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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.16 12:17:00 -
[1]
Feel you've achieved all there is to achieve in the universe of EVE?
Frustrated by the lack of spoon-fed content?
Yearning for a Titan to chase with manic single-minded glee?
Sheesh!
You chaps that are bored really need to get stuck in to a very brutal war. Sitting there polishing battleships is pointless. Why bother spending the time in attaining such a device of wanton destruction without a goal and intention to use it? I sometimes despair at all the chaps who say EVE is content-less; I mean honestly, just nail your colours to a political mast and set yourself some real goals.
Earning a battleship? Yeah itÆs nice to look at I suppose, but get over it, the real attainment in this game is fighting wars and winning them. ItÆs not about building your battleships; itÆs about blowing up the other guyÆs battleships and listening to the lamentation of their carebear miners as you bring the war home with economic disruption and deep strike operations.
EVE is a geo-political simulator in space. The player-led regional powers we now have are the ones who are actually achieving meaningful objectives. Owning a shiny battleship doesnÆt mean youÆve ôwonö EVE and there is nothing else to do. It means that you have earned yourself a poker chip that can be risked in the greater game, or stuck away to meaningless obscurity in your back pocket while you blindly nose about for ôthe next big thingö.
DonÆt have a battleship (or donÆt want one)? Fine, you see a hidden truth already my far-sighted friend, because battleships can be destroyed cheaply, by cruisers and frigates, and hell, if you are winning the metagame by whacking the enemyÆs battleships with your battleships, you are aceÆing the metagame by doing the same with cruisers and frigates.
DonÆt dig PVP? Well join up with a crew that do and run the logistical and manufacturing effort for them. Your name will be sweet as sugar candy when the replacement warships come rolling off the production line. Or run intelligence ops, go scouting, run psychological warfare, run communications, handle diplomacy, whatever, but for the love of god get out of the ship garage and stop polishing your sensor clusters!
Basically, what I mean to say is this. EVE doesnÆt have to end with the biggest ship and the toastiest skill set. Once you are fixed for a competent ride and decent combat skills then the time has come to find a cause to fight for and die for and enjoy the ups and downs of the political process. Consider this insurance against cynicism;
Sooner or later you will lose your prize battleship, (or cruiser or whatever) to random gate pirates, to gang-ganking, to a glitch à yeah, whatever.
When you do, youÆll wish you had lost your ship in a fight that means something.
Pledge to a war my friends; strip off all the non-replaceable rare nonsense and insure that bad boy gunboat and go hunt for enemy in ranks of bright camaraderie! If you score kills it feels like last night at the proms; if you go down in flames you have the thanks and support of your fellow soldiers and the acclaim of those who share your cause.
A war that means something is the ôXö factor in this game chaps.
A ship is just a pistol and your rare guns are the bullet.
Falling in love with your piece is self love because the cold metal canÆt love you back.
Shooting a tyrant in the face?
Now thatÆs what I call entertainment!
(DonÆt have a cause? evemail me in game, IÆll give you one ;)
JF Public Forum |
Daesdemona
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Posted - 2003.09.16 12:30:00 -
[2]
I like that. Time to get some major conflicts started. 
Remember: War spoils and war payments are a lot more profitable than mining.
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Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?"
Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't"
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Dalamar Sarum
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Posted - 2003.09.16 12:30:00 -
[3]
Unfortunately Jade you are trying to impose a Role Play aspect onto a large group of people who have no interest in that or no ability at it.
I personally dislike (understatement) all these people who simply rush to the biggest ship ,never read boards and simply type 'I ownz you' in local or whatever they do.
Although the game is called a MMORPG (role playing game) there will always be people who dont role play and really thats up to them. I dont like and I personally feel reading the boards (summit mainly) and interaction with others is half the game.
I have a few alts , some of which are very experienced characters but still I prefer to conduct my business in Empire space as this is where the juicy RP wars and events are occurring.
I am an agent for my Family council and am currently very busy with many things - none of which involve rushing for a Titan or BS but for what its worth Jade , I agree with you and like your work.
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.16 12:33:00 -
[4]
I have a big ship I will crush you, when they release the next class of ships I will be one of the first to have one.
It doesn't stop me roleplaying.
I don't know why I made this post :(
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.16 12:37:00 -
[5]
You don't need to roleplay to achieve a goal.
Remember TAOSP from beta (some of em stuck with Evo)? i don't remember a whole lot of RP going on with them, but they had a lot of fun creaming RaiD.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.16 12:57:00 -
[6]
It really isnÆt just about roleplay; itÆs about the metagame, and the strategic overlay on in-game conflicts. The reason for joining an alliance and fighting a war may, at the outset, be simply to find a meaning for your play, and worthy cause for your endeavour. But soon it becomes more, much more than that.
Think about it.
If you are part of a successful regional alliance or power block then you have access to safe territory. You have a place to resupply and rearm. You have strength to count on in attack and defence. You have allies who will supply your war needs for near cost, and comrades-in-arms that well help you make good your losses. You will learn strategy and tactics in theatre; you will see aspects of the large game that you werenÆt previously aware of. YouÆll discover just how challenging crisis negotiation and judgemnt calls can be with billions of isk worth of hardware depending on your input.
(Think about the buzz of being the fleet commander who has the go-no/go choice on 25 battleships jumping to engage a hostile fleet in system. 1.5 billion chips staked on your call? ThatÆs a big-ass responsibility and will get your heart pumping)
All these things are hard core gameplay elements that any wargamer or strategy fan will appreciate.
Speaking personally now;
I donÆt run public relations for the NVA because I am interested in role-playing with Taggart Transpiratical. I do what I do because they are the enemy, and I want to see them crushed and broken to dust in consequence for their deeds in-game.
Promoting a cause is part of the recruitment process. I am both fortunate and blessed that our cause is entirely just and right.
So, anyway, I donÆt mean to sound entirely dismissive of the role-play element. It has a place certainly, as Jade I am roleplaying the fact IÆm an ex-amarri courtesan turned gallente bon vivant psy-ops gal. But our war isnÆt about roleplay, itÆs about playing the political game of EVE and fighting a hard core strategic war-game to the detriment of our foes.
Is there a place for both?
Hell yes, the very best wartime propaganda is creative and interesting. Dull responses and crappy flame-fodder is a one way street to losing the hearts and minds of the populace, but never forget that this is a competitive game.
The trick is seeing how to measure wins and losses against the fabric of the metagame.
Love and peace.
(PS Stavros à bring your Titan mÆdear and weÆll blow it up with 12 kestrals)
JF Public Forum |
Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:07:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Stavros on 16/09/2003 13:09:55
Ok seeing as you want a serious debate about alliances I'll give you one.
What advantages does a regional alliance give you?
A safe place? Wrong you just makeyourself a target, people know where and when to find you at your weakest.
Good mining? Even if mining WAS a good way to make cash, which it isnt, there are plenty of places to mine that arent anywhere near regional space, with the advent of the space platforms this point will be even more mute.
Better military? Maybe but as fountain has shown there is only evol in there that can fight worth toffee (and indeed some of them are repsectable pvpers) but the majority of corps that 'need' this kind of protection are carebear corps with little or no protection. Besides this better military is far outweighed by the disadvantage of everyone know where u are all the time.
I mean for example say someone wants to attack our loose alliance, where do they go? When do they go? Nobody really knows...
As for your strategtic commander stuff thats a total joke, when we go in we go in all on one teamspeak server split up into corp rooms.
Fountain has some kind of marshall system whereby certain players have 'general' roles over the rest of their fleet, yeah FAT lot of good it did them when 17 of their members took it upon their own volition to jump into death (however questionable the tactic they KNEW we were there). Small units are much easier to command and much more lethal in combat, even evolution adopted our tactics against venal rather than their previous SEND HUGE FLEET CAMP UR STATION FOR TWO WEEKS strats.
In short your post is inane and reeks of the fact you and your corp have the pvp and ecomonic experience of my left toenail.
You continually comment on matters about which you seem to have little or no clue about, french fancy roleplaying or not there is no excuse for this level of blatant ineptitude.
Stav...
(who doesn't have some catchy catch phrasey thingy)
Also my spelling owns, its the dictionary that is wrong.
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Miso
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:08:00 -
[8]
People just don't get it do they?!
Maybe there are too many subtle political machinations going on in Eve for most players to grasp or understand. Maybe some of the events going on feel a bit clique-y, and other players feel that they can't join in.
But when all is said and done, I think Jade is right about her "polishing battleships" comment. Eve needs flux, and change, and it needs a massive war.
And lets not forget, war is terrific fun. And highly profitable too. And you'll make new friends to show your enemies, and vice versa.
War is good. War is fun.
Kitchener out! 
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Dead
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Killash Larz
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:16:00 -
[9]
Jade - you've hit the nail on the head for me. That is about the most rousing speach I've read on this site.
I don't own a B/S yet however when I do maybe I'll come looking for you. Either to join you or fight you. Which ever way it will be a hell of a blast! 
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:21:00 -
[10]
Oh Stavros you are funny when you are being serious!
I wonÆt debate your points on safety, mining, military ops and such, because basically yes, you make some good counterpoints and only time will tell who is right and who is wrong. As for your force, sure, yep as well, you are basically the Mongol Horde, well equipped, and well led, capable of trashing kingdoms. Well done! ItÆs a valid strategy and one that worked historically. Still, one has to ask why the Mongols donÆt have a major voice in geopolitical interactions now-days perhaps?
On the tactics of big-ass vs small-ass fleets; yep, takes both kinds clearly but here I do have to make an admission clear to you my dear;
I personally donÆt have a clue about fleet management and IÆm pretty crap at PvP. And guess what? I leave the PvP and fleet stuff to experts. YouÆll note my post covered generalities and was a call for involvement in meaningful wars, not a treatise in how to inflict maximum fleet casualties by drone-lag-killing a warp in point. Those specifics too I leave to the experts.
Stavros hun, IÆve never claimed my corp and I are great PvP experts, were not, we are however quite good at over things. Find me claiming I can own you in combat and by all means laugh. (The titan thing was mostly a joke!)
As for commenting of stuff I have no idea about; well thatÆs your opinion babycakes, itÆs a free country.
As for crushing the NVA and handing the territory back to Taggart.
Aw shucks! Now youÆll have given them a new strategic direction.
Love and peace mÆdear (and death to Ayn Rand!)
JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:24:00 -
[11]
Oh Stavros ... say it ain't so?
Did you just edit out the "crushing the NVA and handing back Venal to Taggart comment" ?
Thats not playing fair m'dear! (Are you sure you're not Ragnar's alt) ?
JF Public Forum |
Iece Quaan
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:27:00 -
[12]
/shrug
Jade never answered my emails about getting involved in the VA war.
And I don't fly a battleship. =P
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/09/2003 13:49:48
I so did answer your eve-mails m'dear, and I invited you to take part (by direct communications as I recall).
But just so we are clear; NVA is encouraging like-minded volunteers to take arms against the enemy and join the fight against Taggart Transpiratical. I don't care if you have a battleship or not, whether its a cruiser or a frigate or whatever. NVA territory is "free-space" and should you wish to pledge your stength against our foes you will win our friendship and a good measure of respect therein.
JF Public Forum |
Miso
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:37:00 -
[14]
Jade - have CCP employed you yet?
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Dead
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Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:37:00 -
[15]
i knew you'd go for that one, dunno why...
anyway yeah well if you leave the pvp stuff to experts then you should leave the 'posting rubbish' on the forums about pvp to experts as well :P
Hmm that sounded much better in my head
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Luna
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:41:00 -
[16]
Great post Jade.....
Hey Starvos a regional alliance can be a ton of fun... It actually adds content to the game. The fight comes to you in a regional alliance and the people in your corp that don't like to pvp get to harvest some decent roids.
You have your own regional alliances all the time, you just happen to choose tiny regions (ie gates). I can respect gate campers because I think its very close to real life in a role playing sense. What I don't like are the A**holes that like to take advantage the weak game dynamics of jump in points in this game and attack people when the game has made them vulnerable... Or people that cause excessive lag just to help their apparently weak combat skills. Using the games weaknesses is lame but that is life I guess. It's not even really about whats fair but rather of being a decent person. Hopefully EVE addresses the issue..
Anyway good post Jade; I bet you have an interesting corp.... btw which alliance are you part of?
Luna
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Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:44:00 -
[17]
[Stavybabes wrote]
 Quote:
I knew you'd go for that one, dunno why...
lol, it was a sitting target m'dear. I might be a crappy pvp'er but I can hit cargo cans!
Quote:
anyway yeah well if you leave the pvp stuff to experts then you should leave the 'posting rubbish' on the forums about pvp to experts as well :P
Oh I do. TTi have got that angle completely covered ;)
Love and peace
JF Public Forum |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.16 13:48:00 -
[18]
Luna m'dear, Jericho is a member corp of the New Venal Alliance (NVA) ... you can read all about us here
Have fun!
Love and peace
JF Public Forum |
Elfman
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:04:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Elfman on 16/09/2003 14:04:46
For peeps bored with eve.
How about this.
Rather than trying to reach the end game why not sit back and enjoy the journey
Yep I dont have a battleship yet - yes I could have got 1 but why...
Would rather have fun annoying sinister/moo and loosing a few cruisers along the way.
PS Stav - watching your alt die and the fun and games after that finally let me get through the blockade after 15 odd attemps was fun can you do it again 
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Miso
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:05:00 -
[20]
There is a clear distinct schism in Eve between two banks of player types:
Firstly there are those that like acquiring things, making lots of money, have the best of everything and like shooting things randomly a la Doom. They view eve as a space game that you can shoot things in and make money. And it ends there. And thats fine.
The second group wants more from Eve - it was RP, storylines, player and GM lead events and content - metagaming.
The problems occur at friction points between the too sets of players. But this need not be a problem, as Jade points out. There can be some kind of reciprocal arrangement made in-game.
What gets tedious is all the mindless *****ing from both camps. There is room for both types of gaming and both types of players. A blend of both would make a great game even better. And I think that is what Jade is saying (I may be wrong).
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Dead
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Sarkos
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:07:00 -
[21]
Jade, I agree with you 100%.
EVE has always been said to be for the more advanced gamer. This is because a great portion of the game content is PC generated. Look around and you will see powerblocks forming and disolving. Wars are being fought and tide of power is in constant flux in EVE.
You don't have to be a roleplayer to get involved, though I find it much more enjoyable to do so. Choose a personal goal, whether attainable or not. Then work in game towards that goal. Talk to others, form alliances and even contact others that may oppose your goals so as to create a war. Fighting NPC pirates is not exciting. Facing down a fleet of PC run ships is.
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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Carp Riddell
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:13:00 -
[22]
Jade,
The problem is there's basically nothing out there for the very small corp or freelancer. Please don't just dismiss us like that, because there are quite a lot of us who've reached the stage where all that's left to do is join a large corp or pack it in.
Sustained PvP costs a lot of money, and you can't do it unless you've either got a huge pot of cash to burn ("I'll play for a few weeks then quit") or you've got people making the money for you ("I am in a big corp"). Piracy works perfectly well as long as you have a firepower advantage over your opponents ("I am a big corp, and we have some long-serving players"). If you don't fit the above categories, it's suicide.
If you want my full reasons, please contact me in game.
Carp
- Carp Riddell
- CEO, Innsmouth Shipping
- Proud Member of Curse Alliance
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Homo Erectus
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:17:00 -
[23]
stav I hate to tell you this, but Evol didn't adapt anything from you besides killing you by lagging spawn points. and that's just vs you.
the raider style killing done in Venal was not new. if anything, you got crap from us, that we used before you started playing. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:18:00 -
[24]
According to some, it's very much possible to kill big things in frigates.
I myself intend to try that this week or the next
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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PsyBlade
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:19:00 -
[25]
Jade:
You make a few good points, and I see now why you are a good Propaganda person (sorry proper word eludes me atm). Yet what you say is that we all should join into the whole of the eve community, true I agree with that.
But there is one flaw in your words. altough some of us want to join up there and are willing to try and make a chance keep in mind that there are certain things we as players cannot control. We cannot control the way other people think/react/play. Some of us like to RP the game and gain more knowledge about the eve universe, while others only want to get an Uber char. (nothing wrong there).
Yet there is also one thing you need to keep in mind, it's called CONCORD and the fact you can only go to war with 3 other corps. It would be a bad thing to go play tag in Empire space and then get blown apart by CONCORD just because your overall alliance is at war.
As for your remark about the fleet operations and blocking a system? they will never be save... you cannot block every jump gate into your system, it will be a game of hide and seek for the ones controlling a system (this might chance when the Player owned sentries come in play).
Jade, the reason why the Mongols never came to be a power nation was because Djenghis Khan died to early :) so ponder on that... it's not the army that conquers, but it's the leader that is able to keep the army together to conquer
Stavros:
I think that the PvP experience depends on the person and what they want to achieve. If you enjoy the killing of people then you will be dedicating more time to the setup of your ship instead of doing otherwise. (I admit that I am not a PvP'er now but that in the future I hope to trade blows with m0o). When you are willing to go for the killing and then wait for the whining of people, go for it! I think that everyone has different goals in the game and that that is something that makes this game fun
---
"Security against defeat implies defensive tactics;
ability to defeat the enemy means taking the offensive."
- Sun Tzu |
Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:21:00 -
[26]
of course you did homo...
monkey see monkey do..
well actually its more a case of..
monkey see, monkey ***** about on forums for 2 weeks, then monkey do.
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:22:00 -
[27]
Quote:
i knew you'd go for that one, dunno why...
anyway yeah well if you leave the pvp stuff to experts then you should leave the 'posting rubbish' on the forums about pvp to experts as well :P
Hmm that sounded much better in my head
Hmmm, wasn't sure that Jade's post was about PvP at all. I'm not even completely sure it has anything to do with RP.
Indeed, if m0o/Sinister and their allies came to Venal I don't have a shadow of a doubt we'd get our arses royally kicked for all the reasons you've given - there isn't a single one I could disagree with. Having said that PvPers for the most part don't spring fully formed into a game, maybe you did, most don't. Looking at Venal and the way it's developing I can see the alliance's skills are improving - this weekend we fielded a 30 ship fleet and ended with M3G4 leaving yesterday. Chicken feed to you of course and I doubt we'll ever come close to matching the skills of people who put everything into PvP, but still an improvement on what was being achieved when VA/TTi were under pressure from Evo and Xana.
The point you seem to be missing and what I think Jade is trying to make is that for people who aim solely at the biggest ship the game is always close to finishing, for people who aim for building something up, alliances, politics, etc - the game is always just starting and fresh every day. You really had to experience the Ragnar Declaration that time at the VA meeting, the whole thing was electric - not from roleplaying or anything, just from the monumental stupidity of it. It was the only time I suspected that Ragnar may have been employed by CCP, as it was so like some sort of looney hollywood bad guy behaviour it's hard to believe he said it without prompting. 
As to economics, well I wouldn't assume that we're as bad at that as we are with killing people.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:25:00 -
[28]
Quote:
The problem is there's basically nothing out there for the very small corp or freelancer. Please don't just dismiss us like that, because there are quite a lot of us who've reached the stage where all that's left to do is join a large corp or pack it in.
You don't have to join an alliance or a large corp to interact with them. If the alliance or corp ignores you because your small, then more fool them. In fact I would say that you can have a lot more fun with a flexible small corp than you can with a lot of larger ones.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Stavros
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:25:00 -
[29]
I would, most in this game are.
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Jade Constantine
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Posted - 2003.09.16 14:29:00 -
[30]
Carp, I hear you, I honestly do. And thatÆs why the NVA adopted open borders policy and has openly invited volunteers to pledge cause and take up arms in this war against Taggart Transpiratical. I have never dismissed small corps. I encourage small corps to involve themselves in the wider political picture. If you guys are still building up then fine. My post was mainly directed at those who have already built-up, and are now bored with the lack of any future progression,
But saying that; just take a took at the NVA/War in Venal stuff mÆdear. People are fighting in cruisers, they are fighting in frigates. There really are all levels of potential participation. If you guys manage to outfit a wing of kestrels and blow some TTi miners for the war effort then you are really helping out, in a real, solid way.
If you are serious about wanting involvement then hell, IÆll bankroll you to the tune of a few million so you can get a frigate wing equipped. IÆve done it before and will do it again.
People get the wrong idea of PvP from the posts on these forums. ItÆs not all about huge uber battleships blasting huge uber battleships.
In an ongoing war every kill counts.
Take a couple of kestrels with some jammers and webs and ambush TTi indies mÆdear! ItÆs cheap as chips and a great way to score economic disruption. Declare war on the enemy and you are laughing! You can do it anywhere.
Seriously, have a read about the issues and the sides of this war and if you want in I will make it happen for you.
Lack of huge stacks of isk is not an issue.
Love and peace
JF Public Forum |
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