"meanwhile cloaking renders a pilot completely untraceable except for the fact that you can see in local that they are indeed in system. Local is indeed a form of intel however as to its supposed "OverPowered" presence as little evidence as it only gives the nmes of people in system and NOTHING MORE. "


Lol. your a cloaky who likes to troll cloak posts, ive seen you in about every post and you have failed to contribute legitimate contributions. If i wanted local to be gone id live in a WH and maybe you should if you dont like it.

No one in wormhole space ever feels that cloaking is abused....EVER. Also, lots of cloakies die in wormhole. They aren't the invulnerable ships people make them out to be. With no local, we have no idea they are even there until they decloak. Then we kill them. It's not a broken mechanic at all. No cynos, no fixed "gates", limited mass on wormholes, etc...All of those things limit the force projection in wormhole space, which is the real problem you are talking about.

In null sec, people claim that a cloaky can stop an entire system from doing sites, mining, and other various pve activities. Is that because of the cloak or because existing null sec mechanics allow it? (cynos, no mass limited entrances into system, etc..) Those issues simply don't exist for us in wormhole space and we have the same cloaking mechanic that you do.

There is a clear (uh oh dare i say it) imbalance with cloaking.

Before this gets locked because i know it will and i realise this will most likely have litte effect id like CCP to note that the same people post on these cloaking posts and turn them into flame wars which in turn gets them locked which would appear to me as an atempt to limit ideas presented in the forum to manipulate the likelyhood of continuation of the imbalance, because they enjoy the current abuse of the mechanic.

Bane: while i like the fact that WH is fun for some people i and many other players would prefer not to have to be forced to do it in order to avoid broken mechanics. what you presented was how WH space is less voulerable to cloaks not how it ruins WH space.


Derath: you fail to give any real evidence for leaving it the way it is. i feel confident in the evidence i have presented.Thank you so much for your contribution. anything else?

You shouldnt. so i suggest you talk about why my ideas are flawed specificly but rather you've shown not to put forth the effort.
and should you not wish to do so do not post reply to this post anyfurther because id like you to stay on topic.

Derath: you fail to give any real evidence for leaving it the way it is. i feel confident in the evidence i have presented.Thank you so much for your contribution. anything else?

You shouldnt. so i suggest you talk about why my ideas are flawed specificly but rather you've shown not to put forth the effort.
and should you not wish to do so do not post reply to this post anyfurther because id like you to stay on topic.

anyone else have any ideas? im still interested. you could also propose to have a special ship designed around the idea of finding cloaked ships using propes or sensors.

#1 Pos decloak modules: ...

#2 Cloak probes:...

#3 the dreaded cloaking Fuel: ...

#4 AFK Timers: ...

No one in wormhole space ever feels that cloaking is abused....EVER. Also, lots of cloakies die in wormhole. They aren't the invulnerable ships people make them out to be. With no local, we have no idea they are even there until they decloak. Then we kill them. It's not a broken mechanic at all. No cynos, no fixed "gates", limited mass on wormholes, etc...All of those things limit the force projection in wormhole space, which is the real problem you are talking about.

In null sec, people claim that a cloaky can stop an entire system from doing sites, mining, and other various pve activities. Is that because of the cloak or because existing null sec mechanics allow it? (cynos, no mass limited entrances into system, etc..) Those issues simply don't exist for us in wormhole space and we have the same cloaking mechanic that you do.

Cloaks should be huntable. No ship in space should be so safe as to be able to literally afk for an entire day with any kind of certainty of not exploding, especially in enemy territory. That is just goofy and clearly broken.

I know right? The ability to suddenly see who comes into your system, giving you time(as said person loads in) to warp off to a safe spot, to a pos, or to a station to dock up and literally afk for the entire day with any kind of certainty of not exploding.... Oh wait, you are talking about cloak not local. Sorry about that.

Funny troll. You and your kind hunt the wrong prey. There are tons of people just like you spoiling for a fight, vo shoot one of them. Wait, sorry... Forgot they might actually be armed and capable of providing risk back to you. Cant have that.

Seriously.. docked or in a POS shield is supposed to be safe. You are actually safer cloaked than in a POS, which is just special.

The key is in space. No one in space, never mind in enemy territory, is supposed to be so safe as to literally afk from server up until server down. Cloaks are broke.

And you are saying, that the ability to see when ever someone comes into a system and instantly hides away isn't broken? You have a funny standard mate.

Lets not forget the process of getting TO said enemy system is hardly safe at all... Think of it as a consequence for owning a system that you can't defend.

I'm sorry but the whole BS about Cynos in 0.0 and the lack thereof in WH space is a strawman at best.

Cyno's become largely a necessity in 0.0 again "because of local". One ship entering local may raise eyebrows. But 12 will make you run. The Cyno allows for the balance of local as the spike occurs on top of the target.

The lack of cyno's in WH space is a non issue. Why? Because without local it is very easy to sneak that same fleet in covertly as the target doesn't see a local spike.

In the end, whether that overwhelming force is hotdropped on top of you, or suddenly decloaks on top of you from out of nowhere, the result is the same.

I'm sorry but the whole BS about Cynos in 0.0 and the lack thereof in WH space is a strawman at best.

Cyno's become largely a necessity in 0.0 again "because of local". One ship entering local may raise eyebrows. But 12 will make you run. The Cyno allows for the balance of local as the spike occurs on top of the target.

The lack of cyno's in WH space is a non issue. Why? Because without local it is very easy to sneak that same fleet in covertly as the target doesn't see a local spike.

In the end, whether that overwhelming force is hotdropped on top of you, or suddenly decloaks on top of you from out of nowhere, the result is the same.

other than the use of pinning down defenceless corps for literally months and draining them financially

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Local is the same everywhere, yet only a 'problem' where the efforts of a whole alliance make it useful.

]Local is the same everywhere, yet only a 'problem' where the efforts of a whole alliance make it useful.

Isn't this entire thread based on a strawman argument? So basically, you are basing a Straw man, on a straw man argument...

Oh my god. I think we all need a definition of what a Straw man is.



Your entire argument attempting to fight my position, was a straw man, by calling my position a straw man, and introducing elements to the discussion that is not apart of the discussion.

Second: You, and a number of others continue to out right IGNORE sections of my arguments in attempts to strengthen their's. This of course makes your argument weak as you fail to address my points.

Third: You just brought down your entire argument by posting this.



Local, is not the same everywhere, the fact that there are sections of space, wormhole space, but still space, which is accessible by EVERYONE makes your entire argument invalid due to the fact that once again, you create miss information, thus further weakening your argument in the eyes that know that local is not the same everywhere.

Then you perform a Cherry picking fallacy that you just pick certain cases as your bases for claiming something is over powered and unbalanced, yet you don't provide any information, or proof. Infact, I have yet to see anyone provide factual data to PROVE THE CLOAK IS OP.

Here some quick guide lines you can follow to help yourself discover if it really over powered.

First, of all those that cloak and sit in a system, how many of those actually perform hot drops?
Second, how many cloaking ships are destroyed in low and null sec space.
Third, how many hot drops are successful, vs how many fizzle and the target got away/counter hot dropped.
Fourth: How many cloaking vessels got a kill(s) with a hot drop vs how many non-cloaking vessels got a kill(s) with hot drops
Fifth, how many cloak able vessels get kills without hotdrop vs how many cloak-able vessels get kills without hot dropping.

On and on another base of that quote:



Base on that, lets turn around for you. Cloak is the same everywhere(which isn't a lie, and true, cloak does exactly the same thing, everywhere) yet only a "problem" where the efforts of wa whole alliance/corp makes it useful.

So... The existance of wormholes, which have a plethora of other rules differences from the other areas besides just how local functions, and is in fact a special case in nearly every aspect, somehow invalidates the fact that local is only overpowered when the concetrated and continuous efforts of a large amount of players works to make it useful? Will it make you feel better if I accept your rebuke and amend my argument to say that local is the same in all of K-space, but somehow only becomes a 'problem' where the efforts of alliance sized groups of players lays out the effort and manpower to secure that space?

I think cloaks are OP because of any ship in open space they are the only one safe from player interaction of any kind. You are literally safer cloaked in space than you are inside a POS Shield, because at least they can be bumped out, or stolen outright by traitors if unpiloted. Even then, I feel cloaks are only a little too powerful. They should be as huntable as anything else in open space, even if it requires special modules, skills or even hulls to be effective at it. Even then they are only slightly op.

The real issue comes when they are combined with a standard cyno. A cyno ship that can be hunted is fine. A cloak is mostly fine. An immune to aggression until it attacks titan fleet is not fine.

What? u think u should be able to make money unmolested in the most dangerous space in the game? Ur not even allowed to make money in the safest regions of space unmolested, read my signature, its from the EVE FAQ. Welcome to EVE.

And again, you are using a straw man argument.... We are now going in circles......

Not really. You, and most other cloak advocates who worship at the alter of OP local, ignore the fact that local isnt even useful without tons of people cooperating to make it so. Your actual complaint is that group efforts directed to a single goal is effective in ways you dont like.

Ignoring that is why these threads circle. No one can give an answer why an alliance dedicated to securing space should not be able to do so, at least nominally.

High Sec has Concord. Players should be able to do better because they can be proactive.

Im glad this blossomed while I was out. some people more enlightened to the subject showed up on both sides.

though I dont think a consensus will be reached because to agree (in some minds) is to admit defeat, regardless if progress is made. nerfing local in my opinion is just making cloakers jobs easier at something they already dont need help with

Not really. You, and most other cloak advocates who worship at the alter of OP local, ignore the fact that local isnt even useful without tons of people cooperating to make it so. Your actual complaint is that group efforts directed to a single goal is effective in ways you dont like.

Ignoring that is why these threads circle. No one can give an answer why an alliance dedicated to securing space should not be able to do so, at least nominally.

High Sec has Concord. Players should be able to do better because they can be proactive.

Do....you even play Eve online?

I suggested that their be a fuel system put in place please in very specific detail and in your own words tell me why this isn't viable.

i suggested that a difficulty acquired pos module be available with its own limitations set in place. please in specific detail debunk this.

probes were another suggestion which didnt get alot of hate flash and i understand the point that one might have with not being able to target once locateing the general area but may i infer that there is little point in knowing the general location if i cant do anything once i know this information (even that info isnt op let alone local chat)

the debate at this point isn't weather cloaking is unbalanced I don't need to explain that at this point and any further rebuttal otherwise shows lack of support against any rebalance.

1) I cant tell if you are afk or not and therefor have to assume the worst at all times or i am an idiot and thus have to hide

2) when hiding i cant make any isk and thus causes economic harm (and if the market can be considered a form of "pvp" this is equally legitimate) some even ask for ransom but as you pay one off another is soon to appear, go figure.

3) I cannot detect a cloaked pilots whereabouts AT ALL. which is completely unrealistic and extremely overpowered due to the fact i cant harm you if i don't know where you are, and the previous explanations already given.

#1 Pos decloak modules: an expensive hard to train for module that sends a pulse that renders all ships unblockable for 5-15 min which can either be activated once every hour manually or just do this pulse on a regular hourly interval (CCP can figure out the details)

I believe a healthy combination of these things would insure that cloaking mechanics/cov ops/black ops would be maintained but also make sure that other game mechanics are not only added but preserved and not dominated by the aggressive PVPer who's upset because his space just got taken over (BooHoo ; __ ; Pasta)

3: The last and probably most controversial element the Anti Cloaking pulse, this should be short range maybe 10km or less and should require a charge, that can only be fired once a minute. This can be used easily enough on WHs and Stargates to prevent a scout entering a system. Possible thing to consider so it isn't considered too "Overpowered" there could be range activation restrictions like smart bombs so a pilot cant just sit on the WH or stargate spamming them every time someone jumps in.

You are saying that local isn't even useful without tons of people cooperating, yet it only takes one person not afk to see when someone enters a system....

No. We don't want anything remotely like this in wormhole space. We like not knowing what is on a wormhole. Plus, the amount of covert ops ships that die in wormhole space is already very high. It doesn't need to be any easier.

It didnt get to be useful for that until the space was secured. It didnt get secured like that until the combined efforts of hundreds of players began camping gates and hunting down intruders. Local works exactly the same way in high sec, yet ganks happen all the time. You cant ignore all that effort in maintaining the system just because you want to solo hunt.

Mike, I know you can do better than comparing high sec ganking to the discussion here.

No. We don't want anything remotely like this in wormhole space. We like not knowing what is on a wormhole. Plus, the amount of covert ops ships that die in wormhole space is already very high. It doesn't need to be any easier.

It's a nice attempt to start a civilized discussion on a topic and I commend you for that, and reassure that some comments aimed at the OP are not necessary.

Despite saying that however I do agree that this is a moot issue, it's been done again and again, all with the same reoccurring themes; the same solutions, the same counter-arguments and the same opinions on said debates, but never a absolute agreement. To me it sound unfair that individuals continually demand that a mechanic be changed, when the majority of players agree that there isn't a problem, or that the problem lies with something else...

I'm not saying that people should stop advocating for change, but they should concede that there are some aspects that wont comply with their opinion, and that they just have to adapt around it.

The "majority" that you speak of is the same people that disagree with changing cloaks and the mechanics surrounding its uses in every thread. It's just the same people re-posting what they put in all the other change-cloaking threads. I would be willing to bet that there are more threads regarding this issue than there are people saying it's not broken....

Cloaking is broken. It allows force projection that has no way of being countered... You can't do anything to a cloaked person and they know it... They have all the time in the world to find the right opportunity and there is no way to protect against or counter that.

It is very disheartening that CCP has allowed this to go on without ANY changes or attempts to balance this broken area of the game.

Something needs to be done about it... Change cloaks, change cynos, limit BLOPS jump ranges to one or two ly.... something. Because this is simply stupid that one person is able to represent a entire fleet at any moment in a entire region... that is broken as ****.

Here you are, suggesting that players in an MMO should play together, by specifically trying to NOT play together.

I am suggesting we remove the obstacle to play, that being the lack of fighting capability present in the ships which are inspired to run from others.

You are suggesting ways that they could more effectively never see another player.

I do not believe this is wise for an MMO.

So I take it that you believe that someone with a bunch of alts sitting cloaked AFK in a bunch of systems is "playing". No, they are doing nothing but ruining this game.... Put a AFK timer in if you want people to actually "play" the game...

So I take it that you believe that someone with a bunch of alts sitting cloaked AFK in a bunch of systems is "playing". No, they are doing nothing but ruining this game.... Put a AFK timer in if you want people to actually "play" the game...

So I take it that you believe that someone with a bunch of alts sitting cloaked AFK in a bunch of systems is "playing". No, they are doing nothing but ruining this game.... Put a AFK timer in if you want people to actually "play" the game...

except the issue everyone has is when the player is not afk.

it doesnt matter to them if the player is afk or if hes at his keyboard warping back and forth and gathering intel. either way they feel unsafe. the problem is not ppl who are afk, it never was. ppl just try to use the 'afk is bad' as an argument to get what they want.

the issue is that the cloaker can sit undetectable whilst playing a meta game, or in prep to drop a fleet. being afk or not has nothing to do with it.

But he is detected. Local is reporting that he there, so he not undetected. Sure, he can't be found, but you can do that without cloak. For example, did you know that there are still a few (very few mind you) speed fits out there that allow you to go just fast enough, that by the time a probber has you scanned down and warping to you, you are already off grid, are you going to complain about those as well?

Did you also know that while that cloaker is playing a meta game, or prepping a hot drop fleet, you can be doing the same thing? You could be baiting, and or performing the log off trick.

People make it sound like they are defenseless creatures that can't even rub two brain cells together to get a proper counter or bait running.

That isn't strictly true, I imagine those who own the WH you are entering might be of a different opinion, cant have it always, plus I doubt all WHs will be covered 24/7 so you should be ok

yes i know all these things.

and when the method of this form of attack is moved to inties, the 'problem' will still not be whether the intruder is afk or not.

it will still lie with: the nature of instant free intel, the feeling of entitlement to that intel and the advanced warning it provides, the threat of cyno's, and the ease of getting those cyno's into range before anything can be realistically done about it.


edit- let me just make it clear, there are counters to the actual damage a cloaker can do no doubt, i know that too. im simply emphasizing why this is even a discussion at all, or that the reason that this is a discussion is not anything to do with AFK players.

Cloaking is broken. It allows force projection that has no way of being countered... You can't do anything to a cloaked person and they know it... They have all the time in the world to find the right opportunity and there is no way to protect against or counter that.

I completely agree. The problem stems from a desire to reap the rewards of more dangerous areas of EVE without the risk. This is the reason the colloquial phrases "carebear" and "nullbear" are used. Which describe players that reject risk of loss as a gameplay mechanic of EVE.
If you remove/alter cloaking the discussion will simply shift to another mechanic and then another and another until the game is as bland and static as highsec or some other less sustainable MMO titles.

I completely agree. The problem stems from a desire to reap the rewards of more dangerous areas of EVE without the risk. This is the reason the colloquial phrases "carebear" and "nullbear" are used. Which describe players that reject risk of loss as a gameplay mechanic of EVE.
If you remove/alter cloaking the discussion will simply shift to another mechanic and then another and another until the game is as bland and static as highsec or some other less sustainable MMO titles.

and lose nothing from evading.

What the nerf cloaking crowd needs to do is start a thread on cyno mass limits. That seems to be the actual issue for you guys

I believe the only change to a cyno that is needed, is to expose the system to risk in exchange for convenience.

By that, I mean have a spool up where no ships can travel, but it is highly visible on local grid. No beacon would appear on the overview until the spool up completes, so ships able to travel happens when the beacon appears.
Have this last anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute.

The result, is a cyno can be used very much like it currently is, with the exception that if you do it on grid to another player they can see it and have time to react.

In the version where PvE ships are as formidable as their stealthed opponents, I expect this should allow the PvE ship enough time to chop up the cyno boat into small pieces, and serve it as stir fry.

My basic premise is that fights should happen between PvE and stealthed craft, which means the PvE must have a reasonable expectation that they can win, IF they make the effort.

My two cents

If a RL stealth bomber flies by right next to me, I'll still SEE it. Why not make the shimmer effect viewable by any player on grid? I can barely see my own ship on my screen when it's cloaked. Why not let a determined player visually find a cloaked ship that way? No probes needed, no POS mods, just let everyone see my ship cloaked the same way I do.

Also means that if I'm trying to gather intel, I'm at risk (risk vs. reward). If I'm just afk, then odds are highly in favor of no one randomly landing at my safe spot grid, or picking me out of the stars in a trillion cubic meters of virtual space

Ced

Wouldn't this result in an inability to drop fleets on each other? Much more so in TiDi when people will have even MORE time to react? I agree that force projection needs to be changed, but I'm not convinced doing it on they cyno end is a good idea. IMO jumping mechanics themselves need to be changed...a ship jumping to a cyno shouldn't just teleport there, it should actually have a degree of travel time based on the distance. But that would probably require a complete rewrite of jump code and I'm not sure it's even possible given the fact that different systems are on different nodes .

On the contrary, they are losing time they could spend ratting. hence these threads. To the null bear, evading is inadequate.

Dragoon..... im sorry, you are the worst troll ive ever seen, please for the life of you post something you havent posted before. a reward? really thats your excuse? my suggestions leave those aspects in tacked.

Danika. please leave its clear you dont want to be apart of the conversation.

I have made my case now give me something real i can see logic in. is there noone out there with a legitimate thesis against the balancing of cloaking? are there none amung us.

The afk is fine. The cloak that makes you so safe you are assured to still be in space when you come back despite the combined efforts of active players to the contrary is not.

Confident is fine--- it should be difficult to find you, enough for you to afk as a calculated risk for a given time period. Absolutely safe? Safer than sitting in a POS? Even with people actively hunting? That is broken.

The consequence of capturing space, guarding and securing it is that it becomes safe. Your industry should profit from those efforts.

Cloaks are broken because any ship in open space should be huntable. Docked or in a POS isnt in open space, yet a cloaked ship is safer than one in a POS.

Cloaks do not balance local. Local is balanced on its own, only player effort makes it powerful, both in proactively clearing systems of hostiles and in getting clear so that the combat wings can do that.

What are u even saying? What guarding and securing? u show me an alliance that actively guards and secures its space and ill show u an alliance that has no troubles with cloakers and is quite capable of countering cyno's.

That argument only works if you accept local is broken. It isnt.

As has been discussed, even if it was removed this moment, it would have to be replaced with at least a system that gave an accurate count of ships in system.

isnt the only reason cloakys are feared in 0.0 sapce that the could use a cyno and hotdrop you
i dont fear a little cloaky but the fleet behind them in wh space cloakys arent that much of a thread
since they cant light a cyno and hotdrop you

most people in this post dont understand the huge difference betwen wh and 0.0 space
the cloaky in itself isnt broken the ability to light a cyno is broken

No one is immune to the broken effects of a cloak. There are ways to mitigate it, but that does not stop it crom being a broken mechanic. Its just not as bad as those screaming about afk campers want to claim.

Cloaks do not balance local. Local is balanced on its own, only player effort makes it powerful, both in proactively clearing systems of hostiles and in getting clear so that the combat wings can do that.

There is no effort in seeing one person jumping in local and warping to safety.

no one is immune to the broken effects of local. there are ways to mitigate it (afk cloaking), but that does not stop it from being a broken mechanic.

I need to stop what you are saying there.

I dispute your conclusion, quoted above.
I do not believe that an accurate count of ships in a system should ever be a certainty.

I believe that a degree of doubt, and uncertainty, should dominate all considerations regarding intel, as this should be an opposed effort under many scenarios.

I feel the very expectation that you should casually be aware of another pilot's presence, even if you could not define it beyond being aware another was present, is too much to expect.

There should always be the expectation that someone may have gone beyond your ability to detect, and is lurking either beyond your sensor's range or even the hardware's ability to detect at all.

I do not believe intel should be a freely available commodity. I believe it needs to be earned, and with that earning should always come the doubt that maybe someone paid a higher price than you, just so you would not know they were present.

I feel you can hedge your bets, but always remember you are gambling.

clearing space and camping gates is effort well spent at preventing fleets get into ur space, but quite clearly they are insufficient for preventing infiltrators, much like in RL.

to prevent infiltration and raids u actively protect ur systems behind ur own lines. groups that do that suffer much less from cloakers. it makes complete sense.

u seem to be trying to suggest that because u have claimed territory it should be immune to infiltration and raids.



which goes to show u dnt know what ur talking about. afk cloaking is deliberately employed as a counter to local. it exploits the LACK of efforts your enemy takes in protecting its own space

So the hundreds of manhours spent clearing the space and camping the gates to keep it clear should be worthless?


Not every iota of effort bent to a task need be your personal effort. This is called cooperative play, or group effort.

You wind up with 2 possibilities here.

First, the only ships capable of escaping detection are rare, expensive and inoffensive. So long as entire ship lines are created that rely on evasion for defense then they must have the capability to actually rely on that defense. That pilot doing everything properly should be assured that he can indeed evade, or else that ship and any like it are useless.

Second, all consequences to losing your ship are removed from the game. If choices are to be meaningful, there must be a chance for success. So long as ships are required to evade or die with no realistic middle ground, evasion must remain not only viable, but probable---just short of outright assured.

No one signs up to play prey. Bears don't owe you kills for the privilege of playing your PvP game.

Not at all. However, counter infiltration needs to have a chance at success. Currently it does not, because of broken cloaks. I don't hold the belief that they should not be effective at infiltration and hunting, just that they be as subject to counter tactics as everyone else.

No one signs up to play prey. Bears don't owe you kills for the privilege of playing your PvP game.

i dont think that the local is a counter to cloaks the only thing the local provides is the info he is here
a counter would a way to find a cloaked vessel and if you find him destroy him

the info in itself is useless if you want to kill a cloaked vessel
you can bait him but if he has a brain he would not attack unless he knows he wins
on the other side the 0.0 bears have the constant fear of a hotdrop or a entire fleet behind the cloaky

since they have always the worst case in mind its a game and the cloaky has always the edge

It boils down to this:

You want cloaks to change, be it a direct nerf or a way to find them? Then local needs to be a part of that change.

Any change, will of course need to take WH dwellers into account.

Its sad becuase CCP wont and havent done anything for years and are tired of people wanting a rebalance.

Bane: please be more specific as to how it hurts WH space. you have my attention. although my suggestions are only ideas and im sure others can come up with better ideas

Wow this is still going.

Just out of curiousity (too hard to search without the right filter options but i figured someone who cares enough would have a bookmark) but has a Dev EVER replied in one of these threads, one way or another?

To me, all cloaks need are a much larger cap cost, about 1 point shy of unprobable, and to be made mutually exclusive with regular Cynos.

If you had to fit rigs, a few Cap rechargers, and some power diagnostics and shield power relays to keep one active constantly it would still be able to fulfill it's purpose of gathering intel. If it does not fit a regular cyno, then it's threat is unknown, but at least quantifiable enough to warrant it's power. If it had that kind of cap draw then it would not need it's other disadvantages. Most ships would not be able to keep one active all the time, and those that can would either be cheap intel ships or cov-ops.

they called it a 'thorny' problem. i have the impression they dnt want to tinker with cloaks without tinkering with local at the sametime and vice versa. hence leaving it as it is for so long. not sure if they consider cyno's part of the same issue.

also there was a point where they were interested in hearing capsuleer ideas on an intel system that could replace local as an intel system. i dnt know if they are still wanting capsuleers to brain storm on that.

Just out of curiosity, if cloaked ships were unable to fit cynos, would that make it better for you Mike?

so afk cloaking is still possible with cap mods, but the active use of cloaking and hunting is further nerfed.
its doesnt fix the 'broken' use of cloaking, and it breaks a perfectly fine use of cloaking.

so afk cloaking is still possible with cap mods, but the active use of cloaking and hunting is further nerfed.
its doesnt fix the 'broken' use of cloaking, and it breaks a perfectly fine use of cloaking.

Not that I am opposed to hearsay, but actual dev posts would be nice. I wish there was a way to search just for dev post in a particular thread topic (maybe there is and i just suck).

Without the cyno though, they are effectively useless in null, so why would it matter if they were out in space being undetectable? They are totally undetectable in wormhole space (no active local), and it doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything. That alone shows the issue is the cyno, not the cloak.

AND IF YOU COULD MANAGE TO PRESENT A LEGIT ARGUMENT THAT WOULD ALSO BE APPRECIATED AS WOULD READING THE ENTIRE POST BEFORE RESPONDING.