Use a sentinel for gang action for god sake

Alright, I'm back from a busy weekend of birthday and New Eden Open (If you didn't watch I highly recommend you do!).

First, I wish this stuff was going to Sisi soon so you all could actually get your hands on it, but unfortunately that won't be for a while still. I posted it rather early so that I could get reactions to these themes before investing more work in the other two classes, which has paid off really well for me so thanks for that.

So by now it seems like the Cruor has won as the most contentious with the Worm and Succubus following close behind.

There's actually several reasons why the Cruor ended up like this and I feel pretty good about all of them. The most important is that it's difficult to push the bonuses in a different direction without finding a lot of overlap with other ship(s) and/or getting far too powerful. For instance, if we dropped webs entirely and gave it some kind of range bonus for cap-warfare it ends up competing heavily with the Sentinel or Dragoon AND is likely too powerful. The current layout is very unique and while the range synergy isn't perfect, that certainly doesn't mean the ship isn't useful for powerful. On top of that, a big goal in this pass was to unify the themes across the entire faction line. You will see more of that when I can post the threads for cruisers and battleships, but wanting a set of bonuses that translates well to all three classes is valuable and this Cruor set does that well.

Indeed. I like the neut/nos change on them, but the web change is, in all honesty, a massive nerf to an already underpowered ship. Unless a range bonus is added to both the turrets and the neut/nos as well, then there is absolutely no point in a web range bonus. The ship must be setup for brawling or kiting, mixing the two does not work. This has been shown time and time again with previous ship bonuses that have since been revised.

This is even more problematic for the Ashimmu, a ship that already works very well in the role of heavy tackler. The ashimmu has low dps and a very average tank for a faction cruiser, but anything it touches is instantly brought to a dead stop, even interceptors. The proposed NOS change would fit in perfectly for it and I think have the desired effect. However, the web change cripples the ship. The ONLY thing it has going for it is the ability to tackle, it isn't going to win the gank/tank fight unless it's dps output is doubled. It is a support ship like a HIC, you don't want a fleet of them. Just 1 or 2.

AHAHAHA that is good one

Can you dare to point how many small scale PVP groups can outmatch us? There are afew.. very very few. You are not one of them.


Your statement crumbles on itself. What you are going to do with yuour all halted at 23km when you cannto neut them? You will get CLOSER. Thta is obvious. And anyoen that knwos how toi pilto wil avoid getting under 25 km from an ashimmu. Sicne the ashimmu is slow.. it is not easy to use its 90% web. The long range web is far weaker. But much easier to leverage in combat with the restricted ashimmu mobility.

THe web change on the ashimmu wil change the ship, but combined with the new nos capability the ship wil be slighly more usable (altouygh with a weaker apex power). The cruor on other hand will be a disaster

The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.

As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.

The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)

With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.

In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.

Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.

Web range bonus will be awesome on the Ashimmu and Bhaalgorn. But the Cruor is essentially dead. All the Cruor really needed was a speed and agility boost and a slight buff to damage. This change makes zero sense to me and I'm curious what the thought process behind it was.

The way I see it if the Cruor is brawl fit it can't (or rather it shouldn't) use its extended web range as that would simply help its target escape as the web range is longer than the scram range. Once it scrams it's target it's not really more effective than any other laser brawler, especially if they aren't active tanked, have their own nos, have a cap booster or have non-cap reliant DPS (rockets/drones/autocannons)... then there's always the option to not get within the nos/neut range since 1 unbonused web isn't really going to dictate range. It's also not that tanky so there's also the option to just blap it with high DPS before its nos starts to have any real impact.

If it's range fit... why aren't you in a Hyena?

Anyway, my Cruor will be collecting dust but I'll be looking forward to finally flying the Ashimmu assuming it gets the web range bonus.

Brawling in scram range isn't necessarily a smart idea to do in 70% of situations with the Ashimmu. Scorch projects to over 20km and Neuts and Nos project to 12.6-14km depending on whether they're faction or meta. Web range bonus will benefit the Ashimmu immensely. I would also be surprised if the Ashimmu didn't receive at least a slight speed buff.

[quote=Dun'Gal]

and as Rise said, the web strengh bonus is redundant with the Daredevil, and the only thing we know is that the bonus works better with the Daredevil than with the Cruor. Changing a working ship (the Daredevil) to something else just in the hope the Cruor wil then work is an unreasonable idea based on fealings instead of reason.

I still think that the cruor can't stay as a brawler even with the 90% web its tank is just too bad
the web range bonus on top of a neut range one (maybe with 3-4-3 layout) is IMHO the way to go same for the ashimmu
kinda like this

PS: are you guys really ok with the massive power grid nerf its going to get?

yes that's about the only way either of them can work, with logi, but hold on who in his right mind would bring either of them to a fleet? ah right people using dreads that need a cheap 90% web ship anyone sensible would bring a sentinel or curse of course.

also 12k ehp
http://pastebin.com/eVWSen2k

Why do you keep referring to the Ashimmu's current speed and its current role when we're talking about the future Ashimmu which will almost certainly receive a speed buff? I'm also sorry you're not able to see the value of webbing up to and over faction medium neut range on a cruiser.

Still no update on this........ Feels like an aeon since we last heard any comment. I hope CCP is still listening to feedback. Any comment would be appreciated as to the ETA on getting these on Singularity, and getting the proposals for cruisers and battleships.

Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/

please learn to play, cruor requires 4 lowslots. untanked neuting ships with overpowered webs are really not a good idea. for solo they're extremely powerful and get no fights, and in anything bigger than solo, they're killed instantly. what you're making here is a ship that's not very useful for anything.

Tristan is pretty weak. No damage bonuses, just tracking. We tried issuing them for decloaking at gate camps, but they are slow. Algos and Dragoons get used no where as often as Catalysts or Thrashers. Don't believe me? Go check the trading volume of them.

The Dramiel still sucks compared to other Pirate Faction frigates

This is going to be awesome in small gangs!

These changes are cool, but none of them actually justify the price of these ships.

The Cruor has the worst change of all. Why would I need 20km webs when i can barely shoot and neut/nos past scram range? This is a worthless 'bonus' that is justifiable on a bhaalgorn maybe... but not the frig version.

For the record, all these ships will still suck compared to the dramiel and daredevil if their prices stay the same.

Hello

Fozzie and I spent some time looking at the Cruor today because of your concerns and we decided that we still want to use this as a starting point. Some sisi testing would be really valuable but we still can't make that happen just yet. If we find that things don't go well on sisi or if usage doesn't get a significant bump after TQ release we will probably improve the damage output. For now, all the changes we tried just look too strong to use as a first version.

Hopefully we will have posts on the other pirate classes coming very soon, we were waiting on a dev blog which will have an impact on pirate balance which should be coming out very soon and then we can show you the rest of the ships.

o/

13km neuts are OVERPOWERED. Don't engage in fights you won't be able to take. The Cruor can still engage kiting ships at very long ranges with scorch and the web. It is still effective. Web to slow down faster ships -> Overheated Scrambler -> Neut. Problem solved.

See, this right here is why I have 0 faith in most people's analysis of the Cruor changes. You haven't flown the damn ship before and it shows when you say something like that. Every video I have ever seen with a Cruor has it trying to orbit something at 0... you're not a Taranis or a Daredevil so STOP DOING THAT. You see, when each side has a 60% web, you are chasing each other around so transversal is extremely low... but 60% vs 90% and you should understand that you WON'T chase each other around. If you'd set it to "keep at range" you would not have this problem...

A very big deal with the Cruor is that it cannot fight tanky opponents. It will neut the enemy out but can't keep that neuting going... and it has very low DPS, so fight take longer. Two of these problems are being solved at least partially by adding 2 drones and giving it the Nos bonus - it will become much more fearsome in that aspect. A-type Nosferatu have 10.2km range, but don't fit 2 because you will cry if you don't have a neut... a single nos is enough to keep enemies perma-drained as well as keep your capacitor up, and Neuts still suck cap about 3x as fast as a Nos, so there really is not much reason to use dual Nos.

However, the part that sickens me the most is that Blood Raider are defined by having durability over the Amarrian equivalents, and yet the Cruor is being stuck with a tiny little tank when it is meant for long, drawn out engagements, and CCP doesn't seem to care too much about that :/ so they nerfed its PG like that would help it when Nos take MORE powergrid to fit than neuts, lol. Considering it couldn't fit the largest stuff without Anci Current Router rig beforehand, I don't know why they did this.

TL;DR: Im a troll, i have no experience flying any ship and i will say **** that i memorized in EFT.

http://i.imgur.com/gp4hxed.png
3 launchers instead of 2 not that I mind at all

keep on blobbing bro

Hmmm, I think I like that sort of change a lot. I have always been wanting that fourth low slot, and if you look at that change for pure neut style Cruor, it makes the ship nearly self sufficient as the Nos provides enough cap to run the neuts for a very long time, while lending it a greater tank. For solo Cruor, the nos would hit like a neut... Not particularly stellar but tbh the fact that it gives you capacitor back makes it all worthwhile.

Hey guys

Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.

What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.

We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).

Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.

Let me know what you think.

Make up some rp **** for the cruor so it can get a double range bonus for its guns (is not in line, but the bhaal wasnt either for years), making it a lower dps and slower slicer with a web range bonus and powerfull anti tackle neuts (beef its cap up so it can actually run mwd/point/guns/web for a bit).

Not ideal, but makes it usefull. There just isnt anything you can do about the cruor, it is crap design wise since the blood raider stuff really doesnt fit frigates at all.

Or give it a neut and gun range bonus, making it a weaker malice( lowering the pay to win aspect of the at).

I think an AB dram is better. much more flexibility.

Its faster, but it doesn't have great tracking (even with the bonus its about the same as unbonused blasters), it doesn't have great range and it doesn't have great dps..

Its basically a faster dramiel that is worse at everything else.