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Yojiritsu
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Posted - 2006.03.29 18:27:00 -
[1]
Can we get some recon ship love ?
All the recons ( except the caldari ones ) do not get a bonus to their supposed strength : the racial variant of ECM. ( amarr : turret destab, gallente damps, minnie painters)
Especially the gallente Launcher RoF bonus makes me cry.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.29 18:31:00 -
[2]
They get bonuses to more useful things instead. Amarr have nos, minmatar have webs etc. To be honest, range bonuses on those things is an absolute god-send. it turns standard gear into officer gear.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.03.29 18:36:00 -
[3]
I think the minmatar recon ships are fine. We get the 25% bonuse to painters for having Cruser lvl 5 plus a webbing bonuse which will help your accuracy a S**T load aswell. Anouther bonuse to painter I think would lose affectiveness.
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Bazman
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Posted - 2006.03.29 19:02:00 -
[4]
People do not yet realise the ultimate power recon ships have, all of them. (Stolen from Ninja's i might add)
Seriously.
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Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.29 19:04:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Bazman
People do not yet realise the ultimate power recon ships have, all of them. (Stolen from Ninja's i might add)
Seriously.
Curse. Shield Tank. Nos. Enough said, right?
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Bazman
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Posted - 2006.03.29 19:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Bazman
People do not yet realise the ultimate power recon ships have, all of them. (Stolen from Ninja's i might add)
Seriously.
Curse. Shield Tank. Nos. Enough said, right?
Well, that isn't what i was thinking, but omg. Covert Recon ships = luv. Combat Recon ships = meh
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Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
seeyouauntie
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Posted - 2006.03.29 20:07:00 -
[7]
I'd still love to be able to fit a cloak and a cyno field generator on the covert recons. It only makes sense since, you know, they get a bonus to both.
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I <3 mining. |
OrangeAfroMan
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Posted - 2006.03.30 01:57:00 -
[8]
Bonus to Webber range = freaking uber, not to mention the Disruptor and Nos range... dear jesus Recons rock
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Eximius Josari
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Posted - 2006.03.30 02:03:00 -
[9]
I'd love to play around with a Rapier.
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Cmd Woodlouse
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Posted - 2006.03.30 03:27:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jet Collins
I think the minmatar recon ships are fine. We get the 25% bonuse to painters for having Cruser lvl 5 plus a webbing bonuse which will help your accuracy a S**T load aswell. Anouther bonuse to painter I think would lose affectiveness.
Target Painters suck. Webbing Range sucks also, when u dont deal any decent amount of dmg at all, while not being able to fit a tank, well not being able to fit decent amount of firepower aswell (speaking of the huginn).
Curse can be uber, and Caldari ones are just ridiculously overpowered.
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I am G and i am IRON - as we all are brothers in arms and times of need. |
babylonstew
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Posted - 2006.03.30 06:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
Originally by: Jet Collins
I think the minmatar recon ships are fine. We get the 25% bonuse to painters for having Cruser lvl 5 plus a webbing bonuse which will help your accuracy a S**T load aswell. Anouther bonuse to painter I think would lose affectiveness.
Target Painters suck. Webbing Range sucks also, when u dont deal any decent amount of dmg at all, while not being able to fit a tank, well not being able to fit decent amount of firepower aswell (speaking of the huginn).
Curse can be uber, and Caldari ones are just ridiculously overpowered.
yes the falcons damage output is just pant wttingly scary 
X13 - We will win EVE |
SpaceDrake Taleweaver
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Posted - 2006.03.30 06:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
Target Painters suck. Webbing Range sucks also, when u dont deal any decent amount of dmg at all, while not being able to fit a tank, well not being able to fit decent amount of firepower aswell (speaking of the huginn).
Yes, clearly being able to do nearly full damage to small, fast vessels with heavy missiles because you can nearly double your target's Signature sucks.
If ever there was a vessel that was blatantly designed to kill Interceptors and Interdictors, the Huginn is it.
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What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?... |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.03.30 06:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: SpaceDrake Taleweaver
Yes, clearly being able to do nearly full damage to small, fast vessels with heavy missiles because you can nearly double your target's Signature sucks.
If ever there was a vessel that was blatantly designed to kill Interceptors and Interdictors, the Huginn is it.
...isn't that what precision heavies are for?
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Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
SpaceDrake Taleweaver
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Posted - 2006.03.30 06:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
...isn't that what precision heavies are for?
Sure, they can be. But you might not have access to Precision ammo all the time, for various reasons. The Huginn strikes me as a ship that is designed with the exact purpose of striking down small, fast targets with impunity, regardless of what ammo it has loaded.
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What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?...
Player of the character "Amarii Oulasangeri". |
DeadRow
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Posted - 2006.03.30 07:02:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
Originally by: Jet Collins
I think the minmatar recon ships are fine. We get the 25% bonuse to painters for having Cruser lvl 5 plus a webbing bonuse which will help your accuracy a S**T load aswell. Anouther bonuse to painter I think would lose affectiveness.
Target Painters suck. Webbing Range sucks also, when u dont deal any decent amount of dmg at all, while not being able to fit a tank, well not being able to fit decent amount of firepower aswell (speaking of the huginn).
Curse can be uber, and Caldari ones are just ridiculously overpowered.
well.. afaik anit recons suppose to used in a gang? in which case you wont need to deal dmg because if ur webbingat 40km ull be help the gang pwn the target.
Originally by: Eris Discordia
TAKE COVER, HIDE YOUR SIGNATURE
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.03.30 07:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nyphur
Edited by: Nyphur on 29/03/2006 18:38:33
They get bonuses to more useful things instead. Amarr have nos, minmatar have webs etc. To be honest, range bonuses on those things is an absolute god-send. it turns standard gear into officer gear.
EDIT: Wait, they do get bonuses to raical EW. What are you talking about?
The minnie ones turn t1 to officer, the gallente one does t1 to faction. Not quite balanced imo (the warp disruptor range bonus needs a boost).
_
__
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.30 07:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DeadRow
Originally by: Cmd Woodlouse
Originally by: Jet Collins
I think the minmatar recon ships are fine. We get the 25% bonuse to painters for having Cruser lvl 5 plus a webbing bonuse which will help your accuracy a S**T load aswell. Anouther bonuse to painter I think would lose affectiveness.
Target Painters suck. Webbing Range sucks also, when u dont deal any decent amount of dmg at all, while not being able to fit a tank, well not being able to fit decent amount of firepower aswell (speaking of the huginn).
Curse can be uber, and Caldari ones are just ridiculously overpowered.
well.. afaik anit recons suppose to used in a gang? in which case you wont need to deal dmg because if ur webbingat 40km ull be help the gang pwn the target.
since your target isnt scambled if there is no ceptor around, it doesnt really matter...
and believe him, he flown one, he gave it to me, I flown it, and I prefered to fly a BB
www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Nafri/Hidden_in_the_sand_Kopie1.jpg[/IMG]
Jawas are lousy carebears :(
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes |
Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: DeadRow
well.. afaik anit recons suppose to used in a gang? in which case you wont need to deal dmg because if ur webbingat 40km ull be help the gang pwn the target.
Yes I think this is very true. I may regret saying this but wouldn't you think a huginn would be great teamed up with a sniping gate camper. It has a targeting range of 120km standard so you can paint stuff really far away with great skill... No more shuttles getting buy plus if anyting desides to come at you it can web them before they even get close...
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.30 13:51:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jet Collins
Originally by: DeadRow
well.. afaik anit recons suppose to used in a gang? in which case you wont need to deal dmg because if ur webbingat 40km ull be help the gang pwn the target.
Yes I think this is very true. I may regret saying this but wouldn't you think a huginn would be great teamed up with a sniping gate camper. It has a targeting range of 120km standard so you can paint stuff really far away with great skill... No more shuttles getting buy plus if anyting desides to come at you it can web them before they even get close...
problem with shuttles is not to hit them, but to lock them. Also target painting has pretty poor range.
www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Nafri/Hidden_in_the_sand_Kopie1.jpg[/IMG]
Jawas are lousy carebears :(
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes |
Dash Ripcock
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Posted - 2006.03.30 14:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Nyphur
Edited by: Nyphur on 29/03/2006 18:38:33
They get bonuses to more useful things instead. Amarr have nos, minmatar have webs etc. To be honest, range bonuses on those things is an absolute god-send. it turns standard gear into officer gear.
EDIT: Wait, they do get bonuses to raical EW. What are you talking about?
The minnie ones turn t1 to officer, the gallente one does t1 to faction. Not quite balanced imo (the warp disruptor range bonus needs a boost).
I agree here. The webifier bonus on the Minmatar ship is enormous, as is the nosferatu boost on the Curse. The Gallente ships should be able to scramble out to 40Km to become really useful.
Save The Deimos |
Bazman
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Posted - 2006.03.30 14:37:00 -
[21]
Look, tell you what, get together a covert recon squad. 1 Arazu, 1 Pilgrim, 1 Falcon and 1 Rapier.
Come back and complain about any of the recons and i'll have a laugh at you. If you team them up together, they are litterally an unkillable force, the only way to beat them is to use a passive tanked, fof cruise launching Raven with 2 large smartbombs. Nothing else remotely has a chance against them.
Recon = sex
-----
Hi TomB! All out Do or Die Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks. |
dazedandconfused
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Posted - 2006.03.30 15:05:00 -
[22]
Caldari Recons rule. My alt flys both a Rook and a Falcon. Jamming power, yum! 
Though I don't think they had the problem, but I felt like posting none the less.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.30 15:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bazman
Look, tell you what, get together a covert recon squad. 1 Arazu, 1 Pilgrim, 1 Falcon and 1 Rapier.
Come back and complain about any of the recons and i'll have a laugh at you. If you team them up together, they are litterally an unkillable force, the only way to beat them is to use a passive tanked, fof cruise launching Raven with 2 large smartbombs. Nothing else remotely has a chance against them.
Recon = sex
Exactly. Now add a cloaked interdictor and a scanning/scouting covops for 0.0. There's something frustrating about fighting a small team of cloaked ships that can **** out a bubble at any second, always know where you are and can find you and kill+pod you if you log off near a known object 95% of the time.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Ortu Konsinni
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Posted - 2006.03.30 16:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: seeyouauntie
I'd still love to be able to fit a cloak and a cyno field generator on the covert recons. It only makes sense since, you know, they get a bonus to both.
It'll come... The fact that they can't right now is, as far as I know, due to a bug whose fix is LONG overdue. But I guess we had to have the new bloodlines first...
---
High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.03.30 16:30:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nyphur
Originally by: Bazman
Look, tell you what, get together a covert recon squad. 1 Arazu, 1 Pilgrim, 1 Falcon and 1 Rapier.
Come back and complain about any of the recons and i'll have a laugh at you. If you team them up together, they are litterally an unkillable force, the only way to beat them is to use a passive tanked, fof cruise launching Raven with 2 large smartbombs. Nothing else remotely has a chance against them.
Recon = sex
Exactly. Now add a cloaked interdictor and a scanning/scouting covops for 0.0. There's something frustrating about fighting a small team of cloaked ships that can **** out a bubble at any second, always know where you are and can find you and kill+pod you if you log off near a known object 95% of the time.
as an interdictor pilot I must say this:
As wingmates, there is nothing better as recon ships.
Light, fast, and can literally make a small enemy gang turning from supah mopah into glittering pile of goo.
Them thing are evil, and if you have a buddy in a interdictor, they become near-overpowered fighting equal numbers, or even in a 1,5 to 1 propotion.
----------------
Originally by: Abdalion
Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 16:46:00 -
[26]
The Amarrian recons are good. No doubt nor debate at all.
The Caldari recons are powerful. There is some doubt about the survival rate of a Rook, but that is inconsequential.
The Minmatar recons are rather powerful, although the webbifier bonus to the covert recon is... slightly stupid.
The Gallente recons suck. Not only is the disruptor bonus weak, but also very stupid on the covert recon. The disruptor bonus needs to either be changed to a strength bonus or boosted substantially to the magnitude of the range bonus of webs or nosferatus on the other recons (30-40%).
Amarr recons are unique, and can't be replaced by another ship. They hold their own.
The Caldari (combat) recon can be replaced by a Scorpion, which tend to cost just about the same. The Falcon is really, really, really good.
The Minmatar recons can't be replaced, but their uses are limited and needs to be complemented by battleship and tacklers.
The Gallente recons can be replaced by Celestis, which cuts costs and risk extremely.
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Arkanor
Gallente missileboat might be cool.
Pod yourself till you got no skills.[ |
Porro
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Posted - 2006.03.30 16:52:00 -
[27]
Recons don't need a damage bonus their ew is for a supporting role, itd be like saying wtf, my logistic ship sucks at ganking :(.
Mix some hacs with some recons and you have a very lethal group that can handle much bigger groups as most of the enemies will be disabled due to EW.
----------------------------------------------------
(22:01:14) (Sangxianc) you, porro, have madder skillzors than i, sang, do
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SLIM
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Posted - 2006.03.30 17:25:00 -
[28]
The gallente one needs faction gear to really shine, but trust me, you do NOT want to mess with a gallente covert recon. Scrambling at 50km=win.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.03.30 17:41:00 -
[29]
Heh. Anyone thinking the Amarr ones are best are pretty clueless. The Nossing may be nice, and indeed it is, but the damage is low, easily countered and the ships themselfs cant take any amount of beating. And trust me, that hurts when you have no way to cancel out your opponents damage completely, like the Caldari and Gallente ones can.
The Minnie one is just **** solo, although it IS somewhat nice to sit in enemy HQs at jump-ins, uncloaking and one-volleying frigs as they warp/jump in. Its immensily usefull in groups, as are the Gallente and Caldari ones for that matter.
The Amarr ones on the other hand really arent. You dont need the Nos in groups to break tanks. Ofcourse they DO shine solo, as long as youre not engaging a Raven.
btw, Shieldtanked Curse = waste. While it has a nice tank, youre much better off stuffing every midslot with EW to help your group.
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Dash Ripcock
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Posted - 2006.03.30 17:47:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Shieldtanked Curse = waste. While it has a nice tank, youre much better off stuffing every midslot with EW to help your group.
Agreed. The only time you would want a shield-tank is if you're fighting a missile or drone ship, and even then your chances aren't good. They can just blow up your drones.
Save The Deimos |
Halada
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:05:00 -
[31]
Pardon me if I offend you, but I got some questions on Recons... they really interest me, and this thread seems to be my best bet to find good answers.
I was wondering if the Falcon had any sort survivability solo? Also, if in a gang (ie. defending space or whatever it is) what kind of damage can it take ? Because honestly, this looks like teh sh!t !
My ''All you want to know about mining'' Guide |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:15:00 -
[32]
Falcon survivability is great. How much damage it can take I do not know, the one we use in our gangs doesn't take damage since it is a tactical jammer. Uncloak, lock, jam, and then either warp away, recloak, or keep jamming
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Arkanor
Gallente missileboat might be cool.
Pod yourself till you got no skills.[ |
Halada
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:18:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ithildin
Falcon survivability is great. How much damage it can take I do not know, the one we use in our gangs doesn't take damage since it is a tactical jammer. Uncloak, lock, jam, and then either warp away, recloak, or keep jamming
Whats the point of jamming then warping out?
My ''All you want to know about mining'' Guide |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:23:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Halada
Originally by: Ithildin
Falcon survivability is great. How much damage it can take I do not know, the one we use in our gangs doesn't take damage since it is a tactical jammer. Uncloak, lock, jam, and then either warp away, recloak, or keep jamming
Whats the point of jamming then warping out?
none, basicly you can also fly a rook as well, has a bit more HP
www.eve-files.com/media/corp/Nafri/Hidden_in_the_sand_Kopie1.jpg[/IMG]
Jawas are lousy carebears :(
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes |
seeyouauntie
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:24:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Halada
Pardon me if I offend you, but I got some questions on Recons... they really interest me, and this thread seems to be my best bet to find good answers.
I was wondering if the Falcon had any sort survivability solo? Also, if in a gang (ie. defending space or whatever it is) what kind of damage can it take ? Because honestly, this looks like teh sh!t !
I don't think recons are meant to tank. It's a waste. If you want to tank, get a BS.
Recon ships' strength is ewar. Stick with that.
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I <3 mining. |
Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:28:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Dr Fighter on 30/03/2006 18:28:48
Falcons survivability is good, however its dmg is extremely low - when compared with the other covert recons its simply laughable.
Covert Recons high slots:
Falcon - 4 highs, 2 turrets 2 launchers - no dmg bonus
Azaru - 4 highs, 3 turrets 1 launcher - dmg bonus to turrets
Pilgrim - 4 highs, 3 turrets no launcher - dmg bonus to drones! and space for 7 mediums
Rapier - 4 highs, 3 turrets 1 launcher - rof bonus to turrets.
Does anybody notice the blatent difference between the Falcon and the rest?
Now considering that one high slot with be used up with the covert ops cloak, the falcon is left with 2 launchers and a turret or 2 turrets and one launcher with no dmg bonuses what so ever.
Same chart for effective weapons for covert recons:
Falcon - 3 highs remaining - effective dmg output 3 slots (2 launcher 1 turret prolly)
Azaru - 3 highs remaining - effective dmg output 3.75 turrets - plus 4 medium drones
Pilgrim - 3 highs remaining - effective dmg output 3 turrets - plus 7.5 meidum drones (5 in space with 50% dmg increase and 2 spare)
Rapier - 3 highs remaining - effective dmg output 3.75 turrets - plus 4 medium drones
Dmg may not be as nessary with a decent gang, but clearly the 'extra EW' bonus the falcon has on modules which can fail hardly makes up for the huge gap in dmg.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:41:00 -
[37]
It has an ECM bonus instead
Seriously, how much more useful can you get on a cloaking ship?
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:46:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Nyphur on 30/03/2006 18:45:56
Originally by: seeyouauntie
I don't think recons are meant to tank. It's a waste. If you want to tank, get a BS.
Recon ships' strength is ewar. Stick with that.
Except that T2 cruisers can tank better than BS.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Dash Ripcock
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Posted - 2006.03.30 18:58:00 -
[39]
The Falcon can also play the trick of jamming the enemy, cloaking, allowing the jam to continue running its cycle, then uncloak to jam again. It also hides your ECM support from a target scouting you.
Save The Deimos |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.30 19:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dash Ripcock
The Falcon can also play the trick of jamming the enemy, cloaking, allowing the jam to continue running its cycle, then uncloak to jam again. It also hides your ECM support from a target scouting you.
Don't forget that you can warp while cloaked by fitting the covop cloak on the falcon. You can cloak, warp to a new position so they can't hone in on you and decloak and scramble you with a tackler. With the range bonus on the falcon's jammers, you can jam someone, cloak, warp to a position 100km on the other side of them with some cleverly positioned secure cans or bookmarks and repeat.
With enough different positions, you could spend the entire fight cloak-warping around between spots, jamming the target and not missing a single second of the jamming. You could fit 2 launchers and let out a missile every time you cycle the jammer but that's about it. Not much damage output at all and it would be hard to pull off without secure cans arranged around the fight point but it plays to the Falcon's strengths and you're making your fleet's ECM practically uncallable as a target. They can waste time chasing you around the place or they can pick a target they can actually destroy.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.03.30 20:10:00 -
[41]
Except you cannot warp to bookmarks that are in the same grid as you are.
Cans would work, but then again, other people can warp to them aswell.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.30 21:13:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Nyphur on 30/03/2006 21:13:23
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Except you cannot warp to bookmarks that are in the same grid as you are.
Cans would work, but then again, other people can warp to them aswell.
You can warp to something in the same grid that's over 150km away. I'll have to see if that bookmark thing is true. And are you sure you can warp to cans that aren't from your corp? I could check but I think you can't.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 21:15:00 -
[43]
You can warp to cans from other people's corps. I do it all the time.
The only thing you can't warp to (that you're normally allowed to warp to) within the same grid and outside 150km is bookmarks.
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Arkanor
Gallente missileboat might be cool.
Pod yourself till you got no skills.[ |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.30 21:29:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Nyphur on 30/03/2006 21:29:53
Originally by: Ithildin
You can warp to cans from other people's corps. I do it all the time.
The only thing you can't warp to (that you're normally allowed to warp to) within the same grid and outside 150km is bookmarks.
Ah, damn. Then we're only left with ships liek shuttles and they're easy to pop. Still, you might be able to warp to something just off-grid and back again before a multispectral jammer cycles.
But then take locking time into account and it's probably not too viable.
But basically, it means if you have a bookmark off-grid and you get into trouble, you can always jam, cloak and warp, then warp back again.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.03.30 21:31:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ithildin
The Minmatar recons are rather powerful, although the webbifier bonus to the covert recon is... slightly stupid.
The Minmatar recons can't be replaced, but their uses are limited and needs to be complemented by battleship and tacklers.
Is this a joke? Have you flown a Rapier at all? I would say not...
Going to make this simple. Rapier has all the tools for a great frigate and cruiser beat down ship (including T2 classes). This ship is perfect in almost every way. The bonuses are great too. You can web a target 34km out and mobilize them from getting in range of a warp disruptor. You have a painter bonus that can pretty much increase your Arty or Autocannon output from just 3 turrets. Not only that you have a elite rack of midslots for a number of diffrent "out the box" builds. Yet there is more? It has a drone bay that can hold 4 tech II medium drones or utility such as ECM drones/Nos/Webby whatever.
I still don't see why people are complaining about bonuses. The falcon is just a EW ship that's it. If I fought one in my Rapier it wouldn't break my tank. It has the DPS of a little vigil. It's nothing and I wouldn't be caught dead with it solo unless it was being used for gang/support purposes. Then which it's great!
However, that doesn't make the Rapier as an example a great EW ship. Prob the best out of the (cloaking) recons with DPS value. The thing with people in EVE is if it doesn't have a bonus for it you cry. Nothing is stopping you from running ECM on a Recon that doesn't have a bonus for it. Trust me they wont fail if you study your EW and what it can do. Thus allowing my rapier to be undeafeted solo by any of the chosen ships I engaged SOLO.
3x180 II
1xCloak
4xHypnos Multispec ECM
1xWebber (Bonus rocks and much needed)
1xWarp Scrambler
1600mm Plate
Medium Armor Rep II
2xUtility/Enhanments (WCS for my weak ass)
4xMedium Tech II drones or ECM
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.03.30 21:32:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ithildin
You can warp to cans from other people's corps. I do it all the time.
There's something funny with them though. Usually you can warp to them fine, but i've had cases where i got the "Your Warp Drive is unabe to lock onto the selected object" message trying to warp to cans. Seems random from what i can tell.
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.30 21:43:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Originally by: Ithildin
You can warp to cans from other people's corps. I do it all the time.
There's something funny with them though. Usually you can warp to them fine, but i've had cases where i got the "Your Warp Drive is unabe to lock onto the selected object" message trying to warp to cans. Seems random from what i can tell.
Checked whether they're anchored or unanchored?
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2006.03.30 21:59:00 -
[48]
Oh, it always works on Anchored cans. Im talking about Cargo Containers, dropped from NPCs and players. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesnt.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.03.30 22:07:00 -
[49]
Famine, just exactly how many disclaimers, special situation reservations and so on do one need to write in order to make a comparison that people won't actively look for faults. It might be too much to ask that someone tries to read what is left understood, or makes an effort to fit it in it's context.
In this case what you, and this is you, was my actual point. My real point was that I am really dissatisfied with the Gallente recons, and was trying to illustrate with a comparison to the other recons how and why. I left quite a bit of things unsaid because they didn't matter.
When the Gallentean recons' scramblers (not disruptors) reach (nearly) as far as the Rapiers' webs, that's when the Gallentean recons will start to shine, too.
Also, the Falcon is great and absolutely amazing. I love every second I know my gangmate is there, just out of sight, guarding my back.
P.S. the ECM Rapier described has cap problems, but I see what you mean.
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Originally by: Ithildin
You can warp to cans from other people's corps. I do it all the time.
There's something funny with them though. Usually you can warp to them fine, but i've had cases where i got the "Your Warp Drive is unabe to lock onto the selected object" message trying to warp to cans. Seems random from what i can tell.
Yup, some cans are funny and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with anything. I haven't check if the funny cans are somehow "audit cans" or not, but they don't turn up very regulary that it is no matter.
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Arkanor
Gallente missileboat might be cool.
Pod yourself till you got no skills.[ |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.03.31 00:30:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Ithildin
P.S. the ECM Rapier described has cap problems, but I see what you mean.
Cap problems on what? There is no cap problems for the ECM Rapier.............. Don't assume, it's bad for your health.
So lets look at the Arazu for your smack on this great ship. The reason my ECM Rapier is so elite is because it CAN support 4xECM modules WITHOUT cap enhancements and sacrifice. What I mean by sacrifice is that 4xECM yields a great JAM CHANCE vs a lot of opponents. So with having 6 medium slots you can do that. So the Arazu if I had to switch ships would be a great switch. The Arazu ALSO has 6 medium slots and one bonus I would not use (damps) due to my ECM like style. So the same setup will occure 4xHypnos Multispecs on the Arazu with my webber and scrambler/disruptor. Now lets look at the low slots, i'll be damned 4 low slots to squeeze a tank on or utility (being blasters are heavy). Then on top of all that it actually also has a 40m3 drone bay.
So why are you downing gallante again? It looks great and I would use it too. There is no reason I couldn't do the same pvp ratio (even if that's not what the recons were made for) with the Arazu as I do with my Rapier. They're both great ships. To think otherwise is to say the Griffin wont eat you inty. =)
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Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2006.03.31 00:53:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Ithildin
You can warp to cans from other people's corps. I do it all the time.
The only thing you can't warp to (that you're normally allowed to warp to) within the same grid and outside 150km is bookmarks.
Hit the approach button and then be amazed as you're wisked away in warp...
---
Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.31 00:58:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Ithildin
You can warp to cans from other people's corps. I do it all the time.
The only thing you can't warp to (that you're normally allowed to warp to) within the same grid and outside 150km is bookmarks.
Hit the approach button and then be amazed as you're wisked away in warp...
I'll have to test that one, but I always assumed that this was the case.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Shar Gath
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Posted - 2006.03.31 09:40:00 -
[53]
I would like to know also why falcon has no drone bay. While it has lowest hi-slot dmg output its the only one there with no drone bay.
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SMOKE BUD MON!!! |
Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.31 10:13:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Originally by: Ithildin
3x180 II
1xCloak
4xHypnos Multispec ECM
1xWebber (Bonus rocks and much needed)
1xWarp Scrambler
1600mm Plate
Medium Armor Rep II
2xUtility/Enhanments (WCS for my weak ass)
4xMedium Tech II drones or ECM
Well, very bad setup for a 110 mio isk Ship, what do you plan to kill? Lonly haulers? Every BS can tank you for a long long time, their drones will probably kill you before you got through their shields o.O.
And why is a webbing range bonus good on a ship you use at 4km? Together with a warp scrambler? Also you have a big exlplosive gap in your armor...
What you try to use here is a weaker pilgrim setup...
Jawas are lousy carebears :(
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.03.31 13:47:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Originally by: Ithildin
3x180 II
1xCloak
4xHypnos Multispec ECM
1xWebber (Bonus rocks and much needed)
1xWarp Scrambler
1600mm Plate
Medium Armor Rep II
2xUtility/Enhanments (WCS for my weak ass)
4xMedium Tech II drones or ECM
Well, very bad setup for a 110 mio isk Ship, what do you plan to kill? Lonly haulers? Every BS can tank you for a long long time, their drones will probably kill you before you got through their shields o.O.
And why is a webbing range bonus good on a ship you use at 4km? Together with a warp scrambler? Also you have a big exlplosive gap in your armor...
What you try to use here is a weaker pilgrim setup...
Would have to agree. The only way you could survive is if you jam the one ship your attacking and mamage to kill or jam all the drones before they kill you. EXP resistance is way to low on armor.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.03.31 14:20:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Originally by: Ithildin
P.S. the ECM Rapier described has cap problems, but I see what you mean.
Cap problems on what? There is no cap problems for the ECM Rapier.............. Don't assume, it's bad for your health.
<snip>
Ok, I'll stop assuming and show you instead.
Rapier has a cap of 875 and 275 recharge time base. This means it has a cap power of (875*1.25 / (275*0.75)) * 2.5 = 13.25 capacitor units per second at around 35% capacitor capacity.
Hypnos multispectrals take 96 energy base to activate and last for 18 seconds. With skills and four modules that makes (96*0.75/18)*4 = 16 capacitor units per second.
So, each second you are getting a net -2.75 capacitor units balance on your capacitor at capacitor recharge peak. Using a fairly generous generalization on how your capacitor, and not even accounting for that long duration and cap heavy modules, as opposed to short duration and cap light modules, will break the peak recharge spot much more easily, we have that your capacitor should run dry (while running ONLY your jammers) within 200 seconds.
Shall I add your guns, tank, and webbifier, too?
No, I shall not, since I understand what you mean with your setup. I shall instead criticise you further for your unimaginably bad argumentation on what makes the Arazu good.
It has bonuses to: hybrid damage, sensor dampener efficiency, and disruptor range.
What on earth possess you to make a setup which makes use of, let me take a closer look... a grand total of nill bonuses! Verily, you can argue that the disruptor range bonus aplies, but you aren't making use of it. You also left it unspoken what to make of your turret hardpoints, so I'll give you that a grand total of three modules make use of the ships' supposed strengths.
The only thing that makes the Arazu great, in other words, is that it can use a covert ops cloak in order to sneak up on a target!
Well, I'll be damned. Why are you not flying a Pilgrim? It's got even more drone bay, a bonus (!) to drone damage, a very effective bonus to make all your capacitor problems go away, 5 low slots to tank, but only 5 mid slots - which isn't much of a drawback to be honest. I'll forgive you if you don't fit tracking disruptors since so few others do that - there's just so many better options and bonuses to use on a Pilgrim.
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Arkanor
Gallente missileboat might be cool.
Pod yourself till you got no skills.[ |
Tauge
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Posted - 2006.03.31 16:06:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Tauge on 31/03/2006 16:06:18
The Rapier is a nice ship. Its bonuses make it the ultimate inty killer and with the ability to put in 4 medium drones, make inty pilots have a pretty bad day. In the end though you either need to stay cloaked and pick your fights carefully or to be in a gang, and from what I've seen that's what the covert recons are for. You really shouldn't be soloing in a recon ship. That's the reason for their low dps.
Edited because I can't type.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.31 16:28:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tauge
Edited by: Tauge on 31/03/2006 16:06:18
The Rapier is a nice ship. Its bonuses make it the ultimate inty killer and with the ability to put in 4 medium drones, make inty pilots have a pretty bad day. In the end though you either need to stay cloaked and pick your fights carefully or to be in a gang, and from what I've seen that's what the covert recons are for. You really shouldn't be soloing in a recon ship. That's the reason for their low dps.
Edited because I can't type.
Rapier has no place in a gang, its wasted manpower 
Jawas are lousy carebears :(
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2006.03.31 18:41:00 -
[59]
I see a trend in the recons:
Caldari - Little damage output, incredibly powerful EW. Long range.
Gallente - Medium damage output (but not really), sensor damps and disruptor range should make it a medium range ship. Dampen + Disrupt from out of thier range.
Matari - Medium Range, higher damage output point defense. The "hold still while I make you cry" web + painter + arties = owie.
Amarr - Close range, medium damage output, nos bonus to reduce enemy tanking and guns, tracking disruptor bonus.
The long and the close range Recons fill thier roles well. The 2 mediums range recons are only mediocre because thier bonuses don't support thier ranges, which in Eve it is very difficult to engage in. Most fights are either long range or close range.
Suggested Fixes:
Gallente: Increase the Sensor Damping str bonus. Increase the scramble range bonus. If it can scramble at 40km, let it dampen effectively at least a couple of BS and orbit them @ 40km so that the BS have to move to it to try to engage. Forget the ROF bonus on the Gallente. Roden likes missile ships, give it a precision missile bonus (like stealth bombers) instead so it can fill a tackling/point defense spot. It's not like it will break any tanks with that ROF bonus anyway.
Matari - Tougher call. Increase the painter bonus. Like a lot. Part of the reason no one uses painter much anymore is that they don't provide a noticable difference. This ship is OBVIOUSLY designed for point defense. Make the painters give a WHOPPING big percentage so when applied to inties/cruisers 1 painter would actually make a difference (think like 80% here). This doesnt hurt larger ships becuase the upper limit on a sig is capped for damage anyway. Extend web range a bit more. Perhaps add a "+10km per lvl" instead of a percentage as someone else suggested. Perhaps give it a precision missile bonus instead of rof as well.
Amarrian - make Tracking Disruptors effect missile explosion radius. TD's are the only EW that are effectively useless against missile ships. They should do *something* against them.
Caldari - a small drone bay would be about right for some extra defense.
My goal is this. Recon ships EW should work so well on the ship that it would be idiotic to use something else. The fact that all the Recons fit jammers over thier racial specialties tells you how ineffective the others options, even with bonuses are.
Bonuses should combine to be effective for the actual engagement range of said Recon. The Arazu is a classic example of the bonuses not being effective at the intended range use of the ship.
Nyxus
Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.03 03:38:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Famine Aligher''ri on 03/04/2006 03:40:15
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Originally by: Ithildin
3x180 II
1xCloak
4xHypnos Multispec ECM
1xWebber (Bonus rocks and much needed)
1xWarp Scrambler
1600mm Plate
Medium Armor Rep II
2xUtility/Enhanments (WCS for my weak ass)
4xMedium Tech II drones or ECM
Well, very bad setup for a 110 mio isk Ship, what do you plan to kill? Lonly haulers? Every BS can tank you for a long long time, their drones will probably kill you before you got through their shields o.O.
And why is a webbing range bonus good on a ship you use at 4km? Together with a warp scrambler? Also you have a big exlplosive gap in your armor...
What you try to use here is a weaker pilgrim setup...
Sorry for the late responce been busy. I'll try to be swift and sweet due to the unexperienced pilots in the thread who seem to comment on ship setups they havn't flown yet.
Now Nafri why would you take a cruiser up against a Battleship in the first place. Cruisers can kill battleships but I guarentee you the Rapier will have a better chance than lets say a Vagabond. For 1 minus the extream luck of beating a decent or half witted battleship pilot in any cruiser you got to understand cloaking recons have little DPS. We all have 3 turrents ok? Maybe you would go up against a battleship with 3 turrents + drones but hey you seem to say the rapier setup was bad because a 3 turrent slot ship couldn't kill a battleship......
My first comment on why a Rapier would MAYBE if not all the time do better than as a Vagabond is because of this.
-4xHypnos or tech II equal IV-
Geddon - 80%
Domi - 70%
Mega - 72%
Tempest - 76%
Phoon - 78%
Scorpion - 66%
Raven - 70%
Not including V or Drones. In my experience thus far I've jammed a Scorpion one cycle the first cycle with just 2 ECM then with all 4 for 2 cycles when laying support for a alliance member. That's just the strongest ECM strength battleship in game that's non-faction mind you. Other battleships have been much better. None the less you will fail and DPS can't keep up with ECM percent and chances to keep you alive long enough to wear down there tanks.
I wont post up cruiser, assault cruiser, frigate, inty, assault frigs, and ect percentages being they're all 80's to 95%'s which guarentee's a jam on all ships lower than battleship rankings. There is a reason why my setup has 4 hypnos multispecs. It's called "Lockdown" and "undefeated".
Originally by: Ithildin
blahblah cap recharge on rapier not enough
Aiight big guy lets see here. The full cap time minus repair with everything going is 86 seconds before you have to cap one hypnos off. One thing you're forgetting minus the use of all modules non stop is. ECM doesn't need 4 modules to run effectivly each cycle. You can jam targets with 1, or 2, or 3, or all 4. So that 86 seconds prolongs way above simulation time. Remember my good friend, you don't spread ECM all at once. You go through it nice and easy.
Besides being wrong on that once again. I want to remind you that you have 2 utility slots in my setup. Those can be used for cap enhancements. Like with 2 cap power relays it's almost non-stop. Now I knew this and it was my original setup. I wanted good support for my ECM multispecs because like you I wasn't experienced and I thought it was needed. However again it's not. You wont run 4 hypnos non-stop unless you're fighting huge targets that fail (and or 70% jam sucess or less). Which unfortunaly vs smaller and of equal size ships as the cruiser is not happening. ECM is overpowered for a reason you know?
Alright, besides all that jive. Here is my DPS for Nafri being she was crying :)
180 II's with no drones (EMP) - 96 DPS
180 II's with Medium Tech II (Minmatar/EMP) - 156 DPS
Stabber with 180 II's ect = 189 DPS (to compare)
Like I said ECM is pretty overpowered. You can't fail with 4 ECM Multispec II's. Nothing can withstand it but you know the Hawk has before a time or two but damn the Hawk!
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Ginaz
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Posted - 2006.04.03 09:23:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Ginaz on 03/04/2006 09:24:56
Edited by: Ginaz on 03/04/2006 09:23:46
I have seen a falcon in action and its a very powerful gang support and very good solo, too. Sadly it lacks dmg and shares EW and Tanking slots.
I own a Pilgrim and this ship is something like a solopwnmobile. You can pick your fight. You can tank very well and with good drone skills, you can kill most BS.
It even stands against a Apoc with Neuts. Recently had this kind of fight. he couldnt break my tank since i disrupted him and i couldnt dry his cap so he tanked me.
That was some kind of worst case encounter and my pilgrim survived. Makes it a solopwnmobile for any pirate in my eyes.
Why did i encounter the apoc? Warped to a complex Gate and uncloaked accidently, apoc just sitting nearby and i thought "cool lets fight"
My fitting is something like:
2 Named Med neuts
1 Named med nos
1 cov ops cloak
1 AB T2
1 +2 Scramble
1 Web
1 Balmer TD
1 Caldari Jammer
1 Med repper T2
1 EAN T2
1 Kin Hardener
1 therm Hardener
1 800mm Plate
Somehow i think that gallente and minnie got the short end of the stick if you want to fly those recons solo.....
The Pilgrim is awsome and like all cov ops recons, you can travel in low sec with agg flag running 
-
Veto. ftw!
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Shar Gath
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Posted - 2006.04.03 11:22:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ginaz
Edited by: Ginaz on 03/04/2006 09:24:56
Edited by: Ginaz on 03/04/2006 09:23:46
I have seen a falcon in action and its a very powerful gang support and very good solo, too.
exacly in what doing solo is it very good? you cant kill **** in it and it even suck in scanning due to no scanning time bonus.
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SMOKE BUD MON!!! |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.03 12:07:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Ginaz
Edited by: Ginaz on 03/04/2006 09:24:56
Edited by: Ginaz on 03/04/2006 09:23:46
I have seen a falcon in action and its a very powerful gang support and very good solo, too. Sadly it lacks dmg and shares EW and Tanking slots.
I own a Pilgrim and this ship is something like a solopwnmobile. You can pick your fight. You can tank very well and with good drone skills, you can kill most BS.
It even stands against a Apoc with Neuts. Recently had this kind of fight. he couldnt break my tank since i disrupted him and i couldnt dry his cap so he tanked me.
That was some kind of worst case encounter and my pilgrim survived. Makes it a solopwnmobile for any pirate in my eyes.
Why did i encounter the apoc? Warped to a complex Gate and uncloaked accidently, apoc just sitting nearby and i thought "cool lets fight"
My fitting is something like:
2 Named Med neuts
1 Named med nos
1 cov ops cloak
1 AB T2
1 +2 Scramble
1 Web
1 Balmer TD
1 Caldari Jammer
1 Med repper T2
1 EAN T2
1 Kin Hardener
1 therm Hardener
1 800mm Plate
Somehow i think that gallente and minnie got the short end of the stick if you want to fly those recons solo.....
The Pilgrim is awsome and like all cov ops recons, you can travel in low sec with agg flag running
This is a joke right?
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Ginaz
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Posted - 2006.04.03 12:48:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Ginaz on 03/04/2006 12:49:24
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Originally by: Ginaz
I have seen a falcon in action and its a very powerful gang support and very good solo, too. Sadly it lacks dmg and shares EW and Tanking slots.
I own a Pilgrim and this ship is something like a solopwnmobile. You can pick your fight. You can tank very well and with good drone skills, you can kill most BS.
It even stands against a Apoc with Neuts. Recently had this kind of fight. he couldnt break my tank since i disrupted him and i couldnt dry his cap so he tanked me.
That was some kind of worst case encounter and my pilgrim survived. Makes it a solopwnmobile for any pirate in my eyes.
Why did i encounter the apoc? Warped to a complex Gate and uncloaked accidently, apoc just sitting nearby and i thought "cool lets fight"
My fitting is something like:
2 Named Med neuts
1 Named med nos
1 cov ops cloak
1 AB T2
1 +2 Scramble
1 Web
1 Balmer TD
1 Caldari Jammer
1 Med repper T2
1 EAN T2
1 Kin Hardener
1 therm Hardener
1 800mm Plate
Somehow i think that gallente and minnie got the short end of the stick if you want to fly those recons solo.....
The Pilgrim is awsome and like all cov ops recons, you can travel in low sec with agg flag running
This is a joke right?
Tell me more, seems you haven eaten lot of recon-clue 
Sure falcon lacks dps, it suxx solo and i dont know much about arazu and rapier
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Veto. ftw!
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Shar Gath
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Posted - 2006.04.03 13:19:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Shar Gath on 03/04/2006 13:19:48
Originally by: Ginaz
Tell me more, seems you haven eaten lot of recon-clue
Sure falcon lacks dps, it suxx solo and i dont know much about arazu and rapier
it seems so, at least bout the falcon.
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SMOKE BUD MON!!! |
Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.04.04 18:32:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
1xWebber (Bonus rocks and much needed)
180 II's with no drones (EMP) - 96 DPS
180 II's with Medium Tech II (Minmatar/EMP) - 156 DPS
Stabber with 180 II's ect = 189 DPS (to compare)
Just a couple question on the above things I have quoted. if i did it right.
You say webber bonuse is Much needed? Why is that if you are engaging your target up close? You have a cloak so wouldn't you just approch it until our in your desired close range? And in that case you wouldn't be useing any of the ships bonses besides the Cloak :(.
Now with your ammo and drones I just want to be clear. In the Guns your useing EMP Ammo doign EMP and EM damage? And the Drones are EXP? because I don't think thier is a drone that does all the damge types that EMP ammo does?(Maybe I'm missing something)
And at the top of your statment you say why this ship maybe better than a Vagabon, than at the bottom you give the Stabber DPS. So I guess I missed why this ship is better than a Vagabone because I know a vaga can tank a heck of a lot better and can do a lot more damage than a stabber.
Now I understand your case is stong for using the 4 ECM's but when stating a case please be detailed and accurate in your statment, otherwise it is not that strong.
*Jet some times miss reads things and doesn't understand the message your trying to get accross. So sorry if I'm slow..... (I think just got a new sig)
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.04 20:31:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Jet Collins
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
1xWebber (Bonus rocks and much needed)
180 II's with no drones (EMP) - 96 DPS
180 II's with Medium Tech II (Minmatar/EMP) - 156 DPS
Stabber with 180 II's ect = 189 DPS (to compare)
Just a couple question on the above things I have quoted. if i did it right.
You say webber bonuse is Much needed? Why is that if you are engaging your target up close? You have a cloak so wouldn't you just approch it until our in your desired close range? And in that case you wouldn't be useing any of the ships bonses besides the Cloak :(.
Now with your ammo and drones I just want to be clear. In the Guns your useing EMP Ammo doign EMP and EM damage? And the Drones are EXP? because I don't think thier is a drone that does all the damge types that EMP ammo does?(Maybe I'm missing something)
And at the top of your statment you say why this ship maybe better than a Vagabon, than at the bottom you give the Stabber DPS. So I guess I missed why this ship is better than a Vagabone because I know a vaga can tank a heck of a lot better and can do a lot more damage than a stabber.
Now I understand your case is stong for using the 4 ECM's but when stating a case please be detailed and accurate in your statment, otherwise it is not that strong.
*Jet some times miss reads things and doesn't understand the message your trying to get accross. So sorry if I'm slow..... (I think just got a new sig)
Yes a webber is needed even for CLOSE RANGE COMBAT. I can't stress enough the Rapier is a cruiser ship ok? That means it's prob not the ideal ship to fit against a battleship. What most cruiser pilots do is they fit "Anti-Frig" and "Anti-Cruiser" roles more than anything else. So why is there a webber on my Rapier if I have autocannons on? Well because it's needed to snare the target from
A) Stop them from getting on a gate if they engage (ECM stops damage)
B) Tracking issues with Autocannons vs Inty's (Yes it's hard to track Intys not webbed)
C) Drones/Gunnery can hit the target better
E) Snare approuching targets who don't have Insta's
D) Snare long range inty's/Frigs from above 10km (Crows example)
Please don't respond with a comment like "Well you need double web to be effective vs Inties".
For your second part on the guns/drones. I used EMP ammo as the gunnery ammo for the DPS statistics with Minmatar class drones which are explosive damage only. Not EMP damage Drones. I wish lol.
Lastly, I just used a Stabber as an example that had more gun slots than the Rapier and what there DPS was compared to the Rapier being cruisers are the typical target for a pvp rapier as well frigs. I rarely engage other HAC's but it's fisable and realiable being they too have weak sensor strengths. It's just more of a hassel being HAC's can of course tank longer than a stabber. Which means I could actually fail on my 20th jam cycle where as the stabber would be dead way before then. The reason I said a Rapier would hold up better vs a battleship is because a Vagabond would be dishing out great damage as well maybe taking more damage as well taking utility hits like heavy nos shots. A rapier on the other hand will have the power of ECM on it's side where it could jam the battleship and last longer in a fight compared to a hac. Damage wise HAC's will ultimatly suprass a Recon but the point is and it has worked before "Outlasting" the tank. I believe HAC's will be better vs more higher strength battleships and ECCM battleships better than my Rapier for the fact jam sucess is much lower (vs Scorpion/Caldari for example).
Like I said, ECM is very overpowering. 4 ECM tech II's is all you need to jam most all ships in the game. 4 ECM is all you need to jam everything below battlecruiser 90-100% fully every cycle. No matter what you think, you can't tank 3 autocannons + 4 medium drones before it fails. Just like a Inty can't tank 1 150mm Autocannon II from a Griffin that has 2 small nos and 2 racials on it.
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deathraider22
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Posted - 2006.04.04 21:39:00 -
[68]
Yes it is true the Falcon lacks firepower but I have successfully engaged cruisers and won on mutilpe occasions.(granted they are T1 cruisers). You just need to learn to fit the ship to do what you want it to. Im a cloaking ship so I can sneak up on you uncloak (with no penalty to locking time for the cloak=pure love) scramble and jam the sh*t out of them. Fitting missile launcher lets you chose your dmg type although with only 2 launchers you dont do much dmg but have you ever thought of fitting a med nos 2 in the spare slot its a long drawn out fight, well its not really a fight as the target cant do any dmg to you except for maybe drones but in my experience drones have yet to take me to armor or even close before the target died.
High:
2x named or T2 lanuchers
1xMed nos 2
1xcovert ops claok
Mids:
1xAB named or T2
1x2pointdisruptor
3xmultis named or T2
1xspatial (caldari racial)named or T2
1xsensor booster named or T2
Lows:
1xmed rep2
1x800mm plate
1xback up array
This is a proven setup for me time and time again. It also rocks in gangs.
P.S. posted with alt so you all dont know me setup when you see me. :) |
LordMordred
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Posted - 2006.04.05 00:07:00 -
[69]
I have to disagree on some statements made against the Curse.
The shield tank on the curse is infact very worth it for solo or small gang action. Using an all T2 shield tank I can strug off any turret ships damage long enough to suck it dry. Then staggering my NOS to easily get cap recharge off my target to counter any drones. Fitting all out ECM on it I have tried, I found I liked the tank + 1 Caldari racial better.
I also carry a Caldari Racial Jammer to aide in countering missile boats. Changing to FOF's takes time, and pilots will panic at times and forget. If your in a group by the time they change ammo they are most likely dead anyways.
Using a Microwarp( ) to dictate range, I have killed Cap boosting Blasterthrons 1 on 1 in my curse. Draining their cap storage from well outside their effective range then moving in when they resort to cap boosters. With an Alpha Cap drain of around 600 with 4 named or T2 NOS, and 1 named or T2 Neut, you love it when they cap boost. I have my nos staggered at all times, whenever I would see a huge jump in my cap from these blaster boats, I knew it was time to give the neut a cycle. Even with their web on me, by the time I slowed down enough at hugging range, their cap was gone.
The only thing I won't fight 1 on 1 really is a Cereb, as it is true, the Curse can not take that much of a beating for very long even with a shield tank. If I don't get a jam off on it my life will be over in no time. Same way with P. Cruise spitting ravens. In group action you just have to hope that if you are called your shield tank will hold out just long enough to disable 1 or 2 of them with ECM and NOS. While your mates kill, or jam the rest.
On the otherhand, I've gone 50/50 against rooks/falcons (that start off in my NOS range, one of the reasons why I fear the Falcon and it's evil bag of cloaking tricks). If I can survive getting jammed just long enough to get my NOS and Neut on him or even get off a jam with my Caldari racial... I'll usually win the fight, as they don't hold up that well under drone fire.
But to the OP, Recons are fine. Each has it's role, and combined they are deadly. Throw in some HAC's, and they are near unstopable.
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.04.05 12:49:00 -
[70]
Thanks for the quick responce of my questions Famine Aligher'ri. Just to be clear about the webbers I was not saying you do not need a webber for close range(I know how important a webber is) I was stating that it would apprear that you do need the bonuse that that ships gets for the webber since you are close range. From what I can tell a normal 10km webber with no ship bonuse would be just fine for your set up.
So I guess I'm just pointing out that you use none of the ship bonuses except the Cloak. Which is fine thier are many people using many ships that don't incorporate its bonuses.
Attually as a side note can you tell me on average how long it takes you to take out a cruiser, with that set up?
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.05 20:45:00 -
[71]
Last cruiser fight I had was I think vs goonfleet's new corp. It was 2 on 1 (Stabber/Rifter vs Rapier). The stabber died in like a min or min/30 seconds after I locked. Rifter went next and died like in 20 seconds heh. Didn't take long but I don't think they were tanked. The longest cruiser fight I had that I didn't even win was vs a F-E Millenum Thorax. I engaged him and it lasted a bit. He was target jammed and dieing but I had to warp because like typical F-E they can't fight without help.
To the webbing statement. I know it sounds right that a normal standard webber would do the trick but you got to understand if you come out of covert-op cloaking you still have to wait a certain amount of seconds before you can lock (Recab time on cloaking devices). Then you have to wait for your locking time which obviously stacks to around 9 seconds before you can get a lock on a inty or so. That's enough time to actually get out of web range of 10km and tackle you with warp disruptors (20km).
Due to the stunning performance of the covert op style. Most people are indeed caught off guard or stunned. Me being -9.1 makes it cooler because they see the blinking red lights just appear beside them and get stunned by it (deer in headlights). So if you happen to see something magicaly appear beside you. Don't panic, just jump! You have all the time in the world. =)
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