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Count TaSessine
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:11:00 -
[1]
Regarding the disagreements regarding the ISSPO outpost locations.
The location planning and subsequent 2 months of hauling was based on information we received through talks with most, if not all, political factions in Providence, incl. CVA in the beginning of March.
A picture speak louder than a thousand posts.
The text in the box dated 11.03 is the totality of the message Aralis gave us regarding CVA's planned future expansion and thus what we had to work with for our planning purposes.
The flow in the picture illustrates how Aralis information was interpreted. If you would have read it in another way, so be it, but that's how we understood it.
Timeline
On April 13, after two months of hard work, all materials for the outposts were finally assembled in 3KB.
On April (xx), CVA ask us to remove a Starbase in L2xx system (which is inside the area we understand Aralis has claimed). This Starbase is totally unrelated to the outpost project. As per policy we recognize that an ISS corp have mistakenly deployed in that system and they take it down.
On April 18, Aralis claim ISS have invaded CVA space by building a number of Starbases in 3KB and refusing to move them. At this time we believe (perhaps mistakenly) that the CVA leadership is aware that they contain all the materials needed for the outposts.
On April 19, in a convo, Aralis let us know that CVA now claims the entire constellation 3KB is in.
On April xx, CVA declare war on ISS and let us know why through a post on the public forums.
On April 19, in a convo and a message in the forums, we tell Aralis that we can no longer move the Starbases. Our pilots have spent hundreds of hours moving the stuff and we're not going to ask them to move it all to a new location.
On April 20, an MC representative and Aralis have a convo in which Aralis voice concerns that ISS will stifle CVA's industrial ambitions in the region.
When we went and asked CVA about where they would like to see a public outpost in Providence, we assumed they knew what it entailed to build outposts since they built one themselves already. Hard work, planning. It's not something you go about doing on impulse.
As for the ISS Charter, there have been no breaches, nor will there be. This is ISS trying our very best to respect the wishes of all factions in Providence.
We ask CVA to consider this:
ISS is not an impenetrable 'wall' against your future plans. ISS is not a barrier, we only 'claim' the systems the outposts are in, and even so I am sure we can agree to CVA building POS in the outpost systems, should they so desire. All systems are fair game.
As an example, in Pure Blind, the FREGE alliance have build a great Starbase network around ISS Borealis, fully benefitting from the nearby public station. We have no problems with that. You can lay claim to systems and constellations beyond the ISS stations if you like.
The stations are actually there for the locals, and that does not mean ISS.
All we ask is that you put down your arms, and let this move forward the way it should. Together, CVA and ISS are a formidable anit-pirate force in Providence. Not working together is folly.
I'm not going to say who is to blame for the misunderstanding about your original claim. All I'm saying is that after April 13, when all materials were assembled in the outpost system, it was too late for a change of heart because the dice had already been thrown.
Please respect that. Let's come to terms now.
Chairman, ISS
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Muadeeb Ousil
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:19:00 -
[2]
Nice info Tess'
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Sidyous
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:25:00 -
[3]
I would personally like to open up talks with you I have to wonder though where the second outpost is planned as obviously we know where the first one is going to be. This is a volatile situation at the moment and i suggest we get a conversation or channel going with some of ISS management and also CVA management. Contact me today and i'll see if we can come up with some agreement. Obviously something went wrong and one of the main problems seem to have been that particular system and constellation. -----------------------------------------------
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ParMizaN
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:35:00 -
[4]
Seems very reasonable. Hopefully ISS and CVA can once again be friends and resume the defence of the innocent citizens of Providence and the surrounding area.
Phenomena of ironies, cast the litany aside How intelligible, blessed be the forgetful |
Aralis
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:43:00 -
[5]
When I put my original post on here it was because you had failed to respond to my in game communications (yes I know you had exterior reasons). The same is not the case here you have made no attempt to contact me and this is publicity.
The timing of this post is in fact set to coincide with ISS attempt to put up an outpost in 3kb. To present the situation as "done - live with it".
Very clever map. Dishonest though. The right hand green constellation you say you thought we claimed is in fact in Catch and I was always clear to you that our interest was only in Providence. If you follow that the correct interpretation is the only possible one. The post you quote from me is not the only communication from me but a summary after our conversation.
The part about the placement of the POS and materials is straightforward lies. We have done sweeps of those systems several times since our initial conversation and they were not there. They were in fact still being assembled with additional fortifications when my first post was placed on these forums.
This is not an attempt at negotiation but to present us with a done deal. How unfortunate that your attempt to put up the outpost failed. If you do succeed we shall regard it as our outpost awaiting us to take possession. The matter will NOT be over. If you want peace you will not build in our space.
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.23 12:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Aralis The post you quote from me is not the only communication from me but a summary after our conversation.
That quote is a copy/paste from your Evemail 2006.03.10 08:35 to myself and the only time you communicated a claim beyond your sov. systems prior to our convo on 04.19.
I look forward to discussing this matter further with a wider group of CVA management.
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Muadeeb Ousil
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Posted - 2006.04.23 13:01:00 -
[7]
Aralis - Project Providence, exactly where did you expect the ISS Station to go?
You can't tell me as CEO of an Alliance you had no knowledge of the project, why wait until now?
Why didnt you simply say 2 months ago when the shares were released - Sry you aint building in our area.
Your personal hatred is judging your viewpoint over something that effects more than yourself.
Be proffesional and think about all the members within the Catch/Providence region.
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Josiah Bleak
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Posted - 2006.04.23 13:31:00 -
[8]
As a straightforward capitalist, I would *suggest* that this situation is resolved by the ISS making a donation in good faith towards the building of a temple towards the late Emperor - 5 billion isk sounds about what it would cost to build - in return for this piety the Amarr Empire might be persuaded to lease the system, under its newly expanded protectorate, to the ISS on a 100 year contract.
Everyone ends up friends, they get to work together to a peaceful pirate free Providence and I get to worship in a place with a cushion for a change.
Josiah Bleak.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.23 13:41:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Why didnt you simply say 2 months ago when the shares were released - Sry you aint building in our area.
I think you'll find that the CVA did inform the ISS of their claim on the area where they are now preparing to build an outpost.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.23 13:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Why didnt you simply say 2 months ago when the shares were released - Sry you aint building in our area.
I think you'll find that the CVA did inform the ISS of their claim on the area where they are now preparing to build an outpost.
Then you need to reset your thinking. The timeline is accurate. Aralis informed of CVA's claim on the area in dispute AFTER the ISS prepared to build an oupost.
A total of 13 systems and heading "North" was not what Aralis originally communicated.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.23 13:52:00 -
[11]
Just to support what Aralis has put.
The map Count TaSessine has put up, whilst fancy is not accurate.
It shows CVA laying claim to systems in Catch. This has never been part of the CVA claim and it has always been clear that we are not interested in claiming any part of Catch.
I challenge anyone to check the area in the EVE map, its the NNLX-K constellation and is most certainly not an area of providence. Nice propaganda though, shame thats all it is.
Oh, and one more thing... and you have my sincerest thanks for putting this down in picture format.
"03.10 CVA Expansion (Evemail) Aralis: We now claim an additional 12 systems leading out from AY-24I to the boundries of Huzzah space filling in the very small gap and then out east to F-YH5B and 3KB-10"
Please note: .... out east to F-YH5B and 3KB-10
Now, we've already had more than enough posts proving the definition of the word "to". You have also been very well aware that the area the CVA is interested in lies purely within the region of Providence.
So to summarise.
1) You mistinterperated the CVA agreement by not accepting the dictionary definition of the word "to", 3KB-10 is mention specifically in the claim as one of the systems that the claim went out to.
2) You misinterperated prior knowledge on CVA operations, which I am well aware you were informed on, which states that the only region in this area we lay claim to parts of is Providence. yet you come out here now and try and pass off the wording of our claim to include a constellation in Catch.
3) Knowing full well that 3KB-10 was specifically mentioned in the claim and we were not happy about it, you go and continue with your outposts plans anyway. In the exact same system.
Conclusions:
Firstly, nice picture. Shame its all innacurate bullsh*t.
And secondly, ISS neutrality and their charter is all very well and good, until it bends under the weight of 50 billion isk.
PS:
How long do you think you can hire the MC for and still make a profit on this?
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.23 13:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Parallax Error
... Please note: .... out east to F-YH5B and 3KB-10
Now, we've already had more than enough posts proving the definition of the word "to". You have also been very well aware that the area the CVA is interested in lies purely within the region of Providence. ...
For future reference: 6 + 6 = 12 = The number of systems ISS originally understood 6 + 7 = 13 = The number of systems CVA apparently claim. 6 + 6 + 1 + 1 = 14 = The number of systems if you include ISS's understanding and your comment on 'to' means blah blah.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:00:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/04/2006 14:00:52
Originally by: Serenity Steele
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Originally by: Muadeeb Ousil
Why didnt you simply say 2 months ago when the shares were released - Sry you aint building in our area.
I think you'll find that the CVA did inform the ISS of their claim on the area where they are now preparing to build an outpost.
Then you need to reset your thinking. The timeline is accurate. Aralis informed of CVA's claim on the area in dispute AFTER the ISS prepared to build an oupost.
The timeline as stated in this thread does not include that fact that the CVA informed you of their plans in February.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
The timeline as stated in this thread does not include that fact that the CVA informed you of their plans in February.
They didn't, the convo was 2006.03.09 - That is why we took the trouble to research the timeline and clarify the facts.
If anyone has a convo prior to that date on this matter between CVA and ISS that states a claim, I'd like to see it.
In either case, the issue is now for CVA and ISS to find a solution.
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Gypsy Djinn
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:09:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aralis When I put my original post on here it was because you had failed to respond to my in game communications (yes I know you had exterior reasons). The same is not the case here you have made no attempt to contact me and this is publicity.
The timing of this post is in fact set to coincide with ISS attempt to put up an outpost in 3kb. To present the situation as "done - live with it".
Very clever map. Dishonest though. The right hand green constellation you say you thought we claimed is in fact in Catch and I was always clear to you that our interest was only in Providence. If you follow that the correct interpretation is the only possible one. The post you quote from me is not the only communication from me but a summary after our conversation.
The part about the placement of the POS and materials is straightforward lies. We have done sweeps of those systems several times since our initial conversation and they were not there. They were in fact still being assembled with additional fortifications when my first post was placed on these forums.
This is not an attempt at negotiation but to present us with a done deal. How unfortunate that your attempt to put up the outpost failed. If you do succeed we shall regard it as our outpost awaiting us to take possession. The matter will NOT be over. If you want peace you will not build in our space.
I have every confidence that CVA shall stand strong and resolute on this matter, as faith and loyalty is a hard path to follow, and even harder to remain on. Never let coin, no matter the denomination or amount, stray you from your path.
While all of your enemies have not yet shown their faces, the Amarrians also have allies that they do not yet realize. Stand your ground and your faith and loyalty shall be paid off in more then coin.
V I R I I HeadQuarters http://virii.homeip.net
V I R I I - We Are Here For Your Daughters
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Corrine Ashtale
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:16:00 -
[16]
FYI: I am an old EVE player that is just returning to the game.
I've been following this argument since CVA's first post about the ISS "invasion," and I have to say this whole thing is pretty weak. First off, CVA don't even claim the systems in question... they PLAN to claim them. I mean come on, you've either got the manpower to claim space as yours or you don't. It's pretty clear that CVA (and in particular Aralis) has operated aggressively in this whole matter. It doesn't seem as if he's interested in resolving this peacefully. It's almost as if he wants a war.
It looks to me like Aralis has been ****ed about ISS's new outposts for some time, and waited until the 12th hour to do something about it, instead of coming to the negotiating table in good faith. He's making a big stink now in the hopes that those outposts won't get built. This misunderstanding (if that's what it is... I'm not convinced it's not just BS on Aralis' part) about which systems were "claimed" (and I use that word in the loosest sense) provided the perfect opportunity for him to agress ISS.
I'm human and so I could be wrong in my interpretation of the events. But just so you know, this is the impression that these events give to a third party.
I realize that peace is in the best interest of all involved, but on a personal note, if CVA have in fact acted in bad faith... I have zero sympathy for them. If my interpretation of the events is correct, I hope MC and ISSN wipe the floor with you.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:20:00 -
[17]
Faith and loyalty to a mistake in not setting up an agreement they could live with. A war they indend to wage on industrialists and any who are associated with them working to build the economy of the Providence region.
That CC and now CDC are declaring your cause just should give the CVA pause more than anyhting ISS have said. Consider who they are, CVA, and consider the naked face of ambition. Turn away from this course before you are paid in fire and flame.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Count TaSessine
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:26:00 -
[18]
Explanation to Paralax: Although we try to keep up with alliance politics, we did not know that CVA would only claim systems in Providence, and not Catch.
Chairman, ISS
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:31:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Count TaSessine Explanation to Paralax: Although we try to keep up with alliance politics, we did not know that CVA would only claim systems in Providence, and not Catch.
Of course you didn't
The fact that only ever Providence has been mentioned to you isn't a big clue? Or at least a great big warning sign to even ask before the POS went up? No of course it isn't because your now on a great big damage limitation exercise aren't you.
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Redwolf
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Serenity Steele I look forward to discussing this matter further with a wider group of CVA management.
There is no 'wider group' for you to deal with.
Aralis is your sole point of contact on this matter.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Faith and loyalty to a mistake in not setting up an agreement they could live with. A war they indend to wage on industrialists and any who are associated with them working to build the economy of the Providence region.
That CC and now CDC are declaring your cause just should give the CVA pause more than anyhting ISS have said. Consider who they are, CVA, and consider the naked face of ambition. Turn away from this course before you are paid in fire and flame.
I do consider who they are, consider that The Priory, who are members of the CDC have a long history of clashing with us in Providence.
We have a long history of reasonably bitter conflict, and yet people who have this history with us and people who are aligned with our historical enemies in Providence are coming out in support of our principled stance.
It does say a lot to me, an awful lot.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Serenity Steele
For future reference: 6 + 6 = 12 = The number of systems ISS originally understood 6 + 7 = 13 = The number of systems CVA apparently claim. 6 + 6 + 1 + 1 = 14 = The number of systems if you include ISS's understanding and your comment on 'to' means blah blah.
So no answer on the fact that 3KB-10 is undisuptedly part of the claim and that your trying to pass off a constellation in Catch as part of our claim?
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Parallax Error
I do consider who they are, consider that The Priory, who are members of the CDC have a long history of clashing with us in Providence.
We have a long history of reasonably bitter conflict, and yet people who have this history with us and people who are aligned with our historical enemies in Providence are coming out in support of our principled stance.
It does say a lot to me, an awful lot.
CDC are just sh*t stirring, shame on you for taking the bait.
CVA are better than that - ISS are trying to engage you in dialouge here, and you just resort to the same old tired arguements.
Why don't you engage them in return and try to move this thing forward in a postive direction?
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Serenity Steele
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Posted - 2006.04.23 14:48:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Originally by: Serenity Steele
For future reference: 6 + 6 = 12 = The number of systems ISS originally understood 6 + 7 = 13 = The number of systems CVA apparently claim. 6 + 6 + 1 + 1 = 14 = The number of systems if you include ISS's understanding and your comment on 'to' means blah blah.
So no answer on the fact that 3KB-10 is undisuptedly part of the claim and that your trying to pass off a constellation in Catch as part of our claim?
Yes of course, including 3KB-10 (and F-YH5B by your same logic) would have meant a total of 14 systems, and heading North of A4.
As the original claim was 12 systems and heading east, 3KB-10 is not part of the claim.
The fact that the systems are officially in the region catch is neither here nor there, ISS respected Aralis' claim as it was written.
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Mr Soto
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Posted - 2006.04.23 15:11:00 -
[25]
You guys should really get a room and solve this in private......
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Archbishop
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Posted - 2006.04.23 15:43:00 -
[26]
While I agree with Aralis 100% that the CVA would never attempt to claim Catch I do see how looking at a map this could be misunderstood. Clearly though it was a mistake and as the CVA has so clearly stated they claim Providence space (never Catch space) for the Empire in hopes one day Amarr will expand I can't see how this was overlooked.
I will ask though as a shareholder in ISS perhaps where are the regions CVA and Huzzah DO NOT claim? While not having been in Providence lately I'm aware of the other "leg" of the region and the fact it is unclaimed by anyone. Given the ISS mission of taming a lawless land would this have not been a better place for the Outpost?
Someone also mentioned that the ISS Providence project couldn't move to Catch? I'll ask "why not"? If taming a lawless land was truly a goal to be obtained why not go to a truly lawless land?
Still I am heartend by the willingness of Count TaSessine to come to the table. While clearly a mistake this does need to be rectified. It also clearly displays the problems with 3D maps as what appears "reasonable" to one is completely unreasonable to others.
So what can be done? I will ask Count TaSessine how long would it take to move the POS materials and outpost materials? How many hauler trips?
I will also ask would the ISS be willing to change their regulations regarding letting pirates and terrorist Minmatar (in particular UshraKhan) using the outpost as long as they are neutral? This is as you realize a major concern for loyal Amarrians dedicated to our Empire. We would not want to see an ISS outpost used as a terrorist staging base.
Either way while flawed the map is a start. Clearly though the CVA has never had plans on Catch so the 12 systems mentioned by Aralis clearly do include the one 3kb-10 is in (next Providence system after the first one). The only question now is what can be done to preserve the peace.
Archbishop
PIE WEBSITE & FORUMS PIE INFORMATION CENTER |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 15:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Archbishop I will also ask would the ISS be willing to change their regulations regarding letting pirates and terrorist Minmatar (in particular UshraKhan) using the outpost as long as they are neutral? This is as you realize a major concern for loyal Amarrians dedicated to our Empire. We would not want to see an ISS outpost used as a terrorist staging base.
Sigh.
The CVA and PIE have talked about ISS violating its charter. I don't believe it has, so far.
However, THIS idea is in clear breach of the ISS charter and it is quite unreasonable to bring it up. The entire term "pirate" is extremely vague, and seems to be based on a NBSI RoE. However, most closed-space alliances also operate a NBSI RoE. And then you have people like us, who are sometimes labled pirates but operate a strict NRDS policy (we don't even shoot pilots in non-pod pilot lead corps unless they hang arround our ships and ignore requests to move on).
Given you have your own outposts in the area, I'd suggest just shooting your enemies where you find them and accept the fact that you won't be able to dock at the ISS station.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.23 15:58:00 -
[28]
According to your own intel we told you we claimed up to 3kb..i just can't see the confusion here. That aside the point is what could be done about it now?
Well you say that you cannot move the outpost materials?
I ask why not? sure its a lot of hauling, but ISS has a lot of haulers with a alarge group you could do this in a few hours as far as i know CVA would be willing to allow this to happen and call off our attacks.
I think the real question that ISS needs to ask here is that is a few hours worth of hauling worth having peace with the CVA and a lot of other corporations or would you prefer to build and outpost that will constantly have the CVA and other corporations attack ISS based operations around it.
While you currently have the MC under employ i cannot see this hauling been a problem.
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Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.04.23 16:04:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Count TaSessine
All I'm saying is that after April 13, when all materials were assembled in the outpost system, it was too late for a change of heart because the dice had already been thrown.
Please respect that. Let's come to terms now.
I admit I am not an expert on outpost construction so correct me if I am wrong, but I was a hauler pilot for the construction of the CVA outpost. Until the outpost platform is actualy deployed, all the materials can be moved the same way they were moved in the first place. Yes it would be a large undertaking, and would take time, but it is most definatly possible.
I will leave it to the diplomats to sort out as I can't speak for them, but I would not be suprised at the possiblity of CVA and its allies providing some form of accomation to ease the movement out of its space of the materials.
This material could be moved to a site that is very comperable in terms of trafic links (same links to catch), still in Providence, a mere 2 jumps away, and most importantly, not in CVA space.
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Kamuyamato Iwarebiko
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Posted - 2006.04.23 16:35:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kamuyamato Iwarebiko on 23/04/2006 16:36:44 It has been said one of problems with relocation is the sheer volume of materials that have been deployed. Freighters are only able to unload materials without the support of a station, so the materials would have to be relocated in normal haulers. A fairly realistic hauler capacity for 0.0 operations for estimation purposes would be 10k m3.
I have heard repeatedly that 4,500k (4.5 Million) m3 of materials must be transported to the Egg between Anchoring and Downtime. Perhaps someone has a more accurate number but I don't believe this is far from the mark.
There are reportedly 4 Large POS heavily laden with weaponry. From personal experience I would ballpark the volume of equipment plus a moderate amount of fuel at 300k m3. Giving us an additional 1,200k (1.2 Million) m3 of materials.
Given my best understanding of CVA's newest claims of space the nearest system outside of that expansion would be 8P9-BM, which is 3 Jumps away. Hauling would be POS -> Gate to 3D-CQU, across 3D-CQU, across F-YH5B, and F-YH5B gate to POS in 8P9-BM. A total of 4 warps.
That is 5,700k (5.7 Million) m3 to move 3 Jumps. This gives us 2,280 'hauler warps' over 510 total round trips. As opposed to the 6 or 7 Freighter loads which deployed it.
This is simply a back of the envelope estimate of what the hauling volume is like. There are of course other logistical concerns. I believe CVA have pledged to leave any attempt to relocate unmolested but I imagine CC/CDC, various other Alliances, or just general miscreants might be interested with all the attention this project has been given recently. |
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Clavius XIV
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Posted - 2006.04.23 16:58:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Kamuyamato Iwarebiko Freighters are only able to unload materials without the support of a station.
My understanding is freighters can't scoop OR jettison, otherwise you could just use freighters to reful POSes.
As someone who hauled for an outpost, yes its a lot of hauling, but considering how small the CVA is compared to ISS it is definatly not someting that is impossible. Inconvient yes. More inconvinent than having a permanent enemy next door, having the constant risk of the outpost being captured in the future a virtual cirtanity, and alienating all the small corps/potential customers in Southern Providence? Highly unlikely
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:08:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Rodj Blake on 23/04/2006 17:11:31
If the structures in the disputed system are so hard to transport out, couldn't the ISS just offer to sell them to the CVA?
But more to the point, am I correct in thinking that ISS continued to move materiel into the system after they were told that there was a problem?
It's almost as though the ISS doesn't want to find a peaceful solution here.
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Corrine Ashtale
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:21:00 -
[33]
If anyone in ISS has a carrier, that could alleviate part of the problem of hauling the materials out of 3KB, should the ISS decide to go that route.
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Ange1
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:26:00 -
[34]
War I say, its profitable
The Establishment is at your service...
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NurAbSal
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:40:00 -
[35]
I am sure CVA would love to help you move those materials from disputed system... Or even buy those from you - you failed to put outpost there today - maybe you should consider this a sign from The Almighty Creator?...
CVA is killing ISS members - i am doing it also - but its just wrong - CVA wrath punish only poor ISS members who have no idea and are not responsible for what happened in 3kb... Lets end this war - CVA wont withdraw from 3kb for sure and wont give up claiming it... so maybe we should choose another options?... I am not director, cant decide, but i look around and i see what is going on... This war is hurting both sides of conflict...
I am dedicated miner... I mine everyday - with my Tachyons... |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:43:00 -
[36]
Why would the ISS sell materials they've spent months hauling in place?
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:45:00 -
[37]
It is good to see that ISS wants to come to the table. However I see no terms here that concede anything whatsoever to the CVA. Of course, what they do in private conversations is what matters here, so PIE will be watching and praying that the ISS do the right thing.
God is with us. PIE Website |
Vandemar Croup
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Why would the ISS sell materials they've spent months hauling in place?
For it could be profitable. That is the Caldari way.
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Rodj Blake
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:53:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Why would the ISS sell materials they've spent months hauling in place?
So you've never hauled good to a station to sell them?
Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:54:00 -
[40]
Except ISS have commited to building 2 stations in Providence. This would mean that they needed to spend another 2 months hauling materials down for another. 2 months hauling puts the price of the materials up, WAY up and sets back the ISS sehedule significantly.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
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NurAbSal
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Posted - 2006.04.23 17:58:00 -
[41]
ISS schedule? Yes... ISS are working to pay investors... And i dont think ISS will be able to earn a lot on the station in 3kb having enemy few jumps from it... Something like that isnt good for trade, you know?...
I am dedicated miner... I mine everyday - with my Tachyons... |
Manfred Doomhammer
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Posted - 2006.04.23 18:02:00 -
[42]
actually, as i have previously stated, the closest system out of cva claimed space is 2 jumps away, wich would be dp-jd4
and there are other means on how this amount can be moved... especially with capital ships at hand, and a ceasefire in effect....
IF peace is wanted and that course of action would be considered, i guess relocating some mere 5.7 million cubicmetres of cargo is really not a problem... ----
Manfred Doomhammer CEO ShadowTec Inc.
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Blacklight
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Posted - 2006.04.23 18:14:00 -
[43]
Airing your dirty laundry in public isn't going to help you.
You should all get out of the public eye and behind closed doors to sort this out.
Eve Blacklight Style
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Ka'lorn Font'a
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Posted - 2006.04.23 18:26:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ka''lorn Font''a on 23/04/2006 18:29:09
Originally by: NurAbSal I am sure CVA would love to help you move those materials from disputed system... Or even buy those from you - you failed to put outpost there today - maybe you should consider this a sign from The Almighty Creator?...
The problems today stemmed from undocumented changes in the Concord Guide to Laying Eggs, nothing more. (())
On a more humerous note (and OOC), a couple of my comrades did wonder how long it would take before the problems encountered were linked to 'signs'.
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Aralis
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Posted - 2006.04.23 18:29:00 -
[45]
I have stated before that we would - of course - let ISS move their stuff out of our space in peace if they let us know it was their intent to do so. We are prepared to negotiate about assistance in leaving too.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.23 18:57:00 -
[46]
Originally by: NurAbSal ISS schedule? Yes... ISS are working to pay investors... And i dont think ISS will be able to earn a lot on the station in 3kb having enemy few jumps from it... Something like that isnt good for trade, you know?...
Well seeing as the CVA are anti-ISS regardless, I don't think it will make much difference.
KDF-GY turns out a healthy profit, and thats based 5 jumps from CDC who are a far scarier and more capable PVP alliance than CVA.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.23 18:59:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
So you've never hauled goods to a station to sell them?
Well I'm sure if CVA had a spare 30bn they might consider it.
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Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.23 19:00:00 -
[48]
CVA are not anti-ISS, CVA are anti-ISS in our space
Aralis may have stated that we do not want ISS in our space, which is quite true, we do not however have ANY problems with ISS deploying an outpost outside our space in providence in fact good luck to them with that.
If they build it in our space however they will have a lot of people shooting them.
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.23 19:06:00 -
[49]
It seems, and correct me if I am wrong, that the claim you have made on that constellation is not recognised as valid under the ISS charter.
Which makes things... interesting. Well, I wish you guys luck in resolving the issue. Together you could be a powerful and stablising force in Providence. Please, don't fight each other, its ultimately self-destructive.
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Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.23 19:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Krackerjack It seems, and correct me if I am wrong, that the claim you have made on that constellation is not recognised as valid under the ISS charter.
Which makes things... interesting. Well, I wish you guys luck in resolving the issue. Together you could be a powerful and stablising force in Providence. Please, don't fight each other, its ultimately self-destructive.
As ISS policy stands an ISS force in our area of providence would only help to destabilise the area as the ISS could be used as a staging point.
3KB is not in the centre of CVA space its true which is why are eyes are not constantly on it, with an ISS outpost there pirates would make better use of the outpost than traders and other law abiding citizens, CVA and the local traders do not want this.
Something that hasnt really been the focus so far are the other corporations in the area that do not want the ISS outpost within CVA space, this is apparent by the fact that 2 of them have declared war on ISS, several others have made ISS KOS within 0.0 and even more have pledged to offer intel on ISS locations for those who are activly shooting them, it might be far from all the corporations in the area however having your potential customers shooting you is never a good thing.
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FowlPlayChiken
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Posted - 2006.04.23 19:25:00 -
[51]
rabble rabble? FNORD!
Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler |
Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.23 19:58:00 -
[52]
As you tried to place the Outpost first and *then* came here asking for talks it looks an awfull lot like you are just trying to buy time for a second try to state 'Sorry, too late due to a misunderstanding. Can we be friends still?'. Doesn't sound like a plan that will work.
Now recruiting!
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Minerma
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:05:00 -
[53]
rabble rabble rabble.....
Just blast CVA outta skyes and get over with. ISS's projects beneffit this game far more than this CVA whatever alliance that keeps whining over a lousy system...
I say show some "rocks" ISS and crash these whiners, too many words been said over this allready
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:18:00 -
[54]
Quote: As you tried to place the Outpost first and *then* came here asking for talks it looks an awfull lot like you are just trying to buy time for a second try to state 'Sorry, too late due to a misunderstanding. Can we be friends still?'. Doesn't sound like a plan that will work.
Just like the Pathetic CVA statement ... I want the whole of Providence ....
The CVA declared war ... I say nuke them and take their Outpost. The only reason they are throwing their teddy bears out of the pram is that they wanted to keep their own personal "cash Cow" running ... and don't want anyone else around that could spoil it.
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Lek'karion
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Minerma rabble rabble rabble.....
Just blast CVA outta skyes and get over with. ISS's projects beneffit this game far more than this CVA whatever alliance that keeps whining over a lousy system...
I say show some "rocks" ISS and crash these whiners, too many words been said over this allready
Well personally I'm always happy to take shots at folks when I'm being paid to kill them. But there are plenty of more fitting targets already floating around in that system that would make the place more pleasant by being atomized rather than CVA and theirs. I would never call myself a follower of all the politcs, but even I believe that there is much more benefit being brought to this region than taken away, espically as a source of an open market where even CVA could bring their goods to sell and boost their own economy, not to mention the possiblity for sharing their own spiritual thoughts with all the traders that will visit the station. It could rightly become an economic and spiritual mecca if this opportunity was explored more fully.
But on the other hand, Merc's don't get paid much for peace breaking out. So either way, economic/spiritual mecca, or war-zone. Eh it works for me.
FEEDING FRENZY ____)\___)\___/(___/(____ ____)\_____\0/_____/(____ ____)\___)\___/(____/(___ |
Beringe
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:24:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Beringe on 23/04/2006 20:24:39
Originally by: Blacklight Airing your dirty laundry in public isn't going to help you.
You should all get out of the public eye and behind closed doors to sort this out.
Yes, that's exactly it.
Take this to private comms, and keep it between those with the power to make decisions. Keeping it in the open like this adds posturing and jingoism from people that are best kept *out* of diplomatic negotiations. ------------------------------------------- "Never underestimate the power of language."
--Daitan Beringe, honorary director in charge of bottles-- |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:26:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Reash As ISS policy stands an ISS force in our area of providence would only help to destabilise the area as the ISS could be used as a staging point.
In other words, true free trade is a threat to your cosy little world. Gee!
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:27:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Reash As ISS policy stands an ISS force in our area of providence would only help to destabilise the area as the ISS could be used as a staging point.
In other words, true free trade is a threat to your cosy little world. Gee!
NurAbSal, and neither is settling for a far worse location for the outpost.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:28:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Reash As ISS policy stands an ISS force in our area of providence would only help to destabilise the area as the ISS could be used as a staging point.
In other words, true free trade is a threat to your cosy little world. Gee!
NurAbSal, and neither is settling for a far worse location for the outpost.
No pirates been able to easily refit/ buy ships in our space is a threat to my cosy little world
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Krackerjack
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:31:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Reash
3KB is not in the centre of CVA space its true which is why are eyes are not constantly on it, with an ISS outpost there pirates would make better use of the outpost than traders and other law abiding citizens, CVA and the local traders do not want this.
But Reash, ISS deny docking rights to pirates and the ISSN are effective against casual piracy - so how could this be true?
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Minerma
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:39:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Lek'karion
Well personally I'm always happy to take shots at folks when I'm being paid to kill them. But there are plenty of more fitting targets already floating around in that system that would make the place more pleasant by being atomized rather than CVA and theirs. I would never call myself a follower of all the politcs, but even I believe that there is much more benefit being brought to this region than taken away, espically as a source of an open market where even CVA could bring their goods to sell and boost their own economy, not to mention the possiblity for sharing their own spiritual thoughts with all the traders that will visit the station. It could rightly become an economic and spiritual mecca if this opportunity was explored more fully.
But on the other hand, Merc's don't get paid much for peace breaking out. So either way, economic/spiritual mecca, or war-zone. Eh it works for me.
QFT
Youre post sums it all up in the most clear way possible BUT it looks like these CVA guys just dont get it....and wether they are thick or have a hidden agenda it really doesnt matter, they want blood. Then by all means, make them bleed. Perhaps this way they will see the light.....
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:41:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tharrn I still don't get why free trade cannot take place a few jumps further.
Why do I even get involved... probably because it all just doesn't make sense. The soultion is there for days already: CVA helps to move the materials as suggested. ISS has an Outpost in unclaimed Providence, everyone is happy.
Given your demonstrated bad faith, bluntly ISS cannot take the security risk of you moving things for them. Or they'd be uterly insane to do so.
Further, you evidently have no idea about how to do traderoute analyses or how ISS picked that particular system for a station, but moving it to somwehere which seems logical and nearby can crush operating profits because far elss people will visit.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Reash
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:41:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Krackerjack
Originally by: Reash
3KB is not in the centre of CVA space its true which is why are eyes are not constantly on it, with an ISS outpost there pirates would make better use of the outpost than traders and other law abiding citizens, CVA and the local traders do not want this.
But Reash, ISS deny docking rights to pirates and the ISSN are effective against casual piracy - so how could this be true?
To my knowldge to be a pirate you must shoot ISS, so any pirate not shooting ISS can still pirate in the area.
Not 100% sure on this but don't ISS allow dcking rights to the sudden death squad? at one point the biggest pirate threat in providence? that info might not be 100% correct but the point is clear.
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:42:00 -
[64]
Quote: I still don't get why free trade cannot take place a few jumps further.
And we don't get why for a system the CVA intially didn't claim, never visted are making such a fuss ... its all down to them losing isk from a public outpost, nothing else.
ISS just kill them and move on .... Eve is bigger than the CVA greedy ideas.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:47:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Zooish
And we don't get why for a system the CVA intially didn't claim, never visted are making such a fuss ... its all down to them losing isk from a public outpost, nothing else.
ISS just kill them and move on .... Eve is bigger than the CVA greedy ideas.
Having fun in the School of Applied Knowledge? After all you haven't moved from it in the entire 4 months and a bit you've been a pod pilot. Are you sure your not just relaying someone elses words? I don't see how a pilot such as yourself is so informed about CVA operations, maybe you should grow a pair and post with your main?
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Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:52:00 -
[66]
Quote: Having fun in the School of Applied Knowledge? After all you haven't moved from it in the entire 4 months and a bit you've been a pod pilot. Are you sure your not just relaying someone elses words? I don't see how a pilot such as yourself is so informed about CVA operations, maybe you should grow a pair and post with your main?
You don't have to a big shot to see how "stupid" the statement " I may want the whole of Providence" sounds. Good one CVA ..
The only thing upsetting CVA is that they may lose some Isk ........ they don't give a damn about the rest of Eve.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.23 20:55:00 -
[67]
Wasn't it the ISS who said this is about ISK? Move on, troll.
Now recruiting!
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Ituralde
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Posted - 2006.04.23 21:31:00 -
[68]
Naturally nobody from Jericho Fraction can appreciate why groups claim space like this. However, it stretches my imagination even further as to why:
1. Anyone would worry so much about claiming providence of all regions;
2. Anyone would care that a very non-hostile neutral party is building an Outpost that they can use that opens up for them greater oppertunity and ease in using nearby space;
3. Anyone would start a war with an incredibly wealthy group such as the ISS over one system in a terrible region;
4. Anyone would waste their ISK on an outpost in that godforsaken region(though I guess really that's besides the point);
5. CVA claims that Aralis should be the sole contact on this issue for ISS yet continues to individually bring points of debate to this board;
6. There has yet to be in this thread a Band of Brothers-related conspiracy theory posted relating to this issue.
Taking this into account in addition to: a. The royal pain involved in moving outposts, b. The potentially high costs of war, c. The potential gain from both parties of having a public outpost in this location, I thus ask,
What is the issue here? What threat is there to the CVA over a 1-system territorial debate? Does the CVA have nothing better to do with their time then squabble and fight a full war over one outpost usable by them placed in a next-to-useless region anyways?
Is this a really stupid issue or am I just missing something completetely?
Fear is the mind-killer. |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.23 21:47:00 -
[69]
Its all down to Isk ... the CVA is trying to claim a region it can't hold so maybe they can stop a public outpost ...
ISS just take theirs ........ I'll pay.
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Phiraga
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Posted - 2006.04.23 21:58:00 -
[70]
CVA is just butthurt that they don't have enough power to deploy Outposts at the same rate as another resident of Providence. Plain and simple. Swallowing one's pride seldom leads to indigestion.
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Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2006.04.23 22:04:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Ituralde Naturally nobody from Jericho Fraction can appreciate why groups claim space like this. However, it stretches my imagination even further as to why:
1. Anyone would worry so much about claiming providence of all regions;
Home is home, you stake your claim and you defend it...that's a pretty simple concept to grasp.
Quote: 2. Anyone would care that a very non-hostile neutral party is building an Outpost that they can use that opens up for them greater oppertunity and ease in using nearby space;
CVA already pointed out ISS could have set up shop just outside of their claimed space and there would have been no war. The main issue is one of sovereignty, although I'm sure there are other reasons to oppose the station, such as it being used as a staging ground for enemies.
Quote: 3. Anyone would start a war with an incredibly wealthy group such as the ISS over one system in a terrible region;
If you claim territory, you must be willing to defend it from all who try to take it away from you. This war is a test of CVA's claim. The outcome will serve as either a warning or a welcome sign to future adversaries who may want to encroach upon CVA space.
Quote: 4. Anyone would waste their ISK on an outpost in that godforsaken region(though I guess really that's besides the point);
You're right...especially in light of recent events, this doesn't look like a good business move.
Quote: Taking this into account in addition to: a. The royal pain involved in moving outposts, b. The potentially high costs of war, c. The potential gain from both parties of having a public outpost in this location, I thus ask,
What is the issue here? What threat is there to the CVA over a 1-system territorial debate? Does the CVA have nothing better to do with their time then squabble and fight a full war over one outpost usable by them placed in a next-to-useless region anyways?
Is this a really stupid issue or am I just missing something completetely?
The issue is that CVA has laid claim to a good chunk of Providence outside of its "official" sovereign systems. Such a claim is worthless if you don't defend it. ISS is setting up shop in a system CVA claims, so there's a war.
This war is a true test of sovereignty. If CVA wins, they can continue to claim the territory. If they lose...well, it's a high stakes game, isn't it?
I wish this war wasn't happening, but I can fully understand why it's happening. So to answer your final question, yes, you're just missing the point. If it's a stupid issue, then our whole pvp-centric galaxy is pretty stupid, too. But that's another debate.... ____________________________________________________________________
Open skies policies are signs of strength and courage, not weakness. |
Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.23 22:07:00 -
[72]
Isn't it funny that most of the anti-CVA posts are made by faceless monkeys while the supporters don't hide behind smoke screens?
Now recruiting!
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Lady Kushrenada
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Posted - 2006.04.23 22:30:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Montague Zooma
The issue is that CVA has laid claim to a good chunk of Providence outside of its "official" sovereign systems. Such a claim is worthless if you don't defend it. ISS is setting up shop in a system CVA claims, so there's a war.
Ill start by intentionally skipping the argument concerning the lack of value to any territorial claim and simply move on.
So in other words this is a war of nothing but territorialist chest-beating on the part of the CVA. This war has absolutely no strategic relevance for the CVA. Really, if they were concerned about enemies setting up shop there then maybe I am just an idiot, but, wouldn't this make declaring war on the ISS seem really counterproductive? Seems like a good way to have an enemy with a rally point right on your border to me. Though perhaps amarrian masculine pride is so much that not even logic stands a chance...
Originally by: Tharrn Isn't it funny that most of the anti-CVA posts are made by faceless monkeys while the supporters don't hide behind smoke screens?
Are you saying my good friend Ituralde is a monkey? I do beleive humans - particularly amarrians - bear that resemblance - But really, he is an honest free-thinking pod pilot that I would hesitate to consider faceless or hiding. Really, I would not even think the small injection of logic can even truly be considered Anti-CVA, simply a touch of honest reason. Unless that touch really hurts that much?
If that was a jab at another, not my corpmate, then please do let me retract that sentiment. I will however maintain that Amarrians (including my dear cormpate) bear distinct resemblance to their animalian progenitors.
One last point.
Originally by: Montague Zooma This war is a true test of sovereignty. If CVA wins, they can continue to claim the territory. If they lose...well, it's a high stakes game, isn't it?
This is no test of soverignty, this is a battle of pride as the ISS has made no territorial claim to any part of providence, merely holding official sovereignty over one system for the sake of deploying thier station. I would argue the true test here for the CVA is between 'pride' and reason.
____________ Fear is the Mind-Killer |
Majaraw Awalabas
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Posted - 2006.04.23 22:34:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Lady Kushrenada So in other words this is a war of nothing but territorialist chest-beating on the part of the CVA.
The motormouth speaks too late. Agreement has been reached before your dribble was published.
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2006.04.23 22:46:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Tharrn on 23/04/2006 22:47:07
Originally by: Lady Kushrenada
Are you saying my good friend Ituralde is a monkey?
You may have noted the word 'most' and I am sure you are aware that I was referring to all those nobodies who have never piloted a spacecraft or left the safety of their training corps. I would never call Fractionites monkeys - heathens or anarchists would be far more fitting.
Now recruiting!
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Lady Kushrenada
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Posted - 2006.04.23 22:50:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Tharrn Edited by: Tharrn on 23/04/2006 22:47:07
Originally by: Lady Kushrenada
Are you saying my good friend Ituralde is a monkey?
You may have noted the word 'most' and I am sure you are aware that I was referring to all those nobodies who have never piloted a spacecraft or left the safety of their training corps. I would never call Fractionites monkeys - heathens or anarchists would be far more fitting.
*giggles*
I still maintain my earlier position concerning the monkey issue and have nothing further to add. ____________ Fear is the Mind-Killer |
Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2006.04.23 23:37:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Lady Kushrenada
So in other words this is a war of nothing but territorialist chest-beating on the part of the CVA. This war has absolutely no strategic relevance for the CVA. Really, if they were concerned about enemies setting up shop there then maybe I am just an idiot, but, wouldn't this make declaring war on the ISS seem really counterproductive?
The war seems to have been most productive for CVA in terms of asserting its sovereignty in the region. They stood firm against a much larger opponent and reached a settlement. CVA has made its point and potential invaders would be wise in heeding this lesson. As for whether you were being an idiot...that is for you to decide. ____________________________________________________________________
Open skies policies are signs of strength and courage, not weakness. |
Zooish
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Posted - 2006.04.24 01:38:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Zooish on 24/04/2006 01:38:46
Quote: The war seems to have been most productive for CVA in terms of asserting its sovereignty in the region. They stood firm against a much larger opponent and reached a settlement. CVA has made its point and potential invaders would be wise in heeding this lesson. As for whether you were being an idiot...that is for you to decide.
I would hush before you talk CVA into losing their Outpost. If the CVA an Puppets think I'm joking .... keep posting.
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Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2006.04.24 01:54:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Zooish Edited by: Zooish on 24/04/2006 01:38:46
Quote: The war seems to have been most productive for CVA in terms of asserting its sovereignty in the region. They stood firm against a much larger opponent and reached a settlement. CVA has made its point and potential invaders would be wise in heeding this lesson. As for whether you were being an idiot...that is for you to decide.
I would hush before you talk CVA into losing their Outpost. If the CVA an Puppets think I'm joking .... keep posting.
I'm sure the known universe is quaking in its boots by the bold words of a member of School of Applied Knowledge.
I am a solo corp and speak for only for myself. My knowledge of this war is limited almost entirely to what was posted here. I post my views without hiding being an alternate identity.
Anyone who would take action against CVA or ISS because of my interpretation of events is even more clueless than I am. ____________________________________________________________________
Open skies policies are signs of strength and courage, not weakness. |
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