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Grayland Aubaris
Ocellus Technology
28
   |
Posted - 2014.03.10 15:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Heya guys,
How about we change how bumping works? At the moment a tiny ship can bump a much larger ship to prevent it from aligning - I suggest that this be changed to take into account the mass of both ships - so a small ship cannot effectively bump a larger ship.
BUT...
Introduce a new module - "Ramming Module"
This is a med slot item that can be activated giving the ship a much higher ability to bump ships -> back to the levels they are at now. If you bump any ship whilst this module is activate you get a suspect timer. This will allow people to still bump ships in an offensive way and allow the bumpee (if that's not a word it needs to be) the chance to fight back.
Oh and no, I haven't lost a ship to bumping or anything like that - the idea just came to me and I thought I would share it :)
Thoughts?
|
admiral root
Red Galaxy
Disband.
942
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 17:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
You haven't explained why bumping is a problem in the first place. (Hint: it's not).
No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff |
Bohneik Itohn
Universal Freelance
CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
17
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 17:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
admiral root wrote:You haven't explained why bumping is a problem in the first place. (Hint: it's not).
It's a problem in very specific cases, such as when someone fits a cruiser with an oversized AB and goes bumping freighters as they undock just to waste their time, because the bumper's time is so worthless that they have nothing better to do with it.
Bumping is a war tactic and that's fine. It's useful. But in war, people shoot at you for getting frisky with their ship. In high sec the only thing a freighter can do is dock back up or wait until the bumper gets bored and moves on with their life.
The most important part of this suggestion is the suspect timer. Bumping in high sec has no risk to the bumper, but increases the risk to the freighter being bumped. Nothing in Eve should be without risk.
Suspect status in high sec for aggressively bumping someone is a good idea, in my opinion. There are a lot of possible options popping in my head right now that may make it functional, but they'll need some time to sort themselves out. Maybe I won't forget about this thread by then. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1895
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 17:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Posting in a stealth "nerf miner bumping" thread. |
Grayland Aubaris
Ocellus Technology
28
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 17:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
admiral root wrote:You haven't explained why bumping is a problem in the first place. (Hint: it's not).
You are correct - I neglected to mention why I think this is an issue and it is for the reason Bohneik Itohn states - and that is that it is risk free for the bumper as a way to keep a ship from warping pre-gank.
Also it hurts my brain that a tiny ship can have a massive effect on a bigger one, though I realise this is just a game :P
Besides, I think the main aim of my idea was to promote more pew-pew. Which is always good.
|
Arthur Aihaken
Arsenite
3035
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 17:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Grayland Aubaris wrote:Introduce a new module - "Ramming Module"
Isn't this called a "Microwarpdrive"?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |
Grayland Aubaris
Ocellus Technology
28
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 17:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Posting in a stealth "nerf miner bumping" thread.
I don't mine.
Also why does everything have to be a stealth-this or stealth-that thread these days?
Posting in a 'I wanted to post something but didn't have anything relevant to say in response thread' |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
2228
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 17:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
There is no problem with bumping.
Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement |
Grayland Aubaris
Ocellus Technology
28
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm not suggesting that there is a problem with bumping per say - or that it should be nerfed or removed - I am suggesting that it become a more viable tactic via the use of modules but that you get a suspect flag.
If I were to ram someone in my car I'm pretty sure the cops would be after me 
The reason I say that it should be a module is so that the system can differentiate between the carnage that is the jita undock and someone offensively using it as a tactic.
I suspect the main use would be to bump people off stations and stargates during those ever so awesome station-games that get played.
Cos everyone loves station games.
Posting in a stealth 'This is not a nerf stations games thread'
Edit: Of course bumping a war target does not get you flagged. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1895
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Freighters would continue to be bumped on the Niarja gate, even with this module. In fact, virtually all cases of offensive bumping would remain and so nothing would change.
The only thing that wouldn't change is the case of a lone frig bumping a freighter for ten minutes while he waits for his buddies to arrive for the gank - and then only if the freighter had an armed escort/anyone within optimals cared enough to shoot.
It's been my experience that nobody actually flies as a freighter escort unless you pay them quite handsomely and that in highsec people don't generally ever shoot suspects. |
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
330
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
You have not detailed a problem. Just what you think is a problem.
Frankly most of the people who think bumping is an issue worth nerfing many low/null/highsec PvP tactics over are miners cranky about being bumped, and freighters who stupidly hauled far too much valuable cargo and got ganked.
I don't think it's an issue. I absolutely don't think it's something that's worth significant changed to the physics engine, additions of new modules, and dev time spent on it, as well as collateral effects like the loss of the awesome Drebuchet and capital pinball.
Why do you think it is such a problem? This is a serious question.
|
Bohneik Itohn
Universal Freelance
CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
20
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah it is a bunch of cranky miners and greedy haulers complaining about it. The reason they're complaining is because they can't call corp-mates to jump the bumper, they can't dock up and grab their combat ship to fight back, and it's just annoying as hell.
You afraid of giving the carebears a way of fighting back? I thought that was the very thing that irritated you about them.
There are ways to do this without changing the way bumping works in low and null in any way whatsoever, you just have to get over the fact that it's a high sec problem and think about it for a few seconds, because fixing this problem will actually make things much more interesting. |
Mag's
the united
SCUM.
16860
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Grayland Aubaris wrote:Thoughts?
As has been pointed out, we already have this in game.
Also bumping is working as intended, so doesn't need a solution.
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kimmi's Thinking Cosy. |
Batelle
HOMELE55
2181
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:26:00 -
[14] - Quote
bumping is only a problem when someone uses noobship aggro to prevent you from logging off your freighter while they slowly kill you over a period of 40 minutes (yes this is done).
"CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1895
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
I do like the idea of freighters being able to have escorts that can actually serve a purpose other than webbing the freighter.
Pity this is the wrong game for that and nobody would actually shoot a hostile bumper in highsec. |
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
331
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:There are ways to do this without changing the way bumping works in low and null in any way whatsoever, you just have to get over the fact that it's a high sec problem and think about it for a few seconds, because fixing this problem will actually make things much more interesting.
In order for that to be true you either need a halfassed modification where the physics changes and the need for this mod only occur in highsec (Bad game design), you automatically make bumping into another person result in a weapons timer and suspect in null/low (bad on so many reasons), or you force people in nullsec to fit a mod specially for bumping. Potentially identical clones of MWD's/AB's with the bumping aspect attached, but that's one again very poor sloppy game design.
Frankly, in highsec where the only risks are people getting suicide ganked, and getting bumped out of range of a rock while they are afk with their head in the fridge, they can just deal with it. One small downside of non perfect convince for the ability to sit around in total safety until someone decides to gank them. |
Bohneik Itohn
Universal Freelance
CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
20
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:I do like the idea of freighters being able to have escorts that can actually serve a purpose other than webbing the freighter.
Pity this is the wrong game for that and nobody would actually shoot a hostile bumper in highsec.
Nope, nobody would ever attack a ship that was fit for ramming sitting at a gate all by itself with suspect status...
And station games, does anyone mess around within docking distance of a station anymore? I haven't seen that happen in ages... |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1897
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
If you haven't seen docking-range station games, you clearly haven't been to Dodixie, Amarr, Jita, Rens or Hek lately. |
Grayland Aubaris
Ocellus Technology
28
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 18:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:
Why do you think it is such a problem? This is a serious question.
I'm thinking of the pre-gank scenario here specifically, and the problem (in my opinion) is that this is an offensive action - as you are preventing someone from being able to leave / escape through the game mechanics with the intention of killing them. The victim has no chance to defend themselves even if this goes on for hours.
By making it a module based action against someone then the person doing the bumping assumes some risk.
I freely admit that I have not been a victim or instigator of this sort or action so perhaps I am not the best person suggest such a thing. It just seemed obvious to me 
Oh and I don't think that changing the bumping mechanics would require a massive change to the physics engine, only the calculation that determines what happens when one or more objects collide.
|
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
332
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 19:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Grayland Aubaris wrote:Anhenka wrote:
Why do you think it is such a problem? This is a serious question.
I'm thinking of the pre-gank scenario here specifically, and the problem (in my opinion) is that this is an offensive action - as you are preventing someone from being able to leave / escape through the game mechanics with the intention of killing them. The victim has no chance to defend themselves even if this goes on for hours. By making it a module based action against someone then the person doing the bumping assumes some risk. I freely admit that I have not been a victim or instigator of this sort or action so perhaps I am not the best person suggest such a thing. It just seemed obvious to me Oh and I don't think that changing the bumping mechanics would require a massive change to the physics engine, only the calculation that determines what happens when one or more objects collide.
Stuff running into each other is a fairly important part of the physics engine you know...
As to escaping, if they are not suiciding noobships into you to keep aggro timer, then just safe logoff. Poof.
Even if this is a problem (I don't think so), there is still no way to change it without making massive issues. You can't arbitrarily say "Ok, these modules are only needed to bump in highsec, everywhere else the physics operate like normal". Moving it into a psuedo prop module would mean populating bumping versions of every single AB and MWD in addition to the normal one. Putting it on a non perfectly identical to the normal propulsion mod counterpart ones means direct impact in low and null with ships forced to fit the special ones to retain bumping capabilities, where bumping targets so they cannot warp is a very very important tactic. you cannot put it on anything besides a prop mod without it taking up an additional slot. A huge deal.
It also means that ships that previously drop a MWD/AB of a type (say officer) now can drop either, with massive effects on their value, since everyone in nullsec will want ONLY the bumping one, and everyone in highsec except wants ONLY the non-bumping one, since you could quite literally fling yourself in front of these ships and get permission to kill them, like the "Throw yourself in front of a car then sue" scam, except more robbery and murder.
You also need to reduce the effect of bumping so much that you cannot just fit a non bumping one and bump the slight amount needed to keep a ship from warping. That means making everyone so incredibly brick unmovable that you could then just shove a ship in front of an aligning target and that would completely prevent them from warping as well.
So TLDR: Problem with a very questionable need to be fixed, no way to fix it without messing up tons of other things, requires a lot of dev time to implement, clutters the database, market and drops, nerfs other tactics, and is completely ineffective to boot. |
Grayland Aubaris
Ocellus Technology
29
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 20:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:
Stuff running into each other is a fairly important part of the physics engine you know...
Even if this is a problem (I don't think so), there is still no way to change it without making massive issues. You can't arbitrarily say "Ok, these modules are only needed to bump in highsec, everywhere else the physics operate like normal". Moving it into a psuedo prop module would mean populating bumping versions of every single AB and MWD in addition to the normal one. Putting it on a non perfectly identical to the normal propulsion mod counterpart ones means direct impact in low and null with ships forced to fit the special ones to retain bumping capabilities, where bumping targets so they cannot warp is a very very important tactic. you cannot put it on anything besides a prop mod without it taking up an additional slot. A huge deal.
It also means that ships that previously drop a MWD/AB of a type (say officer) now can drop either, with massive effects on their value, since everyone in nullsec will want ONLY the bumping one, and everyone in highsec except wants ONLY the non-bumping one, since you could quite literally fling yourself in front of these ships and get permission to kill them, like the "Throw yourself in front of a car then sue" scam, except more robbery and murder.
You also need to reduce the effect of bumping so much that you cannot just fit a non bumping one and bump the slight amount needed to keep a ship from warping. That means making everyone so incredibly brick unmovable that you could then just shove a ship in front of an aligning target and that would completely prevent them from warping as well.
So TLDR: Problem with a very questionable need to be fixed, no way to fix it without messing up tons of other things, requires a lot of dev time to implement, clutters the database, market and drops, nerfs other tactics, and is completely ineffective to boot.
I'm not suggesting that bumping with this new module only works in high-sec. It would work the same in all areas of space. Also I am not sure where the idea of making this a propulsion mod came from, or that you would need to have bumping versions of the other propulsion modules - I'm not suggesting this at all.
You could get around people throwing themselves in front of you by making it a targeted module, as in you have to lock someone an activate it on them - but this is getting too complicated now - any solution needs to be simple.
I will admit defeat on finding a solution to someone 'blockading' people with their ships that cannot be bumped. I fear that you may indeed have struck upon the main problem with this idea. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1019
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 20:42:00 -
[22] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Suspect status in high sec for aggressively bumping someone is a good idea, in my opinion. There are a lot of possible options popping in my head right now that may make it functional, but they'll need some time to sort themselves out. Maybe I won't forget about this thread by then.
I don't see why a lone cruiser should be capable of completely overpowering a capital ship merely by bumping it. It should take lots of cruisers, a couple battleships, or another capital ship.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Mazzara
Gale Force Contractors
5
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 20:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
admiral root wrote:You haven't explained why bumping is a problem in the first place. (Hint: it's not).
So says a bumper.
Bumping is a huge problem and just because ccp hasn't really said much on the matter doesn't mean its not a BS way of holding someone till your buddies get there.
I'm sure tho you could tell me how a Rifter that has the full mass of a fart, can keep a giant freighter from jumping into warp?
I mean really if you throw a rock at a car getting on the interstate it doesn't wobble back and forth on the on ramp until the rock goes away.
I've said in posts before bumpers will pull every line out of the book to defend this BS game breaking practice bumping. Whats even funnier is when they get mad the second someone suggests a fix, always screaming your going to break the game. |
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
333
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 20:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Bohneik Itohn wrote:Suspect status in high sec for aggressively bumping someone is a good idea, in my opinion. There are a lot of possible options popping in my head right now that may make it functional, but they'll need some time to sort themselves out. Maybe I won't forget about this thread by then. I don't see why a lone cruiser should be capable of completely overpowering a capital ship merely by bumping it. It should take lots of cruisers, a couple battleships, or another capital ship.
Can you see why a very small fast moving chunk of lead is capable of ventilating people, or why a very large piece of steel/tungsten is capable of destroying a target? That whole mass x velocity bit is quite important.
An oversized MWD stabber bumping an Obelisk is a ship with a mass of 6% of the freighter while moving at over 6km a second. Just a rough hackjob napkin calculation gives bumping an unmoving freighter with said stabber an impact of roughly 3.5x as much as a freighter ramming into the same stationary freighter.
Freighters are enormous, light, mostly empty boxes, not huge citadels of solid plating. When one get hit by a cruiser sized vessel with a massive rocket strapped to it going at top speed, it's going to get bumped. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
1898
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 20:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:So TLDR: Problem with a very questionable need to be fixed, The need to fix it isn't "very questionable". It should be fixed. The questionable part is how high-priority it is compared to other problems.
Quote: no way to fix it without messing up tons of other things, Silly ideas like suspect flags and special modules are exactly that - silly ideas. Just tweak the physics engine so that mass actually has an appropriate effect on ship-to-ship interactions. It wouldn't even mess anything up.
Quote: requires a lot of dev time to implement, clutters the database, market and drops, Tweaking the physics engine does none of these things.
Quote: nerfs other tactics, and is completely ineffective to boot. Some tactics deserve a bit of nerfing, especially where the risk/reward ratio is a bit askew. Securing yourself a big juicy kill - in any sec - should require a little bit more initial outlay than a Slasher.
I've always found it hilarious that my MWD Breacher can bump Orcas and freighters so significantly with just one impact that their align time is doubled or even tripled. |
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
333
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 21:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
The need to fix it isn't "very questionable". It should be fixed. The questionable part is how high-priority it is compared to other problems.
This is an opinion, and one which much of the playerbase disagrees with.
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I've always found it hilarious that my MWD Breacher can bump Orcas and freighters so significantly with just one impact that their align time is doubled or even tripled.
I find it hilarious that you believe a small object of only a relatively small percentage of the target moving at massive speed wont have a significant effect on the target in a zero grav environment.
Here, have a collection of various examples of people getting hit with smaller objects moving at high speeds and being knocked over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EccA4Xcxqn4 |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1020
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 21:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Anhenka wrote:An oversized MWD stabber bumping an Obelisk is a ship with a mass of 6% of the freighter while moving at over 6km a second. Just a rough hackjob napkin calculation gives bumping an unmoving freighter with said stabber an impact of roughly 3.5x as much as a freighter ramming into the same stationary freighter.
An oversized MWD stabber should be able to bump a freighter. An oversized MWD stabber has over half the mass of a battleship and several times the velocity. Your point is null. We're talking about frigates with small prop mods bumping capital ships. Simple fact of the matter is that the capital ship's engines are many times as powerful, so it should take more than 1-2 frigates with 1MN MWDs to completely prevent a freighter from being able to align. A frigate hitting a freighter at 4km/s with 1.6 million kg mass should alter the freighter's velocity by about 0.17% of the frigate's velocity, or 6.8m/s. That's still pretty significant, given how long it takes for the freighter to recover and how little time it takes for the frigate to come around again. But that way at least it would take several frigates to prevent a freighter from aligning to warp.
edit: it's another Anhenka post! 
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
334
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 22:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:edit: it's another Anhenka post!
Yeah, still here. Still stuck sitting around with my leg in a splint, unable to do much besides sit here. Stairs+Ice = Immobility.
While some slight tweaks in inertia/mass/whatever calculation might prevent a frigate from bumping a freighter off course for more than a few seconds (Ok I guess..), it still wont do anything to prevent what was brought up as an initial issue: People bumping freighters in highsec. Unless the typical tool of a highsec bumper is a slasher or something, which I rather doubt :).
The little highsec bumping I have seen has mostly been MWD fit stabbers, canes, and Machariels, all of which have enough mass to bump with ease given enough speed.
As far as null goes for frigate bumping, there's two frames of thought
A: It's a JF, and I don't need to bump it cause I'm tackling it and it can't do anything.
B: That's not a JF, and there's not a chance in hell of me running in to bump it in a frigate because there's a 99% chance it has smartbombs, nuets, webs, or the like that will turn me into spacedust if I get close to it, or warriors that will kill me if I stop orbiting at 6k/second.
Well aside from dreads, but since dreads are typically either completely screwed or in good shape to get out, there's not much use in bumping them. |
Count Trev
Limiko Corp
0
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 22:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
I mine, therefore I am. Lol. I don't have time to do PvP or waste my life roleplaying or being someone else's tool in their endless WarDecs. I like Eve, I play the game, I pay for the account, and therefore I do have a problem with bumping.
First, I'm not talking about bumping a freighter to stop it from aligning so it can get ganked, but I always thought it was silly escorting said freighter since I couldn't really do much if someone decided to be aggressive. I'm talking about people bumping you out of mining belts just because they can. they have no risk, there is no action that can be taken against them without Concord intervention. The ships they're bumping are larger and more expensive and not likely to try and gank; usually not armed.
Spacecraft are like aircraft. Structural integrity is all important. Anything more than a minor bump renders them unsafe. Yet we take a frig/cruiser, strap a MWD to it, let it collide at lightspeed with an object twice its size, or more, and then imagine there is no dmg so that it can do this over and over without penalty.
I like the module idea. I also think that if we can anchor a station, or a can, we should be able to anchor a mining barge. If someone wants to ram you, more than incidental bumping that occurs at gates and stations, then there should be dmg and it should affect their speed, electronics, fire control, etc. making them suspect for high speed rams sounds like an improvement.
I pay to play Eve the same as any PvP player. If the PvP guys could get rid of the miners they would. But who would make your ships then? Who would mine the ore necessary to build them? And who would mine the ice belts for fuel for your jump freighters, carriers, dreads, and titans? We are as essential to the game as you are.
make high speed bumpers suspects
make serious dmg part of the consequences for high speed bumping
allow us to anchor our barges
give us some tool to fight back against those who aren't doing it for some strategic warfare type reason, but just to harass other players
|
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1020
|
Posted - 2014.03.10 22:29:00 -
[30] - Quote
People who want to bump hard use the best, of course, but bumping is pretty effective in any ship that can move. I wouldn't use a shuttle for it but that's not to say I haven't done it. Even shuttles can bump freighters out of alignment. MWD frigates can do it exceptionally well.
Anhenka wrote:Still stuck sitting around with my leg in a splint, unable to do much besides sit here. Stairs+Ice = Immobility
Ouch! That sucks! Ice is scary sometimes.
Hey now, I'm not trying to make you go away or anything. I'd just prefer if you check your words before you hit post, that's all.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
And bring back the missile Inquisitor!! |
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