go very far. To the OP: EVE has no need for physics simulations that require the physX chip it's all basic collitions and path finding.
Vishnej	Posted - 2006.03.23 11:02:00 - [20] The economics of a seperate add-in card won't support a physics processor. As a single-chip solution added to the latest video card, however, there's serious potential. Contribute to the Eve Wiki
Matthew	Posted - 2006.03.23 12:18:00 - [21] Originally by: Za Po The "physics chip" we're talking about deals with the SECOND type of physics engine. AFAIK, the chips in Nvidia cards will NOT deal with gameplay physics, but only to eye candy physics (that's what Nvidia does, after all). That's wrong - it is capable of, and in games where the game world is simulated on the client does, do both types. Take a look at some of the demos for the PhysX. There's one with a whole pile of pipes collapsing and rolling round the place. That isn't just fancy visual effects, if one of those things hit you, it would smack you around too - and you need the complex physics calculations done in order to know where those objects are in the game world. In fact, that's the whole point of the physics processor. Purely graphical effects can already be done perfectly well within existing GPU's, what PhysX adds is the ability to have those effects interact properly with everything else in the game world. Take an explosion, or a gas cloud. At the moment they look farily good, but they are a largely static effect. The presence of objects within them serves to occlude the effect, but it doesn't change the nature of the effect that's seen. One of the demo videos is about a flamethrower. At the moment if you fire a flamethrower at a wall in a game, the flames get to the wall, then just stop. With PhysX, the effects become part of the game world physics, which allows for the flames to flow out along the walls, and even back-blasting into you if you're too close. You are of course correct in stating that only the second type could be used in am MMORPG setting, but the chips themselves are capable of doing both, and their main contribution is in bringing what are currently purely visual effects into the full physics model of the game. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Winterblink	Posted - 2006.03.23 13:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Maya Rkell Afaik, offloading AI would be a LOT more useful than offloading physics. Not in EVE. Ever used drones? :) Warp Drive Active \| Nature Vraie
Steven Dynahir	Posted - 2006.03.23 13:37:00 - [23] nVidia Physics, carp Ageia Physics, good EVE, no (well technically those explosions eye candy could use physics, but only for eye candy). --- Sell orders
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.03.23 13:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Maya Rkell Afaik, offloading AI would be a LOT more useful than offloading physics. Not in EVE. Ever used drones? :) If they ever fix Drone AI, I fully expect them to go Rampant :P Lifewire> 8000 m/s, even battleships can do this
Tousaka Langley	Posted - 2006.03.23 14:02:00 - [25] The Physics cards are damned nice. Now I just can't wait for Turbulent flow cards :P
Viktor Fyretracker	Posted - 2006.03.23 14:36:00 - [26] only thing a solid physics engine could really offer EVE is the ability to use astroid fields tacticaly, going behind a huge ass veldspar would block all fire for example.
babyblue	Posted - 2006.03.23 14:56:00 - [27] Edited by: babyblue on 23/03/2006 14:56:16 There is nothing to stop the server from using it's Graphics Card to do the physics for the players, but probably not much point in having this card on the client, unless it's to play Single Player FPS. Graphics card technology is highly parallel and very well suited to certain kinds of calculation, perhaps capable of coming up with 16 results at once - and with PCI-E, the read-back isn't too painful for the CPU when it's done either. I dare say a brave programmer could come up with something useful. It's probably easier to keep it all running on the server CPU though, given that actual "physics" is probably a little Python Scriptlet that says something like: IF HitBySomething THEN RotateAround_Aimlessly_In_Some_Random_Way_Completely_Unrelated_To_The_Direction_Of_Impact END IF
Warchild Lightningblade	Posted - 2006.03.23 19:01:00 - [28] Eve could most definately take advantage of a physics engine. Imagine if you will being able to target another ships guns or armor or engines (after getting past the shields of course) and the target ship showing the damage done in the correct location of the ships model (guns destroyed, engine on fire, dents in the armor). But this will never happen as the game graphics engine would need to be completely recoded. The advantages they would reap from doing so would never outweight the expense in time CCP would need to devote to an undertaking such as this. Do you work for Aegia and are you going around to every game site to ask this?
Eternal Fury	Posted - 2006.03.23 20:52:00 - [29] You know. I remember when people scoffed at the idea of PAYING for a seperate sound card when the PC Speaker was more then adequate. things are revolutionary until it's common. Then it's... Well.. Common. The ageia Phsics engine has already been incorporated into many games. The Ageia Physics chips have already been made, and are just waiting to be dropped onto the board that companies like BFG and ASUS are building. these cards will be our long before ATI or nVidia has their version out. The other thing to remember is these cards will be just like normal videocards in that they will have multiple pricepoints depending on the performance you want. Want a budget one? I bet within a year we'll see a basic version of this chip incorporated into motherboards with onboard video. You'll see a sub 100$ card, one at 150, at 200, 250, 300 and so on. Just like videocard priceing. you get the one that fits your wallet and performance needs. There are quite a few games out there that already incorprate the software version of this and will most likely see update patches to support the hardware one within a few months. now, as it if we'll ever see it in THIS game. Dunno. Gravity isnt' a big deal atm. I'm not to up on the programing end of this. but would it help with all the new features that the devs say are comeing in their Graphics update? The update will most likely come AFTER the ageia cards are on the market. BFG is already advertiseing them, and i'm sure Asus will be soon too. BFG tends to be fairly agressive as a company, so I can see these being advertised a lot. I mean, it's a whole new segment to get into. Hell, Dell is selling a MONSTER comptuer rig with these cards ALREADY! - - "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken.
MrPops	Posted - 2006.03.23 22:11:00 - [30] Edited by: MrPops on 23/03/2006 22:13:12 I remember when 3dfx introduced its first 3d graphics accelerator. Some of you, I'm sure, remember what the Voodoo card did for Quake. The rest is history. On the other hand, I do recall the *****ing and moaning about having to buy a separate video accelerator. A lot of games included a software renderer for a while, which I thought was retarded, but you would not be caught dead without a graphic accelerator today. Heck, even Windows Vista will require one. Same thing is going to happen with the physics card. People are already asking, why will EVE need one? Well, the only limit is the imagination of the developers. How about a planet that has real gravity effects based on it's mass that can act like a trap pulling ships and crashing them down to its surface. How about black holes that can only be escaped using tech5 jovian mwd's The technology is new and exciting. You will see how things will move very rapidly and before you know it, all of us will have some form of physics acceleration. Truly, none of us really knows what the future will hold or how developers will put the technology to use. I do hope we get to play some kickass games! I caution people to refrain from making any definitive statements because it will come and haunt them. I'm one to revisit old threads and I will be the first one to say I told you so.

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