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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Ammzi
Love Squad Black Legion.
1682
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Posted - 2014.02.11 22:24:00 -
[391] - Quote
Cathy Mikakka wrote: You haven't said a single thing on how to escape except "call yo corp bros" one. Which makes no sense unless you want to gank the bumper?
And what risk do gankers risk while doing this?
Why should I tell you? That would be equal to asking a dude playing the market what is the best item right now to invest in. Why should he tell you and ruin his own isk making opportunities?
Trust me, I have had some really baller freighter pilots push me to the limit and escape because they were prepared and they knew their game mechanics. Even after/during bumping them. No way in hell I am going to disclose how though. :D |
Ronin Gold Solbor
Superior Ratio High Sec Dropouts
2
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Posted - 2014.02.11 22:31:00 -
[392] - Quote
Still trying to wrap my head around how getting 15 pilots to shoot and destroy a disabled (By Mechanics), unarmed freighter is PVP? I always thought PVP was a contest of skill against another equally capable and skilled player? This seems more like IED's or Seal Skin harvests. |
Ammzi
Love Squad Black Legion.
1682
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 22:38:00 -
[393] - Quote
It's in the name. Player versus Player.
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Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
1059
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Posted - 2014.02.11 22:41:00 -
[394] - Quote
Ronin Gold Solbor wrote:Still trying to wrap my head around how getting 15 pilots to shoot and destroy a disabled (By Mechanics), unarmed freighter is PVP? I always thought PVP was a contest of skill against another equally capable and skilled player? This seems more like IED's or Seal Skin harvests.
in the words of Jimmy Valmer: No, you ******!! EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY?No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided""So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time" |
Batelle
Komm susser Tod
1665
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 22:44:00 -
[395] - Quote
Kenrailae wrote:I just wanna clear up one MASSIVE common misconception in this thread:
Ganker's motives for arguing against a change are purer than your motives for arguing for a change.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Also, ganking a freighter isn't any harder than sitting on a titan waiting to bridge onto a ratter or 3-man gatecamp. If said freighter is also getting bumped to ****, its even easier. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Estrella Sheikh
Apex Inc Carthage Empires
28
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Posted - 2014.02.11 23:55:00 -
[396] - Quote
Travasty Space wrote:Estrella Sheikh wrote:You see the problem here right? That titan was not tackled by a bumper. Even worse the titan has a slowcat fleet with him, I imagine he would have proper subcap support, Why in the world would a non-aggressing bumper be left to live In a low/null-sec area and just completely ignored? Also in this context the titan can also waste a DD if he's that scared. "Bumping has been employed in the destruction of numerous titans to prevent them from aligning to warp. It was also the only way to prevent a mothership from escaping in low security space prior to the invention of Heavy Interdictors with their focused warp disruption fields." Just highlighting the important bits.
I didn't miss that, Bumping is working as intended. You're talking about tens to hundreds of people bumping a titan to prevent it from warping, in either non-empire or low security space. We're talking about OP's select situation of one noobship preventing a freighter.
It's not broken man, Sorry to say.
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Cathy Mikakka
Schroedingers Fluffy Kitty Asylum Ravens Misfits
1
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Posted - 2014.02.12 01:02:00 -
[397] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:Cathy Mikakka wrote: You haven't said a single thing on how to escape except "call yo corp bros" one. Which makes no sense unless you want to gank the bumper?
And what risk do gankers risk while doing this?
Why should I tell you? That would be equal to asking a dude playing the market what is the best item right now to invest in. Why should he tell you and ruin his own isk making opportunities? Trust me, I have had some really baller freighter pilots push me to the limit and escape because they were prepared and they knew their game mechanics. Even after/during bumping them. No way in hell I am going to disclose how though. :D Sigh, the lengths people will go to keep their favorite thing in the game, lying and all. |
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
70
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Posted - 2014.02.12 02:13:00 -
[398] - Quote
Estrella Sheikh wrote:Travasty Space wrote:Estrella Sheikh wrote:You see the problem here right? That titan was not tackled by a bumper. Even worse the titan has a slowcat fleet with him, I imagine he would have proper subcap support, Why in the world would a non-aggressing bumper be left to live In a low/null-sec area and just completely ignored? Also in this context the titan can also waste a DD if he's that scared. "Bumping has been employed in the destruction of numerous titans to prevent them from aligning to warp. It was also the only way to prevent a mothership from escaping in low security space prior to the invention of Heavy Interdictors with their focused warp disruption fields." Just highlighting the important bits. I didn't miss that, Bumping is working as intended. You're talking about tens to hundreds of people bumping a titan to prevent it from warping, in either non-empire or low security space. We're talking about OP's select situation of one noobship preventing a freighter. It's not broken man, Sorry to say.
Using many and needing many people is very different, you can bump a titan with noobships as well. Reports that I've heard of are that as few as 4 or 5 using approach will keep a titan bumped.
Edit'd for website glitch. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
195
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Posted - 2014.02.12 02:55:00 -
[399] - Quote
Batelle wrote:Kenrailae wrote:I just wanna clear up one MASSIVE common misconception in this thread:
Ganker's motives for arguing against a change are purer than your motives for arguing for a change.
Thanks for clearing that up. Also, ganking a freighter isn't any harder than sitting on a titan waiting to bridge onto a ratter or 3-man gatecamp. If said freighter is also getting bumped to ****, its even easier.
It's not about 'purer' motives. It's about people who refuse to adapt.
A freighter pilot has a plethora of options available to avoid being bumped in the first place. If they've not taken those precautions, nor taken precautions to deal with the bumper IF they get bumped, that is their fault. Much like it's the gate camp's fault for not checking some of the most over-used hunter alt's KB's before engaging, or the ratter's for not pounding D while ratting in unfriendly space. Stuff happens, and sometimes you can't avoid it, but the larger sum of the time you can.
You can oversimplify and be snide and obtuse all you want. That doesn't change a thing about the situation. You can learn from it or not. When you choose not to, I'll laugh at your Freighter loss mail just like all the others.
I will give you one thing though. Sitting on a titan isn't any harder. Most Low sec Titan bridges are just large scale ganks. You know, picking and choosing the fights you can and can't win thing.... but that would venture pretty close to strategic decision, which you seem to lack the concept of. The Law is a point of View |
Seras VictoriaX
Relentless Grind
39
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 03:02:00 -
[400] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:Cathy Mikakka wrote: You haven't said a single thing on how to escape except "call yo corp bros" one. Which makes no sense unless you want to gank the bumper?
And what risk do gankers risk while doing this?
Why should I tell you? That would be equal to asking a dude playing the market what is the best item right now to invest in. Why should he tell you and ruin his own isk making opportunities? Trust me, I have had some really baller freighter pilots push me to the limit and escape because they were prepared and they knew their game mechanics. Even after/during bumping them. No way in hell I am going to disclose how though. :D
Yeah ok, sorry no one believes you. And if your thinking of the logoffski trick, i believe everyone agreed that it was exploiting as well.
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Emiko Rowna
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2014.02.12 05:45:00 -
[401] - Quote
Ammzi wrote:People looking to nerf bumping are literally looking to simply buff freighters and make them more secure because they can't possibly warrant spending 1 PLEX a month to make their freighter 99 % gank secure against 10 other player accounts.
You are the absolute scum of EVE and against the very essence of it. You should be ashamed of yourselves.
"I am flying an expensive, harmless and slow ship with a very valuable cargo and I demand that I, me, myself and on my own can defend myself against 10 other ingame players/accounts - and I demand CCP do it for me. Why should I start a new account? Why should I bring friends? I am the VICTIM here, I DEMAND DEFENSES"
This thread would be half as long if all of the ad hominem attacks were edited out. If people would only realize that they diminish any valid argument they might have by resorting to person attacks. |
Emiko Rowna
Aliastra Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 07:56:00 -
[402] - Quote
I canGÇÖt help to wonder if after 21 pages if we are not all just flogging a deceased equine.
CCP could bring this to an end with a simple definitive statement but have chosen to remain silent to this point.
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Motoko Innocentius
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2014.02.12 08:53:00 -
[403] - Quote
I actually see no other way to get a definite answer than going out and waiting to get bumped, then petitioning harrassment after attempting to get away.
In the petition you can just link the gm answer thread and point to the line saying "However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis."
Guess this is the only way to get a definite answer. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2756
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 09:51:00 -
[404] - Quote
Emiko Rowna wrote:I canGÇÖt help to wonder if after 21 pages if we are not all just flogging a deceased equine.
CCP could bring this to an end with a simple definitive statement but have chosen to remain silent to this point.
GM Karidor wrote:CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another playerGÇÖs ship as an exploit. How many more simple, definitive statements do you need? Oh god. |
Lephia DeGrande
The Scope Gallente Federation
234
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 10:12:00 -
[405] - Quote
Motoko Innocentius wrote:I actually see no other way to get a definite answer than going out and waiting to get bumped, then petitioning harrassment after attempting to get away.
In the petition you can just link the gm answer thread and point to the line saying "However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis."
Guess this is the only way to get a definite answer.
Definite answer with case by case judgments? |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16693
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 10:21:00 -
[406] - Quote
Emiko Rowna wrote:I canGÇÖt help to wonder if after 21 pages if we are not all just flogging a deceased equine.
CCP could bring this to an end with a simple definitive statement but have chosen to remain silent to this point.
I can't help wondering why many of you seem to have an issue with reading and/or comprehension. They have given a simple and definitive statement. Not only is the horse dead, it's been buried and the grave stone has moss growing on it. If you read the epitaph it says the following:
CCP considersthe act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player's ship as an exploit.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Motoko Innocentius
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2014.02.12 10:27:00 -
[407] - Quote
Mag's, yes thats a definite answer, but then you'll yield to the fact that bumping a freighter again after it has attempted to get away makes concequent bumps harrassment? Thats said there also, "persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment"
Thats what the answer must be about, or is that what it is ? What effort means hasn't been in anyway said. |
Mag's
the united SCUM.
16694
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 10:36:00 -
[408] - Quote
Motoko Innocentius wrote:Mag's, yes thats a definite answer, but then you'll yield to the fact that bumping a freighter again after it has attempted to get away makes concequent bumps harrassment? Thats said there also, "persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment"
Thats what the answer must be about, or is that what it is ? What effort means hasn't been in anyway said. No I won't yield to that as they also cover that. Also read the evesearch link I posted on the last page. Then scroll down to I think post 1164.
Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Your Dad Naked
State War Academy Caldari State
61
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 11:09:00 -
[409] - Quote
The real exploit is the fact that by bumping someone they are in affect achieving the exact same thing a warp scram/disrupter does. Activating modules on someone does not in itself induce Concord hence why you can activate remote reps and such. The real issue is aggression: Engaging in aggression against another capsuleer is what causes the Concord response.
Bumping a freighter is an aggressive act, no one would deny that. It achieves the identical result of a warp scram which everyone would agree should result in a criminal flag. Thus it is quite illogical to not see how the same thing should apply to bumping out of alignment.
The reasonable arguments against are the ones that state: - ugly looking undocks - inability to use bumping as a mechanic at all - any suspect bumping solution would make people inadvertently go suspect.
Thus there is a two part solution to this entire problem:
1) Ships should pass through one another in hi-sec unless in fleet, in corp, in war, in a limited engagement, or where one party is suspect. 2) Ships should be able to turn suspect with the click of the button.
The result is gankers can still bump freighters out of alignment, however must enable a suspect flag in order to do so. This gives the player being bumped a tool to retaliate with, which is very important in keeping freighter bumping balanced.
Even if you don't think bumping is an exploit, I don't know how anyone could argue the approach above isn't more balanced at the very least. |
Motoko Innocentius
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2014.02.12 11:11:00 -
[410] - Quote
Oh well, that clearly sais it's ok to bump for indefinite time, good of you to take the time to dig that answer up. Now if ccp would've just said that in the first place there'd be no point in even starting this thread. Guess i'll start bumping too then :) |
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Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
195
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Posted - 2014.02.12 11:46:00 -
[411] - Quote
Your Dad Naked wrote:The real exploit is the fact that by bumping someone they are in affect achieving the exact same thing a warp scram/disrupter does. Activating modules on someone does not in itself induce Concord hence why you can activate remote reps and such. The real issue is aggression: Engaging in aggression against another capsuleer is what causes the Concord response.
Bumping a freighter is an aggressive act, no one would deny that. It achieves the identical result of a warp scram which everyone would agree should result in a criminal flag. Thus it is quite illogical to not see how the same thing should apply to bumping out of alignment.
The bumping makes you suspect solution has been presented before; where ships in hi-sec pass through one another by default. The reasonable arguments against are the ones that state: - inability to use bumping as a mechanic at all (think mining fleets) - any suspect bumping solution would make people inadvertently go suspect.
Thus there is a two part solution to this entire problem: 1) Ships should pass through one another in hi-sec unless in fleet, in corp, in war, in a limited engagement, or where one party is suspect. 2) Ships should be able to turn suspect with the click of the button.
The result is gankers can still bump freighters out of alignment, however must enable a suspect flag in order to do so. This gives the player being bumped a tool to retaliate with, which is very important in keeping freighter bumping balanced.
Even if you don't think bumping is an exploit, I don't know how anyone could argue the approach above isn't more balanced at the very least.
Because any time you add another artificial flag it's not balanced. The goal is to reduce the artificial flags with real(in a game context), viable mechanics. Suddenly phase morphing erry ship in high sec is not a real(in a game context), viable mechanic. Your statement is just another 'I don't want to be pro-active about the situation, I just want other people to take care of my problem for me' statement. That's why any change to freighters that allowed modules that could put the total cargo over 1 mil m3 would have to be accompanied with a reduction in freighter capacity, so there wasn't a 'Oh you can't put that there' artificial flag implemented on top of it.
To be completely honest, you should be able to see which ships looks suspicious on a gate as soon as you arrive(Any frigate sitting at 0 in the gate, not moving, who may or may not yellow box you, depending on how good he is, for example). When those ships are there, you should also take precautions to avoid being their target, not just continue on like nothing happened. This 'Ships pass through each other is just silly. The Law is a point of View |
Nag'o
Cuisinart Inc. Insidious Empire
56
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Posted - 2014.02.12 11:56:00 -
[412] - Quote
I can't help but feel that this issue is strongly attached to the bad physics design that makes bigger ships have less attrition than smaller ships. I've discussed this in another thread. It's one of those things that, regardless of all the HTFU talk, makes ppl like the game a little less.
I don't want for freighters to be less vulnerable but this mechanic is ridiculous IMO. In a competitive game actions that prevents another player to counteract are aggressive actions. Freighter bumping is an exploit because EvE mechanics doesn't have the means to understand that this is preventing a player to counteract. And it's completly different from miner bumping. The miner can counter bumping with little effort by just keeping an eye on his ship. The freighter pilot needs at least another player in a different ship to help him counter a mach bumping him out of alignment indifinitely. Brain hackz0r. Execute schizophrenia virus. Hyper-phishing activated. Downloading reality. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2758
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 11:57:00 -
[413] - Quote
Your Dad Naked wrote:It achieves the identical result of a warp scram No it doesn't, not in any way at all.
Quote:The result is gankers can still bump freighters out of alignment, however must enable a suspect flag in order to do so. This gives the player being bumped a tool to retaliate with, which is very important in keeping freighter bumping balanced.
Even if you don't think bumping is an exploit, I don't know how anyone could argue the approach above isn't more balanced at the very least. It's not balanced because you've made no mention of nerfing freighters to compensate for the increased difficulty in ganking them. There's no balance there, only increased safety for freighter pilots. Oh god. |
Motoko Innocentius
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2014.02.12 12:05:00 -
[414] - Quote
I don't see how changing the mechanics would solve anything without breaking a whole lot of other things, from my point of view it's just annoying that someone can keep you bumped forever as a freighter can do nothing about it.
If i want to move high value ****, I'll just use a jf with a cyno ready in lsec, but if i'm moving stuff that takes the whole damn much cargo space with little value i'll use my freighter. Ganking it has no profitability, but for someone to just be able to keep it in place without any reason is dumb especially as i can't retaliate. Hell i've had my empty freighter bumped for a while, just for kicks or something.
Like i've said tons of times already, ganking is fine and bumping isn't required for it, the option to keep someone locked out for as long as you want is not. So it pretty much boils down to someone wanting to keep this bumping stuff as a hobby, and lazy gankers to get some kills. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
937
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 12:10:00 -
[415] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Your Dad Naked wrote:It achieves the identical result of a warp scram No it doesn't, not in any way at all. 'External forces are preventing you from warping at this time.' Warp scram, bumping same thing, you just don't get the message when your getting bumped.
Riot Girl wrote:Quote:The result is gankers can still bump freighters out of alignment, however must enable a suspect flag in order to do so. This gives the player being bumped a tool to retaliate with, which is very important in keeping freighter bumping balanced.
Even if you don't think bumping is an exploit, I don't know how anyone could argue the approach above isn't more balanced at the very least. It's not balanced because you've made no mention of nerfing freighters to compensate for the increased difficulty in ganking them. There's no balance there, only increased safety for freighter pilots. Are freighters in Low/Nul sec different than the ones in high sec? Is that why you can kill a Bumper in low/Nul but not in High sec? Because the freighters are different? The difficulty in ganking something increases only because the aggression rules of high sec are not being subverted. So in essence it's not making it more difficult it's just making it as difficult as it is supposed to be.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2758
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 12:12:00 -
[416] - Quote
Motoko Innocentius wrote:ganking is fine and bumping isn't required for it. It's required because the alternatives don't offer enough incentive to gankers.
Oh god. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
195
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Posted - 2014.02.12 12:14:00 -
[417] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Your Dad Naked wrote:It achieves the identical result of a warp scram No it doesn't, not in any way at all. 'External forces are preventing you from warping at this time.' Warp scram, bumping same thing, you just don't get the message when your getting bumped. Riot Girl wrote:Quote:The result is gankers can still bump freighters out of alignment, however must enable a suspect flag in order to do so. This gives the player being bumped a tool to retaliate with, which is very important in keeping freighter bumping balanced.
Even if you don't think bumping is an exploit, I don't know how anyone could argue the approach above isn't more balanced at the very least. It's not balanced because you've made no mention of nerfing freighters to compensate for the increased difficulty in ganking them. There's no balance there, only increased safety for freighter pilots. Are freighters in Low/Nul sec different than the ones in high sec? Is that why you can kill a Bumper in low/Nul but not in High sec? Because the freighters are different? The difficulty in ganking something increases only because the aggression rules of high sec are not being subverted. So in essence it's not making it more difficult it's just making it as difficult as it is supposed to be.
Lol.
Just sayin'.
A Freighter pilot isn't killing a bumper any day of the week in any sec status. Lol. His friend might. But then again... most high sec freighters don't travel with friends. Please keep producing comic gold like this. The Law is a point of View |
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
2758
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Posted - 2014.02.12 12:20:00 -
[418] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:'External forces are preventing you from warping at this time.' Warp scram, bumping same thing, you just don't get the message when your getting bumped. That's because bumping isn't scramming. Nothing is preventing you from warping.
Quote:The difficulty in ganking something increases only because the aggression rules of high sec are not being subverted They're not being subverted anyway. Gankers don't need to suicide in low/null and can use better ships for the task without losing them, they can't do that in high sec so it's already quite a lot more difficult.
Quote:So in essence it's not making it more difficult it's just making it as difficult as it is supposed to be. According to who? Oh god. |
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
937
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 12:51:00 -
[419] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Goldiiee wrote:'External forces are preventing you from warping at this time.' Warp scram, bumping same thing, you just don't get the message when your getting bumped. That's because bumping isn't scramming. Nothing is preventing you from warping. Quote:The difficulty in ganking something increases only because the aggression rules of high sec are not being subverted They're not being subverted anyway. Gankers don't need to suicide in low/null and can use better ships for the task without losing them, they can't do that in high sec so it's already quite a lot more difficult. Quote:So in essence it's not making it more difficult it's just making it as difficult as it is supposed to be. According to who? According to Concords aggression triggers, Warp scammed would trigger it, bumped does not but has the same effect. Nothing to warp to in your direction of travel means you don't warp regardless of your piloting skills till the direction of travel is corrected.
But you know all this already, it just doesn't support your argument so you dismiss it and keep screaming into the mic.
Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another. |
Kenrailae
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
195
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Posted - 2014.02.12 12:58:00 -
[420] - Quote
Goldiiee wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Goldiiee wrote:'External forces are preventing you from warping at this time.' Warp scram, bumping same thing, you just don't get the message when your getting bumped. That's because bumping isn't scramming. Nothing is preventing you from warping. Quote:The difficulty in ganking something increases only because the aggression rules of high sec are not being subverted They're not being subverted anyway. Gankers don't need to suicide in low/null and can use better ships for the task without losing them, they can't do that in high sec so it's already quite a lot more difficult. Quote:So in essence it's not making it more difficult it's just making it as difficult as it is supposed to be. According to who? According to Concords aggression triggers, Warp scammed would trigger it, bumped does not but has the same effect. Nothing to warp to in your direction of travel means you don't warp regardless of your piloting skills till the direction of travel is corrected. But you know all this already, it just doesn't support your argument so you dismiss it and keep screaming into the mic.
I don't often use warp disruption equipment.... but when I do, I warp Scam.
+1 for continuing to produce Comic Gold.
Point is you shouldn't be bumped to begin with, and if you haven't taken the necessary precautions to prevent you form being bumped then it's your fault your in the situation.
The Law is a point of View |
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