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SengH	Posted - 2006.04.13 18:59:00 - [91] Edited by: SengH on 13/04/2006 18:59:44 Originally by: babyblue I certainly don't believe that the CCP developers should or would go to DirectX 10, when they are hardly using anything of note in DirectX 9 at present. If they are rebuilding their graphics engine from scratch, there are a gigantic slew of "new" techniques (new for Eve) that have yet to even be touched in DirectX 9. All of those things giving great eye candy in todays games, such as Pixel Shaders, Vertex Shaders, Self Shadowing (more an algorithm than a hardware dependant feature), proper LOD are easy enough to do with DX 9. The DX 10 and Vista thing is more than likely marketing *******s. I can't see what DX 10 will do for you that DX 9 can't, apart from Geometry Shaders, and reference boards for developers that support this feature aren't even available yet. As a developer, this makes no sense whatsoever. But still, how could they admit they aren't taxing directX 9, when it's a good few years old - it would be like saying all Eve citizens are second class at the moment, compare to other games; so marketing-wise, better to talk about DirectX 10, then develop for 9, in a platform independant way. Yes it is possible to do. If they don't do it, then they will deserve to lose business because of it. If their going to show off the engine @ E3 and they show a DX9.0 engine, the'll get laughed out of the conference hall. Simple as that. At this point in time, to start work on a DX 9.0 engine is not feasible. Edit: Reference boards are available. Its just that most of us dont have access to them. DX9 boards available to consumers 6 months before release.... how long before that do you think the top tier developers (Epic etc... had them?)
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.13 19:10:00 - [92] There are lots of engines on show at E3 which are DX9. Indeed, there will be no DX10 engines on show for the simple reason that it was finalised far too recently for anyone to seriosuly begin work on a DX10 engine - and the fact that there are not even engineering samples of DX10 boards for coding to begin working with them (And no, they are not avaliable as they don't exist yet). We're looking at another 6-8 weeks, minimum, before even the first samples of DX10 hardware. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Tachy	Posted - 2006.04.13 19:22:00 - [93] ccp doesn't have the manpower to support and fix their current client. How big is the chance they're gonna support two clients? Creative Labs cards are great, but their drivers are not worth the space they use on the system. At least they match the EVE sound engine as you have to reduce the hardware acceleration to get it running half way okay so the change to Vista is not a biggie there grins ebilly. Actually most enterprises do not care about what people can do with ipods(?!) or USB devices as those at the top have no idea of most anything but the currently hyped cars and their ladies preferred presents. Upper row IBM manager to me: Could you please start my computer quickly? (The computer has been running and the screen saver was activated as required by IBM standards.) The current Vista build needs much more resources to do the same Win2k does for years jsut fine. But for Win2k you can get drivers for most hardware, while you wont get many drivers for 'older' hardware for Vista. Older as in 'not in development for Q3 2006 or later. Modem, printers, network devices like office scanner/printer/fax/... telephone support, ... nothing works under Vista. Especially not if they're those fancy 'windows only' devices using the PC cpu. Most office workstations are very incompatible to Vista. Current notebooks will have more problems under Vista than they have with current Linux versions due to missing drivers. At least under Linux there is a chance that some other drivers at least partially make the built-in components available. The corporate world will get exactly what they ever wanted according to MS. Problems with no way to get them fixed without buying 100% Vista compatible new hardware. --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
SengH	Posted - 2006.04.13 20:26:00 - [94] Edited by: SengH on 13/04/2006 20:27:08 Originally by: Maya Rkell There are lots of engines on show at E3 which are DX9. Indeed, there will be no DX10 engines on show for the simple reason that it was finalised far too recently for anyone to seriosuly begin work on a DX10 engine - and the fact that there are not even engineering samples of DX10 boards for coding to begin working with them (And no, they are not avaliable as they don't exist yet). We're looking at another 6-8 weeks, minimum, before even the first samples of DX10 hardware. Ever heard of FPGAs? Oh and if your asking about real hardware. Cryteks Engine that they showed here is DX10. How do you suppose they rendered that? Edit: In the corporate world, hardware is rarely the problem. Its the software/support that costs you the big bucks.
Tousaka Langley	Posted - 2006.04.13 20:32:00 - [95] Edited by: Tousaka Langley on 13/04/2006 20:32:53 DX10 is an extreme improvement over DX9 architecture. Now, even if you don't splurge on a DX10 card, it will be able to run DX9 cards/games fine through emulation. Because of the streamlined design of DX10 it will give a performance boost for the simple sake of how well your card can utilize it's own resources. If you don't want to upgrade, fine, don't, you don't have to. But don't complain that you want the graphics updated but are unwilling to switch to the new platform. It is called future proofing. EvE did it when it was released and it will do it again. Just becauuse you aren't willing to upgrade, use windows, etc. doesn't mean you can't play the game, just means you won't benefit from all the fancy new graphics. If you want fancy new graphics but don't want to upgrade, tough. I ain't even sure where a lot of you are pulling numbers from. 2 gig of RAM? Yeah, right... sure... (it's being held back for a reason, that reason not being that they enjoy holding up their customers.)
000Hunter000	Posted - 2006.04.13 20:46:00 - [96] couldn't be bothered to read through the entire thread, but just wondering a couple of things. I'm planning on getting me a new comp soon, so are there allready graphic cards outthere that will support DX10 or would it be wise to buy a relative cheap one now then get me a better one once DX10 and Vista are out? Man, it's been so long since i last put in some research on computer parts... prolly should do some websearching
Tachy	Posted - 2006.04.13 20:48:00 - [97] @SengH: How do you get Vista drivers for (office) hardware that isn't currently in development? Or for hardware that is impossible to run under Vista by design - like those Windows-Only printers and Modems using the modem, and all the nice built-in devices using the CPU directly? There is a reason why they could not be used under Unix where direct hardware access wasn't allowed and that is implemeted in Vista too. The Crytek demo cannot be real DX10 as the specs just have been fixed. They might have done a bit of wild guessing and only used the features that have been known earlier in the specification process. @Tousaka: DX9 and DX10 aren't compatible. DX9 is emulated. Emulations are never faster than the real deal. There is a lot of other stuff the CPU has to do instead of some hardware under Vista because of the new driver model. Vista uses way more resources from the start and certainly wont be faster than win2k or winXP. It will feel faster than WinXP though because it uses a lot more guesstimation about what the user will use soonish and preloading - once they get the guessing to work (wich requires big time spying and logging on the user and isn't legal in Germany and many other countries in Europe). --==*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray
Viktor Fyretracker	Posted - 2006.04.13 20:48:00 - [98] its the DRM part of vista that worries me, IMO no corperation should have a right to tell me how, where and when i can listen to music nore on how many devices, PCs. even worse is that HDCP Bull****, if your monitor doesnt support HDCP you cant use any High Def content(though im guessing HDCP boxes will be sold online that go inline on the DVI cable and fool vista).
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:17:00 - [99] Originally by: SengH Edited by: SengH on 13/04/2006 20:27:08 Originally by: Maya Rkell There are lots of engines on show at E3 which are DX9. Indeed, there will be no DX10 engines on show for the simple reason that it was finalised far too recently for anyone to seriosuly begin work on a DX10 engine - and the fact that there are not even engineering samples of DX10 boards for coding to begin working with them (And no, they are not avaliable as they don't exist yet). We're looking at another 6-8 weeks, minimum, before even the first samples of DX10 hardware. Ever heard of FPGAs? Yep. Know how much they cost and the issues of emulating GPU's on them? And as Tachy notes, it's only just been finalised...it takes TIME to work out the processes. And the very early reference boards.. shudders "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
SengH	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:27:00 - [100] Edited by: SengH on 13/04/2006 21:29:31 Edited by: SengH on 13/04/2006 21:28:59 Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: SengH Edited by: SengH on 13/04/2006 20:27:08 Originally by: Maya Rkell There are lots of engines on show at E3 which are DX9. Indeed, there will be no DX10 engines on show for the simple reason that it was finalised far too recently for anyone to seriosuly begin work on a DX10 engine - and the fact that there are not even engineering samples of DX10 boards for coding to begin working with them (And no, they are not avaliable as they don't exist yet). We're looking at another 6-8 weeks, minimum, before even the first samples of DX10 hardware. Ever heard of FPGAs? Yep. Know how much they cost and the issues of emulating GPU's on them? And as Tachy notes, it's only just been finalised...it takes TIME to work out the processes. And the very early reference boards.. shudders The costs are a drop in the pond to the hardware manufacturers. The hardware manufacturers already know the general spec and if youve ever done logic design, they have a huge library of modules ready to go. The whole of Nvidia only has 2 guys working on Digital Logic design. Thats how streamlined the process is nowadays. To go from there to the FPGA is just a click away. Taping out the processor and getting it to silicon and passing qualification is where the hard part is. ATI's R600 (Their DX 10 chip taped out mid last year). If ATI/Nvidia started developing a chip today as you assume, its 3-4 years before you'll see it available to consumers. It takes 3-4 months before the initial design sent to the fab comes back. In the meantime, the driver team works on the drivers by using a FPGA. Then they go through multiple spins before finally releasing it.
Dhin Xar	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:36:00 - [101] Originally by: Tachy Vista uses way more resources from the start and certainly wont be faster than win2k or winXP. It will feel faster than WinXP though because it uses a lot more guesstimation about what the user will use soonish and preloading - once they get the guessing to work (wich requires big time spying and logging on the user and isn't legal in Germany and many other countries in Europe). Is there a good write-up out there regarding this particular piece of Vista?
Tolon	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:39:00 - [102] If CCP are doing a graphical overhaul for EVE, why not go for the newest DirectX? I've seen the best that DX9.0c has to offer and in my book it don't cut it anymore. I want something new and i don't mind buying a new PC to get the new spinkee OS and new EVE graphics.
D'onryu Shoqui	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:48:00 - [103] Originally by: 000Hunter000 couldn't be bothered to read through the entire thread, but just wondering a couple of things. I'm planning on getting me a new comp soon, so are there allready graphic cards outthere that will support DX10 or would it be wise to buy a relative cheap one now then get me a better one once DX10 and Vista are out? Man, it's been so long since i last put in some research on computer parts... prolly should do some websearching cheap one now ,grab a dx10 card when they are released. there are no cards that will support dx10 yet, there coming around the last quarter of the year
Rogue Roy	Posted - 2006.04.13 21:54:00 - [104] Working in the game industry, I can tell you that every time somebody says they are not going to get new hardware just to keep up with game graphics, a game/hardware company CEO somewhere gets a stroke. It is the only advance they actually make by throwing money around.
MrTripps	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:08:00 - [105] Vista isn't going to be out for awhile, so I'm not really worried about that. I would kinda like an upgrade for XP that takes some load off the CPU and puts it on the GPU. A sound fix would be nice, but not a big priority.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:28:00 - [106] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/04/2006 22:30:10 Originally by: Tolon If CCP are doing a graphical overhaul for EVE, why not go for the newest DirectX? I've seen the best that DX9.0c has to offer and in my book it don't cut it anymore. I want something new and i don't mind buying a new PC to get the new spinkee OS and new EVE graphics. Because the latest and greatest isn't due out for a long time, and will have an awful uptake rate. Technology for its own sake - and you can't really describe DX10 as anything other right now - is bad. "DX9c dosn't cut it". Uhm...so you don't think the 360 or Oblivion or any other game for the next year and quite a few beyond that cut it then? VERY few games even take full advantage of DX9c. And YOU might not mind. But the vast supermajority do. SengH, to the hardware manufacurers, yes. To the games companies, NO. Games compaies don't see anything until the reference boards are ready. And it still takes several weeks to hammer down the final parts of a spec, and longer than that to get the reference boards made and shipped. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
SengH	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:35:00 - [107] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Double TaP Question: I've noticed people say you have to get a new graphics card to take advantage of the new system. Well I recently bought an invidia 7800 gtx... one of the best on the market i believe. I'm not going to ahve to buy a new gc to take advantage of vista dx10 right? dx10 cards don't exist so yes, you'll need a new card. Or you could jsut be like everyone else and not upgrade at all. Nothing wrong with how eve looks now. Wrong. DX10 cards are out. Nvidia 7900gt and gtx are both DX10. And I don't doubt ATI has something DX10 compliant. 7900GT/GTX are most definitatly not DX10
Locke DieDrake	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:35:00 - [108] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Double TaP Question: I've noticed people say you have to get a new graphics card to take advantage of the new system. Well I recently bought an invidia 7800 gtx... one of the best on the market i believe. I'm not going to ahve to buy a new gc to take advantage of vista dx10 right? dx10 cards don't exist so yes, you'll need a new card. Or you could jsut be like everyone else and not upgrade at all. Nothing wrong with how eve looks now. Wrong. DX10 cards are out. Nvidia 7900gt and gtx are both DX10. And I don't doubt ATI has something DX10 compliant. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Soulita	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:35:00 - [109] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Tolon If CCP are doing a graphical overhaul for EVE, why not go for the newest DirectX? I've seen the best that DX9.0c has to offer and in my book it don't cut it anymore. I want something new and i don't mind buying a new PC to get the new spinkee OS and new EVE graphics. Because the latest and greatest isn't due out for a long time, and will have an awful uptake rate... Well, in my case that will most likely be true. I am using w2k not XP, because I am not getting the newest stuff just because its new. XP has a lot of "extras" that w2k doesnt have which I have absolutely no use for whatsoever. If Vista brings even more wonderful extras without giving a real advantage - extras like the wonderful flip3d, or the digicam importer, or the wonderful taskbar icons - I will stay with w2k.
Locke DieDrake	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:43:00 - [110] Originally by: SengH Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Double TaP Question: I've noticed people say you have to get a new graphics card to take advantage of the new system. Well I recently bought an invidia 7800 gtx... one of the best on the market i believe. I'm not going to ahve to buy a new gc to take advantage of vista dx10 right? dx10 cards don't exist so yes, you'll need a new card. Or you could jsut be like everyone else and not upgrade at all. Nothing wrong with how eve looks now. Wrong. DX10 cards are out. Nvidia 7900gt and gtx are both DX10. And I don't doubt ATI has something DX10 compliant. 7900GT/GTX are most definitatly not DX10 Actually, they are. There will be a firmware update when DX10 comes out and the 7900 and better cards will be able to use the new Dx 10 features. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:43:00 - [111] Locke DieDrake, As has been explained in this thread before, Vista ready and DX10 ready are DIFFERENT. All sorts of PC's will be able to run Vista. Running DX10 on Vista? Entirely different story. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:44:00 - [112] link? "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
SengH	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:47:00 - [113] Edited by: SengH on 13/04/2006 22:51:54 Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: SengH Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Double TaP Question: I've noticed people say you have to get a new graphics card to take advantage of the new system. Well I recently bought an invidia 7800 gtx... one of the best on the market i believe. I'm not going to ahve to buy a new gc to take advantage of vista dx10 right? dx10 cards don't exist so yes, you'll need a new card. Or you could jsut be like everyone else and not upgrade at all. Nothing wrong with how eve looks now. Wrong. DX10 cards are out. Nvidia 7900gt and gtx are both DX10. And I don't doubt ATI has something DX10 compliant. 7900GT/GTX are most definitatly not DX10 Actually, they are. There will be a firmware update when DX10 comes out and the 7900 and better cards will be able to use the new Dx 10 features. So your telling me their gonna magically "flash" the firmware to make separate PS/VS unified? Or that the Video Card GPUs are actually partially FPGA which they can change gates on the fly? (if so the'd make bank selling FPGAs that run @ 500+ mhz) Dont mix up "Vista-Ready" with DX 10. "Vista-Ready" just means it can run Aero Glass which uses DX9.0L(basically DX9 for vista). There arent any cards publically available atm that can run D3D10.
Raluque	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:48:00 - [114] Probaly won't get an answer will will the nVidia 7800 series be avalible for this firmware update? Considering they are biggest brand of nvidia atm.. due to 7900 pricetag -------------- Care?: Skill ETA: Indefinate --------------
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:51:00 - [115] Raluque, no, not if it is Vista/DX10 NO card currently on the market will work. Period. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
LUC1FER666	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:53:00 - [116] I payed about ú600 for a new rig just so i could run multiple eve accounts on one puter. I will gladly spend another load to play eve in pretty mode. Who the **** is bob?
D'onryu Shoqui	Posted - 2006.04.13 22:54:00 - [117] Quote: Wrong. DX10 cards are out. Nvidia 7900gt and gtx are both DX10. And I don't doubt ATI has something DX10 compliant. compliant doesnt mean they are dx10 cards and dx10 wasnt even finalized until after they came out. you cant make a card the next dx version with a firmware update. nvidias own site even says they are dx9. VISTA ready doesnt mean there dx10 either. go ask on somewhere like futuremark forums (biggest overclockers/hardware forum on the net) and you will get laughed at
Raluque	Posted - 2006.04.14 00:04:00 - [118] Edited by: Raluque on 14/04/2006 00:08:50 waves someone capable answer this Will the 7800/7900 series when running on XP for example be able to run the new Snazzy graphics on eve? Simple yes or no to start with If no .. Why? [1]You'd need Vista ONLY[NO new GFX needed] [2]You'd need Vista + DX10 [YES new GFX will be needed] [3]You'd could use the to come out XP version of DX10[NO new GFX needed] [4]You'd could upgrade to Vista + and use the Vista version of DX9 [NO new GFX needed] Im hoping their is 1 or more answers in the 4. /Thx -------------- Care?: Skill ETA: Indefinate --------------
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2006.04.14 00:07:00 - [119] No, it will not. Because [2]. "The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer
Tolon	Posted - 2006.04.14 00:23:00 - [120] Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 13/04/2006 22:30:10 Originally by: Tolon If CCP are doing a graphical overhaul for EVE, why not go for the newest DirectX? I've seen the best that DX9.0c has to offer and in my book it don't cut it anymore. I want something new and i don't mind buying a new PC to get the new spinkee OS and new EVE graphics. Because the latest and greatest isn't due out for a long time, and will have an awful uptake rate. Technology for its own sake - and you can't really describe DX10 as anything other right now - is bad. "DX9c dosn't cut it". Uhm...so you don't think the 360 or Oblivion or any other game for the next year and quite a few beyond that cut it then? VERY few games even take full advantage of DX9c. And YOU might not mind. But the vast supermajority do. SengH, to the hardware manufacurers, yes. To the games companies, NO. Games compaies don't see anything until the reference boards are ready. And it still takes several weeks to hammer down the final parts of a spec, and longer than that to get the reference boards made and shipped. You keep bringing up the "vast majority" line. I expressed my personal opinion, why don't you stick to expressing yours and not the "vast majority". And yes, i don't think Oblivion's graphics cut it. I think their better than most games out there, but could be improved. Before you start, i have a decent rig and can run the game at full whack with HDR on. I ask as a small example, where is the realistic hair and clothes? Where is the realistic grass and trees? I think the current grass and trees blow, just hundreds of animated sprites. Games need to move on from just texturing or spriting most things in games. They have a flat look and it just don't cut it. I wish to see more done with shaders to create better effects than just improved explosions and spells. The introduction of HDR lighting is a big plus and i hope the CCP team can introduce it into the EVE engine in their next graphical update.

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