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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 17 post(s) |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
900
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Posted - 2014.01.24 17:54:00 -
[31] - Quote
A general response here: I'm fundamentally against any solution that proposes to change game mechanics based on TiDi factor. The purpose of Time Dilation was to maintain game mechanics under high load, not to give a platform to distort them. CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6215
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Posted - 2014.01.24 17:57:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Actual work has happened since Brain in a Box was announced. I don't want to go into amazing details 'cause it could be a devblog of its own, or maybe a Fanfest presentation or something, but I spent about 6 months solid on it personally before I got promoted to technical director. Early in the process I discovered that the fundamental design of Dogma was going to get in the way of implementing BiaB, so I started rewriting that foundation. Since then we had one failed attempt to boot it up with a different team. In December we gave it another spin and I'm very happy with the composition of the new team. I believe once they've come up to speed with the system they'll be able to knock out work at a great pace and put me to shame. What is "Dogma"? I'm sure you've mentioned it before but I can't remember what that system is.
edit: also, I hope CCP keeps your team intact: this sort of thing should be ongoing since this sort of stuff is really key for the game and these sort of massive battles being playable is a huge selling point to new people and retention for existing people (and, them being not playable leads to a lot of "**** this **** i'm out") Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Moira Ayindi
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2014.01.24 17:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:A general response here: I'm fundamentally against any solution that proposes to change game mechanics based on TiDi factor. The purpose of Time Dilation was to maintain game mechanics under high load, not to give a platform to distort them.
Awesome answer =ƒÿâ But Dinsdale don't believe you, he is a freak or troll xD |
Alicia Fermi
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
41
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:00:00 -
[34] - Quote
It was not covered in the devblog but is there a significant difference between drones when it comes to the load on the server? There is a suggestion that all drones cause lag because they are self-contained units that need to move and shoot, implying that Warrior IIs are just as much a source of lag as Garde IIs. If that is the case, why all the furore about droneboats when most ships in these fights will be sporting their own flights which will be lagging out the system whether they are assisted to a player or not.
A quickish fix would be to rework the additional drone in space bonus of certain capitals to additional damage. |
progodlegend
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
145
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:00:00 -
[35] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Gilbaron wrote:Aryth wrote:Why has no brain in a box work has occurred? This surely would have improved the jumpin/out experience of so many that were stuck in warp tunnels for hours. Brain in the box work is happening how happening happening in the sense that "oh that's a good idea we should do it sometime once we're finished with dust" or "actual work has been going on since it was announced"
Dust doesn't take away from EVE development, you know this already.
As far as other things, Team Gridlock is there to improve server performance, so I imagine they are going to prioritize whatever is best to fix server load. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
904
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:What is "Dogma"? I'm sure you've mentioned it before but I can't remember what that system is. Think of any situation in Eve where a number on one item modifies a number on another item. A skill level giving a bigger bonus, a shield resist module changing the resistance of the ship, a gun reducing the hitpoints of another ship, fitting a module reducing available CPU/PG. There is where you find Dogma. It also manages module activations and the like. It covers a huge amount of what you'd consider EVE core gameplay. CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
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Dirk Action
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
260
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Actual work has happened since Brain in a Box was announced. I don't want to go into amazing details 'cause it could be a devblog of its own, or maybe a Fanfest presentation or something, but I spent about 6 months solid on it personally before I got promoted to technical director. Early in the process I discovered that the fundamental design of Dogma was going to get in the way of implementing BiaB, so I started rewriting that foundation. Since then we had one failed attempt to boot it up with a different team. In December we gave it another spin and I'm very happy with the composition of the new team. I believe once they've come up to speed with the system they'll be able to knock out work at a great pace and put me to shame. What is "Dogma"? I'm sure you've mentioned it before but I can't remember what that system is. edit: also, I hope CCP keeps your team intact: this sort of thing should be ongoing since this sort of stuff is really key for the game and these sort of massive battles being playable is a huge selling point to new people and retention for existing people (and, them being not playable leads to a lot of "**** this **** i'm out")
this isn't k.com, friend, maybe actually reading the devblog will answer your question |
Edmark I
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
20
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
WarFireV wrote:Guess in the end, it was the 1000 domis that doomed CFCRUS.
You are correct sir. As we have long suspected- drones do much more in terms of processing than guns. Drones and mass drone doctrines are a major problem. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
904
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:04:00 -
[39] - Quote
Alicia Fermi wrote:It was not covered in the devblog but is there a significant difference between drones when it comes to the load on the server? There is a suggestion that all drones cause lag because they are self-contained units that need to move and shoot, implying that Warrior IIs are just as much a source of lag as Garde IIs. If that is the case, why all the furore about droneboats when most ships in these fights will be sporting their own flights which will be lagging out the system whether they are assisted to a player or not. Indeed, for the most part a drone is a drone is a drone. There is, however, a difference between a ship who has a standard dronebay and a drone-focused boat that's going to have space for spare flights and such. In the first case you'll have drones, sure, but they can be cleared by AoE and then you don't have drones. CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:08:00 -
[40] - Quote
To those of you who are perhaps donning the tinfoil a little too hastily, keep in mind that this situation is very similar to the situation a few years ago when massed drakes in fleet fights were causing servers to (in one case) literally catch fire due to missiles having unoptimized routines. CCP was able to largely eliminate these problems without affecting the state of game balance. (Indeed, the fall of the heavy missile from grace was due to a wholly separate gameplay change.) I imagine that a similar approach will be tried here, and that this "war on drones" will not necessarily be coupled with a gameplay change. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
2078
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:A general response here: I'm fundamentally against any solution that proposes to change game mechanics based on TiDi factor. The purpose of Time Dilation was to maintain game mechanics under high load, not to give a platform to distort them.
Then if you are against any solution that changes game mechanics, you are doomed to repeating this over and over, and stop allocating ANY resources to it, because giving people a platform to distort game mechanics is PRECISELY what you have now.
Do you seriously believe that magically, some genius at CCP will come up with a hardware /software solution that will fix all the problems with a 40,000 object fight (ships and drones)? Or how about 80,000, when the blob-seccers game the system again when you have your miracle cure for 40,000?
The only way you fix this is through a massive overhaul of the game mechanics, and maybe, just maybe, a total re-write of the code controlling system combat. Clearly, you have no intention of doing the first, and strongly doubt you have the inclination or resources for the second.
So you are doomed to fail.
Call it a day and focus on the rest of the game's subscription base. Most people viewed Orwell's writings as a warning. The harper regime and the goons treat them as a guidebook. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
979
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Alicia Fermi wrote:It was not covered in the devblog but is there a significant difference between drones when it comes to the load on the server? There is a suggestion that all drones cause lag because they are self-contained units that need to move and shoot, implying that Warrior IIs are just as much a source of lag as Garde IIs. If that is the case, why all the furore about droneboats when most ships in these fights will be sporting their own flights which will be lagging out the system whether they are assisted to a player or not. Indeed, for the most part a drone is a drone is a drone. There is, however, a difference between a ship who has a standard dronebay and a drone-focused boat that's going to have space for spare flights and such. In the first case you'll have drones, sure, but they can be cleared by AoE and then you don't have drones.
How much does a drone "lost" in space cost in performance? What if you have thousands of them? We are not supposed to drop large quantity of jet cans in space because it can cause lag and I would assume drones are counted as objects too.
How about entirely removing the auto attack behavior of drones and have the controler have to actaully control them with direct command/trigger on ship attack/assistant attack? Wouldn't that remove some of the ridiculous load generated by the thousand entities in space trying to analyse wich one of the 4k ships in space should be the next default target?
It's also eliminate some AFK play... |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
911
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Then if you are against any solution that changes game mechanics That's not what I said. I'm against any solution that alters game mechanics based on what the TiDi factor is. Changes to game mechanics that do not rely on the TiDi factor are not covered by this statement. CCP Veritas - Technical Director - EVE Online |
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stoicfaux
3895
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:19:00 -
[44] - Quote
+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?
Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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PinkPanter
The Scope Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Jowen Datloran wrote:Ah, so when the system approach 10% TiDi, all drones recall automatically due to "system interference" which would even be true.
Would also encourage peeps to stop using those idiotic ships.
I like those ships. Play your game and let me play mine. Find a fix that benefits all not just your ******** self.
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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
979
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?
Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)
As soon as we find a way to make different drones with different stats behave the same way... |
PinkPanter
The Scope Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:22:00 -
[47] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Alicia Fermi wrote:It was not covered in the devblog but is there a significant difference between drones when it comes to the load on the server? There is a suggestion that all drones cause lag because they are self-contained units that need to move and shoot, implying that Warrior IIs are just as much a source of lag as Garde IIs. If that is the case, why all the furore about droneboats when most ships in these fights will be sporting their own flights which will be lagging out the system whether they are assisted to a player or not. Indeed, for the most part a drone is a drone is a drone. There is, however, a difference between a ship who has a standard dronebay and a drone-focused boat that's going to have space for spare flights and such. In the first case you'll have drones, sure, but they can be cleared by AoE and then you don't have drones. How much does a drone "lost" in space cost in performance? What if you have thousands of them? We are not supposed to drop large quantity of jet cans in space because it can cause lag and I would assume drones are counted as objects too. How about entirely removing the auto attack behavior of drones and have the controler have to actaully control them with direct command/trigger on ship attack/assistant attack? Wouldn't that remove some of the ridiculous load generated by the thousand entities in space trying to analyse wich one of the 4k ships in space should be the next default target? It's also eliminate some AFK play...
In hed we couldn't set drone assist when turkey shooting. It was all done manually. Got another point? |
stoicfaux
3895
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:22:00 -
[48] - Quote
Give drones Miniature Micro Jump Drives instead of MWDs to cut down on long range travel calculations.
Make drones out of transparent aluminium so you don't have to render them.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
197
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:stoicfaux wrote:+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?
Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)
As soon as we find a way to make different drones with different stats behave the same way... That's not hard -- if you are, say, in a Rapier and deploy three medium drones and two light drones due to your 40 m^3 drone bay, you just then control two swarms -- one medium droneswarm, one light droneswarm.
If you are a goof and deploy five distinct, separate types of drones, then good for you, and the game treats it the same it would today. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Leigh Akiga
My Highsec Backbone
516
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:23:00 -
[50] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?
Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)
Or bring sentry drones in line with other battleship weapon systems in terms of tracking, optimal, rate of fire and dps. If both sides in a fight are bringing the same thing- and literally everyone else from the alliance tournament on down to every current fleet concept in 0.0 are using the sentry drone then clearly the thing needs to raise some eyebrows.
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PinkPanter
The Scope Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:25:00 -
[51] - Quote
Leigh Akiga wrote:stoicfaux wrote:+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?
Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.) Or bring sentry drones in line with other battleship weapon systems in terms of tracking, optimal, rate of fire and dps. If both sides in a fight are bringing the same thing- and literally everyone else from the alliance tournament on down to every current fleet concept in 0.0 are using the sentry drone then clearly the thing needs to raise some eyebrows.
People used drakes, tengus, proteuses, gilas, oracles, zealots, nados and sooo on. Now we have something else. Find a way AROUND it instead of NERFING it. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
979
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:25:00 -
[52] - Quote
PinkPanter wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Alicia Fermi wrote:It was not covered in the devblog but is there a significant difference between drones when it comes to the load on the server? There is a suggestion that all drones cause lag because they are self-contained units that need to move and shoot, implying that Warrior IIs are just as much a source of lag as Garde IIs. If that is the case, why all the furore about droneboats when most ships in these fights will be sporting their own flights which will be lagging out the system whether they are assisted to a player or not. Indeed, for the most part a drone is a drone is a drone. There is, however, a difference between a ship who has a standard dronebay and a drone-focused boat that's going to have space for spare flights and such. In the first case you'll have drones, sure, but they can be cleared by AoE and then you don't have drones. How much does a drone "lost" in space cost in performance? What if you have thousands of them? We are not supposed to drop large quantity of jet cans in space because it can cause lag and I would assume drones are counted as objects too. How about entirely removing the auto attack behavior of drones and have the controler have to actaully control them with direct command/trigger on ship attack/assistant attack? Wouldn't that remove some of the ridiculous load generated by the thousand entities in space trying to analyse wich one of the 4k ships in space should be the next default target? It's also eliminate some AFK play... In hed we couldn't set drone assist when turkey shooting. It was all done manually. Got another point?
If drone assist was not working, it means every single drone had to find a target by itself or wait for a direct command. All those drones then go through the whole list of ship on grid and check if they are a good target. This will add to the load. If dones were just unable to direct themself, it would mean those thousands of things in space start morking more closely to ship because the server don't "think" for them. |
stoicfaux
3896
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:stoicfaux wrote:+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?
Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)
As soon as we find a way to make different drones with different stats behave the same way... Given a group of drones, calculate the average DPS and damage type(s) into one attack. This calculation is done once when the group is created, i.e. it creates a single unique drone attack instead of 5 individual drone attacks. edit: It's like weapon grouping but allows for having "different" types of guns in one group. It should work because drone differences in range and tracking are relatively minimal, so it's not like you're having to abstract a 5km blaster with a 100km railgun in a single group.
Abstracting maneuverability is a bit trickier, but leveling out drone performance (e.g. all lights travel the same speed) is one method. Giving drones a micro MJD in place of an MWD is another way. WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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PinkPanter
The Scope Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:PinkPanter wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Alicia Fermi wrote:It was not covered in the devblog but is there a significant difference between drones when it comes to the load on the server? There is a suggestion that all drones cause lag because they are self-contained units that need to move and shoot, implying that Warrior IIs are just as much a source of lag as Garde IIs. If that is the case, why all the furore about droneboats when most ships in these fights will be sporting their own flights which will be lagging out the system whether they are assisted to a player or not. Indeed, for the most part a drone is a drone is a drone. There is, however, a difference between a ship who has a standard dronebay and a drone-focused boat that's going to have space for spare flights and such. In the first case you'll have drones, sure, but they can be cleared by AoE and then you don't have drones. How much does a drone "lost" in space cost in performance? What if you have thousands of them? We are not supposed to drop large quantity of jet cans in space because it can cause lag and I would assume drones are counted as objects too. How about entirely removing the auto attack behavior of drones and have the controler have to actaully control them with direct command/trigger on ship attack/assistant attack? Wouldn't that remove some of the ridiculous load generated by the thousand entities in space trying to analyse wich one of the 4k ships in space should be the next default target? It's also eliminate some AFK play... In hed we couldn't set drone assist when turkey shooting. It was all done manually. Got another point? If drone assist was not working, it means every single drone had to find a target by itself or wait for a direct command. All those drones then go through the whole list of ship on grid and check if they are a good target. This will add to the load. If dones were just unable to direct themself, it would mean those thousands of things in space start morking more closely to ship because the server don't "think" for them.
Whatever that is what you all want is to nerf all the TIME i have put into new skills. Reimburse SP then because it's pretty stupid to go chasing goats everytime CCP can't find a solution and people cry. That's what pisses me off. FIX it not nerf or remove FFS. How many times does it have to happen till you all realize a patch is not a fix and that's exactly what always happens. |
DRGaius Baltar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
88
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:The worst lag was when people were jumping in, wouldn't reopening the Brian in the Box idea really have helped in this instance? I think we're all used to module lag, and lag moving about etc, it's the reappearance of the black screen of death that was majorly concerning.
When you can't load grid, you can't turn on hardeners, and you're alpha'd off the field before it loads. That's not fun game play.
Herpa ...derp... derp..... derp.....Guess you guys shouldn't of jumped your capital fleet on the same god damn grid with your domi fleet + 5,000k drones in addition to N3/PL fleet....... |
PinkPanter
The Scope Gallente Federation
29
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Posted - 2014.01.24 18:30:00 -
[56] - Quote
DRGaius Baltar wrote:Kismeteer wrote:The worst lag was when people were jumping in, wouldn't reopening the Brian in the Box idea really have helped in this instance? I think we're all used to module lag, and lag moving about etc, it's the reappearance of the black screen of death that was majorly concerning.
When you can't load grid, you can't turn on hardeners, and you're alpha'd off the field before it loads. That's not fun game play. Herpa ...derp... derp..... derp.....Guess you guys shouldn't of jumped your capital fleet on the same god damn grid with your domi fleet + 5,000k drones in addition to N3/PL fleet.......
When CCP raises cap to 7000 they will jump 6000 and cry about it again. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
979
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:stoicfaux wrote:+1 for Drone swarms (i.e. groups), because how often do people not apply all their drones to a single target?
Hell, go one step further all put all drones attacking a single target into an aggregate group? If 15 drones from three attackers are on one target, then treat those 15 drones as one single drone swarm. (Yes, abstracting different drones into one attack is non-trivial.)
As soon as we find a way to make different drones with different stats behave the same way... Given a group of drones, calculate the average DPS and damage type(s) into one attack. This calculation is done once when the group is created, i.e. it creates a single unique drone attack instead of 5 individual drone attacks. Abstracting maneuverability is a bit trickier, but leveling out drone performance (e.g. all lights travel the same speed) is one method. Giving drones a micro MJD in place of an MWD is another way.
Unless they make drone totally immobile unless jumping, then the load will be the same or more if the drone calculate himself if he should jump or "slowboat". Each gun attack also need to be calculated individually to be on equal term as guns even if groupped. |
Highfield
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
51
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:32:00 -
[58] - Quote
Would stripping sentry drones from all movement capabilties (ie. turning them into deployed turrets) help solve some of the lag related to them? After all, it takes all movement calculations out of the equations while nobody is going to miss that 1m/s.. |
stoicfaux
3896
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:32:00 -
[59] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Unless they make drone totally immobile unless jumping, then the load will be the same or more if the drone calculate himself if he should jump or "slowboat". Each gun attack also need to be calculated individually to be on equal term as guns even if groupped. No, and no.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
979
|
Posted - 2014.01.24 18:33:00 -
[60] - Quote
PinkPanter wrote:
Whatever that is what you all want is to nerf all the TIME i have put into new skills. Reimburse SP then because it's pretty stupid to go chasing goats everytime CCP can't find a solution and people cry. That's what pisses me off. FIX it not nerf or remove FFS. How many times does it have to happen till you all realize a patch is not a fix and that's exactly what always happens.
I am just askign for them to not select target by themself and shoot by themself unless they recive a command telling them to. They would still respond to a trigger boat under drone assist and still be able to be used by directing them.
I only want the "auto-attack" portion of them removed because anyway concentrated fire on a chosen target is better anyway and it's a shitload of check the server has to do for them to behave in the current way. |
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