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Xavu Ryn
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:39:00 -
[1]
It is seriously disturbing to watch the endless number of posts claiming that noobs can compete with veterans on an equal footing in EVE. I am going to make a good faith assumption and work on the theory that the people posting these statements truly believe them and are not trying to create an intellectual smokescreen to hide the obvious so that they can maintain their advantage as veteran players. The post below is the most recent one I can find on this issue:
--- Quote ---
Player: Rells
Posted - 2006.04.04 11:42:00 (General Forum)
I have played 20 different MMOGs and I have to say the game that is the most newbie friendly is Eve. So much so that I am actually astonished that there are no less than three, "Help the nbewbies by changing the game," posts on the first page alone. These posts come up every so often, perpetrated by those that know little about Eve in general and even less about PvP. Shall I enumerate where these people are wrong?
The Newbie in PvP:
You frequently hear that the newbie has no chance in PvP, the proponets usually comparing skill point values and goggling at the chances. This is pure absolute rubbish as my Corp has proven time and time again.
In DAoC or EQ or any other game, a newbie at level 2 couldnt kill a level 50 player. Not tens of thousands of them could because the level 50 player is essentially immune to the level 2s. Not so in Eve.
You give me 20 newbies two weeks old and three hours with them and I will put them against any 30 million skillpoint vetran in his BS. In fact, any vetran in his BS would warp away from that because they would know that they are hosed. Give me another week with them training the right skills and 3 30 million SP vetrans in thier BSes would die to the newbs if they hung around.
SP dont give you immunity in this game, they merely let you do more things and advance your ability to do certain things. This in no way precludes a newbie from killing a vetran. A vetran caught in the wrong setup at the wrong time will get toasted by the 2 week old newbie that has the courage to fight and the desire to win.
--- End Quote ---
Before I say anything else I want to state upfront that I totally respect Rells, admire his training program, and believe he is one of the people out there activily trying to help new players. This is not a flame on Rells, it is a comment on what I believe to be a mindset problem among many veterans players of this game, and I only quote Rells because his post so perfectly captures what I'm hearing other veterans say. With that out of the way....
How can anyone believe that the above post represents anything remotely describing new players being on an equal footing with veteran players? Rells says that a 2 week old player can defeat a veteran with 30 million skillpoints (which is a two year player at least). How does the new player defeat the old player? Well he:
(A) Brings <<<< 19 >>>> other two week old players to defeat the <<<< 1 >>>> veteran player
--- and ---
(B) Brings his <<<< CORRECTLY >>>> fitted frig or cruiser to defeat the <<<< INCORRECTLY >>>> fitted veteran player's battleship (I"m thinking Apoc fitted with 8 mining lasers here and no WCS. hehe)
This is new player equality? To all the old players reaching for their macro'd INSTA FLAME key (smile) hold that thought for a second. Here is the definition of equality from dictionary.com:
"the quality or state of being equal: as a : sameness or equivalence in number, quantity, or measure b : likeness or sameness in quality, power, status, or degree"
cont...
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Igankalbs
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:40:00 -
[2]
If we are going to claim that two week old noobs and thier ship/mods have an equal fighting chance against 30 million SP veterans and their ship/mods then the following would be true:
(C) <<<< 20 >>>> two week old players with the ships/mods/skills they could naturally aquire on thier own in two weeks have a 50% chance of defeating <<<< 20 >>>> 30 million SP veterans with the ships/mods/skills they could naturally aquire on thier own in several years
--- and ---
(D) A single two week old player bringing his <<<< CORRECTLY >>>> fitted frig or cruiser that he could aquire on his own in two weeks has a 50% chance to defeat a <<<< CORRECTLY >>>> fitted battleship that the veteran could aquire in his several years of play.
Any one here SERIOUSLY proposing that this is true? NO? I didn't think so...
Let us instead be honest with each other. New players are at a tremendous disadvantage when facing multi-year veterans because the veterans have better ships/mods/skills. Flat out, there is no question. If it were not true veterans would not be training up dozens of combat related skills, would not be paying insane ISK for HAC's, and wouldn't be paying 100's of millions of ISK for named/faction mods.
In reality what new players have are choices, not equality. New players can choose to stay in high sec space and avoid veteran pvp'ers (for the most part), they can choose to play non-combat related professions like traders or researchers, they can choose to join the Goonfleets of the world and have a few hundred friends to protect them and fight with them, they can choose to join an established older corp and have the veteran players of that corp protect and fight with them, ect. ect. ect.
But please, I beg of you, let us stop pretending they have equality.
PS: I am not a goonfleet alt ;)
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:44:00 -
[3]
we have quote syntax for a reason 
Win a Cerberus!!
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Stop spamming with "QFT" >:|. - Teblin
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Samirol
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:44:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Samirol on 07/04/2006 10:46:18
 Originally by: Igankalbs
PS: I am not a goonfleet alt ;)
but ONE of them is obviously an alt...
Also, rells is saying that 20 noobs vs 1 vet. 20 noobs will win, not a trained noob vs a vet. Rells is, in my opinion, saying that unlike in WoW, 20 1 million sp players vs 1 20 million sp vet, the 1 mil sp players will win.
Oh...IBDS
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Astorothe
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:46:00 -
[5]
Your right. Hell, if a two week n00b was able to compete with me (13 months) I'd probably quit playing. I want advantage respective of the amount of time and energy Ive invested in this game.
You know, every MMO game I have ever played has had a stream of people complaining about n00bs vs veterans. The argument of n00b vs veteran is old, irrelevant, and irritating (to me, I dont speak for the whole community).
It's akin to complaining that the office junior earns less money than the department manager. Hello?
Eve Corp for the Role Players Gaming Network Members |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:46:00 -
[6]
Bye bye. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Samirol
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:49:00 -
[7]
also, i was in a gang earlier this week and we (our 6 frigs and 2 cruiser) gang took out a fully t2 kitted megathron, who is very experienced, with only limited deaths. Saying that 20 new players can't do the same is crap.
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Lawrance Waterhouse
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:55:00 -
[8]
I think rells really stated, that EvE is more newbie friendly, than other games.
Not that EvE is the friendly Game in general :)
But anyway, just as a comment on the equality.
I had an Tournament Fight against an other Player, playing longer than me ( Time Difference was about 1 Year ). We used both Tech 1 frigates and Modules ( so here we have some restrictions to the equality, but let me continue ).
In this Tournament, we fought 3 rounds. I hadn't gave me any chance to get 1 Point, just doing that for fun :)
So I fitted my 3 Ships ( Frigate Tech 1 ) and fought against this ( in relation to me ) Veteran.
And believe me or not, first round was lost, second was WON :), third was close, but I did an small mistake, so third was lost.
Ok, conclusion of all :
I had a Chance in this tournament, I made a mistake, ok, but this wasn't related cuz I had played less time than my opponent, that was my own mistake.
I don't think that I would have had any chance in an other MMORPG, or ?
Greets
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:57:00 -
[9]
In my first week of PvP, myself and four friends in T1 frigs, all with around 3mil SP, took out a Vagabond flown by a player with going on 40mil SP.
It's about skill, not skillpoints.
Testy's Eve Blog!
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Uggster
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Posted - 2006.04.07 10:57:00 -
[10]
When I play Halo and get killed by a headshot, why cant the Vet have his gun jiggle about so I can play longer ????
It's not fair.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:01:00 -
[11]
Well of course new players are at a disadvantage.
It's like a midget fighting a boxer. What options do you have?
1. Numbers. Bring 19 midget friends with you.
2. Cunning. Tell him his shoelaces are undone and headbutt him in the nuts.
Everyone works on the assumption EvE should be fair. It isn't. Get over it.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:02:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
In my first week of PvP, myself and four friends in T1 frigs, all with around 3mil SP, took out a Vagabond flown by a player with going on 40mil SP.
It's about skill, not skillpoints.
and blobbing. which is no bad thing with new players vs vets
Win a Cerberus!!
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Stop spamming with "QFT" >:|. - Teblin
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:03:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Well of course new players are at a disadvantage.
It's like a midget fighting a boxer. What options do you have?
1. Numbers. Bring 19 midget friends with you.
2. Cunning. Tell him his shoelaces are undone and headbutt him in the nuts.
Everyone works on the assumption EvE should be fair. It isn't. Get over it.
you've missed the crucial advantage the midget has. even without shoelaces lied, his teeth are still at groin level 
Win a Cerberus!!
sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris
yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing
Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler
Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy
Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
Stop spamming with "QFT" >:|. - Teblin
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Samirol
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:05:00 -
[14]
tell him his socks are untied 
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Rells
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:09:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Rells on 07/04/2006 11:14:38
Well I dont know why this couldnt go in the other thread but I will answer it nonetheless.
Originally by: Xavu Ryn
Before I say anything else I want to state upfront that I totally respect Rells, admire his training program, and believe he is one of the people out there activily trying to help new players.
Thanks. Id advise you to take the course and learn why you are wrong.
Originally by: Xavu Ryn
How can anyone believe that the above post represents anything remotely describing new players being on an equal footing with veteran players?
It depends on what you mean by equal footing. If you mean that the noob has the exact same capability as the vetran then no. Obviously not or there would be no advancement in the game (and consequentially no game worth playing). Advancement implies some are further advanced than others.
What we are trying to get across to you is that there is no reason to think you should just sit in the corner and cry when that 30 mil sp battleship comes in. You CAN make a difference and be effective. In fact, the way in which you can do this is still my favorite form of PvP after 3 mains and this one with 7 mil sp.
Originally by: Xavu Ryn
Rells says that a 2 week old player can defeat a veteran with 30 million skillpoints (which is a two year player at least). How does the new player defeat the old player? Well he:
One on one combat in eve is 80% luck. If the 30 mil sp character meets you in his frig and you have a destroyer, he dies. If the 30 mil SP player meets you in a cruiser and you have a BS, he dies. If the 30 mil SP char comes in his turret BS and you have a fast tech 1 frig, the most he can hope for is a stalemate, neither of you can kill the other. It just comes up to chance of catching him in the right setup and right ship at the right time. This all assumes the PLAYER, not the char mind you, has training such as is provided in my course.
Originally by: Xavu Ryn
(A) Brings <<<< 19 >>>> other two week old players to defeat the <<<< 1 >>>> veteran player
Lets say you set up anti frig BS. You nwo get encountered by 5 tech 1 frigates all flown by 30 mil SP chars. You own them. They bring 15 and they kill you with heavy losses. Essentially the same outcome if the situation were reversed. The only difference is that in the scenario with 15 the noobs would suffer slightly more losses.
Originally by: Xavu Ryn
(B) Brings his <<<< CORRECTLY >>>> fitted frig or cruiser to defeat the <<<< INCORRECTLY >>>> fitted veteran player's battleship (I"m thinking Apoc fitted with 8 mining lasers here and no WCS. hehe)
There is no "correctly" fitted ship. It is all situational. The post and the permise assume that the participants are intelligent individuals.
Originally by: Xavu Ryn
This is new player equality? To all the old players reaching for their macro'd INSTA FLAME key (smile) hold that thought for a second. Here is the definition of equality from dictionary.com:
"the quality or state of being equal: as a : sameness or equivalence in number, quantity, or measure b : likeness or sameness in quality, power, status, or degree"
cont...
You are equal. You have equal amounts of decision making to make as we had. We are merely a bit furhter along the time line. If we reduce the game to the point where everyone was exactly the same equality, there would be no advancement, no loss, no accomplishment, no risk, no reward, nothing. It would be counterstrike in space; pointless and booring.
-- Rells
◄ Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
◄ Agony Unleashed PvP University:
◄ Click here to find out more!
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Baleine4Nerver
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:15:00 -
[16]
I dont understand these threads, and Im not flaming the OP.. but why should it be equal ? vets have invested 2 years + on the game.. I think they would be most put out after learning the game, investing time and sleepless nights.
Why should someone be able to just decide to play, jump into a BS or HAc and start at the same level..
===============================================
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beretta
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:16:00 -
[17]
SP isnt everything. fitting is also a big factor.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:17:00 -
[18]
Originally by: beretta
SP isnt everything. fitting is also a big factor.
Actually, mass mass mass is the big factor.
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Rells
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: beretta
SP isnt everything. fitting is also a big factor.
PLAYER skill, not character skill, is the biggest factor in pvp.
-- Rells
◄ Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
◄ Agony Unleashed PvP University:
◄ Click here to find out more!
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Leilani Solaris
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:17:00 -
[20]
Give me one reason why a 1 month old new player should be able to take on a 2 year old veteran BS solo and be able to win. If they could do that then what would be the point in spending 2 years training up to get better if a month old noob could kill you anyway. Besides, if the noob is smart and wants to go out and kill BS's solo they could just fit a ship with ECM and have a chance still. It doesn't take many SP's to fly a blackbird with ECM..
If a noob in a friggy killed my Apoc i'd be pretty damn ****ed off tbh.
I haven't got a new sig yet :)
http://triad.eve-killboard.net/
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Rells
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Leilani Solaris
Give me one reason why a 1 month old new player should be able to take on a 2 year old veteran BS solo and be able to win. If they could do that then what would be the point in spending 2 years training up to get better if a month old noob could kill you anyway. Besides, if the noob is smart and wants to go out and kill BS's solo they could just fit a ship with ECM and have a chance still. It doesn't take many SP's to fly a blackbird with ECM..
If a noob in a friggy killed my Apoc i'd be pretty damn ****ed off tbh.
A single blackbird could probably not overwhelm the tank on an apoc. It would be a stalemate.
-- Rells
◄ Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
◄ Agony Unleashed PvP University:
◄ Click here to find out more!
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Tasuric Orka
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:19:00 -
[22]
You, as a noob, will get owned by veterans. Its like that in EVERY game, why should eve be any different. Do you WANT to be able to fly a completely TII fitted HAC after two weeks? That's just silly.
No, you cant really compete with the top players after such a short time, that's why you try to expand your skillset and mine veld while you are at it for the money.
I did it, i didnt complain, and i think i do pretty well. I'll still get owned at PvP because i decided to focuss on industry for now.
Join a corp, fallow that pvp course of what'shisname,the former is recommended. They can help you, if you find the right one.. and there are alot of them out there.
________________________________________________
Hypocritical. |
Rells
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tasuric Orka
Join a corp, fallow that pvp course of what'shisname,the former is recommended.
Do both.
-- Rells
◄ Isnt it time you learned how to fight back?
◄ Agony Unleashed PvP University:
◄ Click here to find out more!
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Tommy TenKreds
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Xavu Ryn
The post below is the most recent one I can find on this issue:
Why didn't you just reply to that post instead of reposting it as the starting point of an entirely new thread?
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Igankalbs
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:30:00 -
[25]
It is so strange how the level of anger has risen as EVE has gotten older.
To all the people hurling hate my way saying "WTF man, why should a new player be as powerful as a two year vet?!?!?!?!" Good question, I have no idea, since I never said they should I'm not sure why your asking me this question.
To the people saying "We have a quote function you know...." O RLY? That is your carefully considered answer to my post. Thank you for your contribution to advancing the issue at hand.
To the person saying "My 4 ships beat 1 40 million SP player" gratz man, pls re-read my post where I talk about unequal fights do not equal equality. ;)
To people saying skills (playing skills, not the trained ones) the the key issue, yep I'm on your side. What makes you think otherwise, did you not read my post? But if a 2 week noob meets a 2 year vet and both have equal playing skills, on average its going to suck to be the noob.
To the people saying its random, you never know what your gonna be facing or how many your gonna run into in the wilds of pvp'dom, sure, of course. But on average that is all going to balance out. Why do you assume the god's of chance are going to load the dice in favor of the new players?
To Rells: I agree with your assertion that new players can act together (or with others) to actively assert themselves in EVE, and not be pushed around like helpless sheep. Your spot on, never said otherwise. What I'm talking about is how so many posts are presented as new players are the equal of vets and there thus is nothing in the game that needs to be change. At the end of the day, we both know this is not true.
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Professor McFly
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:37:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Igankalbs
What I'm talking about is how so many posts are presented as new players are the equal of vets
Where?
__________________
Inappropriate link description. --Jorauk
mods - pwning sigs since 1943 |
Hait
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:40:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Hait on 07/04/2006 11:40:37
----> Agankalbs
So what's your point - you gonna make one? |
Samirol
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:42:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Samirol on 07/04/2006 11:43:29
Originally by: Igankalbs
To the person saying "My 4 ships beat 1 40 million SP player" gratz man, pls re-read my post where I talk about unequal fights do not equal equality. ;)
So your rebuttal is asserting that EVE isn't equal? Tell me something i don't know
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:44:00 -
[29]
Why should newbies and vets be equal? Theyre newbies for a reason...
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Moghydin
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Posted - 2006.04.07 11:46:00 -
[30]
What would you expect? That 2 weeks old newbie would be able to defeat a 2 year veteran? What's the point in playing then? Souldn't you get anything for playing the game for a long time and gaining ISK, skills and experience? Balance between new and old players is fine I think. It's when veterans organize elite guilds and wtfpwn anything in sight - than it's dangerous for the community.
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