For crews like yours, we have an arrangement with TSF whereby we can swap them for Caldari POWs before they go into Nation's vats for processing. Sleep well.

Wow.

I don't think I've ever completely lost respect for an entire organisation and every individual associated with it so quickly or nonchalantly before.

Wow.

I don't think I've ever completely lost respect for an entire organisation and every individual associated with it so quickly or nonchalantly before.

The people we rescue tend to think differently. And really, the penalty for Piracy is death anyway, isn't it?

I'm not smugly boasting about it, I'm just done trying to dance around the issue, Andreus.

Now you're acting like it was my decision.

For crews like yours, we have an arrangement with TSF whereby we can swap them for Caldari POWs before they go into Nation's vats for processing. Sleep well.

Not for your crews, if I find you though, Msr Achasse. Given your behaviour, I'm going to reclass you as a Pirate - and as such your crew will forfeit their rights and any privileges. For crews like yours, we have an arrangement with TSF whereby we can swap them for Caldari POWs before they go into Nation's vats for processing. Sleep well.

The people we rescue tend to think differently.

Pieter, step back. If you're even halfway as tired of trying to justify your actions to this kangaroo court as I am then it's simply better to concentrate on the things you can help change in the warzone.

None of these people know me, none of them have cared to try and yet I am judged and ostracized by some pervasive moral code that tells me how I should behave as a Patriot. You said it yourself, Pieter:



That is all we need.

The rest of you, weak willed lickspittles to the monster of public opinion; All you need to know is that Pyre Falcon do our duty to the State and it's people. We look after them. Feign insult and indignation if you must, after all your popularity in this circus is so important, but know that it will not stop us doing everything within our power to secure the safety of State citizen the cluster over. If that means we must make the hard decisions to deal with people your moral codes forbid you to, so be it.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what realistic propositions the rest of you have to return these people safe and unharmed from nation. Better yet, please tell us what you are actually doing to secure these people's futures.

Damn it, at least answer the op's topic after you rant! What do you fly?

But mostly, I just love duping the Caldari. Taking one of the States ships and turning it against the State is one of many things I LOOOOVE to do.

That is all we need.

The rest of you, weak willed lickspittles to the monster of public opinion; All you need to know is that Pyre Falcon do our duty to the State and it's people. We look after them. Feign insult and indignation if you must, after all your popularity in this circus is so important, but know that it will not stop us doing everything within our power to secure the safety of State citizen the cluster over. If that means we must make the hard decisions to deal with people your moral codes forbid you to, so be it.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear what realistic propositions the rest of you have to return these people safe and unharmed from nation. Better yet, please tell us what you are actually doing to secure these people's futures.

Wow.

I don't think I've ever completely lost respect for an entire organisation and every individual associated with it so quickly or nonchalantly before.

Why... WHY?...


BECAUSE CALDARI SUPERIORITY !!!

Now you're acting like it was my decision.

I guess people can only find out about things if they are thrust into one's face.

Speaking of thrusting, I like Gallante hulls myself. Something about their shape that just sends a shiver down my spine.

And as a friend of old once said: "Once you have a thorax in yer hanger, you wont ever take it out!"

~Hikari

I didn't know you could overheat a damage control module!

Please tell us all more about how Honoureable and Patriotic you folks are (while whining about Ishukone working with the Federation).

I guess people can only find out about things if they are thrust into one's face.

Before you start another piddling match, you better hope I-RED has never made a deal with TSF or Nation, Katrina.

You "resigned your commission"? Don't make me laugh. It's a bluff. Nothing's changed, Pieter. You still fly for them, you still sleep with them, you still drink with them and defend them. Apparently, you're proud of the TSF deal, since you decided to bring it up again as a boast and threat on page one.

You tried to tell me how much you hated the idea. You tried to tell me how against the whole concept you were. You tried to tell me this because you wanted to continue visiting my partner and daughter. I was wrong to believe you, I guess, since here you are a couple months later.

You're proud of it. You like it. You're enjoying working with TSF.

Just admit it.

You're damaged goods, Oniseki. How you ever made it through screening without them noticing your enormous psychological flaws is beyond me.

...Really my only complaint is that, for some reason, the Thorax-hull ships vibrate too much.

Tuulinen, it's interesting how you compare flying with and swapping prisoners with an organization with receiving a single piece of orbital infrastructure.

You know, we might be open to the idea of making similar trades with other groups as well assuming that it does not conflict with our previous arrangement with Pyre Falcon. Assuming any of you can swallow your smug attempts at moral superiority in order to understand that we CAN be dealt with on an honest basis.

...

Swallow your pride, Capsuleers, and start dealing with politics, because until such time as we make politics an anachronism, they're pretty much a fact of life.

Tuulinen, it's interesting how you compare flying with and swapping prisoners with an organization with receiving a single piece of orbital infrastructure. You're desperate to bring us down your level, it seems.

Interesting thing, that PYRE personnel stopped wearing State uniforms after being confronted about their collusion with a known enemy of humanity.

A good family in-fight among you Statists is almost as amusing to watch as when the slavers turn on each other. Please do carry on! My popcorn's almost ready and I have beer chilling.


P.S. I admire Pilot Oniseki's honesty and self awareness. You may disagree with what she says but you can't accuse of hypocrisy. I doubt she's as "broken" as she feels.

I know people who felt similarly over the Coelli debacle. I remember sending a message of sympathy and support.

For obvious reasons PFDC will not share information to the public it considers of importance to operational security by default. This really is none of your business, but since speculations are, as usual, running wild I've been authorized by the board to make the following clarification:

Elements picked up after contact with hostiles are subject to state laws and will be, whenever possible, handed over to the authorities or, protected by the same set of laws and upon deliberate approval, moved as penal labour workforce to a model facility in the Kingdom. Only elements not protected under state laws or waiting for their firing squad would be eligible for an exchange such as the one being condemned here.

PFDC continues to operate with the greater good of the caldari state and its subjects in its mind, which forms the solid basis for all decisions made in the past and future, and elements disagreeing are not going to change the course as public opinion is not and never will be the basis for decisions made.

Be it as it may you are all welcome to indulge yourselves in conjecture and condemn us some more - it will not change the fact that we're not afraid to get our hands dirty to achieve results.

-D.T

I am Amarr and fly Amarr.




Negotiating with Nation or Nation supporters would recognize them as a legitimate entities, therefore the only deals that can be had are at the end of a laser cannon. That is politics, the politics that very few capsuleers seem to understand. Diplomacy for the sake of diplomacy, compromise for the sake of compromise, business for the sake of business, peace for the sake of peace, these are not worthy pursuits. The Empire negotiating with the Republic and recognizing them as an independent government was a surrender, Ishukone negotiating with the Federation for half of Caldari Prime was a surrender, I-RED negotiating with or accepting a POCO from TSF for was a surrender, Pyre negotiating with TSF is a surrender. Upholding integrity, even when you must make sacrifices to do so, is a part of politics, and it is a part that too many neglect.

Anyone captured by Nation or Nation supporters is a casualty of war. Nation and its supporters need to be eradicated, not bartered with. They are not a legitimate nation; they are terrorists, and you do not negotiate with terrorists.

I normally tend to avoid threads that touch on Caldari politics. I could think of several metaphors as to how they come off, but in the end metaphors would be degrading, I suspect. Instead I will go with this more mild one: I am very sure that megacorporation "loyalists"; honor chasers hunting out medals from the state to pin to their breast pockets -- are proud of the little sand-castles they have built in their play areas, but the myopic vision of some of these children at recess are mistaking someone else's sand-castle quietly created as a challenge to their own, which instead was created with much fanfare, press releases, and negative smear campaigns against every other Capsuleer sandbox on the lot.

If you have something to prove; your loyalty, your duty, etcetera -- this is not the place to attempt to wave it like a flag. A straight statement is a straight statement. When others start screaming that a straight statement is a "brag", then their memory much be pathetically short or their skillbooks are over-writing the wrong cerebral centers, because surely, they have forgotten what actual bragging is.

If I state I have red hair, I am not bragging about having red hair, and to even a schoolyard child it would be obvious that anyone who claims that I am is simply showing their hatred of me in any way possible, using a fact I stated about myself as support to try and justify their vitriol.

There is a beauty and a release in becoming an infomorph. One of the first things that should have been released is hatred. I question the testing methods of other factions that allow such defects to pass through their Capsuleer systems.

I have to agree with the straight statement... But in the analogy of sand castles, perhaps if the majority of Pyre put in face time doing something other than kicking at everyone else's, people would have enough respect to hear them out without responding in kind. Personally, I'm not interested in castles or medals, but rather the precarious position of a dear friend caught between his sense of duty and decisions he had no real say in. I care not at all what happens to the rest.

I thought the point of this thread was to yell at Pyre for making deals with TS-F, not to whine about past sandcastles that have been knocked over?

I thought the point of this thread was to yell at Pyre for making deals with TS-F, not to whine about past sandcastles that have been knocked over?

Alright, let me get my PR hat on.

No one asked to keep this quiet. Our opinion on this matter should be pretty clear and has not changed - it also was offered to the offended party when this initially made the rounds in a direct conversation. We do not give a frakk about your opinions, hurt feelings or whacked over imaginary sandcastles. If you think all this acting outraged will change anything you're sadly mistaken, and this was the very same observation that was discussed internally when thinking about 'what if' scenarios. We do not act based on what will give us most points in the court of public opinion, but what we consider the right way to deal with difficult circumstances. You're free to disagree with the paths chosen, but it's our way and not yours, so gently frakk yourselves.
One can always rely on the cognitive dissonance inherent in the majority of people frequenting this esteeemed area of galnet to utterly miss the point, forget things within 12 hours and blabber away on utterly redundant train of thoughts that tend to dissociate more from reality with every sentence typed, as showcased by switching seamlessly from screaming bloody murder over perceived moral crimes against humanity to complaining about the past's hurt pride and back again, as if the only valuable thing in the world is not the just now guarded innocence of life, but also the sanctity of a wounded ego.


In case this was too long and you didn't want to read it, have it your way:
We do not give a frakk about what you think.

We do not act based on what will give us most points in the court of public opinion, but what we consider the right way to deal with difficult circumstances.

I don't have much I want to say about this, but I do have a few questions.

How reliable are these tests that you're performing on the rescued POW's? From my understanding, the right nano-bots can be very hard to detect and require extensive blood testing, which can take time.

And should you later find that those you exchanged were already compromised, what then? Seems to me that Nation has a lot more to gain from this deal than the State. They've established a clear line to serve you individuals you are happy to take back into the fold, despite their disposition.

Why would TSF be interested in such a deal? I doubt it's to build their credibility.

I must say that this is a pretty entertaining thread, though for all the wrong reasons. Some of the logic here is pretty disappointing.

-Eran

I am Amarr and fly Amarr.




Negotiating with Nation or Nation supporters would recognize them as legitimate entities, therefore the only deals that can be had are at the end of a laser cannon. That is politics, the politics that very few capsuleers seem to understand. Diplomacy for the sake of diplomacy, compromise for the sake of compromise, business for the sake of business, peace for the sake of peace, these are not worthy pursuits. The Empire negotiating with the Republic and recognizing them as an independent government was a surrender, Ishukone negotiating with the Federation for half of Caldari Prime was a surrender, I-RED negotiating with or accepting a POCO from TSF was a surrender, Pyre negotiating with TSF is a surrender. Upholding integrity, even when you must make sacrifices to do so, is a part of politics, and it is a part that too many neglect.

Anyone captured by Nation or Nation supporters is a casualty of war. Nation and its supporters need to be eradicated, not bartered with. They are not a legitimate nation; they are terrorists, and you do not negotiate with terrorists.

Well said.

With your statement in mind can you confirm then that PYRE's trade of 152 former employees, at least some of whom were Caldari, to a Nation-loyal corporation in October YC115 was the "right way to deal with difficult circumstances"? Nation is still regarded as an enemy by the State and the megacorp that PYRE professes loyalty to, is it not? Has PYRE formally cut its past political and corporate links?

And if you're up to explaining it, what exactly were the "difficult circumstances" which prevented you recommending these former employees to either a Protectorate or State loyal corporation as an alternative?

Batches of returnees were examined most thoroughly by Scherezad-haani for any trace of infection. What steps were taken in addition to these by the host corporations is unknown to me.

What I am certain of is that they are heroes who deserve another chance at life.

Once upon a time I would have offered to make a sample of returnees available for testing. Given the hyperbole and casual insults I am less than inclined to be cooperative in this matter.

What is bothering me, and has been leaking into several threads in the Intergalactic Summit like an oozing sore, is the malcontent of certain individuals that PYRE are doing things that are "not approved of" by the general community. This persecution, which it may surprise people to know is rather ineffectual to the corportaion who is the target of it, is getting tedious to watch.

Seems to me that Nation has a lot more to gain from this deal than the State. ... Why would TSF be interested in such a deal? I doubt it's to build their credibility.

Even assuming that the individuals exchanged with PYRE are 100% healthy and free of nano-bots and other controlling mechanisms (including non-invasive brainwashing), there are still some questions, like why? Why are they interested and what are their reasons?

Why would TSF be interested in such a deal? I doubt it's to build their credibility.
-Eran

"Don't call us terrorists, even though we work for the same terrorist organisation that's currently launching daily invasions of every area of civilized space, or we might act more like terrorists!"

Real compelling argument there.

You're at war because you chose to side with a terrorist organisation that's at war with humanity. You could have chosen not to, but you didn't.

In fact there are a lot of things you could have chosen not to do, but you did them anyway. It astounds me how bad at decision-making Sansha supporters tend to be.

You're at war because you chose to side with a terrorist organisation that's at war with humanity.

If you don't bend, then like brittle iron, you will break.

That's your point of view. From ours

The debate regarding prisoner exchanges with TSF should be in its own thread to broaden participation and open the discussion. The title of this thread doesn't lend itself so much to this discussion. Perhaps Pro and Anti Sansha can come up with a neutral yet descriptive thread title and continue the debate openly.

Batches of returnees were examined most thoroughly by Scherezad-haani for any trace of infection. What steps were taken in addition to these by the host corporations is unknown to me.

What I am certain of is that they are heroes who deserve another chance at life.

Criminals often find it hard to find respectable employment after being fired "with cause". The CERB no doubt took this into account, although I was not privy to their deliberations (thankfully - more than 30 straight hours).

The debate regarding prisoner exchanges with TSF should be in its own thread to broaden participation and open the discussion. The title of this thread doesn't lend itself so much to this discussion. Perhaps Pro and Anti Sansha can come up with a neutral yet descriptive thread title and continue the debate openly.

She's a very clever scientist, of course. But you've essentially utilised someone who at best sympathises with TS-F and at worst is tacitly influenced and controlled by them as your firewall.

What I am certain of is that they are heroes who deserve another chance at life.

Well then, I suppose we should all be reassured by your certainty.

Criminals now? Your statement on YC115-10-25 makes no mention of criminal charges being laid, merely that the 152 former employees you traded to TS-F had acted contrary to established corporate ethics and in a manner likely to cause a breach of the peace if left unchecked. Subsequently their employment was, as you said, terminated "with cause". All very routine.

I would add one more question directly: Are you still profiting from the trade of Caldari personnel into TS-F's 'care' as you did with your former employees on October 25th last year?

Scherezad was compromised by Nation-loyalists some time ago.

I've never seen any sign that Scherezad is pro-Nation. What she is, is uniquely sympathetic to those who have had their grey matter messed with.

For crews like yours, we have an arrangement with TSF whereby we can swap them for Caldari POWs before they go into Nation's vats for processing. Sleep well.

In a surprise move an un-named foreign Corporation operating out of Reynire system in Placid, offered generous employment contracts to the newly disenfranchised former employees. Arrangements have been made for transit out to Reynire system.

A foreign corporation offered them employment, they accepted and we shipped them to that corporation's homebase.

You are inferring who that batch of disassociated went to. You must understand that once they left our employ we really have little interest in them, legally. What I can say, personally, is that I have never profited from any deal with TS-F - save for having had competent wingman in a couple of patrols.

Lots of words here

Oh god, no.
No!

QUICK! Someone get me I-RED! I must inform them! They must be warned they have allowed a Nation-loyalist into their Alliance!

Oh god, no.
No!

QUICK! Someone get me I-RED! I must inform them! They must be warned they have allowed a Nation-loyalist into their Alliance!

The fact that Scherezad is part of an alliance does not rationally prove nor disprove where her individual sympathies and motives lie.

This comes from their POW's as well as other sources that are suitable enough for use in our purposes. We don't place as much importance on the specific source of our meat, after all, as most others do.

Out of interest Mr. Rundle, who would you choose to inspect the people coming back? I think you'd find it very hard to persuade someone that euthanization is not the only option on the table.

Ms. Roseburn, I don't need to choose anyone - I'm not intimately involved in the Nation biomass trade.

...Wait, seriously? Now, I've got no care at all what happens to, with, or around Pyre... But why the HELL are you people dragging Scherezad-haani into this? Wheres the proof that she's a "Nation Loyalist"?

Oh sure, any claim can be made as to her sympathies... And just as easily ignored. Proof, or get lost. There's a big difference between a running argument over dubious (whatever) dealings, and trying to pull perhaps the only pure humanitarian in New Eden into this crap flinging.

The Nation supporters are coming across as the rational ones, right about now.

For the record, Scherezad is considered compromised because she once sat at a table with us at a party. An I-Red party.

I think they are referring to that time she spent in your custody for a while, or something. I wasn't there for that.

I think they are referring to that time she spent in your custody for a while, or something. I wasn't there for that.

If you haven't realized this by now then you are starting to finally see where we're coming from.

Anyone who so much as mentions our name without spitting on the ground in front of them is accused of being a Nation loyalist. It's hilarious to us and it just proves us right.

Please, PLEASE prove us wrong. Show us that you are more rational than these threads (which are constant, by the way) show us you are.

For the record, Scherezad is considered compromised because she once sat at a table with us at a party. An I-Red party.

...Wait, seriously? Now, I've got no care at all what happens to, with, or around Pyre... But why the HELL are you people dragging Scherezad-haani into this? Wheres the proof that she's a "Nation Loyalist"?

Anyone who so much as mentions our name without spitting on the ground in front of them is accused of being a Nation loyalist. It's hilarious to us and it just proves us right.

]For the record, Scherezad is considered compromised because she once sat at a table with us at a party. An I-Red party.

Well, that about figures... As I've said, my sole interest is in the well being of one individual in this affair. Your dealings are your own. Pieter and I spoke about it, at length, and my opinion remains ambivalent towards the arrangement. You and I, Tiberious, have spoken civilly in the past, and while I have no desire to join Nation in any capacity, I don't bear you any particular ill will.

If I come across as confrontational, it's due to the simple fact that the closest to family I have is ground zero for this mess, a situation that will never sit well with me under any circumstances. I'd be uninvolved if that were not the case, as my own reasons for disliking the majority of Pyre are personal, established months and months ago, and unrelated to TS-F's activities in any way. I prefer just to avoid them and their antics when circumstances permit. It's easier that way.

All that said... Were it not for Schere, I'd likely be a low functioning autistic at best, permanently comatose at worst. Some idiot trying to pull her into this stupidity isn't happening unchallenged. Not because of some stigma, real or imagined, attached to TS-F... But because she doesn't deserve to be pulled into such an idiotic exchange, by anyone, without a DAMN good reason.

You do realize that is more damning of your recruitment process than a defense right?

"Might have been converted, we'll have them anyway".

It's certainly interesting to know that you're much looser in your moral objectivity when it comes to recruiting new employees.

Not saying that's anything damning, it's just an interesting change from your usual public stance towards Nation.

Maybe you don't understand me, or cannot read what I am typing:

I do not think she is compromised by Nation.

She's also not an employee. She's a subcontractor.

... but are still trying to make the point that you've done nothing wrong and couldn't have possibly have made a mistake

You have a very funny way of showing that you are on his side when you have spent several threads doing nothing but attacking his family, rather than supporting him.

I never said anything of the sort. I said I don't think she is compromised by Nation. That's my subjective opinion, not some hard fact I am trying to impress as objective. I'm not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand

Yes, the very brief period she spent in my ship after we, in combination with several others, rescued her from being kidnapped by the Angels.

I believe she was in my custody, in a stasis container manufactured by those same angels, for all of fifteen minutes before I passed her off to other medical authorities.

For the record, it takes more than fifteen minutes to do any form of subtle implantation. It would take longer because of Scherezad's unique brain structure.

Considering there have been other documented interactions between I-RED and TS-F that were mutually beneficial for both parties..

Last I checked, Sophia was not in the employ of the foundations. She's not mine to reign in.

Citation please.

Or did you mean the free POCO we didn't ask for and didn't want that you randomly gave us without any prior contact in a region we no longer operate in?

The Foundations is neither as bad as you are imagining, nor as virulent.

Well if this is just about trolling, I'm out.

You guys can't even talk about the ships you fly without this turning into some **** fest, ah?

Everyone loves a good scandal. Pietergate has been pretty entertaining so far.

You guys can't even talk about the ships you fly without this turning into some **** fest, ah?

Did you actually read the Original Post? This thread was nothing but sharkbait from the outset.

Did you actually read the Original Post? This thread was nothing but sharkbait from the outset.

We've never tried to dehumanize our opponents by casting them as subhuman monstrosities!

We've never tried to dehumanize our opponents by casting them as subhuman monstrosities!

I fly Amarr ships. I like the Coercer, because it has 8 Guns, thus can load 8 different Coloured crystals, for a Rainbow Effect.

I am also Greatly Confused by many Posts in this Thread.

Right, you dehumanize them by taking out their human parts.

Really?

Where do I click to learn more?

The people we rescue tend to think differently. And really, the penalty for Piracy is death anyway, isn't it?

Try it.

Try? Shooting pirates? I might have done that once or twice.

Pending an advantageous engagement scenario.

Thought so.

That I hadn't magically become a moron who can't count overnight? Congratulations.

Miss Shahni, I really have no clue what you were trying to say for most of your post so I'm only going to address the part that made sense to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're bothered by the fact that some individuals are upset with the way other individuals are doing business. If this is true, I have a hard time imagining how to put up with everything else that goes on in this world. This is the Summit, and if people don't want their dirty laundry aired or prefer not to read about others dirty laundry then they can simply not take part and ignore it. When someone does something controversial, there's going to be some who do not approve. It doesn't mean any one side is right or wrong, it's just the way it works when you address topics that people have strong feelings about.

As you did not understand what I was trying to say for 'most of my post', I will forgive you for missing the entire point of it and hyperfocusing on the very superficial obvious statements you made here. They are correct. They were not, however, the point I was making.

There are people who most certainly do understand what I was saying, however, and most, if not all of them, have been reading this dialogue, if not actively engaging in it.

As I have respect for you you based on things you have said over time, do not take this as an insult. It is possible that you are simply not informed enough on the entirety of what has been transpiring to make any sound judgement calls on the tip of this iceberg which has managed to breach the surface here on the Summit. This is not simply about people 'being upset'. That is only what you are able to see from what has been said here in public.

For crews like yours, we have an arrangement with TSF whereby we can swap them for Caldari POWs before they go into Nation's vats for processing. Sleep well.

However, I will not sit here and listen to you tell two-faced lies about us.

Didn't seem to bother you before, nothing but a bunch of '**** fit frigates,' right?

Well maybe you should stand up and do something about it.

Or has Anslo been whipping you so hard lately that your feet hurt?

I haven't actually seen Anslo in like.. 7 months.

The entire reason you have your band of miscreants consist of the general public rather than a consistent group is because you have a toxic personality and nobody can stand to be around you for any length of time.

Puffing your chest out toward Pieter in an attempt to get people to pay attention to you isn't going to make people like you either.

oh, I am Caldari, and I fly anything. Pieter how could you, etc.

Uh. What?

I just find it adorable how everyone in TSF have matching backgrounds in their portrait.

I have no idea what you're on about.

Verin of course misses the point entirely.

And Andreus foams at the mouth in a fantasy world devoid of interaction with reality.

Have I missed anything? Oh I would like to say, Anslo, I have to commend you on something. Unlike many people you are actually flying out and attempting to accomplish something. So good on you I suppose.

I have no idea what you're on about.

"desu kawaii"

desu what now???

desu what now???

Except... Nation are not trustworthy. I have known pretty much everybody in TS-F to tell direct lies about both Nation and their own corporation with a straight face and in the teeth of overwhelming facts. Kuvakei himself has zero regard for treaties and civilized agreements: He does only whatever is in his best interests, according to his own evaluation, without a second thought for integrity.

What guarantee do you have that the citizens you rescue haven't been through the vats already? We have recordings of live, on-air footage from a reporter who got an interview with Kuvakei himself only to be assimilated in minutes by a swarm of airborne nanites, the same technology being used in the YC112 "Upliftings" to march terrified human puppets into the holds of waiting transports

What guarantee can you honestly make with the rigour required of a trained security specialist, that you have not delivered men and women back to their relieved families carrying the seed of a Sansha sleeper cell? There will be enough of them riddling our society as it is. Arrangements such as this are cracks in our armour, loopholes in our security.

And on what basis are you convicting the crews you hand over to the vats of piracy? You know full well that most capsuleer crew sign on for a tour and spend months hard at work with their head down, earning a fortune to retire on and getting the hell out as soon as they can. Most don't even know the name of their pilot, what system they're in, what they're doing, what corp they fly for. Many more are slaves. Merely being aboard a pirate's ship is not indicative of being guilty of piracy, or even of being aware that piracy was going on.

Slave raids into empire space were - and are - a violation of the very terms of interstellar law and treaty that Kuvakei demands be respected in regard to the borders of his own promised land.

Try? Shooting pirates? I might have done that once or twice.

I'm interested to know how the liberals now see Pyre Falcon Defence and Security corporation, because of their treaty with TS-F. Standings wise, how do you now see them, terrible ,bad, neutral, good, excellent. Do you now regard them as criminals or terrorists yourselves, do you consider them to be kill on sight, due to the fact that they handover people they class, to be pirates to the TS-F.

Show us where we have ever broken a deal, Stitcher.

Because you can't.

Because we haven't.

On the other hand, you managed to successfully turn Alexylva Paradox from a promising group that harboured differing but similar goals, and softer methods, into a group that is Just Another Group of Capsuleers.

So congratulations, you have managed to do reverse alchemy and turn dross gold into brilliant lead. Congratulations.

I guess the reason Pyre treats its prisoners well is to clear their conscience of the terrible things they are about to do for them.

Gallenteans may not treat prisoners the best we should. But we're damn sure they will survive and one day will return home.

Regarding Sansha nation are classified as criminals throughout the Empires. Pyre Falcon are handing over people to Sansha nation. You do not believe that Pyre Falcon should also be classified as criminals or terrorists. I think that is your stance Stitcher. You disagree with their association with TS-F , but their handing over of people to the TS-F for the Sansha nation programming, does not classify their corporation to be considered illegal, criminal or terrorist organisation, as far as you are concerned.

Why are you imprisoning people who would ever return to normal? Why not find some better way to deal with minor transgressions.

As it stands, the people that Pyre give us are still alive. The people we give Pyre are still alive, when normal capsuleers would leave them to die and not give it a second thought.

It sounds to me like our deal is saving many more lives than not making a deal would do!

Let me remind you of that core: Your ultimate goal is to advance Nation. You don't necessarily NEED to break a deal in order to accomplish that if honouring that deal yields a sufficient profit. Whether or not you are obedient to the terms of the agreement, you aren't returning those prisoners out of the goodness of your twisted little clockwork hearts. You're getting something out of that prisoner transfer, there's an angle you're working, some gain that pays for the time and resources spent making the exchange, and which is obtuse enough to not arouse suspicion.

If you're going to prove me wrong on THAT one, then you need to do a lot better than trying to obfuscate it by challenging me on the unimportant outlying details. If I've been unfair with regards to your history of honouring (or not) your deals, then I apologise... But I've not been unfair in calling you liars.

Pyre might think we're nasty too, but they get their hands dirty and do what they think is best for their nation. Rather than shout loudly at a feed.

~Hikari

I don't get it.

You're accusing us of benefiting from a deal we made with another party? Of course we do. That is literally the point of making deals and agreements with others. Is so you are better off. Just because we are better off doesn't mean that Pyre or any other parties that have deals with us are worse off. We aren't proving you wrong because it's obvious.

Then why are the rest of your walking computers screaming so much instead of simply letting your actions speak?

Pot? Kettle. Etc.

Obvious indeed. So what IS it you're getting out of the arrangement?

We don't start these things. We don't make public announcements about our goings on or campaigns. We do let actions speak for us, but when others feel the need to call us out or spread misinformation then we'll correct them.

It's been stated a number of times in this thread and in rather plain terms.

~Hikari