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Blydchyld
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:57:00 -
[1]
Any form of communication in support of national objectives designed to influence the opinions, emotions, attitudes, or behavior of any group in order to benefit the sponsor, either directly or indirectly.
In EvE we have 3 methods of PvP.
Killing Each Other.
Price Wars.
Forum Wars.
An alliance can loose 75% of its combat forces and score a massive defeat, an alliance can attack another, cause huge amounts of damage to their Enemys but come no where near defeating them an alliance can even take a Outpost from another at the cost of blood.
To me these are the facts, the important things. However the official word of the action is posted here to the EvE-Online Forums, Alliances win and loose wars withour rounds being fired or without the mobilisation of a fleet.
I read these forums a fair bit, i notice there are masters of the written word along the likes of Dark Shirkari with his love of little blue robots and DBpreacher with his word carrying the weight of BoB, I have much respect for these guys and how they can join a thread make a comment and re-direct the entire topic.
Firstly, i ask you, the community of EvE for your opinion on Forum Warfare, those warriors (keep it nice, or dont bother posting) and to answer one simple question, Why are the EvE-O forums such a important part of the game.
Please do not choose this thread to add your trolling and flames too, im sure you can find some political thread to spam on.
I LIKE ARK!
The above post is my post and does not represent the views of any entity, If my views have upset you PM me |
SengH
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Posted - 2006.03.23 19:59:00 -
[2]
Edited by: SengH on 23/03/2006 20:00:40
IMHO the entire .5. vs PA/NBSI/F-E war was sparked by their members actions on EO forums... or at least played a big part in it.
thats just my opinion as a grunt.
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Dirtball
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:06:00 -
[3]
it's all about moral, which can be influenced in game or out.
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Ripline
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:11:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Blydchyld
Why are the EvE-O forums such a important part of the game.
If you start to enumerate the methods of one-to-many communications extending outside your alliance it should be apparent enough.
News, spin, political weather reports (etc). Generally making your activities known. There aren't that many viable methods for doing so aside forums.
That said, forums are one thing and reality on the ground another. No amount of smacktalk out here is going to , say, change the ownership of some strategic station/outpost.
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Goberth Ludwig
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:15:00 -
[5]
Its because eve is a game so people consider more important to uphold their honour / not lose their face / not be considered losers than sparing a few isk/ships.
Hence propaganda is so important cuz nobody want to be considered the laughing stock of eve.
- Gob
(my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p) |
Acwron
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:32:00 -
[6]
Well though it might work on alliances without experience it doesn't work with any of the alliances with a lot of veteran players because the know the forum tactics, spinners etc. The just smile about most postings because they are either misinformed (90% of the normal alliance member posts) or so full of bull**** it's not worth reading trough it.
e.g. if DBp would say that the sky is blue I would check it out first hand before believing it.
I personnally find it more interesting if they more laid back, contributing posters resort to smack and propagenda. Tells much about how the fell in that situation. I always smile to myself when they feel the need to bull**** the public while they and the other involved party knows that it was quite different.
Most sensible threads are useless after page 2 anyway since some alliance forumwarrior hord put about 30 one line posts in it.
PS: but sometimes one gets the impression that some of the propagenda guys acctually believe what they are saying and thats scary :)
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Blacklight
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:35:00 -
[7]
Can't really comment, we don't do propaganda, we just point it out when people suck.
Eve Blacklight Style
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FowlPlayChiken
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:37:00 -
[8]
bawk!
Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler |
Goberth Ludwig
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:37:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Goberth Ludwig on 23/03/2006 20:38:23
Originally by: Acwron
Well though it might work on alliances without experience it doesn't work with any of the alliances with a lot of veteran players because the know the forum tactics, spinners etc. The just smile about most postings because they are either misinformed (90% of the normal alliance member posts) or so full of bull**** it's not worth reading trough it.
wtf r u talking about m8 the number one reason you guys came for ASCN back in december was because of eve-o posts:
- 1 ascn official annoucnement about esoteria
- 1 post about the kill loss ratio up north
edit: not saying it was wrong, just that even most experienced alliances get mightly p*ssed about certain type of eve-o posts and that can mean war.
- Gob
(my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p) |
Sarion Stormweaver
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:39:00 -
[10]
War doesn't brake an alliance. Propaganda does!. A campaign can take 6-7 times longer without propaganda.
It's like a bank. Take 10 persons with media power. They start spreading rumors in media that X Bank is in trouble. Soon people will start withdrawing money from the bank... and they tell other people that they've seen so many others withdrawing money from the bank, and then it's the domino effect, and NOW the bank IS in trouble :P. Note that theese 10 persons must have high charisma, be very persuasive and logical in their assertions.
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Aceformat
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:40:00 -
[11]
Propoganda as a tool, if worded well and to the point, with no lies but facts and figures can and is a very very good way of demoralising the enemy, changing people around to your way of thinking and of course boosts your corp/alliance/allies also.
I've used propoganda to get my way a few times, but not in the publics eyeline (Yet) and have had good results if it's done right and bad results if I didn't think it through first.
Timing I find is another key point in propoganda also, if you're off by even an hour it can work against you!
I know alot of "Forum Warriors" who can change a fight/war or even the thread to go along their way of thinking. Also there are those who should not post at all, Orc A for example, not picking on this guy for any reason in particular, but hell he shouldn't even be a diplomat, if you look at his current track record you will understand why I chose him as a "Worse case scenario".
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Acwron
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
Edited by: Goberth Ludwig on 23/03/2006 20:38:23
Originally by: Acwron
Well though it might work on alliances without experience it doesn't work with any of the alliances with a lot of veteran players because the know the forum tactics, spinners etc. The just smile about most postings because they are either misinformed (90% of the normal alliance member posts) or so full of bull**** it's not worth reading trough it.
wtf r u talking about m8 the number one reason you guys came for ASCN back in december was because of eve-o posts:
- 1 ascn official annoucnement about esoteria
- 1 post about the kill loss ratio up north
edit: not saying it was wrong, just that even most experienced alliances get mightly p*ssed about certain type of eve-o posts and that can mean war.
the opening post was about how the forums effect your moral in a negative way. And ingame actions normally weigh higher anyway.
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Wren Cassin
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:44:00 -
[13]
Hello.
For me the forums are like watching the daily world news, or listening the BBC broadcast at midnight. You don't get the whole story or even the truth sometimes. But it ignites your spirit and makes you wonder. This wonder gives you cause to go seeking, in this seeking you may find the truth.
That truth may come in many different forms. I would hope that careful investigation of these "truths" might lead you to boatloads of success, through market trading, territoy take-over, personal PvP success, cohesive group battle tactics, or maybe, just maybe -- personal enjoyment of the roleplaying environment that EvE can become, if you let it.
I'm glad that the forums are here. I aspire to fly out to 0.0 space with my cameras rolling...snagging up bits and pieces of recent battles...and creating film footage of the carnage. On the other hand, I'm more than satisfied to hang out in Oursulaert, handing out snacks to the new people, so full of questions. 
Propoganda or no. Truth or tales. For me the fact is that it makes the people seem more real. My actions seem more important. The EvE universe seem less threatening and more intense, all at the same time.
I hope there are others who share my passion for the subtle things said in forums, that I think are EvE news.
--Wren
 CEO Solar Miners and Construction
 Proud Member of the Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Blydchyld
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Posted - 2006.03.23 20:58:00 -
[14]
Originally by: FowlPlayChiken
bawk!
Bawk! Brother.
ever the gun for hire eh?
I LIKE ARK!
The above post is my post and does not represent the views of any entity, If my views have upset you PM me |
Goberth Ludwig
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Acwron
And ingame actions normally weigh higher anyway.
depends
often ingame actions can be "fixed" or "turn critical" after they generate a forum post
- Gob
(my nubie attempt at a forum sig, bare with me plz :p) |
ParMizaN
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:09:00 -
[16]
In a game of reputation and morale, propaganda is ammunition.
Phenomena of ironies, cast the litany aside
How intelligible, blessed be the forgetful |
Rexthor Hammerfists
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:11:00 -
[17]
i dont think propaganda can kill an alliance, it can only fasten it up.
if the alliance members are happy with thweir situation, means can do what they like (kill, npc or mine) then they dont rlly give a **** bout propaganda then when they have alrdy their own doubts.
an original opinion brought by rexthor in less then 3mins ;)
-
Purple Conquered The World, We the Universe.
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Carth Jared
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: ParMizaN
In a game of reputation and morale, propaganda is ammunition.
How much did you drink to reach such glorious insight ;P
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Sarion Stormweaver
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:14:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Sarion Stormweaver on 23/03/2006 21:15:03
1 Part Firepower + 4 Parts 'quality propaganda' kills an alliance a lot faster then 5 Parts Firepower.
IMHO anyway.
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Acwron
We.g. if DBp would say that the sky is blue I would check
it out first hand before believing it.
Yeah and that's the whole point... at least you would go and check instead of keeping your head stuck in the sand like the people who pretend that their alliance isn't getting it's ass whupped.
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (PSCAL6) Proficient Short Tanto
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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ParMizaN
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Carth Jared
Originally by: ParMizaN
In a game of reputation and morale, propaganda is ammunition.
How much did you drink to reach such glorious insight ;P
A halfbottle of bleach.
Phenomena of ironies, cast the litany aside
How intelligible, blessed be the forgetful |
Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2006.03.23 21:49:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
...nobody wants to be considered the laughing stock of eve.
Ah, 'tis my dream to one day achieve such a distinction!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
One noob. One corp. One complete waste of 1.6 million isk. |
Blazde
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:01:00 -
[23]
It was often said that CFS and co were incited to revolt against FA by various posts on these forums especially from CA. If that's true it's a great example of propoganda having a profound effect on ingame events.
I've sometimes wondered if EVE would be better with some officially generated kill stats, or the ladder rankings CCP used to talk about. We'd get a much clearer picuture of who was winning and losing (although the facts would still be open to interpretation). But in real life warfare there are no 'official' kill stats, only those generated in an inaccurate, biased or very costly way, which is exactly what we have in EVE atm and it leaves the door wide open for propoganda to play a huge part in any war. Another aspect of EVE's amazing social realism.
Personally I'd like to see more propoganda, the majority of EVE's wars are never mentioned on this forum.
So perhaps the forum could be enhanced by for example giving some greater prominence to posts made by CEOs/directors or executors of alliances (or some limited number of spokepersons designated by the alliance exectutor), or by splitting it into regions to encourage more discussion of localised wars and politics.
_
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theblaze
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:02:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Montague Zooma
Originally by: Goberth Ludwig
...nobody wants to be considered the laughing stock of eve.
Ah, 'tis my dream to one day achieve such a distinction!
I think Ginger Magician already beat you to it, unfortunately.
----------
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Boonaki
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:11:00 -
[25]
I think the eve-o forums enable communication between alliances other the designated diplomats. Those that have an opinion can post freely (depending on the alliance) and makes the game more interesting. The known forum personalities exist because they entertain us, it's just part of the game.
Propaganda has its place in the game, if an alliance is getting it's ass handed to it in game and out of game, it can take some of the fun out of the game and it may instill doubts in said alliance, that could lead to people leaving that alliance it ends up taking the fun out of the game. What fun is logging in, watching local chat as your outnumbered a 100 to 1 camped into the station for a month straight?
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Seleene
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: FowlPlayChiken
bawk!
I fully support this as the Official MC Statement for this thread.
-
Who is the MC? Watch! |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:53:00 -
[27]
Jade Constantine did propaganda
I havent seen a decent forum post here for years
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Kaleeb
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:58:00 -
[28]
Parm i want your babies
 |
Shin Ra
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Posted - 2006.03.23 22:58:00 -
[29]
They are so important as they are the primary way of building up a reputation which is one of the really cool things about eve.
When you jump into local and someone shouts "omg, Its Shin Ra, you a god", you must be doing something right. Likewise, "omg its BE, wts: wcs bpo" is all reputation. Some people more than others have this down to a fine art.
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Cmd Woodlouse
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Posted - 2006.03.23 23:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nafri
Jade Constantine did propaganda
I havent seen a decent forum post here for years
yupp. jade constantine, now THAT was a weapon on galnet. the rest is obvious, boring and repeating all the time tbh...
--------------------------------
I am G and i am IRON - as we all are brothers in arms and times of need. |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.23 23:05:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
Originally by: Nafri
Jade Constantine did propaganda
I havent seen a decent forum post here for years
yupp. jade constantine, now THAT was a weapon on galnet. the rest is obvious, boring and repeating all the time tbh...
She gave me always a headache, and the feeling that if I dont agree with her, I mist be a fool 
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Liet Traep
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Posted - 2006.03.23 23:19:00 -
[32]
Propagan da wins wars in eve. I'd say that Bob and .5 use it most often and well. Anytiome something is posted negatively about Bob there are legions of Bob and their fans to show up and shout it down. Same with .5 Bob has also been on the forums frequently to tell a foe how their time is over to try and break their morale.
.5 uses propaganda to reward reward or punish. They shout down and flame their enemies and make very nice posts about alliances who do what they wish. Go back and check old posts about how they flamed xetic during the wars but once ASCN was formed and set positive standings with them all the posts were very warm and fuzzy. Same with F-E. Look at the negative posts regarding NBSI and PA during the recent wars. Lots of flame during the wars. Once NBSI ended the empire war and left for Syndicate the posts were very positive, almost as a reward to NBSI. (Not that NBSI cares what .5 thinks of them. :) Positive reinforcement at it's best.
I personally dislike Bob and .5 so take what I say with a grain of salt. However both alliances use the forums very well indeed and I acknowledge their skill.
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Professor McFly
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Posted - 2006.03.24 00:24:00 -
[33]
It's not only propaganda, it's how influential players behave and speak on the forum. Prime example is the Serenity Steel thread above, you can see a lot of peoples' opinions of ISS as an alliance changing as a result of a few posts (mine included). The same can be said for many alliances in the past, imo.
__________________
Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk
mods - pwning sigs since 1943 |
Raid
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Posted - 2006.03.24 03:53:00 -
[34]
psychological warfare
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Gungankllr
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Posted - 2006.03.24 09:03:00 -
[35]
I believe forums are both a bane and a blessing in our game.
For example, If BoB makes a statement that you're beaten, I can pretty safely assume that they aren't lying, because as I was in BNC for a time, I have seen it first hand, more than once.
On the other hand, take Burn Eden for example. They make grandiose statements on who they are going to kill, and who they have killed / brought to their knees... But in all honesty they say quite a bit on the forums, but don't in reality do a whole lot.
(BE vs. BLUE, for instance.)
So to answer your original qustion, the forums are what makes the game so unique.
Wars are begun and lost over statements made on the forums.
BoB are infamous for what they do in space, which if you sit back and think about it, they've done a hell of a lot.
BE are infamous for boasting to do things in space, then never following through before moving on to something else.
Mo0 became infamous because of the forums. Not because of their official statements or actions, but because of the general populace posting about their actions.
Without the forums, this game wouldn't be as addictive as it is.
Everything on the forums (Except mindless spam) furthers the game just a little.
I've learned who hired merc corps against us from a main accidentally posting with their alt.
I've learned about upcoming attacks in our regions from buy orders or recruiting posts I've seen on the forums.
The forums are a game all in themselves.
I don't post that much, because quite frankly, I'm not really an important person in my alliance.
But people do remember who I am from my posts. 
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.03.24 09:12:00 -
[36]
That's because of that thing in your sig m8, don't be thinking yourself big now hear ya
Forum propaganda is teh win.
I absolutely loved the GNW for it. For the way in which argumenting on these forums can play a role in decisions made by readers ingame.
But tbh, Like DBP says. Alot of it is about forcing people to see what is happening to them. We saw in the GNW that PA was very good at denying internally that they kept getting their behinds kicked ingame. That kept morale artifiially high, and the forum posts of the likes oj Jade, SirMolle and DBP were the counterweight.
Other then that, see Blacklights comment.
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Darcuese
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Posted - 2006.03.24 09:40:00 -
[37]
Forum propaganda have a big impact on conflict development on field.
Reason is quite simple, tbh.
Any alliance and corp has its own leaders and those that follow the leadership.
Belief that "soldiers" have in their own leaders dictate the output of forum propaganda.
If ppl are not much active and dont communicate among themself , the info they pick on forums can put some sceptic thoughts in to their mind. So they will be less and less active in alliance ops....cause they dont have complete trust in their leaders and at the same time enemy posts on forums do have some background and were written in very clever way.
So , its all come to....DO you believe your CEO's , or, are you a sceptic?
More sceptics in corps....more danger to brake down.
DEAD or ALIVE we allways have some fun. DO YOU?? |
Gungankllr
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Posted - 2006.03.24 09:57:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
That's because of that thing in your sig m8, don't be thinking yourself big now hear ya
I do get called primary a lot, even if I'm in a retarded ship. 
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Fi T'Zeh
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Posted - 2006.03.24 10:26:00 -
[39]
Binks must die
....
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Fred0
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Posted - 2006.03.24 10:34:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Fred0 on 24/03/2006 10:35:21
Even though forum propaganda can have an impact I still think it's vastly outscored by all the 1on1 convo's and meetings that decides policy and common courses of action.
Taking the GNW for example. What won it and swung it back and forth a number of times was the alliances that were created and destroyed in various backrooms. Not what Molle, Jade or anyone else posted on the forums.
Forums are nigh on impossible to control even if certain people are good at getting the upper hand on them but their logic dictates counter weights automatically get into action. Imho forums are abit overrated.
EDIT: Fair point Darceuse. When a group becomes very big and not cohesive, not communicating much and so on then it can have a greater impact I guess.
---
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Entilzah Valen
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Posted - 2006.03.24 10:45:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
Binks must die
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Sylic
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:39:00 -
[42]
I rarely read the forums myself but is an effective tool in making one corps mistakes look like an alliance folly..
A good example of this ONE tribal souls corp loose 6-7 freighter (i cant remember the numbers).
So when this was posted it was made to look like the alliance as a whole lost these freighters.
However it was an embarasment to the whole.
Is why i dont read these to often cause 50/50 chance the whole story isnt there or it gets flamed so much you cant make heads or tails of what did happen.
Just my thought cause it is DT and i cant go to sleep..
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pershphanie
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Posted - 2006.03.24 11:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: FowlPlayChiken
bawk!
bawwwwwwk!
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Fi T'Zeh
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Posted - 2006.03.24 12:03:00 -
[44]
The right to Bawwwk is something that must be earned. Prove to me you are worthy by telling me the first game that the Chiken Confederation played online.
Oh, and you get a cookie, no asking GuaRRand, that's cheating.
/Signed Fitz, former Chiken.
....
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Gungankllr
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Posted - 2006.03.24 12:05:00 -
[45]
moin.
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2006.03.24 12:33:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
Originally by: Nafri
Jade Constantine did propaganda
I havent seen a decent forum post here for years
yupp. jade constantine, now THAT was a weapon on galnet. the rest is obvious, boring and repeating all the time tbh...
Gotta agree with that, Jades posts (whether you believed them or not) were at least written so they were fun to read. The garbage posted here these days doesn't even come close.
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Blydchyld
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Posted - 2006.03.24 12:54:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
The right to Bawwwk is something that must be earned. Prove to me you are worthy by telling me the first game that the Chiken Confederation played online.
Oh, and you get a cookie, no asking GuaRRand, that's cheating.
/Signed Fitz, former Chiken.
You mean infinitychiken and T.A (total annihilation).
When i say bawk, i say bawk from a 5 year long membership!
I LIKE ARK!
The above post is my post and does not represent the views of any entity, If my views have upset you PM me |
Garia666
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Posted - 2006.03.24 13:08:00 -
[48]
Ppl talk to much. There is only one effect wich can be get out of this.
Disrespect..
Most ppl take things 2 personal . or by talking make enemy`s.
If we would talk less respect your NME more and fight for your right..
Things would be allot more peacefull
ADGA Website |
K Shara
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Posted - 2006.03.24 13:42:00 -
[49]
Propaganda can sap the moral of your enemy, they wont take part in a battle because they feel they have already lost. Or if they do take part they will be ready to run feeling that the cause is already lost and the battle decided.
It can incite arguments in your enemies, a divided enemy is a week enemy.
however, if your propaganda is too good your enemies just sit in station and rotate in their hangers
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Stradivarious
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Posted - 2006.03.24 14:54:00 -
[50]
Forum warfare.... well it both has its place and doesn't imo... I used to be much more active posting and eventually realized there was truely no point to it. I just sit back and laugh for the most part now :) K/D ratio > forum warfare imo, now if only I had more time for solo pvp like I used to :/ RL interfering too much however...
Morale is indeed a factor in alliance warfare, nothing like logging in knowing that chances are you are going to spend hours camping a gate for absolutely no gain, or even be camped inside a station. Makes it so theres no point to even load eve after a couple days of it, at least for those that can't cope with it... Eventually half the alliance/corp just doesn't log in...
If you let yourself get affected easily by what others say and think, the forum warriors have won, without having to fire a shot or even be able to play eve... best example of how to deal with it is in Bozlin's(former CFI, now a member of Shiva Systems) signiture, specifically the modified Sir Molle sig
I like to think of myself as the chlorine in the gene pool.
Click the sig for the VC KB |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.03.24 14:56:00 -
[51]
Wars are fought ingame, but wars are won on the EVE-o Forums, a corps/alliance's Private forums, and to a lesser extend local channel.
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2006.03.24 17:03:00 -
[52]
1 good forum warrior is worth 10 good combat pilots (at least in my opinion) in any conflict. It's a shame the art of forum war has been turned into generic flame wars over the last year or so. I mourn the loss of the warriors that have fallen to the banstick or that horrible disease known as RL.
Oz, forum warrior in training 
----------------------
I have a blog |
Hardin
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Posted - 2006.03.24 17:30:00 -
[53]
AMARR VICTOR
---------------------------------
Smiting pirates and terrorists since Sept 2003
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2006.03.24 17:44:00 -
[54]
Watch the scene with Adlai Stevenson and the Soviet ambassador when he presents the missile pictures in Cuba in the film Thirteen Days to understand the effect of words on conflict.
President
Huzzah Federation
Be all you can be, join the Huzzah Armed Forces today! |
Fi T'Zeh
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Posted - 2006.03.24 17:54:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Blydchyld
Edited by: Blydchyld on 24/03/2006 13:30:07
Originally by: Fi T'Zeh
The right to Bawwwk is something that must be earned. Prove to me you are worthy by telling me the first game that the Chiken Confederation played online.
Oh, and you get a cookie, no asking GuaRRand, that's cheating.
/Signed Fitz, former Chiken.
You mean infinitychiken and T.A (total annihilation).
When i say bawk, i say bawk from a 5 year long membership!
(Edit: just read about peekAboochiken, bad news indeed :( )
cookie for you, although your post about peeks worries me.
/StonedChiken runs off to read the CC forums.
....
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Leno
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Posted - 2006.03.24 18:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Dirtball
it's all about moral, which can be influenced in game or out.
omg i get to QFT something!
QFT
---------------
RIP - Smoske, My Friend
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Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2006.03.24 18:32:00 -
[57]
The days of grand propaganda swinging the morale and resolve of large numbers of pilots is unfortunately gone. Why? Because when eve was young, individuals were dealing with an underdeveloped communication network.
Back in the day, you spoke with the same people in your corp, a few from your alliance channel, and you got your galactic news from THIS FORUM.
Today, all the vets know (and mostly respect) each other. People tell the truth in private convos with an old comrade regardless if they were once enemies or not.
Propaganda wars between the powerful veterans in EVE is no longer an effective tool.
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S3VYN
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Posted - 2006.03.25 05:05:00 -
[58]
Forum wars require a special sort of personality to maintain properly. Any major entity who completely denies the power of these forums (read: the single communication network the entire community shares) denies themselves the full power of the available tools to wage war and expand their realm of influence. If there are three tools to winning a war (as the OP stated) then denying yourself the use of one requires that you be prolific in the other two, almost to the point of impossibility.
I agree with a previous poster, however. When I was the mouthpiece for FIX things that were said in private very commonly did not reflect what existed or was said on these boards. It is a daily struggle and there is NO safety net. If you screw up on these boards you might as well create a new character.
I offer two examples...
FA - Very limited forum presence which (I believe) eventually led to their perceptual demise WELL before their actual demise.
Orc A - Quite the opposite presence, but achieved the same eventual result.
It's never about morale (note the proper spelling ;)), it's about perception. Perception is, after all, reality in a video game. Those who win wars write history and those who control perception win wars.
BTW - Great thread.
------------------------------------- //
The views expressed by this poster are not the views of the poster's corporation, alliance, planet or television network... but they should be. |
pershphanie
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Posted - 2006.03.25 07:40:00 -
[59]
Edited by: pershphanie on 25/03/2006 07:41:36
Originally by: Halseth Durn
The days of grand propaganda swinging the morale and resolve of large numbers of pilots is unfortunately gone. Why? Because when eve was young, individuals were dealing with an underdeveloped communication network.
Back in the day, you spoke with the same people in your corp, a few from your alliance channel, and you got your galactic news from THIS FORUM.
Today, all the vets know (and mostly respect) each other. People tell the truth in private convos with an old comrade regardless if they were once enemies or not.
Propaganda wars between the powerful veterans in EVE is no longer an effective tool.
I completly disagree. Propaghanda is alive and well in eve. Morale is still 80% of every war. Morale is created and lost on these forums. Due to several changes to eve battles are much more than who ended up with the most kills at the end of a fight. There now can be many objectives to a battle. Who wins or loses is very much up to interpretation in many cases. How those battle outcomes are interpreted dictates your alliances morale. There is still no better way to kill an alliance than screaming over and over again "xxx alliance is dead". That may be lame, but its true.
Even quality alliances with 75% vets who have been in 0.0 eve for 2 years have 25% casual players who can still have very good skill points. If you can get that 25% to believe their alliance is getting their asses kicked they may go do missions, not log on, etc. If your alliances 100ship fleet gets decreased to a 75 ship fleet that can very easily make the difference between you fighting and sitting at a ss all day. This is when the 'internal problems' start and you start to hear 'xxx is dead' on these forums. This is how decay begins.
The most retarded part of all of this is that alot of times it is external parties who have really no clue in what is going on in a situation can play the biggest factor. For example lets say alliance 1 is fighting alliance 2. Its obvious that those two parties are going to have bad things to say about each other. However when alliances 3,4,5 who are neutral in the conflict get in on a thread saying 'alliance 1 is dead' even though they make have no clue what is going on they come off as more credible because they are 'neutral' in the situation. As lame as that may sound I've found it to be true.
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Dukath
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Posted - 2006.03.25 08:34:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Blydchyld
Any form of communication in support of national objectives designed to influence the opinions, emotions, attitudes, or behavior of any group in order to benefit the sponsor, either directly or indirectly.
In EvE we have 3 methods of PvP.
Killing Each Other.
Price Wars.
Forum Wars.
An alliance can loose 75% of its combat forces and score a massive defeat, an alliance can attack another, cause huge amounts of damage to their Enemys but come no where near defeating them an alliance can even take a Outpost from another at the cost of blood.
To me these are the facts, the important things. However the official word of the action is posted here to the EvE-Online Forums, Alliances win and loose wars withour rounds being fired or without the mobilisation of a fleet.
I read these forums a fair bit, i notice there are masters of the written word along the likes of Dark Shirkari with his love of little blue robots and DBpreacher with his word carrying the weight of BoB, I have much respect for these guys and how they can join a thread make a comment and re-direct the entire topic.
Firstly, i ask you, the community of EvE for your opinion on Forum Warfare, those warriors (keep it nice, or dont bother posting) and to answer one simple question, Why are the EvE-O forums such a important part of the game.
Please do not choose this thread to add your trolling and flames too, im sure you can find some political thread to spam on.
The main reason for 'forum wars' lies in the impossibility to finish off someone. NPC stations in 0.0, non persistant ships give one side complete immunity from the other side. This leads the losing team often to rely on boredom tactics than on trying to defend their space.
The flamefest erupt simply out of pure frustration, you know you are better, you know they can't hurt you but simply because of a game mechanic you can't make them leave your space, you can't invade their space, push them back to empire.
Once NPC stations either become conquerable or would implement faction standings (docking fees, docking rights based on standings etc) and persistant ships finally get added to the game (you can safely log off at a POS, you can build stations,... there is no reason fro ships not to remain in space), pods can still disappear for all i care though.
Once alliances have a real way to control their space the flaming and forums wars will die out a bit (not completely though), but at least the propaganda will be more checkable. (an alliance can really be pushed back to empire then, right now they just dock and log when the space owners enter system and log back in as soon as they leave)
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Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.03.25 09:14:00 -
[61]
gate sentries will never fully make it into the game not without some sort of covert ops cloak and warps device for all ships
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Halseth Durn
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Posted - 2006.03.25 18:12:00 -
[62]
Originally by: pershphanie
Edited by: pershphanie on 25/03/2006 07:41:36
Originally by: Halseth Durn
The days of grand propaganda swinging the morale and resolve of large numbers of pilots is unfortunately gone. Why? Because when eve was young, individuals were dealing with an underdeveloped communication network.
Back in the day, you spoke with the same people in your corp, a few from your alliance channel, and you got your galactic news from THIS FORUM.
Today, all the vets know (and mostly respect) each other. People tell the truth in private convos with an old comrade regardless if they were once enemies or not.
Propaganda wars between the powerful veterans in EVE is no longer an effective tool.
I completly disagree. Propaghanda is alive and well in eve. Morale is still 80% of every war. Morale is created and lost on these forums. Due to several changes to eve battles are much more than who ended up with the most kills at the end of a fight. There now can be many objectives to a battle. Who wins or loses is very much up to interpretation in many cases. How those battle outcomes are interpreted dictates your alliances morale. There is still no better way to kill an alliance than screaming over and over again "xxx alliance is dead". That may be lame, but its true.
Even quality alliances with 75% vets who have been in 0.0 eve for 2 years have 25% casual players who can still have very good skill points. If you can get that 25% to believe their alliance is getting their asses kicked they may go do missions, not log on, etc. If your alliances 100ship fleet gets decreased to a 75 ship fleet that can very easily make the difference between you fighting and sitting at a ss all day. This is when the 'internal problems' start and you start to hear 'xxx is dead' on these forums. This is how decay begins.
The most retarded part of all of this is that alot of times it is external parties who have really no clue in what is going on in a situation can play the biggest factor. For example lets say alliance 1 is fighting alliance 2. Its obvious that those two parties are going to have bad things to say about each other. However when alliances 3,4,5 who are neutral in the conflict get in on a thread saying 'alliance 1 is dead' even though they make have no clue what is going on they come off as more credible because they are 'neutral' in the situation. As lame as that may sound I've found it to be true.
Good points Persh. I sometimes forget that there are extremely valuable players who dont have the contacts or a "forum bull-$hit detector" that comes with experience.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.03.25 19:44:00 -
[63]
"Why are the EvE-O forums such a important part of the game."
They give insight into morale level/way of thinking of your 'average' enemy (active player somewhere in mid-level of enemy command structure) which is something very difficult to obtain otherwise ... and shouldn't be confused with the 'official' propaganda.
Now, what these people think and say can be silly and embarassing sometimes, but as long as the leaders are willing to take this risk ... if the image formed overall from posts of your average alliance members shows (some) intelligence, determination, and justified high spirits (as opposed to the far more frequent wishful thinking with no ground in game reality) ... and it appears genuine to boot, then it can have large effect on the people on receiving end of such attitude -- that is both enemies, and the allies. Sort of reality check, if you will. Verification of what you guess they may feel like.
It's why i think alliances who have the "internal policy" and prohibit their members from posting ... they're doing themselves a disservice. Because it just effectively says "we don't trust our own members, both in their ability to appear intelligent in public, and in their faith in us and in how our alliance is doing overall". And that's about worst signal you can send both to your own organization and the others outside...
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Lucian Alucard
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Posted - 2006.03.25 21:42:00 -
[64]
I think the thing is that there are no more great propagandists anymore,when Jade was silenced all the great propaganda ceased,thats not saying he was the sole propagandist its just saying he was drawn,quartered and made an example of.
There will be no great compelling wars fighting betwix nations 'til a brave few step forward to fill jades large shoes. Every month the old gaurd wither aways and soon there will be to few of us left who remember the days when Stain was at its peak,when Mara was synonomous with m0o,or how Tank CEO was the king of Serum Prime. Our greatest friends are our enemies for they shared the same experiences as us.
There will be no great wars again til 0.0 is run by those with a more eloquent tongue and sharper mind then the majority of the people who read this,the plight of the propagandist is also the plight of the politician.
Politicians are now merely clerks maintaining POS' and worrying about Sov,oh and dealing with standings.
The difference between a war and a "Great" war is simple,a war you fight at your leisure,you either participate or you don't a "Great War"has figureheads,leaders,drama,compelling propaganda,a "Great War" makes everyone from the lowliest Rifter pilot to the most skilled Dreadnought pilot NEED to be on the front line,NEED to be killing or killed,there will be no more "Great Wars" til we have briliant people brave enough to debat their stances with eloquence,tact and varacity.
-----------------------------------------------
Done is done
Yes, there will be no taking back
Every journey must come to an end
All hail to the Gunslinger
Beyond our reach, out of control |
Shin Ra
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Posted - 2006.03.27 05:01:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Gungankllr
I believe forums are both a bane and a blessing in our game.
For example, If BoB makes a statement that you're beaten, I can pretty safely assume that they aren't lying, because as I was in BNC for a time, I have seen it first hand, more than once.
On the other hand, take Burn Eden for example. They make grandiose statements on who they are going to kill, and who they have killed / brought to their knees... But in all honesty they say quite a bit on the forums, but don't in reality do a whole lot.
(BE vs. BLUE, for instance.)
So to answer your original qustion, the forums are what makes the game so unique.
Wars are begun and lost over statements made on the forums.
BoB are infamous for what they do in space, which if you sit back and think about it, they've done a hell of a lot.
BE are infamous for boasting to do things in space, then never following through before moving on to something else.
Mo0 became infamous because of the forums. Not because of their official statements or actions, but because of the general populace posting about their actions.
Without the forums, this game wouldn't be as addictive as it is.
Everything on the forums (Except mindless spam) furthers the game just a little.
I've learned who hired merc corps against us from a main accidentally posting with their alt.
I've learned about upcoming attacks in our regions from buy orders or recruiting posts I've seen on the forums.
The forums are a game all in themselves.
I don't post that much, because quite frankly, I'm not really an important person in my alliance.
But people do remember who I am from my posts.
You don't understand what BURN EDEN is, until you join it. Your impression of us, while not accurate, is one that we actively portray. Few people have realised why this is.
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Gungankllr
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Posted - 2006.03.27 06:17:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Gungankllr
-Stuff-
You don't understand what BURN EDEN is, until you join it. Your impression of us, while not accurate, is one that we actively portray. Few people have realised why this is.
I concede that you're annoyingly hard to kill.
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shivan
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Posted - 2006.03.27 06:45:00 -
[67]
this forumes now amount to nothing more than the following
"rabble rabble rabble"
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.03.27 07:04:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Omber Zombie
1 good forum warrior is worth 10 good combat pilots (at least in my opinion) in any conflict. It's a shame the art of forum war has been turned into generic flame wars over the last year or so. I mourn the loss of the warriors that have fallen to the banstick or that horrible disease known as RL.
Oz, forum warrior in training
Jenny Spitfire agrees whole heartedly with Omber Zombie. One forum warrior has the might of 10 combat pilot. Old saying goes, because of the mouth, a whole nation is devastated.
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Elenia Kheynes
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Posted - 2006.03.27 09:46:00 -
[69]
Propaganda is a descent tool, but not the best ever.
The only thing that really matters is... intel.
Believe me, intel is much more effective than any propaganda you'll ever do. With it you can know what really hurts your enemy, how is his moral and finaly take advantage of it against him.
The war is not only to kill your enemy, it's to know how he thinks, how he feels... Then crush him.
Oh but you can get rid of a weak enemy just with guns btw ^^
Dear friendly customer... Can I have your money ?
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Havelcek
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Posted - 2006.03.27 16:57:00 -
[70]
Online forums for any game provide a focal point for discussion that is independent of peoples' actual playtime. That's why it is important and powerful. I would venture to guess that more than half the folks posting regularly on these threads do so at work instead of working (as am I).
The net effect is that while you might have an event or interaction happen in-game that is only witnessed by a handful of people, once broadcasted on the forums it becomes a part of the whole community experience. People who never get to experience certain aspects of the game get to do so on these forums and that's where the power lies...in the fact that people care. Propoganda is only as valuable as the cumulative effect on its target population.
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Kalened
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Posted - 2006.03.27 17:54:00 -
[71]
Propaganda serves a purpose in EVE but it will really only have an impact on alliance with alot of carebears. It's hard if not impossible to fight a propaganda war with BoB for instance. Other alliances are very easy to goad into a flamefest such as .5. Half my posts on this board are directed at .5 simply because i know 1 post by me equals 20 by them and although i look like an idiot it makes half their alliance look like idiots. You can't take anything outside of official announcements serious on this board. This board is 95% propaganda.
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Kalyster
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Posted - 2006.03.27 19:25:00 -
[72]
Propaganda is overpowered.
CCP should nerf the forums.
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Dirtball
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Posted - 2006.03.27 20:22:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Halseth Durn
Originally by: pershphanie
Edited by: pershphanie on 25/03/2006 07:41:36
Originally by: Halseth Durn
The days of grand propaganda swinging the morale and resolve of large numbers of pilots is unfortunately gone. Why? Because when eve was young, individuals were dealing with an underdeveloped communication network.
Back in the day, you spoke with the same people in your corp, a few from your alliance channel, and you got your galactic news from THIS FORUM.
Today, all the vets know (and mostly respect) each other. People tell the truth in private convos with an old comrade regardless if they were once enemies or not.
Propaganda wars between the powerful veterans in EVE is no longer an effective tool.
I completly disagree. Propaghanda is alive and well in eve. Morale is still 80% of every war. Morale is created and lost on these forums. Due to several changes to eve battles are much more than who ended up with the most kills at the end of a fight. There now can be many objectives to a battle. Who wins or loses is very much up to interpretation in many cases. How those battle outcomes are interpreted dictates your alliances morale. There is still no better way to kill an alliance than screaming over and over again "xxx alliance is dead". That may be lame, but its true.
Even quality alliances with 75% vets who have been in 0.0 eve for 2 years have 25% casual players who can still have very good skill points. If you can get that 25% to believe their alliance is getting their asses kicked they may go do missions, not log on, etc. If your alliances 100ship fleet gets decreased to a 75 ship fleet that can very easily make the difference between you fighting and sitting at a ss all day. This is when the 'internal problems' start and you start to hear 'xxx is dead' on these forums. This is how decay begins.
The most retarded part of all of this is that alot of times it is external parties who have really no clue in what is going on in a situation can play the biggest factor. For example lets say alliance 1 is fighting alliance 2. Its obvious that those two parties are going to have bad things to say about each other. However when alliances 3,4,5 who are neutral in the conflict get in on a thread saying 'alliance 1 is dead' even though they make have no clue what is going on they come off as more credible because they are 'neutral' in the situation. As lame as that may sound I've found it to be true.
Good points Persh. I sometimes forget that there are extremely valuable players who dont have the contacts or a "forum bull-$hit detector" that comes with experience.
Also there are like 20k more people logging in these sundays, and they come into the game asking stuff like "who's the best alliance" and "which is the best pvp corp" etc. When I first came into the game it was the "curse alliance of pirates", It took a long time for that bit of misinformation to wear off.
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Ituralde
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Posted - 2006.03.27 21:14:00 -
[74]
I think the biggest strike against the ability to do effective propoganda is the word limit on a post, and more than that the patience of most readers to go and read through everything an eloquent propogandist might have to say on a particular issue, even when it may have some good and interesting points.
I would say however for the masses alot of information on inter-alliance politics comes from this forum, particularly in engagements far removed from that particular player. Most importantly, the average player does not know the true story, so they weigh the points and counterpoints the various alliances throw at each other and deduce from that the actual status of the conflict in question.
Whiney or immature posts make an alliance seem to be losing a fight, as do alt posts. Posts that are well organized and put together, be it long and detailed or short, confident and concise, imply that there is power behind the speaking alliance. After all, credibility is relatively enforced on these forums as chances are, with the large scale conflicts going on, someone has concrete proof to the otherwise if someone makes something up.
In the end it all molds together in the poor person's mind for them to decide which alliance is winning a conflict, and that is what turns mass public opinion. When the mass opinion drifts in one direction, support for that group tends to increase and the other group tends to decrease, and even the most authoritarian leaders feel the crunch of that, as I am sure it would be hard to mobilise a force to join a side that everyone in your group is confident is losing the fight, and losing it badly.
So, it itself, forum warfare alone is completely insignificant. No group can win a battle only on the forums. However, with proper action taken in space, forums can amplify the effect of sucesses and victories to such an extent that what might have just been a single fleet victory, or some other minor event becomes a staggering blow to the other faction. Particularly if the other alliance does not respond in a way that lends themselves credibility.
On another note, I think another large strike against the quality of forum propoganda is... Well, i can't talk about that, now can I... 
Fear is the mind-killer. |
Fushen Asagiri
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Posted - 2006.03.27 21:48:00 -
[75]
Oftentimes it is in the simplicity of a persons logic that can sway the hearts of many. I have seen many times where a mere few lines of text could nutralize an argument, reducing it merely to "well, U R teh Sux!" level of reply. He who speaks least often sounds wisest.
Of course, there is an equaly strong logic behind the art of not speaking. As the proverb goes: "It is better to remain silent, and be assumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt".
Fushen
Just remember, the fact it almost exploded still means it didn't! --- "Fusion" Asagiri after a particularly harrowing space battle... |
Barek Ironfist
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Posted - 2006.03.27 22:35:00 -
[76]
I Take the view that propogand is going to become less and less important an aspect of the game.
This i feel is for a very good reasons, the implementation of outposts and other player constructed stations. ;
Having shed blood, sweat and tears to put on of these up for my corporation, nothing. Absolutley nothing would weaken my resolve to defend it and the area i live in. For better or worse it has become my home and i will never willingly abandon it.I know this to be true of my corp mates as well.
http://www.eve-files.com/media/corp/IXC/sig-barek-ascn-forums.jpg |
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