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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9077
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Posted - 2014.02.22 07:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Contextually, define participants. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Dave Stark
4363
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Posted - 2014.02.22 07:52:00 -
[62] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Contextually, define participants.
yeah the context doesn't change the definition. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9077
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Posted - 2014.02.22 08:05:00 -
[63] - Quote
So if I'm a midpoint cyno 2 jumps from the battle do I get on all the killmails too? I should since I took part. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Dave Stark
4363
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Posted - 2014.02.22 08:19:00 -
[64] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:So if I'm a midpoint cyno 2 jumps from the battle do I get on all the killmails too? I should since I took part.
no, you clearly didn't take part. you're 2 jumps from the battle. |
gnshadowninja
Concentrated Evil The Marmite Collective
72
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Posted - 2014.02.22 08:47:00 -
[65] - Quote
If anyone used to play or still plays League of legends here then you know at the start support never got on kills. then they implemented it so if player A attacked player B and player C healed him, they would get counted on the kill as an assist.
Im unaware of why you guys are giving him a hard time, he plays an important role in eve and most people whine and cry about there being no logi because everyone wants to be DPS (like every game), this guy just wants to get his share on the kills.
I think this would give a great incentive to players to play a different role and be more involved with the support role. M33P |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9077
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Posted - 2014.02.22 08:53:00 -
[66] - Quote
So if I do a single cycle of cap transfer on an enemy DPS ship, do I get on all their killmails too? Could I just rep two people once and get on most of the kills in a battle? "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
349
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Posted - 2014.02.22 09:00:00 -
[67] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:If you want the best of both worlds, carry Warrior IIs and assist them to someone.
To take a bit of liberty I'd suggest that assisting drones is the most common way for logi pilots to ***** on kills. It also contributes DPS (very token DPS, but still), however whoring on the killmail is always secondary to the primary roles of proper positioning, keeping your fleet in the fight and assisting with an extraction.
Often when I fly logi, I'm more often carrying ecm drones to counter the Griffins, Flacons, Blackbirds and other ewar that opponents bring to the fight and instantly target our logi with. Those ships aren't always killed because like logistics, they position themselves out of the melee, but the logistics pilots contribute a lot to neutralising the threat.
I also find that by the time logi hits grid, locks up our inty because it needs reps, reps the inty and then starts scanning the watchlist and broadcasts, the first opponent ships are dropping. By the time you assist drones and they start flying into the fight, the opposing fleet is already depleted (well hopefully).
It's no big issue for me in terms of whoring on, as I get more satisfaction out of repping our ships and keeping the up (especially the interceptor, which can be in low armour or into structure by the time we load grid). The best time in logi is when at the end of a fight, a heap of ships are in structure but no-one died. That's when the logi did a great job to prevent a welp of the fleet.
So for me as above, a separate logimail for both successful logistics and also losses in the fleet would be good. eve-bazaar - I'm not associated with them, but support it as a worthwhile service |
Dave Stark
4363
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Posted - 2014.02.22 09:05:00 -
[68] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:So if I do a single cycle of cap transfer on an enemy DPS ship, do I get on all their killmails too? Could I just rep two people once and get on most of the kills in a battle?
sure. if you want to ***** on killmails at the detriment of your own fleet, that's fine. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
349
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Posted - 2014.02.22 09:10:00 -
[69] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:So if I do a single cycle of cap transfer on an enemy DPS ship, do I get on all their killmails too?
That one's funny from a logi perspective.
Some of our logi pilots have their drones set to aggressive as another way of launch and forget, hoping to *****-on.
But they often get a kill and end up on the loss mails of our fleet members because the drones sometimes attack the fleet ships we are repping (we have a couple that have even had final blow which is embarassing). It's kind of funny, but some of our guys are going to be accused of being awoxers if they apply to join a different Corp. eve-bazaar - I'm not associated with them, but support it as a worthwhile service |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Black Core Alliance
1401
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Posted - 2014.02.22 11:17:00 -
[70] - Quote
It's probably a technical issue on why they won't do it. I'm sure it *can* be done but the work is probably not equal to the benefit.
Killmails work on a pretty simple concept, when your ship died who shot at it to kill it? For instance, an interdictor that pops a bubble and prevents someone from leaving contributed to the kill even though they didn't get the kill mail. There are a bunch of others. To add in someone like a logi or a person that never fired a shot, you would have to add all sorts of new tracking and that's a lot of work.
I personally would like to see killmails more equal in all aspects for ships on grid. For instance I have a kill of a bomber that had his mwd on where I got the lucky bomb and killed him. It looks like it was a solo kill but it was basically 5 of us chasing down 3. How many times was someone simply overwhelmed by a gate camp but died to 3 people in the end? If a killmail is going to tell a better story, then it needs a lot more work. I'd like to see that because it could provide a better idea of what happened and how a particular player plays. But it seems like currently, the disqus comments can serve that purpose if people really want to know.
So really what would be gained by adding logi or other non-damage ship contributions? Worth the cost to do it? GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour! |
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Arduemont
The State of War. Vendetta Mercenary Group
3108
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Posted - 2014.02.22 11:25:00 -
[71] - Quote
Laiannah Sahireen wrote: I believe it will happen, as I've heard CCP talking about it as something they intend to do in the future.
Don't get me wrong. I am a supporter of Logi on killmails. But CCP makes a lot of promises and doesn't fulfil many of them at all. There are a great many things CCP have said we will get, but in all likelihood we never will.
"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
1071
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Posted - 2014.02.22 11:33:00 -
[72] - Quote
Laiannah Sahireen wrote:Yarda Black wrote:You're either logi or not This is nonsense. It's a PVP game and logistics is a vital role in PVP, there's no reason for logi pilots to miss out on KMs. Besides, you're completely missing the point. CCP have already said they plan to do this. My question was whether anybody knows what the latest news is on when we might expect it.
The truth is that unless you've applied some dps to the target you have not actually assisted in the kill. You may well have kept your corp mates alive long enough to win the day but this is a wholly different thing.
Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Your Dad Naked
State War Academy Caldari State
104
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Posted - 2014.02.22 17:58:00 -
[73] - Quote
Why are you guys still talking about logi getting standard killmails?
It's been established quite well in here already that putting logi pilots on regular killmails will not work. There have been a couple of good ideas that were discussed for a couple of posts and then ignored for some reason.
Good idea from this thread #1: Logistics specific killboard. Tracks everyone you rep who is involved in a kill/loss. I'll add: There could be a flag that detects when you rep two or more sides of an engagement and doesn't add such data to the killboard.
Good idea from this thread #2: Logistics recognition on battle reports. This would involve adding a new system that effectively flags all logistics ships on grid whenever a killmail is generated (logi that were involved in the kill). This means any logistic ship that attempted to repair a killed ship or any logistic ship that actively repaired a DPS/ewar ship would appear as a separate entry within the killmail. It's not a "kill" for them, just a set of data showing all the logi ships (from both sides) on grid for any given kill. The main problem with this idea is, "How would you know which side they were fighting for?". Most times it would be obvious but sometimes (NPC corp) it wouldn't be possible.
Also, those saying cyno should get credit aren't making much sense. They are several jumps away. How about the line gets drawn with ships on grid? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9079
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Posted - 2014.02.22 20:08:00 -
[74] - Quote
It's another proposal to move the line, just as yours is. I think the line is fine where it is (with ships that have dealt damage or ewar effects). "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
355
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Posted - 2014.02.22 22:02:00 -
[75] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:The truth is that unless you've applied some dps to the target you have not actually assisted in the kill. You may well have kept your corp mates alive long enough to win the day but this is a wholly different thing.
Actually, that's not true at all. DPS is not the criteria for appearing on the kill mail.
Activating an offensive module appears to be the criteria for appearing on the kill. Scrams, points, webs, target painters, tracking disruptors, dampeners and many, many other non-DPS modules qualify. Like logi repping fleet members, the purpose of those modules isn't to do damage, but to reduce the ability of the opponent to deal his damage effectively (or to escape). We have lots of kill mails where a ship appears without having done any DPS, but it still contributed to the kill.
Ironically, if a logi accidentally reps the opponent (eg. When controlling drones rather than assisting), then the logi will appear on the kill mail even though the effect was to assist the opponent by accident, because remote rappers are also offensive modules. eve-bazaar - I'm not associated with them, but support it as a worthwhile service |
Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
625
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Posted - 2014.02.23 01:27:00 -
[76] - Quote
Rep the prime once. Problem solved. ...... What? Forums are playing EVE too. Fact. |
Spurty
Dimension Door
1232
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Posted - 2014.02.23 01:46:00 -
[77] - Quote
Personally I thought all of the new aggression mechanics were to do this?
What's the point of this Agro mechanic if not to allow the system to count you as part of the aggression?
*signature is not allowed on the EVE Online forums* |
DSpite Culhach
287
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Posted - 2014.02.23 07:32:00 -
[78] - Quote
My cat seems obsessed with KM's. She apparently thinks that I'm the official killboard manager, and that if she does not actually drop a dead mouse or lizard next to me while I'm on the internet, it won't be officially recognized that she has killed something.
I find this relevant since I have actually called my cat Eve.
... I really wish those mice had logi's. They don't even seem to be tanking for Cat. ~ |
Yarda Black
Epidemic. Psychosomatic.
48
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Posted - 2014.02.23 09:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
Wacktopia wrote:Rep the prime once. Problem solved. ...... What?
That wont work m8 :) |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2298
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Posted - 2014.02.23 11:12:00 -
[80] - Quote
Logi pilot assists one drone to one combat ship at the start of the fight, focuses entirely on logistics the entire fight, ends up on 300 km's because he kept a DPS ship alive.
Why do they need to code something in thats already effortless? Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Motoko Innocentius
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2014.02.23 11:33:00 -
[81] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Logi pilot assists one drone to one combat ship at the start of the fight, focuses entirely on logistics the entire fight, ends up on 300 km's because he kept a DPS ship alive.
Why do they need to code something in thats already effortless?
Because it's a completely idiotic crutch for logistics, i'd rather have my drones either as reppers or warriors whom i can control at will to do what needs to be done on the field, wether it's that light tackle coming for logistics, killing ecm drones or giving that extra push of rep power on one of my fleet members.
On why km's have any importance, it's a metric for what you have done and how much in eve. It's actually useful for corporation recruiters to have actual factual data on how much fleet participation a pilot gives, with what and at what times. Currently a good logistic pilot rarely shows on a battle report due to using any offensive capability he has on more meaningful tasks and using his focus on keeping himself positioned well and bringing his logistical powers on the friendly fleet.
The other great point of km's is the bragging rights, players love to brag about what they've done and it's a great feelign to have been part of a great dunk.
On the whole topic, i've also seen these posts by ccp, from what i remember, there was no timetable given for this as they had no real idea of how to do this.
Edit: And grath, what you are basicly saying is "why do you need doors in cars ? You can easily just open a window, crawl through it and you're outside. Theres really no need for doors on cars, why should the manufacturers build doors when they arleady circumvented so effortlessly ? |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2298
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Posted - 2014.02.23 11:39:00 -
[82] - Quote
Motoko Innocentius wrote: Edit: And grath, what you are basicly saying is "why do you need doors in cars ? You can easily just open a window, crawl through it and you're outside. Theres really no need for doors on cars, why should the manufacturers build doors when they arleady circumvented so effortlessly ?
No what I'm saying is there is a perfectly functional mechanic currently working in game and you are asking CCP to devote programing time to something that doesn't actually need a fix because, as I said, a method thats really easy to use already exists.
Why should other things that need fixing in game wait when what you're collectively asking for is a simple move of "Right Click Assign Drone Do Logi's Normal Job"? Hardly climbing through a window to get into a car at all, but thanks for exaggerating.
Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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Dave Stark
4372
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Posted - 2014.02.23 11:45:00 -
[83] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Logi pilot assists one drone to one combat ship at the start of the fight, focuses entirely on logistics the entire fight, ends up on 300 km's because he kept a DPS ship alive.
Why do they need to code something in thats already effortless?
except that doesn't work in the situation i logi in. in fact, i can't do anything offensive at all in the situation i logi in, therefore i'm never going to get on any kill mails despite how many fights i participate in.
they need to code it because your solution simply doesn't work, at all, for every situation. |
Motoko Innocentius
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2014.02.23 11:50:00 -
[84] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Motoko Innocentius wrote: Edit: And grath, what you are basicly saying is "why do you need doors in cars ? You can easily just open a window, crawl through it and you're outside. Theres really no need for doors on cars, why should the manufacturers build doors when they arleady circumvented so effortlessly ?
No what I'm saying is there is a perfectly functional mechanic currently working in game and you are asking CCP to devote programing time to something that doesn't actually need a fix because, as I said, a method thats really easy to use already exists. Why should other things that need fixing in game wait when what you're collectively asking for is a simple move of "Right Click Assign Drone Do Logi's Normal Job"? Hardly climbing through a window to get into a car at all, but thanks for exaggerating. EDIT: Oh and you should get together on this, because one guy in this thread was told to just attack other ships and said that was too much effort and took away from his ability to properly care for his wards. So here's you saying you wouldn't mind using your warriors to do exactly that. So either he's bad at multi tasking or you're a poor logistics pilot, regardless, currently if you're in a logi the means exists for you to show that you were in a fight and productive in applying damage to a victim. Calling that a 'crutch' doesn't negate the fact that we have a game where tons of stuff needs attention and you want them to devote time to coding you a way to do less in a fight and get more.
Theres no difference between my example and your claim. Both are about doing something in a none optimal way. Why should something else be more important? Poses, only a small amount of people from the whole population manages those. Titans/sc's , only a small fraction flies those, no point in fixing it... could go on with this, fixing something thats not working in an optimal way is always useful for the game. Just because you are not interested in logistics pilots getting on killmails doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be interested in it, and those other people would be more than glad to have this fix.
So, I see no reason why a games small problems aren't as meaningful for the game as whole as big problems. But thats clearly something you do not understand. You sound like an ea marketer who sees all these problems/bugs in a game and goes on saying "yeah we can sell this, it doesn't matter if it's full of small fuckups, players can just go around those".
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Dave stark
4372
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Posted - 2014.02.23 11:51:00 -
[85] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:currently if you're in a logi the means exists for you to show that you were in a fight and productive in applying damage to a victim.
but why should you only be recognised as a participant in a fight if you did something offensive? logi participate just as much as any one else, regardless of if they did damage or not.
imagine if the criteria were just killing blows, imagine how upset most combat pilots would feel. they participated just as much as the guy that got the last shot in. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
883
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Posted - 2014.02.23 11:52:00 -
[86] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:From the Winter summit minutesQuote:#10 on the list is to put Logistics pilots onto killmails. Mike Azariah pointed out that Logistics pilots get part of the bounty, so itGÇÖs clearly tracked. Soundwave wondered aloud if itGÇÖs the right solution. GÇ£Logistics pilots want recognition, but is the killmail the right place? Is shoehorning the information into the right place?GÇ¥ Ripard Teg brought up an idea from elsewhere GÇôGÇ£ if youGÇÖre present for a kill, you get kill credit, but likewise if you are repping someone who dies, you get points against you.GÇ¥ Mynnna agreed that whatever solution is settled on here, acknowledging failure should happen as well. Korvin argued that logistics are GÇ£just another thingGÇ¥ involved in a kill, like ammo, modules, etc. and they should be recorded. Ripard Teg pointed out weGÇÖre all gamers and are driven by achievement, and that it also is an intelligence source. GÇ£It sizes up the sides in a fight.GÇ¥ Veritas pointed out that battle reports like that, such as dog .net, do not actually exist in EVE, but if they did, that may be a more appropriate way to display logistics participation. Soundwave concluded that he thinks they should solve it, and heGÇÖs just not sure if killmails are the right place for it If the logi wasn't a part of the kill why does he get a share of the bounty If the logi isn't doing damage what does he get aggro/timers when he reps the offensive ships Either you are a part of the fight or you are not and logis ARE m
Hi Mike
Can you get my cloaky prober/warp in on the mail as well m8 |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
2298
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Posted - 2014.02.23 12:34:00 -
[87] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote: but why should you only be recognised as a participant in a fight if you did something offensive? .
You are currently recognized for dying in a fight, which isn't offensive, and simply adding in people who 'were there' means that cov ops scouts, in cynos, bombers who never fired a bomb, basically everybody in system deserves to be on every killmail because they're all performing some function in that battle, regardless of the value you personally put on it.
Furthermore if your group doesn't properly recognize its logistics hero's then that sounds like a problem with your particular group. We celebrate our logistics pilots and even reward the most dedicated of them in fairly insane ways.
The means for logistics to show on killmails is there, it takes almost zero effort from said logistics pilots, stop being greedy, you don't see threads for cov ops scouts wanting to be on killmails, even though most of them too have the means to get on a mail, so why should you be any different. Use the tools that exist and let the game developer focus on fixing the things that matter.
Dave Stark wrote:
imagine if the criteria were just killing blows, imagine how upset most combat pilots would feel. they participated just as much as the guy that got the last shot in.
Many people would prefer it were this way so that it removed the intel that can be gathered by a killmail. Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
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IDGAD
The Scope Gallente Federation
83
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Posted - 2014.02.23 12:41:00 -
[88] - Quote
A few notes:
Drones are not immediate damage. They have a flight time and this means you can miss many kills by the target being killed before the drones get their first shot.
Drones have a limited range of engagement, so for sniping fleets they are usually not effective from non dedicated droneboats.
Drones will not aggress non criminal targets in lowsec, so drone assist does nothing for most of us evil piwates that need to have our PvP deterred at every turn because we are so evil |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
365
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Posted - 2014.02.23 12:48:00 -
[89] - Quote
IDGAD wrote:Drones will not aggress non criminal targets in lowsec, so drone assist does nothing for most of us evil piwates that need to have our PvP deterred at every turn because we are so evil What? Are you sure?
Assisted drones should attack the opponent being shot by the assisted pilot.
Controlled drones should attack whoever you tell them to.
All drones are a little bit rogue, so strange things do happen but I've not noticed what you've written. Interested to know if it's true. eve-bazaar - I'm not associated with them, but support it as a worthwhile service |
Dave Stark
4372
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Posted - 2014.02.23 12:51:00 -
[90] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Dave Stark wrote: but why should you only be recognised as a participant in a fight if you did something offensive? .
You are currently recognized for dying in a fight, which isn't offensive, and simply adding in people who 'were there' means that cov ops scouts, in cynos, bombers who never fired a bomb, basically everybody in system deserves to be on every killmail because they're all performing some function in that battle, regardless of the value you personally put on it. Furthermore if your group doesn't properly recognize its logistics hero's then that sounds like a problem with your particular group. We celebrate our logistics pilots and even reward the most dedicated of them in fairly insane ways. The means for logistics to show on killmails is there, it takes almost zero effort from said logistics pilots, stop being greedy, you don't see threads for cov ops scouts wanting to be on killmails, even though most of them too have the means to get on a mail, so why should you be any different. Use the tools that exist and let the game developer focus on fixing the things that matter. Dave Stark wrote:
imagine if the criteria were just killing blows, imagine how upset most combat pilots would feel. they participated just as much as the guy that got the last shot in.
Many people would prefer it were this way so that it removed the intel that can be gathered by a killmail.
i like the way you casually ignore the fact that your suggestion doesn't work in all situations, especially mine. there are no tools to get me on a killmail.
people do love me for being logi, however i've got nothing to show for it other than a few people going "dave's a cool guy" which is nice, but every one else has killmails to link and say "hey look at this" i've just got "yeah i was there too.." but nobody would know.
and there's a difference between "being near by" and "participating" afk cloaking in a system isn't participating. being involved in an actual fight is participating. so no, cyno alts and irrelevant **** that weren't involved in the fight don't need to be on killmails. just because a fight happened because some one lit a cyno doesn't mean they participated in a fight. facilitating =/= participating.
currently the situation is that kill mails simply do not actually resemble what took place in that fight, it just shows a list of people with offensive modules and very little else. currently they're pretty half arsed in that respect. |
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