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A Comprehensive New Player Guide to Tanking

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Barak Smaug	Posted - 2006.04.06 21:08:00 - [31] wow! brilliant - this is just what im looking for! I was having trouble with shield tanking on my caracal and this guide has really cleared things up for me
Friedrick Psitalon	Posted - 2006.04.06 23:55:00 - [32] Glad to help out. :) I'll be editing it (again) to fix those few errors in a day or two. :) _______________________________________________ The Dead Parrot Shoppe is always looking for players, new and old, who value intelligence, humor, and fun over ego, kills, and skills. Contact me. :)
Lord Fovant	Posted - 2006.04.07 00:10:00 - [33] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right im a minmarta and hav just started play a few days ago. I want to progress to having a assult ship or covert opps ship and need level 5 firget to hav them. Thats no prob coz im on level 4. The prob i hav is iv heard people talk about increasing your learing skill speeds up your skill learing but iv got no learing skill, also i dont have loads of skill options such as missiles or shields. How do i get them? Jim
Raksan Ibid	Posted - 2006.04.07 03:11:00 - [34] Excellent writeup, thank you. This is just the kind of thing I needed to go from being slightly confused by the whole concept to feeling like I have a good basic understanding of what it's all about. One minor quibble, your percentages are off in your resistance example. 4800 damage reduced by 60% is only 2880 damage, not enough to knock down 3000 shields. The correct math is to divide the shield value by the resistance percentage. In this case 3000 / 0.6 = 5000.
Voculus	Posted - 2006.04.07 07:46:00 - [35] I've been playing for 4 months and my tanks have always sucked. My ratting Cyclone was BBQed by a single Crow a short while back in under 60 seconds! So for dunces like me, this is a truly excellent, excellent guide! My many thanks!
Hoshi	Posted - 2006.04.07 11:01:00 - [36] Originally by: Raksan Ibid Excellent writeup, thank you. This is just the kind of thing I needed to go from being slightly confused by the whole concept to feeling like I have a good basic understanding of what it's all about. One minor quibble, your percentages are off in your resistance example. 4800 damage reduced by 60% is only 2880 damage, not enough to knock down 3000 shields. The correct math is to divide the shield value by the resistance percentage. In this case 3000 / 0.6 = 5000. While his math is wrong so is yours, you need to divied the shield by the unresisted portion so 60% resistance on 3000 shields give you 3000/0.4 = 7500 effectice shield hp. Quote: More modules are never bad, but in terms of ôtrueö hit points added, you get the most defense by adding hardeners where you are weakest. 50% hardener to your shield EM resistance (base of 0) really does cut all incoming EM damage in half. 50% hardener to your armor EM, though, only cuts in half the damage that gets by your armorÆs base level of 60%... half of the remaining 40% of damage, basically. Here the math becomes interesting. This isn't really true. Lets take a look. 3000 points of armor. 60% base EM resist 3000/0.4 = 7500 effective hp, now add 1x 50% em hardeners. We now have 80% base EM resist. 3000/0.2 = 15000 effective armor hp. We have added 7500 effective hp against EM damage, while if you add an explosive hardener you would only add 3750 effective hp against explosive damage. So not acounting for stacking penalty each added hardener will have more effect than the last one. But if you are going up against things that does explosive damage that em resist won't do you much help. For PvE you mostly know in advance what type of damage they will do and can harden for it. For PvP you won't know in advance or can expect varied types, that's why multi resist hardeners (Invulnerability fields for shields and Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes for armor) are so popular and why people harden their lowest resist. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subhead	Posted - 2006.04.07 11:06:00 - [37] Just the thing I was looking for, thank you very much!
Disco Flint	Posted - 2006.04.07 12:33:00 - [38] great guide, just one nitpick: passive shield tanking is actually a very viable tank in PvP (for Caldari Cruisers / Battlecruisers at least) as it doesnt use any cap at all. Unless your adversary can break your tank by raw firepower, it wont fall. Ever. And if he is able to break through, there's still the ****loads of shield HP to churn through and chances are his tank will fail before you're below the 30% mark. However, I wouldn't recommend passive tanking a frig, as shield extenders increase your sig radius. Seriously, you'll get hit by turrets way too often and damn do (non-precision!) missiles hurt passive tanked frigs. The downside of PvPing with a passive tank of course is: you need ALL of your midslots. fitting a webber/scrambler/AB instead of an additional hardener/extender can very well break your neck. ah and another thing, the damage control mods are NO hardeners, they dont get penalized for stacking and they dont get the bonii from shield/armor compensation skills. But besides all that, a good and easily comprehendable guide to tanking, well done!
Neckbone	Posted - 2006.04.07 15:32:00 - [39] Slight nit-pick to your nit-pick: With a medium & small extender on my Rifter, it has a sig of 40m. A frigate can't put enough extenders on to really increase their sig that much. When you consider the impressive tank they pick up because of those extenders, I think it offsets the slightly increased signature. :)
Corbin Vahn	Posted - 2006.04.07 15:57:00 - [40] Great guide! At this point I've been playing long enough that ive figured most of that out (about 5 weeks) but i still learned some useful information. And i sure wish i could have seen this before i lost my first cruiser because i only had a small armor repairer on it Hopefully this will save some other newbie from making the same mistake
Friedrick Psitalon	Posted - 2006.04.07 23:07:00 - [41] Whew. And here I thought I fixed all the errors... a new version will be up tomorrow night, with all the stuff mentioned above fixed. Anyone have a request for the next "Comprehensive" article? ;) I'll get some corpmates or some isk out of this yet! Er...uh, I mean, more satisfaction out of helping folks out. (Some of each motivation, to be totally honest. Heh!) _______________________________________________ The Dead Parrot Shoppe is always looking for players, new and old, who value intelligence, humor, and fun over ego, kills, and skills. Contact me. :)
Raksan Ibid	Posted - 2006.04.07 23:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Hoshi While his math is wrong so is yours, you need to divied the shield by the unresisted portion so 60% resistance on 3000 shields give you 3000/0.4 = 7500 effectice shield hp. Try again. It's basic algebra. Come on. X * 0.6 = 3000 X = 3000 / 0.6 = 5000 In your example above, 60% of 7500 is 4500. Way more damage than is needed to drop the shields assuming no regen.
Neckbone	Posted - 2006.04.07 23:48:00 - [43] Edited by: Neckbone on 07/04/2006 23:52:54 Edited by: Neckbone on 07/04/2006 23:51:55 Originally by: Raksan Ibid Originally by: Hoshi While his math is wrong so is yours, you need to divied the shield by the unresisted portion so 60% resistance on 3000 shields give you 3000/0.4 = 7500 effectice shield hp. Try again. It's basic algebra. Come on. X * 0.6 = 3000 X = 3000 / 0.6 = 5000 In your example above, 60% of 7500 is 4500. Way more damage than is needed to drop the shields assuming no regen. Well if you want to know how long it would take to drop the shields when 60% of the damage gets through, you would be right. But since you want to know how much damage when 60% of it DOESN'T get through, your formula is wrong. So let's use algebra, again: x = DMG x * (100% - Resist%) = 3000 x * (1 - 0.60) = 3000 x = 3000 / 0.40 x = 7500 How did that go again? Oh, right. Come on. My math teacher would come out of retirement and beat my ass for making such a sloppy formula. It really should be: x - 0.60x = 3000 0.40x = 3000 x = 3000 / 0.40 x = 7500 Then I'd have to show my proof: 7500 - 0.60(7500) = 3000 7500 - 4500 = 3000 3000 = 3000 There. Now Mrs. Seifner can sleep at night.
Raksan Ibid	Posted - 2006.04.07 23:53:00 - [44] Originally by: Neckbone Well if you want to know how long it would take to drop the shields when 60% of the damage gets through, you would be right. But since you want to know how much damage when 60% of it DOESN'T get through, your formula is wrong. Whoops, you're right. Thank you.
Andargor theWise	Posted - 2006.04.08 02:46:00 - [45] Great guide! One point I think I am not agreeing with: cap boosters being only good for shield tankers. Being an armor tanker, I can guarantee that the fights I've lost were because I fitted a capacitor battery or cap recharger instead of a cap booster. Most fights between equivalent armor tanking ships will last until one of the opponents' tank is broken: they run out of cap. With a battery, you can't control that. With a cap booster, you can. Andargor
Tiberyya Za	Posted - 2006.04.08 03:40:00 - [46] Edited by: Tiberyya Za on 08/04/2006 03:39:53 Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon Anyone have a request for the next "Comprehensive" article? ;) How to avoid reduce damage by managing your velocity / signature radius and using electronic warfare modules. :)
Incident	Posted - 2006.04.08 14:06:00 - [47] Edited by: Incident on 08/04/2006 14:06:37 Originally by: Disco Flint Edited by: Disco Flint on 07/04/2006 13:49:42 .......ah and another thing, the damage control mods are NO hardeners, they dont get penalized for stacking and they dont get the bonii from shield/armor compensation skills. ......ah but you can only use one at a time..... "Only one Damage Control can be activated at a given time." If thats not a penalty I don't know what is...... There is only do or do not, there is no try.
Jesuax	Posted - 2006.04.09 12:01:00 - [48] Great guide... this really puts it all together. Wish I had this guide when I first started playing! Thank you!
Asmodi Mhul	Posted - 2006.04.10 02:29:00 - [49] Definately gotta throw my thank you in here! Great guide, very helpful and very much needed for a noob like myself.
Aerth Star	Posted - 2006.04.10 17:04:00 - [50] Originally by: Remedios Sonrisa The one bad thing about this forum is that there is no print version of threads, especially for nice ones like this. So, as someone posted earlier, a PDF copy or just some sort of .txt ASCII file would be great. It is a PITA to just cut and paste with the images being copied along with the forum text ): Nevertheless, very informative for a newbie like me! Let me go make my tank now! Actually, if you use NotePad (Windows OS), then ultimately you can copy in the same way, but grabbing the text only and then (when the whole article is together), select it all and copy/paste into your favorite Word Processing program. This works not only for EVE, but any forum that uses non-standard background hues... copy and paste and NOTEPAD is your friend. And it's a lot quicker process when using Notepad. To the OP, yes, this is a very well put togther article. Thanks for taking the time to write it.
Friedrick Psitalon	Posted - 2006.04.12 14:57:00 - [51] Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 12/04/2006 14:58:55 Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 12/04/2006 14:58:40 Okay, think I've got everything corrected. There is now a link in the first post at the top to an RTF printable (Thanks Neckbone!) version of the article, and I believe no more factual errors - however major or minor - exist. Now I have to decide between writing an article comparing weapon systems, a mission-running guide, or something else entirely... any votes? ;) _______________________________________________ The Dead Parrot Shoppe is always looking for players, new and old, who value intelligence, humor, and fun over ego, kills, and skills. Contact me. :)
Neckbone	Posted - 2006.04.12 15:28:00 - [52] Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 12/04/2006 14:58:55 Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 12/04/2006 14:58:40 Okay, think I've got everything corrected. There is now a link in the first post at the top to an RTF printable (Thanks Neckbone!) version of the article, and I believe no more factual errors - however major or minor - exist. Now I have to decide between writing an article comparing weapon systems, a mission-running guide, or something else entirely... any votes? ;) I'll update the .rtf as soon as possible today, depends on call volumes at work. Worst case I'll update it tonight. If I do it at home, I'll clean it up a little more, too.
Sythia Grae	Posted - 2006.04.12 16:32:00 - [53] Great info!
Manaswa	Posted - 2006.04.12 20:28:00 - [54] Wow. Thanks so much for taking the time to write this out. This was immensely helpful to me!
Friedrick Psitalon	Posted - 2006.04.12 20:57:00 - [55] Originally by: Neckbone Originally by: Friedrick Psitalon Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 12/04/2006 14:58:55 Edited by: Friedrick Psitalon on 12/04/2006 14:58:40 Okay, think I've got everything corrected. There is now a link in the first post at the top to an RTF printable (Thanks Neckbone!) version of the article, and I believe no more factual errors - however major or minor - exist. Now I have to decide between writing an article comparing weapon systems, a mission-running guide, or something else entirely... any votes? ;) I'll update the .rtf as soon as possible today, depends on call volumes at work. Worst case I'll update it tonight. If I do it at home, I'll clean it up a little more, too. Neck - Thanks, feel free to do anything you can with the formatting; I'm no master of BBS-formatting by any means. Now if only we could get a sticky for this... ;) _______________________________________________ The Dead Parrot Shoppe is always looking for players, new and old, who value intelligence, humor, and fun over ego, kills, and skills. Contact me. :)
Neckbone	Posted - 2006.04.13 00:00:00 - [56] RTF file has been updated, with a little schnazzier formatting.
Pottsey	Posted - 2006.04.14 13:21:00 - [57] ô(20 shield per second is unimpressive in most cases, but if youÆve got 80% resist to Electromagnetic, it would require 100 damage/second to equal the regen rate your 20/per is pulling in.)ö ThatÆs just wrong in so many ways which is why I dislike people doing shield hitpoints/shield recharge as average. Going by you setup with the shield flux and your average of shield hitpoints/shield recharge gives 20hp/s. You would find in real combat it would take over 250 damage to equal shield regen much better then 100 damage. 100 damage per second would hardly dint the shields and I would be surprised if it took shields below 90%. ôIn the first situation the regeneration of the ship is unimpressive û 900 shields in 900 seconds is merely 1 shield per second regenerated. In the second situation, though, the rate of regeneration is staggering ûô ThatÆs a little miss leading. If you have 900 shields and a 900 recharge rate you would almost never have 1 shield per second regan. ôTypically, a PSTÆr may use: - Shield Extenders; these use a lot of CPU (at any size) and grid (the amount of grid used depends on the extender size), butö You missed PDS modules which most passive tankers use. ô(1000 in 500 seconds = average of 2 per second; 1500 in 500 seconds = average of 3 per second.)ö Again miss leading as in combat you would never give that average. The average would be very different. Saying it has an average of 2per second makes it looks a lot worse then it is. The best way is to say the average in a short battle is (HP/recharge) 2 Mid battle is (HP/recharge) 2.2 Long battle (HP/recharge) 2.5 ôFlux Coils, on the other hand, are for players who are very confident that they have enough shields to get them through (maybe you have 3+ extenders onboard) and donÆt mind crippling that to increase their regeneration rate.ö Shield Flux coils are very bad full stop, you should never use them. I have yet to see a setup that benefits from fluxÆs over other modules. Not only do shield flux five less HP regen then other modules but they also lower the time you spent at peak regen which is bad. ôApproximately 25-35% shields seems to be the region of maximum possible regen/sec. This ôsweet spotö is where your passive shield regeneration is at its finest.ö* The peak is at 30% precisely and does not start to drop noticeable below peak until fewer than 20%. ôPassive Shield Tankers should train inàö DonÆt forget the gang skill that boosts shield hitpoints. ôAdvantages of Passive Shield Tanking ûô DonÆt forgot to list it makes you immune to Nos unlike other tanking methods. ôAs a rule, the fact that you canÆt heal as quickly, and that the healing is uncontrolled, means that PSTÆing is more a tactic for those who fight NPCs, rather than other players.ö ôPassive Shield Tanking is a rather unorthodox strategy probably best suited for PvE combat, but is very noteworthy in that situation.ö ItÆs great in PvP as well. Your high hitpoint pool means you already have more hitpoints then an active tank can heal in 2 minuets and as most combats donÆt last long youÆre at an advantage over the active tanking without even counting your own regen. Along with being immune to Nos and enough free cap to use Energy Destabilizer which drain 2.5x times more cap the Nos mean your enemies have to watch out. As for not healing as quickly you heal just as fast. Only instead of being once big burst every 10 seconds you get a boost every second. _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you.
Pottsey	Posted - 2006.04.14 13:22:00 - [58] ôAn Example of a Passive Tank System Ferox (Caldari Battlecruiser)û bonus to Shield Resistance Levels 1x Shield Flux Coil (A small hit to max shields, but worth it since you have so much)ö Please donÆt recommend shield flux modules. I fit your setup and with a shield relay I got 84.37 HP regen. With the Flux module it goes down to 76.5 HP regen and due to less hitpoints you spend less time at peak regen. Even a PDS would be better then the flux as you not only get similar HP regen but more hitpoints mean more time at peak regen. ôDisadvantages of Passive Shield Tanking Again, Hybrids aside, PSTÆing means your regeneration rate is absolutely out of your controlà and that can be pretty scary. It means you canÆt pour on the juice if youÆre getting clobbered, and it means you canÆt divert energy elsewhere if youÆre not being hammered.ö I donÆt agree with those disadvantages. The passive tank does not use any cap up so you can transfer 100% of cap somewhere else not only when youÆre not being clobbered but unlike the active tank you can transfer 100% of cap to something when youÆre being clobbered. ShouldnÆt that be an advantage not a disadvantage? I see no reason why the passive tank could not divert enemy elsewhere. As for not being able to poor on juice when your clobbered. ThatÆs not a disadvantage its an advantage as it automatically done by the passive setup. The more damage you take the lower your shields get so the faster the shield HP regen. Its basicly and automatic system that adjusts its self based on how much damage you take. Yes itÆs out of your control but as the shields hitpoints get lower the shield get stronger. Surly that being automatic is an advantage over active tankers who have manually judge and active the boosters. _________________________________________________ Nominate famous people in Eve who had an impact on you.
Jahah Smith	Posted - 2006.04.14 19:26:00 - [59] dont know if anyone has said it yet but for armor tanking you should get the armor compensation skills as well as they give a 5% bonus to armor resistance per lvl to passive hardiners and a 3% resist per lvl to active hardiners when they are offline
Neckbone	Posted - 2006.04.15 21:18:00 - [60] Pottsey is why I love passive shields, FYI. I didn't point out much of what she said because every time I do the armor tankers form a lynch mob and start flaming away. Passive shields in most cases will outperform active shields or armor. It's just the least efficient with slots.

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