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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 93	Posted - 2014.03.25 17:42:00 - [1] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: I see this as using a game as the means to an end. Not playing a game and taking advantage of the mechanics. Pulling people outside of the game for their twisted amusement is the modus operandi of pedophiles and psychopaths. CCP could wash their hands of this legally, but once something bad happens out-of-game things will get really bad for them really fast. The press is not your friend, CCP. Nip this in the bud. Mittanigate was a worldwide sensation (in the gaming press) and what he did was nothing compared to what Erotica1 has going on. You are in for a world of hurt if you don't get a handle on this. Mr Epeen Yes. This activity is clearly outside of the game. The scam was successful and finely done. Sohkar lost all in game items and gave up his API and IP address. Erotica 1 could have stopped at that point with a clear, effective, and fine scam. Instead the activity was moved to an outside Teamspeak server presumably to avoid 6.A.5 of the EULA (no abusive or harmful conduct). The rest of the activity was only related to the game in that Erotica 1 demanded various services for in game items. In this case Erotica 1 seems to prefer humiliation and rage **** instead of money. Learn the boundaries of the game. Play hard and mean in the game. Outside enjoy life with your wonderful fellow gamers.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 95	Posted - 2014.03.25 17:50:00 - [2] - Quote Lady Areola Fappington wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Erotica1 is, with malice, willful forethought and intent, extorting/blackmailing victims OUTSIDE OF THE GAME by holding their INGAME items ransom I don't know about that. According to EVE, once you give your items to someone else, those items then belong to that person. So in other words Erotica 1 was offering in game items for services outside of the game?
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 97	Posted - 2014.03.25 17:58:00 - [3] - Quote Malcolm Shinhwa wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Malcolm Shinhwa wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Erotica1 is, with malice, willful forethought and intent, extorting/blackmailing victims OUTSIDE OF THE GAME by holding their INGAME items ransom Erotica 1 uses Eve Voice instead of Teamspeak. Reformulate your argument. Go! False. Teamspeak. And if it is happening in EveVoice, then it is all the more reason for CCP to immediately take action in order to avoid possible legal repercussions to itself, and to protect its clients feom this kind of illegal activity by persons utilising their service for those purposes. It was a hypothetical. All of your previous arguments hinge on it being OUTSIDE OF THE GAME. So you'll need new ones to address the hypothetical of Eve Voice instead of Teamspeak. Now tell us why it is illegal. Illegal? The laws of various countries and states may claim jurisdiction based on Erotica 1's location or other details. It wouldn't matter if it was in or out of game. Against the EULA. Sections 6.A.5 bans using any of CCP's communication methods for harassing, abusive, or harmful conduct. Yes it is broad. Yes you probably break the rule often. Yes it allows CCP to ban people when they like. For instance if they decide that Erotica 1 is providing bad publicity then the use of in game communication methods would provide the excuse to ban.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 98	Posted - 2014.03.25 18:19:00 - [4] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Actually it's very different, extortion and blackmail in real life involves real currency and assets, generally owned by or the responsibility of the victim. The real life currencies and assets are generally not recoverable by their legitimate owner after the crime has been committed. In Eve every single asset and item of currency belongs to CCP, not the individual being blackmailed, as such if those assets and currency stay within the game they remain the property of CCP. Nothing is stolen from the legitimate owners of the property, which is CCP. All assets and currency held by players are on loan from the owners of said items, CCP. Nothing of any value is lost to ingame blackmail, scamming or ransom. It all remains the property of CCP who can take it back at any time, for any reason they see fit. Erotica1 was clearly looking for services, actions to be performed by Sohkar (and others). Those actions were to be performed outside of the game on a Teamspeak server. Erotica1 may have used coercion to obtain those services. Thus a crime of extortion may have been committed. If the activities were outside the game then Erotica1 was clearly offering in game items (or to make in game actions) in return for out of game services (or actions). It may be that Erotica1 had no intention of providing those in game items (or in making certain in game actions).
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 98	Posted - 2014.03.25 18:25:00 - [5] - Quote Batelle wrote: True, but unless erotica1 et al dox the guy and start calling him, emailing him, contacting his friends & family, or otherwise defame him, its still not harassment. Getting **** on via a consensual phone call that you've consented to have recorded is not harassment. But if you are coerced then the phone call may not be consensual in all jurisdictions, and if you are coerced to agree to the recording then the consent is not really consent. Honestly the police, and lawyers can take up the legal issue as they desire. Whether this happened in game or out of game it seems clear that CCP could ban Erotic1, the question is do they want to.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 100	Posted - 2014.03.25 18:44:00 - [6] - Quote Toshiro Ozuwara wrote: Kadl wrote: Erotica1 was clearly looking for services, actions to be performed by Sohkar (and others). Those actions were to be performed outside of the game on a Teamspeak server. Erotica1 may have used coercion to obtain those services. Thus a crime of extortion may have been committed. If the activities were outside the game then Erotica1 was clearly offering in game items (or to make in game actions) in return for out of game services (or actions). It may be that Erotica1 had no intention of providing those in game items (or in making certain in game actions). Whether it's criminal or not, it's probably abhorrent behavior based on even the White Knight's posting in this thread. Yes Erotica1's behavior after the scam should be condemned. The question of legality is all about what laws actually exist in the proper jurisdiction. I think it is obvious that CCP can ban Erotica1. They could also take lesser actions. The point that Jester clearly made is that actions like this are something that CCP should consider in light of the type of publicity they create.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 100	Posted - 2014.03.25 20:24:00 - [7] - Quote EVE is an internet spaceship game. It is not a Teamspeak game where we coerce people to do humiliating stupid things, and pressure them into an emotional frenzy. There are a number of defenders for Erotica1 here who seem to have forgotten that the EVE sandbox has boundaries based on the relevance to internet spaceships on one company's set of servers. A good sportsman can congratulate, be friendly, and kind to his opponents. Poor winners disrespect their opponents, gloat and continuously remind the losers of their loss. It is utterly clear that Erotica1 is a terrible sportsman, who does not understand the boundaries of EVE the internet spaceship game. Why am I seeing all these complaints about sore losers, but nothing about the bad winners? Sportsmanship must be cultivated among all players. The boundaries of EVE are all of those things which bring you advantage within the game. Scamming, ganking, and stealing of in game items are all obviously part of the EVE game. The meta game including spying obviously can also bring in game advantages. EVE has a rich and interesting meta game, but all of that should provide additional advantages in game. Erotica1 successfully scammed Sohkar out of everything. Congratulations! Erotica1 continued to humiliate Sohkar after he had all of his stuff. Reprehensible! That was bad sportsmanship. It may have been illegal. CCP may wish to provide sanctions so as to reduce the effects of these events on their game. They may also wish to figure out policies which improve sportsmanship in the game for everyone.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 107	Posted - 2014.03.25 20:39:00 - [8] - Quote Navi Annages wrote: CCP can do nothing legally for any personal conversations that happen outside of the game. Get real. When brought to their attention CCP can and will inform the police of potential situations. There has been a recent case of someone woken up in the middle of the night by police due to suicide claims related to EVE. If the action was illegal then Sohkar could inform the police. If the action was against civil law then Sohkar could contact his lawyer and seek monetary damages. I doubt that either of these things are going to happen, but they could, and the nature of the situation may lead Sohkar to win. CCP's only options are to ban or penalize Erotica1. The EULA is broad and vague so that CCP has power in this sort of situation.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 107	Posted - 2014.03.25 20:42:00 - [9] - Quote Happy Campers wrote: Player burnout metagame wars tend to disagree about the psychological pressure bit. And yes everyone is involved in a war of this type even if not knowingly. The player burnout metagame sucks as a mechanic, but at least it has specific noticeable in game advantages which are gained by playing it.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 107	Posted - 2014.03.25 20:44:00 - [10] - Quote baltec1 wrote: The best part of all of this is if not for all of the white knighters this event would have gone totally unnoticed. As it is a lot more people have now heard this recording. Well done defenders of the weak. I have seen white knighters applied to both sides of this debate now. There are white knights defending Erotica1 and there are white knights arguing that simply desiring pain and agony is not an acceptable game goal.

Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 108	Posted - 2014.03.25 20:55:00 - [11] - Quote Volar Kang wrote: Sadly, I have to agree that no terms of the game were violated. Erotica talked the person out of the game and into another environment where the humiliation took place. I would not expect CCP to become involved. On the other hand, there is something seriously wrong with Erotica and her friends. So Erotica1 offered in game items for out of game services. You sing for me and you will get all of these items back. That is RMT, which CCP dislikes with a passion. Just because something happens outside of CCPs servers doesn't mean that they should ignore it.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 108	Posted - 2014.03.25 21:01:00 - [12] - Quote TigerXtrm wrote: Kadl wrote: Volar Kang wrote: Sadly, I have to agree that no terms of the game were violated. Erotica talked the person out of the game and into another environment where the humiliation took place. I would not expect CCP to become involved. On the other hand, there is something seriously wrong with Erotica and her friends. So Erotica1 offered in game items for out of game services. You sing for me and you will get all of these items back. That is RMT, which CCP dislikes with a passion. Just because something happens outside of CCPs servers doesn't mean that they should ignore it. Singing is a currency these days? No. Neither are cigarettes in most of the world. If I offered you 100,000 isk for a pack of cigarettes it would still be a banable trade. Don't get hung up on the acronym, your literalism won't help you with CCP.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 108	Posted - 2014.03.25 21:05:00 - [13] - Quote Morihei Akachi wrote: CCP Falcon wrote: GÇª I have my own opinions on this too. It would be really interesting at some point to hear them. CCPGÇÖs policy at the moment is clearly not to intervene (otherwise it would have done a long time ago: this is by no means new behaviour on the part of E1), but it would be interesting to know how happy you guys are with that as a modus operandi, and whether you think that a change would be feasible/desirable. CCP could just be behind the times on this. After all they are trying to find exciting new things to do with their internet spaceship game. They are not quite so interested in looking for all the ways that sadists try to cause misery and pain (otherwise they would be in a different business). My hope is that they start thinking about ways to encourage good sportsmanship within the community. We could really use some.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 108	Posted - 2014.03.25 21:27:00 - [14] - Quote Mag's wrote: You do know CCP allows pilots to offer services for ISK, right? So again, please point to the RMT as I seem to have missed it. No rush, take your time. Lets look at the RMT clause of the EULA and find that lovely spot where services are allowed! Quote: B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. Oh wait, it never says services are allowed. You may be referring to a common practice of CCP allowing people to send isk to certain people for EVE related services. That is CCP choosing not to enforce their EULA in certain circumstances. So far they have not made a definitive ruling on humiliating singing being an acceptable service. It does make it clear that you cannot offer to transfer in game items. But that is too broad! Well obviously CCP has written it broadly so that they can ban people when they want to. The whole question of banning comes down to whether CCP wants to ban, not whether they can find part of the EULA to ban them with. For my part I will consider Erotica1 to be involved in offers (although probably not transfers) of in game items in trade for humiliating singing for his sick pleasure.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 108	Posted - 2014.03.25 21:33:00 - [15] - Quote Malcolm from Marketing wrote: baltec1 wrote: Malcolm from Marketing wrote: Sirinda wrote: I am appaled at what he's doing, but I also get Malcanis' point of view, if it is the one I think it is. Basically, you can't punish somebody who hasn't broken any rules, and doing so in spite of it would create a dangerous precedent. In that regard, CCP's hands are more or less tied unless they want to invoke their TOS' arbitrary savior clause. What a lot of people on the pages 1-5 are apparently forgetting is the fact CCP created those rules; there is no reason they couldn't adapt them to the situation. Failure to do so would border on criminal negligence, IMHO. Ive said it multiple times to multiple people in this thread. The Mittani + Fan fest. It happened, he broke no rules, yet he got a temp ban and was forced from his position. That was the right thing to do in that situation, its also my opinion that Erotica should have all his assets/isk removed and also receive a ban, but i have morals so i guess im in the minority. A member of BATs was recorded by nulli singing the theam tune to my little pony (badly). They attempted to use it to get us to kick him out of goons. We laughed at this as did our corp member. We have in the past told people who messed up in a fleet to sing on comms to make amends. We have gotten people to place plungers on their heads and apologise via a photo of them doing it for crimes they have committed. I guess you consider these bullying too? No, i consider those acts as punishment for being dumb in a fleet, it's in good taste and doesnt go too far and cross in to purposeful and prolonged bullying with the intent to inflict as much hurt and distress on that individual. Theres no malice involved in singing on comms to your corp mates to make up for never not shooting blues. Erotica got that guys assets/isk in that recording, but instead of kicking him and moving on, decided instead to prolong his humiliation for his own and his hangers on amusements. Theres a very clear difference, you know it too, but your choosing to play devils advocate. Singing on coms is part of EVE if the goal is an in game advantage (better fleets). Chewing someone out on coms is part of EVE if the goal is an in game advantage (better fleets). Humiliating someone on coms is part of EVE if the goal is an in game advantage (better fleets). Once you have all the stuff, their API, and IP address you have everything from them. It's time to show some good sportsmanship and not try to prolong the humiliation and pain for your amusement. Play EVE the internet spaceships game, not Teamspeak the creepy humiliation game.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.03.25 21:38:00 - [16] - Quote Mag's wrote: Kadl wrote: Mag's wrote: You do know CCP allows pilots to offer services for ISK, right? So again, please point to the RMT as I seem to have missed it. No rush, take your time. Lets look at the RMT clause of the EULA and find that lovely spot where services are allowed! Quote: B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions, newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game. Oh wait, it never says services are allowed. You may be referring to a common practice of CCP allowing people to send isk to certain people for EVE related services. That is CCP choosing not to enforce their EULA in certain circumstances. So far they have not made a definitive ruling on humiliating singing being an acceptable service. It does make it clear that you cannot offer to transfer in game items. But that is too broad! Well obviously CCP has written it broadly so that they can ban people when they want to. The whole question of banning comes down to whether CCP wants to ban, not whether they can find part of the EULA to ban them with. For my part I will consider Erotica1 to be involved in offers (although probably not transfers) of in game items in trade for humiliating singing for his sick pleasure. So any chance you could point me to the RMT in this instance. Like I said I can wait, no rush. Sorry, I am not playing your "I cannot see it game." I showed you the offer of in game items in return for services. If you childishly pretend to not see it then I am not going to continue to engage you.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.03.25 21:40:00 - [17] - Quote Ramona McCandless wrote: Kadl wrote: Play EVE the internet spaceships game, not Teamspeak the creepy humiliation game. I know, thats what Ventrilo is for for crying out loud! Good humor although I don't think I like the creepy humiliation game in either format. I guess if you want that sort of thing you can always give money to Erotica1!
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 110	Posted - 2014.03.25 22:22:00 - [18] - Quote Forum Clone 77777 wrote: Another message Im seeing in this thread, mostly by the defenders of the "victim", is that CCP should directly police what is being said on teamspeak. Thats what Im seeing, really? This is insane. Sometimes we see our fears even when they are not really there. That is not the argument being made by many of the people who found Erotica1's activities reprehensible. CCP needs to consider their game's reputation when dealing with scamming and harassment. Obviously CCP wants some of that as part of their dark sci-fi game, but if it gets too far beyond societal norms they may face real world backlash. Stigmatization of EVE players as sadistic antisocial freaks with deep psychological problems could reduce their potential for economic growth. For this reason CCP may wish to consider policies and actions (including possible bans) that move the community to a happy norm of "we will beat you black and blue in game but would love to have a drink with you when we are done." Note that Erotica1's actions were "I will beat you black and blue in the game then prolong the pain as much as I can just to see your humiliation and agony." So perhaps CCP must consider publicized teamspeak conversations because they will impact the bottom line and therefore the future of the company. That is a far cry from directly policing all teamspeak servers.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.03.25 22:35:00 - [19] - Quote Forum Clone 77777 wrote: They defend it on the grounds that "Its Erotica 1 and we dont like him" Yep, pretty solid defense right there. If it had been some unknown dude making that recording, Im willing to bet most of these people would have thought it was funny. I dont know if its because theyve been scammed themselves, theyre envious somehow.. Or something different, I mean real life celebrities also have people hating them "just because" right? So I guess that could be the case here aswell. You are making a strawman argument. I had a slightly positive attitude towards Erotica1 coming into this situation. He was a hardcore scammer and EVE needs those people. What I didn't know is that he would take things beyond the game and actively prolong someones humiliation and pain simply for his personal amusement. Beat someone up and take everything they have in game - OK. Continue beyond the game for a sick personal amusement - reprehensible.
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.03.25 22:37:00 - [20] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: i'm not defending ero at all, but people saying they'd take great joy in the very thing they're demonising him for [actually, something worse than what they're demonising him for] is very hypocritical of them. So are you willing to say anything against Erotica1's behavior in the audio?

Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.03.25 22:43:00 - [21] - Quote March rabbit wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Erotica 1 wrote: ---. Why do you do it? You already have their ISK and assets. Whats with the 2hr of out of game torment. with demeaning and humiliating tasks on the false promise they will have their ingame stuff returned to them? It is common theory that being bad in Eve Online is not a sign of being bad in RL. Now thanks to Ero1 this theory looks like beaten to death. Scamming in game -> humiliating in RL. Clear link between 2 behaviors. Good luck to all gankers, bumpers and other 'scum'.... I certainly hope that CCP does not end scamming, ganking, bumping, or even being 'scum' in game. I don't think that is the problem being highlighted here. I certainly hope that CCP does consider methods of improving sportsmanship within the community. Where is the good fight? "Good try dude, but you were scammed better luck next time."
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.03.25 22:48:00 - [22] - Quote Dave Stark wrote: Kadl wrote: Dave Stark wrote: i'm not defending ero at all, but people saying they'd take great joy in the very thing they're demonising him for [actually, something worse than what they're demonising him for] is very hypocritical of them. So are you willing to say anything against Erotica1's behavior in the audio? you mean the standard behaviour of erotica that has been happening for a long time, that nobody has given a **** about until ripard get started a witch hunt on his blog? sure i'll say something about it; it was far more acceptable than the racism and threats from the "victim". when it comes down to it, i'll gladly take erotica's [arguably over zealous] scamming, over that guy's racism and threats any day of the week. So you find it acceptable to actively attempt to humiliate people and cause them pain (outside of any games)?
Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 114	Posted - 2014.03.25 23:05:00 - [23] - Quote If this or any similar acts becomes a major news story CCP is going to have problems. The headline "Cyberbullying in EVE" will create unwanted attention. As a business, CCP should consider the situation and act so as to protect their profits and the game. Personally I would like to see more sportsmanship in EVE. I think that would be a good use of CCP's efforts.