Considering the problems of Kameira soldiers and units being openly available on capsuleer markets, becoming lost or disenfranchised from the Empire by capsuleer ineptitude and neglect, and the event of aforementioned individuals and units coming under the employ/unwilling control of parties/entities not of Imperial origin and/or hostile to the Empire, it falls under Praetorian responsibility to take efforts to secure authority over Kameiras that have been separated from their normal duties by capsuleer involvement and to return them to work befitting the nature of such servants of God and Empire. PIE representatives will identify groups of Kameiras that are inappropriately utilized by other capsuleers, negotiate (as appropriate) for their release to PIE jurisdiction, and induct them directly into the allianceGÇÖs ground forces. Considering alliance involvement in the CONCORD Emergency Militia War Powers Act Amarr/Minmatar warzone, Kameira units that fall under the PIE banner shall be utilized to secure Amarrian civilian settlements and assets within the warzone and ensure they are protected from the growing threat of clone and conventional ground forces employed by the Tribal Liberation Force, their contractors and their associates. This will be achieved by deploying set numbers of Kamieras to conflict zones in order to act as special op supplement forces to baseliner military forces and to provide additional training to such forces. PIE Kameira forces will also be tasked with providing/distributing material aid to affected civilian populations and to directly protect said populations when they come under attack.

// - Phase 1: Acquisition of Kameira Units

Amarrian agents often contract capsuleers to transport goods, equipment and personnel that are vital to the functioning of their respective corporations and the Empire at large. These contracts sometimes include the transportation of Kameiras to various postings around the cluster. Regrettably, not all capsuleers fulfill the contracts and will keep the Kameiras in effective limbo within their own hangars, or will 'sell' the rights to transport them (their original destinations long forgotten) to other capsuleers who have no business retaining ownership of them. As the Empire's preeminent independent loyalist capsuleer organization, it is PIE's solemn duty to re-secure these units of Kameiras, re-induct them to the Imperial fold and utilize them to the best effect for the good of Greater Amarria and her subjects. The re-securing phase of this task shall be accomplished by designating several of our members to cost-effectively purchase Kameiras found on the capsuleer markets either on contracts or the standard goods exchanges, request that capsuleers who have Kamieras in their possession to come forward and offer them to us as a donation or at a fair price, and by identifying capsuleer groups and individuals that inappropriately hold Kameiras for their own purposes and to negotiate for their release and/or pursue hostile action against them when appropriate and with the Admiralty's EXPRESS approval.

// - Phase 2: Induction of Kameira Units into the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Due to several complications and legal barriers concerning the interaction of CONCORD regulations and Imperial law, it is often impossible for Kameiras that have been caught up in the capsuleer markets to return to active duty at their original postings. Because of this, said units will have to fall into our own sovereignty as a capsuleer organization. New acquisitions must be medically and psychologically screened, inquisitioned for any potential heresies that may have arisen during their time away from the Empire, and then educated on the nature of their current legal status and a future within PIE. Should the Kameiras decline recruitment by PIE, as decided by their commanding officers, they shall be allowed to pursue whatever endeavor they wish so long as it does not indirectly or directly conflict with the Empire's interests. Should they accept, the Praetorian Oath shall be administered and they will fall under the normal rules associated with baseliner staff of PIE with special provisions that accommodate for the unique nature of Kameira fighting units.

// - Phase 3: Deployment of Kameira Units to the CEMWPA Warzone

PIE's primary concern as an organization for the past five years has been participating in the 24th Imperial Crusade. As this theatre of war is subject to intense fighting both in space and, more recently, upon the planets and installations within each system, there have been many egregious examples of civilian collateral damage and even direct assaults upon Imperial populaces by unscrupulous TLF commanders and the clone soldiers they employ. This is a state of affairs that cannot be allowed to stand, and with the induction of Kameira units into PIE comes the opportunity for the alliance to put these fighting men and women to a most righteous and noble task in protecting and aiding civilians caught in this most ignoble war. Kameiras are specialized forces that generally do not operate in massed battalions but instead act as support for larger, more standardized militaries. As such, PIE Kameiras will be deployed in small units across the breadth of the warzone EXCLUSIVELY where Imperial civilian populations are located. They will then be attached to the already present baseliner elements of the Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, Holder-held militaries, planetary defense forces, and, if necessary, civilian police forces and militias, that have already been tasked with the protection of Amarrian civilians. The Kameiras will act as force multipliers and trainers to these armed groups which are often under-manned and out-gunned by their attackers. When no active threat from enemy forces is present, the Kameira units will double as an aid organization, securing, transporting and distributing relief supplies to war-affected civilian populations that are suffering from the destruction and disruption of the normal infrastructure in the area.

Guess I should post here, before someone reports me to PIE for *Holding Kameira's against their will*

There's indeed Kameiras aboard the Arcology Project, but they are employed by high ranking Amarr. The majority of them are under employment of a renowned Amarr scientist noble who assists our research into the Oura M Syndrome.
The other Kameiras have been assigned as bodyguards for various high ranking Amarr aboard the Arcology Project, assuring their safety. Concerns of possible heresy should be none, as the Arcology Project houses an Amarr Preacher to satisfy their spiritual needs.

Guess I should post here, before someone reports me to PIE for *Holding Kameira's against their will*

There's indeed Kameiras aboard the Arcology Project, but they are employed by high ranking Amarr. The majority of them are under employment of a renowned Amarr scientist noble who assists our research into the Oura M Syndrome.
The other Kameiras have been assigned as bodyguards for various high ranking Amarr aboard the Arcology Project, assuring their safety. Concerns of possible heresy should be none, as the Arcology Project houses an Amarr Preacher to satisfy their spiritual needs.

This program is being presented in its entirety to the population of Kameiras that have come under our jurisdiction after the attempted exploitation of unscrupulous agents. Those who wish will assisted with all means to take advantage of this offer. It is not our intention to comment or concern ourselves with how we may be perceived in this matter but only to offer to those in our care an opportunity that they may wish to take of their own accord. As a matter of accountability, we will report our activity here should any transfers be made.

Kameiras are soldiers, not servants. They are good for one thing and one thing only: killing. They are good at killing people in wide range of techniques. There's spotting for artillery, long range sniping, medium range automatic fire, CQB, hand to hand; I'm sure you get the idea. They are not for bringing someone wine, peeling grapes, waving a fan, or any of that other bullshit that worthless Minmatar slaves should be used for.

I do not recall saying that they waved fans or did the work of servants. Anyone who is familiar with who I am knows they are used as military personnel and treated in the highest martial regard.

I do not find it appropriate to discuss my business in public. Nor is your tone, Kameira. If you wish to make your point, you would do well to remember your place. Your disrespecting a holder, especially on the IGS, does not seem to be in the traditions of PIE, unless they have stooped to coarse words and ignorant hostility regarding unfounded assumptions, as well as directly insulting my charges, which in turn is a direct insult to myself. If so I shall be greatly surprised.

However, I highly doubt that is the case. I shall assume this will not happen again, and will grant grace.

My offer to PIE still stands if they require reinforcements.

You're taking a lot of offense at a rather innocuous and bland statement, sir.

He's Amarr. It's in their blood to take offence and be tyrannical and such.

Your ignorance is astounding.

All Kameiras who have forsaken their oaths and refused service to Further Foodstuffs and other legal Amarrian corporations (as the Disciples of Ston/Molok have alleged) have not only forfeited their lives but stand utterly condemned before a holy and righteous God. Such traitorous Kameiras ought to suffer the most exemplary punishment imaginable GÇö to be blooded alive, one by one in front of their peers GÇö and the holoreel of their punishment must be played before all Kameiras everywhere so that they understand that God Himself commands their service to Further Foodstuffs (and the rest) and the punishment for those who derelict such duty is the punishment for those whom God has given over to destruction GÇö ritual blooding without mercy.

That the Empire does not do this is yet more evidence of its slide into liberalism. Amen. Amarr Victor.

So in other words, Kameiras who grow tired of killing for a zealous theocracy that views them in much the same regard as one might view a well trained slaverhound, can become freelance mercenaries, rejoin their ancestral people and live as free individuals within the Minmatar Republic, or if their conditioning allows, even set aside their violent pasts and enjoy a life of peace and prosperity within the Gallente Federation.

Such traitorous Kameiras ought to suffer the most exemplary punishment imaginable GÇö to be blooded alive, one by one in front of their peers

...

ritual blooding without mercy.

Is the letting of blood a prescribed punishment in traditional Amarrian culture, according to the scriptures? I did a smart search of my copy of the annotated Compact Scriptures (clearly I don't have access to the whole thing), and I found a lot of mention of bloodletting, but never as a deliberate punishment for transgression. Am I missing something in the interpretation, or is this in a more obscure portion of the body of work? Or is this heterodoxy?

I'm sorry for the questions, but I'm not sure whether I should be classifying Mr Nauplius as orthodox or Sani Sabik.

All Kameiras who have forsaken their oaths and refused service to Further Foodstuffs and other legal Amarrian corporations (as the Disciples of Ston/Molok have alleged) have not only forfeited their lives but stand utterly condemned before a holy and righteous God. Such traitorous Kameiras ought to suffer the most exemplary punishment imaginable GÇö to be blooded alive, one by one in front of their peers GÇö and the holoreel of their punishment must be played before all Kameiras everywhere so that they understand that God Himself commands their service to Further Foodstuffs (and the rest) and the punishment for those who derelict such duty is the punishment for those whom God has given over to destruction GÇö ritual blooding without mercy.

That the Empire does not do this is yet more evidence of its slide into liberalism. Amen. Amarr Victor.

So in other words, Kameiras who grow tired of killing for a zealous theocracy that views them in much the same regard as one might view a well trained slaverhound, can become freelance mercenaries, rejoin their ancestral people and live as free individuals within the Minmatar Republic, or if their conditioning allows, even set aside their violent pasts and enjoy a life of peace and prosperity within the Gallente Federation.

Once again the Amarr Empire shoots itself in the foot with it's own hardline zealotry, and once again the Federation stands ready to welcome those affected and offer a chance at a fresh start and a better life within a culturally diverse progressive society that is "the only true democracy in New Eden".

Is the letting of blood a prescribed punishment in traditional Amarrian culture, according to the scriptures? I did a smart search of my copy of the annotated Compact Scriptures (clearly I don't have access to the whole thing), and I found a lot of mention of bloodletting, but never as a deliberate punishment for transgression. Am I missing something in the interpretation, or is this in a more obscure portion of the body of work? Or is this heterodoxy?

I'm sorry for the questions, but I'm not sure whether I should be classifying Mr Nauplius as orthodox or Sani Sabik.

As for your 'democracy,' the Holy Amarr Empire was exploring space while the Gallente were flinging fecal matter at each other and using grunts to communicate.

Yes, bulky antiquated ship designs and the need to borrow weapon systems from other factions then retrofit them onto your existing fleets to remain competitive reflects that.

So in other words....

Yes, bulky antiquated ship designs and the need to borrow weapon systems from other factions then retrofit them onto your existing fleets to remain competitive reflects that.

Why would you need more soldiers. Your alliance does have a corporation that is dictated strictly towards Dusters. A single one of them can take down full platoons of mortals?

It seems repetitive, there is also the Kameira Lodge a Duster corp owned by the Amarr Empire.

I guess if you have something use it?

Because if you want something obliterated you use clones in powered armour.

If you want territory held you use regular troops. If you want a minimum of discipline issues you use elite formations like Kameiras or Vaklear.

Is that supposed to be an insult? It looks like you're praising Kameiras to me.

Congratulations, you have just summarized Minmater ship design in one sentence.

God demands blood sacrifice to wash away your sins and prove yourselves worthy of a new Reclaiming.

Re-asking,

ALL Kameiras?

Re-asking,

ALL Kameiras?

It sounds like you are asking if they should be dead or alive.

You are calling upon *ALL* pilots to deliver their Kameiras to PIE.

According to my information Captain Fierach still has a sizeable personal guard with does not seem to be accounted for in the PIE Initial Group.

Guys!

Guys!!

I am totally going to kidnap a shitload of Amarrians, hold them hostage and subject them to maltreatment for a few hundred years, indoctrinate them, brainwash them, and then convince them to fight for me. Oh, right! I will probably subject them to dodgy medical research and genetic modifications too!

You'll all help me and congratulate me right? Coooools!

Yay! This is fun!

Reclaiming the poor heathens is what we must do!

Guys!

Guys!!

I am totally going to kidnap a shitload of Amarrians, hold them hostage and subject them to maltreatment for a few hundred years, indoctrinate them, brainwash them, and then convince them to fight for me. Oh, right! I will probably subject them to dodgy medical research and genetic modifications too!

You'll all help me and congratulate me right? Coooools!

Yay! This is fun!

Reclaiming the poor heathens is what we must do!

I'm sure years upon years of indoctrination have had zero effect on you whatsoever, Diana. You'd be fighting for the Gallente if you had been born on that side of the border.

Don't underestimate what a life of being told selective pieces of information can do to people. It is a extremely effective form of enslavement.

Diana you are the most indoctrinated person around. If this is a genetic element, you would without a doubt be just as full of zeal for a different empire or group had you been exposed early enough.

This isn't a slight against you. You back up what you say and do your job. The reasons you do said job however are shallow.

You know, the good thing about you being entirely clueless about how nation works sort of clears you of any suspicion to you being a part of them. You really have no idea.

Your ignorance to the fact that literally 95% of people you come into contact with see you as a indoctrinated annoyance is just funny to me, and I have zero agenda behind me merely letting you know about that. So, just letting you know of your current social status. And before you delve into mine? I'm aware of it. I just don't care because I have better things to do.

But you're not remarkable in the fact that you blow up a lot of nation vessels. You would be hard pressed to find a non nation capsuleer who hasn't taken down at least 10 of them.

Your contribution is mediocre at best, and not noteworthy.

You know, the good thing about you being entirely clueless about how nation works sort of clears you of any suspicion to you being a part of them. You really have no idea.

Your ignorance to the fact that literally 95% of people you come into contact with see you as a indoctrinated annoyance is just funny to me, and I have zero agenda behind me merely letting you know about that.

So, just letting you know of your current social status. And before you delve into mine? I'm aware of it. I just don't care because I have better things to do.

But you're not remarkable in the fact that you blow up a lot of nation vessels. You would be hard pressed to find a non nation capsuleer who hasn't taken down at least 10 of them.

Your contribution is mediocre at best, and not noteworthy.

And people ask me why we've chosen a 24th contract over continueing the one with 'ex-Provist and assorted madmen'- riddled STPRO.

"which group of irrational racist zealots would you rather hang out with?"

Strikes me that the only correct answer to that question is "neither".

Are you suggesting that the STPRO and 24th don't contain any irrational and racist zealots?

But you're not remarkable in the fact that you blow up a lot of nation vessels. You would be hard pressed to find a non nation capsuleer who hasn't taken down at least 10 of them.

Your contribution is mediocre at best, and not noteworthy.

For the purposes of deciding what not to include in a selection of cheeses, they might as well be. That's beside the point.

The point is that of course both militias DO contain their share of irrational racist zealots, as do the FDU and TLF. And given that Desiderya's implication was that you transferred from the STPRO to the 24th so as to get away from the, quote: "ex-Provists and assorted madmen", my point was that this approach is rather like swapping beer for wine. Different though those two drinks may be, they'll both still give you a hangover.

although that's maybe not a toxic enough analogy. Let's compare... hmm... strychnine and a ball of enriched uranium. Wildly different though they may be, prolonged contact with either one is not a good idea.

If your objective is to escape the company of madmen, then seeking the company of different madmen does not accomplish that objective.

in my opinion, calling the entirety of the 24IC, irrational, racist, zealots constitutes what I consider to be no less prejudiced, stereotypical, or a generalization as much as something like, say, Diana Kim would say.

Just ten peoples like me clear Sansha vanguards without any losses, and about 40 peoples like me can remove whole Sansha incursion from constellation.

...Please, keep this thread on topic.

That'd be a first for the IGS.

Your opinion would be an entirely valid criticism if I had in fact thus accused the entire 24IC.

Are you suggesting that the STPRO and 24th don't contain any irrational and racist zealots?

The point is that of course both militias DO contain their share of irrational racist zealots, as do the FDU and TLF.

It is so interesting that Caldari can become so passionate against the Sansha while being an ally of the amarr. You are in bed with a slaver throwing rocks at another slaver. In the final analysis they both seek to enslave the entire cluster.

It is no secret, they say it directly, only idiots pretend it is not a threat. The time will come when they come to enslave all the Caldari.

You will have no support, look to our past, it is your future!

We may not be perfect, but we are not you, at least. When you can feed your own people, educate them and tend to their wounds then you can come back here and lecture us.

You disappoint me.

I find it interesting that the Sansha still have incursions into Caldari space, when if you were to believe some posting here they would prefer death to being enslaved.

We may not be perfect, but we are not you, at least. When you can feed your own people, educate them and tend to their wounds then you can come back here and lecture us.

Caldari space has people that want for food, education and medicine. But, conveniently, Caldari society doesn't view them as people so I suppose that's fine for you.

However, getting back to the point you are responding to. Rightly or wrongly the State feels threatened by the Federation. So it makes common cause with an empire that views all of humanity as it's rightful subjects. On the face of it this does seem odd. But then again politics of any kind rarely seems to make much sense.

That said. However deeply indoctrinated an imperial is they can be persuaded to believe otherwise given the right circumstances. Once Nation has rewired your brain you are lost for good. This is why I would, personally, cheerfully defend Imperials against Sansha. They are undoubtedly the lesser of the two evils.

Likewise, slaves can be rescued, blood drained husks can't. That makes decisions about the relative merits of the Blooders and orthodox Amarrians simple enough.

We may not be perfect, but we are not you, at least. When you can feed your own people, educate them and tend to their wounds then you can come back here and lecture us.

You disappoint me.

Perhaps we should speak of the forklift driver that managed to overthrow your whole government and make it his. The seemingly regular thefts of capital ships from Navy facilities. The fact that a loyal officer one day is executed another to preserve your concepts of 'State.' Perhaps we should look at a pre-Heth State for how to treat our people. Or maybe to when you were just earning your freedom from the Gallenteans for how to balance a budget between the military and civilian? Maybe we should remember destroying freighter loads of protesters when it comes to tending wounds. Or the indoctrination of Diana Kim when it comes to education.

Like Avlynkaa I once thought better of you. Lately you seem as eager to throw unfounded propaganda bullshit at the Republic to save face in public as Diana Kim is. Think whatever you want about Matar Ronin's opinions, but throwing blind stones out of context, Barbed and loaded words slanted purposefully, un-researched and unfounded propaganda at the Republic because he struck a nerve is not how you solve it.

We earned our freedom, liberated our space and rebuilt our homeworld under the Amarr, the largest, oldest and most powerful of all the empires. And still we grow stronger. Who owns your homeworld hmm?

You have your conflict with the Gallenteans to attend to, your state to protect.
What you do not have, is any place to judge us from, you have not had to fight like we have.

God forbid you ever had to make the decision to protect your people from slavers or feed them.
Because then you would know what it is like to have to chose.

Or maybe you should just not speak on that you have no understanding of at all.

You can only call someone out so far before you get reminded of your own failings. If you expect no judgement, encourage your brethren to return the favor, or get used to being let down by the universe when you start in on someone about decisions made well above his pay grade.

Out of anyone, Surionen, you in particular know better when it comes to this. Or, at least, you damn well should after that mess at Colelie, and all the **** you took from a decision that wasn't yours. So don't sit there and act like Pieter did anything but get tired of your boy's bull****. It's people like him that push 'us first' so ******* hard, that it shoves away anyone who might just have helped your sorry ***** otherwise.

Now, you go ahead and be disappointed as much as you like. Maker knows it doesn't mean much when all you do is look for reasons to be.

You can only call someone out so far before you get reminded of your own failings. If you expect no judgement, encourage your brethren to return the favor, or get used to being let down by the universe when you start in on someone about decisions made well above his pay grade.

Out of anyone, Surionen, you in particular know better when it comes to this. Or, at least, you damn well should after that mess at Colelie, and all the **** you took from a decision that wasn't yours. So don't sit there and act like Pieter did anything but get tired of your boy's bull****. It's people like him that push 'us first' so ******* hard, that it shoves away anyone who might just have helped your sorry asses otherwise.

Now, you go ahead and be disappointed as much as you like. Maker knows it doesn't mean much when all you do is look for reasons to be.

TL/DR:

It is his fault for saying mean things! That is why we throw out bullshit statements offensive to an entire people! If he had not have pointed our obvious hypocrisies then pieter would have never stooped so low!

If it was not for Matar Ronin pointing out our faults then of course we would treat the Matari with the respect they deserve and help them!

Since you can't read, let me help...

Don't like being judged, stop trying to. That simple enough for you?

Please take derailing arguments to PMs or threads more dedicated to those subjects.

Haven't you heard, that Sansha lift peoples and make them into slaves by replacing their brains (partly) with schematics?

And your affection to concept of slavery is unhealthy. Make sure to check in to medbay.

What kind of strawman arguments are going on in here? Who claimed the Caldari were, by virtue of our indomitable will, immune to the effects of psychology, pharmacology or cybernetics?

Pretty sure they're taking Diana Kim seriously or at least pretends to when it's useful to build strawmen. Which of course speaks volumes as to their honesty in such discussions. On the other hand, there's no need to respond in kind, Pieter. They are very well aware of their failings and we have no need to point them out, even if they have some deep-seated urge to elevate themselves by trying to demean others.

Our accomplishments and our own flaws belong firmly to us, there is no need to respond to childish hyperbole. Save your efforts for the more reasonable ones, who debate in earnest and with honesty.

even if they have some deep-seated urge to elevate themselves by trying to demean others.

Our accomplishments and our own flaws belong firmly to us, there is no need to respond to childish hyperbole. Save your efforts for the more reasonable ones, who debate in earnest and with honesty.

We may not be perfect, but we are not you, at least. When you can feed your own people, educate them and tend to their wounds then you can come back here and lecture us.

you forget that the only difference between what was done to you and what was done to us was that we faced arguably a stronger foe and we did so in a weaker position.
Don't act like we have no idea what hardship is.

I take it most Caldari distance themselves from the nonsense that emits from Diana Kim. I will not bite on that rotten bait anymore in the future.

I will never pretend to be able to "shut someone down" on the bloody IGS. If you want to actually do it, come find us in space. Otherwise, keep bleating and posing. It suits you.

23155 GÇö 23248
THE CALDARI-GALLENTE WAR
Inhabiting two planets in the same solar system, the Caldari and Gallente peoples established contact with one another as soon as space technology was developed by the more advanced Gallente. When the Gallente formed their federation with other races they had encountered, such as the Intaki and Mannar, it seemed natural to them that the Caldari should join also.

While the Caldari acquiesced in this, the fiercely independent nature of their corporations led them to establish secret bases and colonies in several star systems. The discovery of these bases was the spark that eventually led to the Caldari-Gallente War. A bitter conflict, the war leads to the expulsion of the Caldari from their home planet and the formation of the Caldari State as a fully-independent corporate empire.

23236
NEW EDEN STANDARD TIME (YC 0)

CALDARI-GALLENTE WAR ENDS (YC 12)
Reduced to sporadic border skirmishes, and with peace talks under way for some years, the long war between the Caldari State and the Gallente Federation finally ends. The Federation fully recognizes the State as a sovereign entity but Caldari Prime remains under Gallente control. For their part, the Caldari State corporations retain control over all their original colonies and bases. As a peace settlement, the agreement was not fully satisfactory to either party and relations between the Federation and State were to remain frosty at best. The status of Caldari Prime, in particular, remained controversial for many Caldari nationalists.

93 years

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente-Caldari_War
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Early_Days_(Chronicle)
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Breakout_(Chronicle)
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_War_Drones_On_(Chronicle)

22355 GÇö 22480
THE AMARR-MINMATAR CONFLICT
The Amarr Empire, driven by its religion to GÇ£ReclaimGÇ¥ the stars and all living around them, expands rapidly and eventually comes into contact with the much smaller Minmatar Empire. The Amarr easily subdue the Minmatar in an attack known as GÇ£The Day of DarknessGÇ¥ and take many thousands of slaves.

The Amarr continue their slave raids for many decades until finally escalating their attacks into an all-out war of conquest. In the end, the Minmatar Empire is no more and the entire Minmatar race enters a period of subjugation and slavery under the rule of the Amarr Empire.

23216
THE GREAT REBELLION
The Amarr Empire, perceiving the Jove as an insidious threat but apparently militarily weak, launch an attempted invasion of the Jove Empire. This attack is swiftly halted in its tracks by the total defeat of the Amarr invasion force by a Jovian mothership at the Battle of VakGÇÖAtioth. The unprecedented and devastating defeat of their fleet throws the Amarr Empire into turmoil and the Minmatar rebel movement seize the moment to strike.

The Great Rebellion results in the expulsion of the Amarr from the Minmatar homeworld and surrounding regions. It is the single greatest loss of territory in the history of the Amarr Empire. The Minmatar Republic is formed and swiftly recognized by the Gallente Federation. The Amarr, in no state to fight a war on multiple fronts, accept reality and concentrate on defending their borders and establishing the Ammatar Mandate, a client state of Minmatar subjects that remain loyal to the Empire.

861 years

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Day_of_Darkness
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Day_of_Darkness_(Chronicle)

Shut the **** up.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what happens when you try to do something nice for the cluster.

One should know that a slaver's version of "nice" is them reducing your daily beating by one blow.

... that chemically cause dependence and addiction. The drug addiction and slave collars they use work on all humans, your state citizens are not exempt.

Undisputed facts versus IGS opinion. ...... The winner and still champion is undisputed Facts!!!

Pieter, when you run to the aid of a countryman without knowing the origin of the conflict you might be a patriot, but you might also end up being very, very wrong. Scroll back and read before you come out with guns blazing. A slaver is a slaver. Spin it if it makes you able to sleep at night, but the truth is inescapable. In my humble opinion the Caldari deserve a better ally, and I am concerned that our past is prologue for your future. Do not trust the slaver cult!

If it means anything, I support Aldrith's program.
Not all of service to the Empire is taking slaves and burning worlds. They do good and a Kameira's place is among them.

I would go into his service would I not have been a capsuleer.

None whatsoever.

I do not support the enslavement of my people under any circumstances and will see them free by any means. even peaceful ones believe it or not. Though I do not hold hope that will happen.

But we Kameiras are not like Matari. It is not who we were meant to be or become.

It is often I wish I had not become a capsuleer, that I could return to something as simple as guarding colony worlds from attack.
Every one of us should have that chance. Not just Kameiras but slaves too. The Mandate is not an evil thing and neither are the Matari who choose to not live in the republic, we will change them as much as they have changed us in the end.

The only time I ever felt conflicted about what I was doing was when I flew under you.

Mmmmh. Somebody clearly doesn't want to admit that the Federation Navy at the time we fought them was arguably stronger than the Amarrian Navy at the time the Republic fought them. I say arguably because the Federation doesn't have the same tonnage as the Amarrian Navy but is absolutely superior in terms of technology and training. Of course the Amarrian Navy is still superior in sheer tonnage to the Federation Navy today, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone claiming they were comparable in strength.

As for who was in a weaker position - well we had one planet and some deep range outpost colonies. The Republic had, what was it, seven long-settled worlds? You can argue that the Caldari were more militaristic in spirit than the Matari, but that's ignoring the fact that we didn't have many dedicated military vessels larger than frigates.

Yes. Our most famous ship in that battle WAS a converted water carrier. Tovil-Toba's flagship, no less.

Now, here's the thing. You might think I dislike the Matari - except I'm on the record supporting them. I've repeatedly said that I strongly wish they hadn't allied against us with the Gallente. I've repeatedly said that I think they make a better ideological partner for us than the Empire, with it's thinly-veiled desire to gobble up our systems and crap out our culture, replacing it with their own.

I sincerely believe we could teach each other a great deal - but that all goes out the window when one of them attacks us. Because that's what I was doing, responding to an attack of precisely the type I've been accused of making.

I have nothing at all negative to say about the Amarrian religion and have not.

The people who use it to control others however.

And I do not need to be placated to, very far from it. But I will not bend my spine like a willow in the wind to accomplish my goals.

Shakor

Who?

Maleatu Shakor, brutor, tribal, minmatar and leader of his... Republic.
Enemy of the State.

Where did I state you had anything negative to say about the Amarrian religion? I am seeking clarification on your contradicting stance where, on the one had you express your desire to have remained a Kameiras while on the other a staunch opposition towards the Imperial system of slavery. Now, an Amarrian Holder might tell me if this is not the case, but the Kameiras training is not delivered to a free citizen, it is delivered to slaves, and specifically Minmatar slaves. Now this would nominally mean that you were a former slave as a Kameiras. As such when you state an opposition to slavery and then a desire to be a Kameiras then that is essentially equivalent to: "I oppose slavery but given the opportunity I would accept enslavement."

Where then is the connexion between an abolitionist and anti-establishment stance as far as the Empire is concerned and the Kameiras programs that are functional only under a system of religious slavery and the involvement of the feudal-military establishment of the Amarr Empire?

Kameiras are not slaves.

Ave Summit. I was actually planning on posting an update when the troops were ready to deploy in about a week or more, but now would be a good time as well.

For the past month the Kameiras turned over to us have undergone screening and are now in the process of receiving supplementary training for their new assignments. Kameiras almost never work in close proximity to civilians and it is necessary to acclimate them to their duties as a defensive response force within civilian sectors of the various contested Amarrian districts in the warzone. Their primary objectives will be to secure and evacuate civilian populations in the event of an attack, with the secondary objectives of preventing damage to civilian assets and inflicting casualties upon raiding forces.

Additionally, they are being given extensive training on how to combat clone mercenary forces, which are vastly different in doctrine and tactics than conventional ground forces. Once this is done they will be dispatched to various locations which will remain classified for operational security.

Thus far we have gathered 5,750 Kameira soldiers. It is estimated that a battalion of 700 soldiers will be needed to effectively secure a single planetary district. This means that we have enough troops to secure approximately eight districts in the warzone, with 150 soldiers held in initial reserve. The length of this first deployment will be two months so that we may gauge the effectiveness of their efforts and procure data relating to casualty rates and attrition in the field.

I hope this clears up a few things. Also, we are still accepting troops into the program, and we ask that if any of you do come across any Kameira units that you offer them the option to join our ranks. The Praetoria extend their deepest gratitude to those who have already done so.

Saints watch over us,

Aldrith Shutaq
Fleet Captain
PIE Inc.

I am not a slaver, I have never laid a hand upon a slave, and my definition of 'nice' in the context of the thread you have chosen to usurp is to attempt to protect the innocent from an unceasing war and the predations of the psychopaths that participate in it.

Rail all you want about the existence of Kameiras and the wrongfulness of the institutions that created them. The facts are as they stand, however: they are soldiers, they find profound purpose in fighting for the Empire, and they do not do well in many other contexts. Not only that, but despite what many Amarrian commanders do with them, this particular program has them fighting for an undeniable good, with much less risk to their own lives than their normal front-line duties. I'd say everyone wins here, be they the capsuleers who contribute troops to this program, the civilians caught in the warzone, or the Kameiras themselves.

Now, if you wanted to make good of a rather messy situation, what would you do? I'd love to see some better ideas.

Mr. Shutaq, I'm pleased that your program is working well. I hope that you see this conversation in a more positive light, too! It's a little rocky, but it's certainly calling attention to your work. Is there some way a humble Caldari contractor can help?

Ah, so it's a voluntary program these days open to free citizens of the Empire? What's the age of enlistment set at by the way and are there also Amarrian, Khanid, and Ni-Kunni, Kameiras now?

You are never content with the simple answer.

Just because we are born into it does not make it slavery, Holders are born to their stations.

You are never content with the simple answer.

Just because we are born into it does not make it slavery, Holders are born to their stations.

Yes, and so are Syrikos Hounds born a Syrikos Hound. A fate they perhaps share with the Kameiras is that without a master to provide them guidance they are liable to bark howling mad at the moon as much as chase their own tail in confusion.

And in the Empire, many slaves are born into their slavery. This somehow makes them... not slaves, apparently.

So it is not answers you want but to weakly attempt to once again throw a barbed remark or statement with the intent of ...what? Hurting feelings? Disenfranchising or harming reputation in some way?

No doubt you will follow up with how you were just idly commenting and meant nothing by it.
Or maybe, you will get to the point already.

You used the word faith so I assumed your objections were religious in nature. i.e. that slavery is a logical outcome of the Amarrian faith, which it is not.

Are you aware that while all Rifters are Frigates not all Frigates are Rifters?

You will have to try much, much, harder to twist meaning into my words.

I already got to the point dear, but I fear while your Kameiras training might have taught you much it failed to inculcate adequate reading comprehension. What you appear to see as a barbed remarks are nothing of the sort for I spare them only for opponents I would consider of intelligence or importance - and in which I consider you having failed both criteria. No barbs but rather what I would say was rather blatant derision. Deserved I would say if only when having read the following:
Because discussion based solely on assumption and not what is said is worthy only of flippant disregard.

Now that said, my curiosity as to the correlations with former Kameiras and their appearing in the Republic has already been satiated by another party with knowledge on the matter. I suppose it really was as simple as it being either those rejected from the program or those with so little Faith in the Empire, so your value has expired.

As for an interest in disenfranchising or harming your reputation in some way, I really wouldn't have much interest since you appear to be more than competent in that regard already.

You're doing that thing again where you say something which bears no relation to the point being made and then act like you've won.

I knew you were going for option three.
And Veik, you know that slaves cannot read.

And Veik, you know that slaves cannot read.

You are doing that thing where you jump in others conversations and declare how right you are about something.

Nonsense. Many are quite literate.

I imagine this makes life for the vast number of Sebiestor slaves employed as scribes and clerks in the Amarrian Civil Service even more difficult than it already is.

If it was a private conversation, you'd be having it in a private comms channel. The IGS' status as a public discussion forum means that it's not "others' conversation" it's merely a conversation in which I have not yet ventured an opinion.

In any case, it's not about my being right, it's about your being intellectually dishonest. I see bullsh**, I call bullshi**. Harden the frak up.

So you agree that by nature of being born into the position that all Kameiras are slaves?

I have to admit that has always been my assumption. But If you believe otherwise I'm happy to read what you feel their status is.

What I do understand them to be is fanatically loyal to the armed forces of the Empire. So I am a little surprised to know of at least three who are now capsuleers. And who don't fly in service of the Amarr.

I'm sure all of you have your reasons. It just does mean you'll be rather rare specimens.

Makes me wonder how many ex Vaklear capsuleers are out there.

So you agree that by nature of being born into the position that all Kameiras are slaves?

I agree that all Kameiras are slaves: the factors that make them slaves involve more than simply having been born to it.

The definition of "Slave" is not "Inherited a job."

Please take derailing arguments to PMs or threads more dedicated to those subjects.

Also, messing with enemy communications is a fine old information warfare tradition. Last I checked the PIEmen were still the enemy of free Minmatar.

Sure, except that it's the Caldari in this thread that are being the loudest about things.

Kameiras and tube borns are not the same subject. Get it together people.

Sure, except that it's the Caldari in this thread that are being the loudest about things.

Kameiras and tube borns are not the same subject. Get it together people.

You're not my supervisor.

Sure, except that it's the Caldari in this thread that are being the loudest about things.

Kameiras and tube borns are not the same subject. Get it together people.

Yes that is a bit odd isn't it?

I'm curious as to how, exactly, you are retraining elite shock troops for policing and garrison duties. Usually such troopers develop severe discipline issues if removed from the opportunity to be in harms way on a regular basis.

Or so I have been led to understand.

Still if it means Kamerias end up better socialised for mixing with civilians then it can't be a bad thing I suppose.

Personally I've always wondered at some of the stereotypes that surround the progeny of the Tube Child program. That they all grow up to become cold, distant, emotionless types prone to violent sociopathic behaviour or ambitious and cynical scheming. As a tube child myself I can often feel offended, since I don't see myself as any of those things at all.

Personally I've always wondered at some of the stereotypes that surround the progeny of the Tube Child program. That they all grow up to become cold, distant, emotionless types prone to violent sociopathic behaviour or ambitious and cynical scheming. As a tube child myself I can often feel offended, since I don't see myself as any of those things at all.

That's part of the problem with sociopaths, they never see themselves as one.

This is a legitimate concern. Using shock troops in a garrison capacity is a great way to wind up with revolts in the streets, a pile of civilian bodies and severely morale-impaired shock troops.

PIE representatives will identify groups of Kameiras that are inappropriately utilized by other capsuleers, negotiate (as appropriate) for their release to PIE jurisdiction, and induct them directly into the allianceGÇÖs ground forces.
Considering alliance involvement in the CONCORD Emergency Militia War Powers Act Amarr/Minmatar warzone, Kameira units that fall under the PIE banner shall be utilized to secure Amarrian civilian settlements and assets within the warzone and ensure they are protected from the growing threat of clone and conventional ground forces employed by the Tribal Liberation Force, their contractors and their associates.
This will be achieved by deploying set numbers of Kamieras to conflict zones in order to act as special op supplement forces to baseliner military forces and to provide additional training to such forces. PIE Kameira forces will also be tasked with providing/distributing material aid to affected civilian populations and to directly protect said populations when they come under attack.