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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:42:00 -
[1]
Change it to constellation, simple.
Carebears can still see pirates incoming, they just dont know whether theyre in the star system with them or two jumps out.
Pirates can still see carebears mining, they just dont know whether theyre in the star system with them or two jumps out.
So whats the point you wonder? Well if you see a pirate in 'local' youre not sure if hes actually in system, so the channel works as an advanced warning but without a scout youre not gonna be sure where he/she actually is. So youre still warned but its not 100% accurate, since for all you know the guy is 3 jumps away.
If you see a carebear in 'local' that means hes somewhere nearby, youll still have to scout various star systems to actually find him though. So while the system works as advanced scouting system for your prey it can also benefit the hunter as your prey will not know whether youre actually in system with him or simply 3 jumps out, this will most likely make him take the risk of coming back out.
Flame away ^_^
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Chode Rizoum
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:43:00 -
[2]
that whould be nice
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:44:00 -
[3]
Im not sure if im missing something, but wouldnt it just be a big timesink trying to find people?
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The Eve Wiki Project |
Paxam Leratharn
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:44:00 -
[4]
There's allready a "constellation" channel, for those who wish to join it. It's not mandatory though.
And local's fine how it is.
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:47:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Jim McGregor
Im not sure if im missing something, but wouldnt it just be a big timesink trying to find people?
It should be as I'd suspect the people you want to find doesn't want you to.
Great idea, keeping the chatroom but making it fuzzy.
Remind me about The Maze.
I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message. |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:49:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/05/2006 13:51:20
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Im not sure if im missing something, but wouldnt it just be a big timesink trying to find people?
It should be as I'd suspect the people you want to find doesn't want you to.
Great idea, keeping the chatroom but making it fuzzy.
So basicly the idea is to make it harder for pirates/killers to find targets?
What specific problems would this change address? Because i only see it as adding more difficulty finding specific players, or more difficult avoiding specific pirates.
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The Eve Wiki Project |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Im not sure if im missing something, but wouldnt it just be a big timesink trying to find people?
It should be as I'd suspect the people you want to find doesn't want you to.
Great idea, keeping the chatroom but making it fuzzy.
So basicly the idea is to make it harder for pirates/killers to find targets?
Yes, effort should be rewarded.
Remind me about The Maze.
I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message. |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:56:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Yes, effort should be rewarded.
This would indeed make the game more boring. But i dont know, i might be missing the need for this...
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The Eve Wiki Project |
Shinoobie
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:57:00 -
[9]
I personally feel this is a great idea.
If you have a good scout, then there should be no problem finding them.
People say this would be a timesink, isn't everything? Just get good at scouting.
5 minutes tops, I'd reckon it would take me to find a single hostile in a constellation. And I mean to the point of actually scrambling the person until backup arrived.
Elite Scouting 
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.05.10 13:59:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/05/2006 13:59:56
Originally by: Shinoobie
I personally feel this is a great idea.
If you have a good scout, then there should be no problem finding them.
People say this would be a timesink, isn't everything? Just get good at scouting.
5 minutes tops, I'd reckon it would take me to find a single hostile in a constellation. And I mean to the point of actually scrambling the person until backup arrived.
But what is the need for prolonging the time it takes to find somebody? You can scout just fine in one system too. You guys feel there is not enough time to escape from scary people or something?
Im not sure why im almost alone in not understanding the need for this. Please help me. 
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The Eve Wiki Project |
Flyyn
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:01:00 -
[11]
Remove local....
replace with radar/sensor looking screen. Ranged out 2 au(?) Have symbols to repesent the ships, and color them for friendly, nuetraul, and hostile.
OR....
Replace local with known ships in local (like overveiw) but ranged out to system coverage. No names just ship class.
Dont mind me I am just trying to catch up to DS and HK on the boards.... |
Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:01:00 -
[12]
I agree too, only thing I would suggest is adjusted is that if your alliance has sov of the system.. or possibly the entire constellation you get accurate local like it is now.
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Breaka
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:01:00 -
[13]
If it only takes you 5 minutes to scan an entire constellation....with 5 systems....average of 5 planets per system... 8 moons....5 belts....you ARE good.
Bad idea
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MuffinsRevenger
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:02:00 -
[14]
woud just make things to complicated me thinks, and imagine jita PLUS the systems around it in one chat-room :D
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/05/2006 13:51:20
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Im not sure if im missing something, but wouldnt it just be a big timesink trying to find people?
It should be as I'd suspect the people you want to find doesn't want you to.
Great idea, keeping the chatroom but making it fuzzy.
So basicly the idea is to make it harder for pirates/killers to find targets?
What specific problems would this change address? Because i only see it as adding more difficulty finding specific players, or more difficult avoiding specific pirates.
It would make it easier for pirates actually, currently if you enter local you will be spotted and people will run from you. If you enter 'constellation local' people will know youre there but they wont know if youre in their system, hence theyll need to undock to go scout which allows pirates to find them as well.
This system would reward the people who put in an effort by having scouts instead of the ones who are lazy and instadock whenever someone enters local.
A current tactic for getting people by suprise is going AFK in local while youre doing real life stuff, the locals will get used to you being AFK inside the sys untill you come back, position your cov ops and they start dieing.
The same tactic would work here on a larger scale as the tactic would work in the entire constellation.
This system would make it harder for travelling pirates yet easier for pirates who live inside one constellation.
Originally by: Breaka
If it only takes you 5 minutes to scan an entire constellation....with 5 systems....average of 5 planets per system... 8 moons....5 belts....you ARE good.
Thats easy with a scout ship and instas.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
turnschuh
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:16:00 -
[16]
seriously why do some many ppl want to get "local" removed?
tell me one good reason to do this if you area 0.0 player and not a pirate/merc/ganker.
removing local would lead to totally uncontrollable envirement, no corp or alliance could defent themselfs.
and guess what, CCP dont want this, they want that alliances can protect their space.
so instead of removing local, alliances are getting sentry guns, pos jumpgates, cyno disruptor, etc
local will never be removed and I totally agree with it.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
It would make it easier for pirates actually, currently if you enter local you will be spotted and people will run from you. If you enter 'constellation local' people will know youre there but they wont know if youre in their system, hence theyll need to undock to go scout which allows pirates to find them as well.
This system would reward the people who put in an effort by having scouts instead of the ones who are lazy and instadock whenever someone enters local.
A current tactic for getting people by suprise is going AFK in local while youre doing real life stuff, the locals will get used to you being AFK inside the sys untill you come back, position your cov ops and they start dieing.
The same tactic would work here on a larger scale as the tactic would work in the entire constellation.
This system would make it harder for travelling pirates yet easier for pirates who live inside one constellation.
If i was mining in some low sec space and couldnt trust local, i would run right away instead of bothering with scouts. Why take the chance when you are not combat fitted? And even if you try and scout, the guy can be in some other system when you find him, and then enter your system when you have gone back to mining. You wouldnt get any warning at all. So what are you going to do as the miner... avoid the whole constellation or be forced to take the chance that you still have some time before the pirate finds you?
Is this really an improvement of the game? Besides, travelling in 0.0 would be very difficult since you would have to scout entire constellations. And even then you wouldnt be safe since people will move around between systems without you having a clue.
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The Eve Wiki Project |
Sovy Kurosei
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:24:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Change it to constellation, simple.
One question, what exactly does this change fix with the current system we have running now?
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ToxicFire
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:24:00 -
[19]
I think if local was seriously considered to be removed you'd have to take stuff away from the universe map such as number of pilots in a system and the ships destroyed in a system basicly anything that gives an active idea of how many people are where except for soverignty claims
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Hesed
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:32:00 -
[20]
What about scanner noise for finding people or objects?
You'd have constellation info, but if the scanner was made more complex, you'd have a lot more play.
You could get a message of a faint warp core signature every time one came within 3AU, but it might turn out to be just an npc. Anything between 3AU-12AU is just a "faint signal" that could be anything, even nothing. Likewise, a lowslot for acquiring faint scans beyond 12AU is also fine.
No more asteroids or moons or such inanimate objects without a special scan enhancer tool.
At the most then, you might have a number of what's in the same system, but no names.
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Roue
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:38:00 -
[21]
Fantastic! I totally support this idea.
This may not be the end all of the issue but it is an immediate resolution that helps both sides of the parties find a center ground.
This should be implimented immediately.
It will offer the hunters a chance to catch greedy prey who don't make use out of the advanced warning and instead find themselves compelled to disregard "potential hostiles" as "potentially systems away" to continue mining. It will offer conservative or cautious prey a chance to evade with greater warning engagements as well as move through low sec with less specific locational alarm.
It will make prey more difficult to ascertain as they could be in a constellations worth of stations. And low sec systems mixed with high sec in certain constellations will be confusing.
In the end the prepared, skilled and cautious will win out with tactics and the less will lose. But the definition of engagement won't be as clearly relying on that single implement.
Scouting will be more encouraged to know when a fleet leaves a specific system, and advanced warning sentries monitoring deep space constellations will offer more rally time for a defense advantage which has long been needed.
DO IT.. omg this must be done!
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Raven Aure
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:42:00 -
[22]
From a purely practical point of view, having over 1000 people would make it unworkable due to the amount of conversations.
______________________
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Most people are in write-mode only in these forums
106 days and still a hijack virgin...
Cherry popped!  ~kieron
OMGHI2U Kieron - Eshtir
Eshtir, you stole my colour! - Vanamonde
I wanna play - Petwraith |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:51:00 -
[23]
Interesting idea, but the drawback is kinda, instead of needing scouts in multiple systems to keep eye on possible fast moving enemy fleets, you'd now be getting a constellation range worth of early warning with no work at all...
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Khajit Smitty
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Posted - 2006.05.10 14:54:00 -
[24]
Didnt Oveur mention something about nerfing local ?
Anyways i for one agree that local needs changing, the changing of it to constelation would to me make the most sense as apposed to removing it completly...
There are many reasons to remove/change it, yes i live in 0.0, engage in pvp combat etc and i have seen what local does to engagements, it becomes a count and the force with a smaller fleet leaves, or ur solo snipers warp to a safe spot and log as they see local increase or recongnise pilots and the ships they fly, ambushes are hard to setup and targets are hard to catch as they know who is chasing them not from visual contact but from a local count or from alt/scouts.
I have noticed in previous posts that people have said it will take too long to find the person, etc, yes it may but i dont think that you have applied some proper thought to this - at the moment you need to visit every system in a constelation to see if targets are about and guess what THERE MIGHT NOT BE ANY, where as with changing local to constelation, atleast you know that they are about - so in my mind it would lessen the time needed to some degree to locate that person.
Claw of the Ancients is Recruiting
Our home page |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:06:00 -
[25]
I think alot of you guys needs to see the whole picture. Yes, changing local to what is suggested would be good for fleet battles, but how would it affect other areas of the game?
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The Eve Wiki Project |
Steiner
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:09:00 -
[26]
I realy like this idea, Pirates would get more surprise factor and the carebears get potencaly more peace at there mining ops since not everyone is willing to scann all the belts too see if there might be someone there, and even the carebears can scan them before they arrive. Would make more sense In my opinion.
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Lord Slater
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:16:00 -
[27]
I sort of see what you are tying to do but all i can see it doing is basically killing off about 40 - 60% of empire mining. Because from experience you always ahve them watching local channel for known pirats to show up and when they do the mining stops.
So if hostiles show up in a constilation channel then you are more likely to have 1 or more hostiles on there all the time. You see miners are cowards at heart and tend to hide when trouble shows up on local.
YARRR HAHAHA im the happy pirate YARRRR
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Hesed
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:22:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Hesed on 10/05/2006 15:23:38
Originally by: j0sephine
Interesting idea, but the drawback is kinda, instead of needing scouts in multiple systems to keep eye on possible fast moving enemy fleets, you'd now be getting a constellation range worth of early warning with no work at all...
Not on the edge of constellations. Also, comfort breeds overconfidence. Lack of knowledge results in inaction or alt scouting.
In some cases of people in territory they know well, constellation wide info would reveal when anyone entered bottleneck for a pocket constellatino, or it might mean they just logged in somewhere. It's not really information at all then.
Chronically overcrowded systems can be made their own constellation, but are more likely paired with unoccupied systems that are laggy by proxy anyway. Just so long as we don't get two busy systems in the same constellation.
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:24:00 -
[29]
Why not remove the list of people in local? It would work exactly as it does now, but you can choose not to be seen if you want, simply by not speaking.
Just removing local would be bad, but I would like it to be replaced with a more realistic system, even if it's a system that does basically the same thing.
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Sorry but that link contains nawty language. -wystler
"Discussing moderation is not allowed" - Ivan K
"Ranting is prohibited" - Teblin
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
It would make it easier for pirates actually, currently if you enter local you will be spotted and people will run from you. If you enter 'constellation local' people will know youre there but they wont know if youre in their system, hence theyll need to undock to go scout which allows pirates to find them as well.
This system would reward the people who put in an effort by having scouts instead of the ones who are lazy and instadock whenever someone enters local.
A current tactic for getting people by suprise is going AFK in local while youre doing real life stuff, the locals will get used to you being AFK inside the sys untill you come back, position your cov ops and they start dieing.
The same tactic would work here on a larger scale as the tactic would work in the entire constellation.
This system would make it harder for travelling pirates yet easier for pirates who live inside one constellation.
If i was mining in some low sec space and couldnt trust local, i would run right away instead of bothering with scouts. Why take the chance when you are not combat fitted? And even if you try and scout, the guy can be in some other system when you find him, and then enter your system when you have gone back to mining. You wouldnt get any warning at all. So what are you going to do as the miner... avoid the whole constellation or be forced to take the chance that you still have some time before the pirate finds you?
Why would they scout? Because otherwise theyd be stuck inside a station for as the pirates remains in the constellation, for all you know hes docked at a station 3 jumps away, in which case you would know where hes coming from and you can keep an eye on said gate/direction.
In order to truely make this work the scanner would have to work like the overview, so if you point at say a gate people would show up on it without having to spam the button.
In this case the scout can find the pirates and the miners can keep an eye on the gate.
Unless the pirate is smart and tries to flank them of course... 
While were at it, if you have sov on a sys you should be able to deploy a short range scanner at your pos. This gives you a detailed overview of all ships in the system.
If you have constellation sovernighty you should be able to deploy a long range scanner at your POS, which shows you a list of pilots, their ships and which system of said constellation they are in.
Originally by: ToxicFire
I think if local was seriously considered to be removed you'd have to take stuff away from the universe map such as number of pilots in a system and the ships destroyed in a system basicly anything that gives an active idea of how many people are where except for soverignty claims
I would prefer seeing a limit placed on the minimum amount of people required to be in a sys before they show on the map. Ie; if system population stays below 10 the system will be marked empty on the map, after that it gets accuratly listed.
Originally by: Sovy Kurosei
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Change it to constellation, simple.
One question, what exactly does this change fix with the current system we have running now?
errr.... read my posts....
Originally by: Raven Aure
From a purely practical point of view, having over 1000 people would make it unworkable due to the amount of conversations.
That could be true, ive never been in a channel with 1k people though so i wouldnt really know.
Originally by: j0sephine
Interesting idea, but the drawback is kinda, instead of needing scouts in multiple systems to keep eye on possible fast moving enemy fleets, you'd now be getting a constellation range worth of early warning with no work at all...
Well scouts tend to move faster then fleets in my experience, assuming theyve got a full set of gate to gate bms of course...
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Kye Kenshin
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:26:00 -
[31]
How about 0.5+ keeps local as it is now.
Low sec has constellation channel like josh said.
As for 0.0 if your a member of an alliance with constellation sov you get to use local and constellation for all those systems. Plus if you have very good standings with said Alliance you also get to use their local channels.
If you are in hostile or neutral 0.0 space you get the constellation channel instead.
Might work.
Also gives defending alliances the upper hand.
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:29:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 15:30:07
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I think alot of you guys needs to see the whole picture. Yes, changing local to what is suggested would be good for fleet battles, but how would it affect other areas of the game?
I had small scale/piracy style combat in mind when i suggested this system as i have little experience (or no recent experience) in fleet combat.
One of the main problems i run into when trying to kill my enemies is that entering local = They all dock. The lovely part with NPC stations is that theres no way we can prevent them from docking so all they have to do is wait till we get bored and continue with what theyre doing.
Leaving a cov ops AFK in system for a few hours works as they usually come out and start NPCing/mining/whatevering so then we kill a battleship or two before they all dock again.
The current system favours the prey, its a perfect danger avoidance system in 0.0 as its 100% accurate all the time. Local currently means that only the lazy and stupid people can be killed, everyone else will know what to do when an enemy pops into local.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:31:00 -
[33]
"Well scouts tend to move faster then fleets in my experience, assuming theyve got a full set of gate to gate bms of course..."
What i meant is, someone who is not moving nor has any scouts up, still gets the early warning about incoming enemy long before this enemy actually enters their system. As it is now, this warning only triggers when the enemy actually jumps in the same system you're in ^^;;
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:37:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 15:44:18
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 15:37:54
Originally by: j0sephine
"Well scouts tend to move faster then fleets in my experience, assuming theyve got a full set of gate to gate bms of course..."
What i meant is, someone who is not moving nor has any scouts up, still gets the early warning about incoming enemy long before this enemy actually enters their system. As it is now, this warning only triggers when the enemy actually jumps in the same system you're in ^^;;
True, but then you are flying in a fleet, its not like a fleet should ever be truely able to hide.
The result for fleets would be fairly the same as it currently is, if i saw 100 hostiles jumping into my system i would sure as hell run for the hills, if i see 100 hostiles jumping into my constellation i would run for the hills just as fast.
But, lets say the system im in is linked to a sys in a diffrent constellation, one could hide the fleet there while sending a cov ops into my system. I wouldnt know where the cov ops was and i prolly would go around a look for a bit, of course its a cov ops so i wouldnt find a thing.
This leaves me with the option to a: Hope hes not in my system and continue what i was doing while keeping an eye on the scanner or b: hide in the station untill it leaves the constellation.
A lot of people will pick a because waiting in a station is pretty damn boring.
Originally by: j0sephine
edit:
"One of the main problems i run into when trying to kill my enemies is that entering local = They all dock. The lovely part with NPC stations is that theres no way we can prevent them from docking so all they have to do is wait till we get bored and continue with what theyre doing."
So, with this new system it'd instead be: getting as much as few systems near = they all dock. And until you spend hours in that constellation (which is after all just a few systems, all of them with docked people so nothing to do) ... it's still just case of waiting you out and then coming to play again... :/
Well, sort off. Currently it works like this;
I enter Sys A, they all dock. I enter sys B, everyone there docks and sys A goes back their normal activities, i go back to sys A, same situation the other way around.
Under the new system i can freely travel between systems looking for targets because they have no idea which sys im really in, only that im nearby, eventually theyre gonna undock as theyll get bored inside, then covert ops pilots will be able to freely track people down because you no longer pop in and out of local.
This system however does favor the huinters that hunt where they live rather then hunters that fly around looking for stuff to kill, since people who live there will be a familiar sight in the constellation channel and this make people dock less.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:47:00 -
[35]
Edited by: j0sephine on 10/05/2006 15:52:42
"The result for fleets would be fairly the same as it currently is, if i saw 100 hostiles jumping into my system i would sure as hell run for the hills, if i see 100 hostiles jumping into my constellation i would run for the hills just as fast."
Yup, catch being: with per-system warning you can try to coordinate fleet movement, so that you have multiple smaller groups approaching the system from multiple angles, effectively sealing the enemy in or whatnot.
With per-constellation warning.... you can forget it.
"This leaves me with the option to a: Hope hes not in my system and continue what i was doing while keeping an eye on the scanner or b: hide in the station untill it leaves the constellation.
A lot of people will pick a because waiting in a station is pretty damn boring."
You still believe lot of people in this game actually take risks? hrhr. :P
Call me pessimistic but i'd rather expect to see more station camping, that's all. Because why risk it when one can just wait them out? --;;
edit: to clarify, this solution relies on people being impatient enough to come out even with potential risk behind the corner, in order to work. But from what i've seen, if there's one thing in EVE that's available in spades, then it's patience. That and alts in another part of universe that one can simply log on and play with if they are being camped in station.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.05.10 15:54:00 -
[36]
No thanks
Its a no-brainer.
Enemies could be next door and not in your constellation = no idea.
Enemies could be 5 jumps away yet in your constellation = in chat
How borked is that?
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Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2006.05.10 16:00:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 16:01:06
Originally by: j0sephine
"The result for fleets would be fairly the same as it currently is, if i saw 100 hostiles jumping into my system i would sure as hell run for the hills, if i see 100 hostiles jumping into my constellation i would run for the hills just as fast."
Yup, catch being: with per-system warning you can try to coordinate fleet movement, so that you have multiple smaller groups approaching the system from multiple angles, effectively sealing the enemy in or whatnot.
With per-constellation warning.... you can forget it.
True, but then thereÆs always the passivity of adding special ship types that add tactics to eve;
Capital ships that great cloaking bubbles: Make your entire fleet invisible.
Capital ships that disrupt all local and constellation communications: Sure if all communications die people will know **** is about hit the fan, but since they can not see who is in local nor can they talk in there they will have no clue what so ever as to what direction they should be running in.
The thing I hate most about Eve is the fact that thereÆs no real tactics ingame, everything is straight forward; Local is your perfect scout, the map tells you everything you need to know, anything about the game can be found whether its locations of high end ore, stats of æmysteriousÆ jovian ships to amount of damage and damage types produced by NPCÆs.
Why cant we disrupt local? Why cant we fake make info by deploying scouts to mimic blobs on the map to keep the enemy occupied while the real fleet is moving under the cover of special ship class that disrupts the map info in that system.
Tbh, fixing local is one of the many steps required to make eve more interesting.
Originally by: j0sephine
"This leaves me with the option to a: Hope hes not in my system and continue what i was doing while keeping an eye on the scanner or b: hide in the station untill it leaves the constellation.
A lot of people will pick a because waiting in a station is pretty damn boring."
You still believe lot of people in this game actually take risks? hrhr. :P
Call me pessimistic but i'd rather expect to see more station camping, that's all. Because why risk it when one can just wait them out? --;;
Well, i like to think most people in 0.0 tend to make calculated risk from time to time, we've fighting red and we've had fun shooting them and getting shot by them, they do tend to take risks from time to time.
All the other times they run for the station when one of enters local and then just waits for us to leave, giving us no way of actually kicking them out
As for station camping, while a slightly different subject; NPC stations, docking, docking spheres and aggression timers need a change tbh.
For starters; NPC station should gun down anyone they have crappy standings towards.
Secondly; the re-docking timer should be longer then the invulnerability timer you get after undocking, this would prevent people from undocking to see whatÆs outside then count to 30 and re-dock without everyone ever being able to lock them.
Thirdly; station docking spheres need to be sized down, you can sit like 40 km from a station and still dock...
Lastly; Stations and gates need to have separate aggression timers, stations should not allow anyone who is involved with combat to dock with them, this would stop people from undocking and re-docking just to **** the enemy off and it will prevent people from sitting in docking range acting cool while hitting the dock button if any goes near them.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:01:00 -
[38]
Hmm stupid character limits....
Originally by: Deja Thoris
No thanks
Its a no-brainer.
Enemies could be next door and not in your constellation = no idea.
Enemies could be 5 jumps away yet in your constellation = in chat
How borked is that?
Well if it would simply display everyone within say 3 jumps it would become even better as a scout then local. These 'gaps' created by systems next to you who are not in your constellation would allow smart people to get around without actually showing up in local yet.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:07:00 -
[39]
"As for station camping, while a slightly different subject; NPC stations, docking, docking spheres and aggression timers need a change tbh."
Perhaps this is actually the real way to 'fix local'? Because current issue with local is pretty much "they can see us and run and then we have no way to catch them". Which is the problem -- it's not the knowledge you're in a system, it's how it's being reacted to.
Just make it possible to still catch them while they're on the run. Make these 100% safe havens not so 100% safe.
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Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:12:00 -
[40]
Your opponent hides, you won. Simple like that.
But some people just can't be happy with those victories because they're lacking the proof for their epeen, sorry I meant killboard.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:18:00 -
[41]
"Your opponent hides, you won. Simple like that."
You won nothing. They still pose as much threat as they did, as soon as you leave. For that matter, nothing stops them from jumping on your back while you're on your way out. Some victory indeed.
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Bruno Bonner
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Posted - 2006.05.10 16:19:00 -
[42]
I kinda like the idea, it will allow me to check my surrounding area for targets either if im a hunter or prey.
However, there needs to be a tool for the scout pilot, a sort of scanner that gives system wide signatures.
Let me explain a bit.
If i enter a system knowing my target is in the constellation, there should be in place some kind of tool that allows to do a sweep scan of the system, so i can warp to the locations where i detect a signature blip.
otherwise scouting is just boring, even with instas, because it translates to warping to every single beacon in the system (no thanks).
The only problem, it will bust safespots too wich i dont think is a good idea.
Perhaps the answer can be a type of "probe" that does the scanning.
I do believe nerfing a bit local is good thou.
regards
Bruno
------
aka BinderAJ |
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:21:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 16:25:46
Originally by: j0sephine
"As for station camping, while a slightly different subject; NPC stations, docking, docking spheres and aggression timers need a change tbh."
Perhaps this is actually the real way to 'fix local'? Because current issue with local is pretty much "they can see us and run and then we have no way to catch them". Which is the problem -- it's not the knowledge you're in a system, it's how it's being reacted to.
Just make it possible to still catch them while they're on the run. Make these 100% safe havens not so 100% safe.
ItÆs a combination of both tbh, youre never gonna be able to stop people from running as soon as you enter local, well apart from removing local completely that is but that would be annoying.
That or giving players some way of ejecting other players from the station, but that would be bad as people would just start lumping AFK people into space and pod killing them. And tbh I enjoy being able to go AFK.
Originally by: Tachy
Your opponent hides, you won. Simple like that.
But some people just can't be happy with those victories because they're lacking the proof for their epeen, sorry I meant killboard.
I realize it might be difficult to see all the way from 1.0 space but some people actually try and do more then just stroke their epeen in 0.0.
When an enemy docks that means he has won because his ship survived and he lived to fight another day, most likely a day when I wont be around so he can try and kill industrials or other unarmed ships right before running back to the safety of his station.
The only way to win is to keep them out, that way they cant use up resources, blockade systems and do various other things we donÆt like.
But then, to the average empire population that prolly counts as epeen stroking right?
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Helmut 314
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:23:00 -
[44]
When real actual scanning is introduced, yes, by all means remove local.
With real scanning I mean :
* 3D scanning by scan probes
* Passive detectors for electronic noise from say a gate activation that you can fit to a ship.
* Active scanners you can fit to a ship that can find rough range and bearing to a target. A coarse grain tool to complement the scan probes.
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
Hunters Presence
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:26:00 -
[45]
Quote:
How i would 'fix' local
Local is not broken. It is a feature that some people disagree with.
-----
Lead Games Programmer @ Quasit-Rushyo Games | Me! |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:26:00 -
[46]
"ItÆs a combination of both tbh, youre never gonna be able to stop people from running as soon as you enter local (..)"
Aye, am fine with them being able to run. I just want to have a good chance at catching them while they do ;s
(simply removing ability to insta-warp to station dock range would fix plenty of this. Slow boating 20 km to dock while hostile tacklers are most likely in warp there ready to intercept you... good luck :P
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Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:28:00 -
[47]
Originally by: j0sephine
"ItÆs a combination of both tbh, youre never gonna be able to stop people from running as soon as you enter local (..)"
Aye, am fine with them being able to run. I just want to have a good chance at catching them while they do ;s
(simply removing ability to insta-warp to station dock range would fix plenty of this. Slow boating 20 km to dock while hostile tacklers are most likely in warp there ready to intercept you... good luck :P
True, but then how do you prevent people from setting up insta dock bms? Prevent the making all of all bms near stations? Including sniper spots? What about covert ops alt/free trial/2nd accounts providing a jump in point?
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:28:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 16:28:42
Originally by: Hunters Presence
Quote:
How i would 'fix' local
Local is not broken. It is a feature that some people disagree with.
My dog wasnt broken either, we still had it 'fixed' though 
Just because it aint broken doesnt mean it could be better if changed.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:30:00 -
[49]
They use the same mechanics as you do.
Your suggested change favors those hunting others.
It would help the alliances to find out if there are others around in the constellation quickly, without having to trust the not that trustworthy map.
The pilots it hurts most are the miners and industrialists that are not part of one of the huge alliances who want to grab a few loads of minerals from lowsec or Nulsec.
Atm they can go to the next safespot when someone enters the system. With the system chat gone, they'd have no chance to do so until it is to late.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:31:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tachy
They use the same mechanics as you do.
Your suggested change favors those hunting others.
It would help the alliances to find out if there are others around in the constellation quickly, without having to trust the not that trustworthy map.
The pilots it hurts most are the miners and industrialists that are not part of one of the huge alliances who want to grab a few loads of minerals from lowsec or Nulsec.
Atm they can go to the next safespot when someone enters the system. With the system chat gone, they'd have no chance to do so until it is to late.
You didnt read my suggestion did you...?
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:36:00 -
[51]
"True, but then how do you prevent people from setting up insta dock bms? Prevent the making all of all bms near stations? Including sniper spots? What about covert ops alt/free trial/2nd accounts providing a jump in point?"
Would unfortunately need a fix in game mechanics -- that is, any warp which would end within 20 km of station dock area, would be automatically shortened by enough distance to ensure that 20 km (or whatever) distance which would need to be covered "by foot". It's extremely simple case of vector math, so don't know why it's not already there but whatever ^^;
Mind you, since CCP mentioned they intend to fix the inta-bm "problem" somehow, suspect eventually this functionality will need to be built into game engine anyway, simply because without it any other solution would be just a crutch and possible to walk around in one way or another o.O;
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Jim McGregor
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:38:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/05/2006 16:38:48
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 15:30:07
I had small scale/piracy style combat in mind when i suggested this system as i have little experience (or no recent experience) in fleet combat.
One of the main problems i run into when trying to kill my enemies is that entering local = They all dock. The lovely part with NPC stations is that theres no way we can prevent them from docking so all they have to do is wait till we get bored and continue with what theyre doing.
Leaving a cov ops AFK in system for a few hours works as they usually come out and start NPCing/mining/whatevering so then we kill a battleship or two before they all dock again.
The current system favours the prey, its a perfect danger avoidance system in 0.0 as its 100% accurate all the time. Local currently means that only the lazy and stupid people can be killed, everyone else will know what to do when an enemy pops into local.
You could argue that the system works like in nature when tigers chase and kill their prey. He will catch one of them and eat it while the others manage to escape.
But i agree that its not good that eve works this way. Low sec systems should be dangerous and currently they are pretty safe since the prey can escape if it wants. You cannot sneak up on the prey and attack like in nature. Instead you are seen as soon as you enter local. I agree this is not a good system.
Im just not so sure what to do about it. Maybe remove local completely, but then low sec would become very, very dangerous instead.
---
The Eve Wiki Project |
Katamarino
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 16:48:00 -
[53]
All this will do is make life harder for the solo player, who doesn't always have a scout around. And there are a LOT of people who still enjoy flying solo.
No thanks (and i speak as one who hunts, so would allegedly 'benefit' from this).
|
Joshua Foiritain
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 17:06:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Im just not so sure what to do about it. Maybe remove local completely, but then low sec would become very, very dangerous instead.
Well another option would be to not show cloaked people in local, but meh, not sure if thats really a good idea tbh
Originally by: Katamarino
All this will do is make life harder for the solo player, who doesn't always have a scout around. And there are a LOT of people who still enjoy flying solo.
No thanks (and i speak as one who hunts, so would allegedly 'benefit' from this).
Tbh 0.0 isnt the place for the solo pilots, ps, i never said solo people would benefit from this, not at all. People who have friends that can scout would benefit from this, in other words people who put in the most effort.
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[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
Masu'di
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 17:13:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
So basicly the idea is to make it harder for pirates/killers to find targets?
What specific problems would this change address? Because i only see it as adding more difficulty finding specific players, or more difficult avoiding specific pirates.
i think it would make it a lot easier to kill them when you did find them. ambushes would be a lot easier to setup.
you would find less people for sure, but you would also find a lot less people running away when you enter local. |
Masu'di
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 17:16:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Well if it would simply display everyone within say 3 jumps it would become even better as a scout then local. These 'gaps' created by systems next to you who are not in your constellation would allow smart people to get around without actually showing up in local yet.
i think this would be a good idea, mostly for the amusing conversations you would read in the local. a guy 3 jumps from you may be talking to someone 4 jumps away, you would only get half the conversation. |
Nev Clavain
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 17:20:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Nev Clavain on 10/05/2006 17:23:03
Don't think this would work. A more subtle solution is going to be required than simply the total removal of local chat and its replacement by something more 'fuzzy'
Imagine how tedious for both those hunting, and those trying to exist without being killed, having to scout out an entire constellation just to find your target only made one jump in and out of the constellation and was probably nowhere near you.
Even with local as it is, I waste alot of time scouting out people who are simply passing through. Extend this principle to a constellation chat system and it becomes ludicrous. The flow of traffic almost anywhere would be enough to disrupt the day to day activities of everyone except hunters/pirates. Also it would increase the number of wild goos chases for the hunters themselves, as they suddenly start looking for someone who is systems away, and after 20 mins of searching he leaves the constellation.
Although some people seem to think any way in which the game can be made more tedious and time-consuming is a good thing - so that those who endure the tedium have an advantage - I don't. If that makes me a 'carebear' then so be it.
I think, rather than removing local which seems like a rather blunt solution, the only sensible way for this 'problem' is to make a balance where if you want to be 'immune' from local you gimp all chances of being an effective solo combatant, say limit the scout to being a tackler at most realistically, also would have to be some counter to this totally invisible ship - some way of tracking it down. If you want killing ability then you show up to everyone in system. This way if you want to be a scout - be a scout, want to be a dangerous fighter - be a dangerous fighter. Don't know how this could be implemented exactly - maybe through modules, maybe through new ship classes.
For the pirates/hunters - the scout can move in undetected, locate and scramble a target, and wait for the cavalry to arrive. In the time it takes for people to arrive from another system - the tackler may have been destroyed by local forces or the target itself. That way there is balance.
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Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 17:35:00 -
[58]
Use scan probes to see if someone is in the system while you're moving towards the best scanning place. That's something the miner/NPC hunter/complexr runner can't do constantly. Many pirats scan the systems with an alt first - at least in lowsec.
Constellation chat does not work because the #pilots is to big to make it useful unless you're way down in Nulsec where you know most pilots from corp or alliance chat unless they're targets.
Removing instas gets the miner/industrialist killed much easier than the hunter.
Yes, I remember the time when most pilots didn't know about instas.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 17:54:00 -
[59]
"Use scan probes to see if someone is in the system while you're moving towards the best scanning place."
You do realize the scan time on long range probes, and that they require you to enter specific ship type to look for... don't you?
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Hysenthlay
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Posted - 2006.05.10 18:03:00 -
[60]
please for the love of all...
make my overview settings show up near near the picture icon in local.
so tired of constantly having to adjust my address book to try to see who is ebil and who is nice.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2006.05.10 18:04:00 -
[61]
The problem with this is positioning.
If I mine in a system that is not at the edge of the constellation then I will always have advanced warning of the player looking for me, yet that player will never have a chance of actually finding me.
In short, what it does is only remove one side of the local equasion. The side that makes it easier to find targets is removed, the side that makes it easier to evade being a target is actually increased in potency.
I'd ratehr keep things as they are then, seems quite boring to me and I foresee new high times for logoff merchants.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.05.10 18:07:00 -
[62]
@Rod Blaine: Intersting point you write there.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Tachy
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 18:13:00 -
[63]
Originally by: j0sephine
"Use scan probes to see if someone is in the system while you're moving towards the best scanning place."
You do realize the scan time on long range probes, and that they require you to enter specific ship type to look for... don't you?
... as in j0sephine's industrial or j0sephine's barge?
How long do you take to find the normal ships the 08/15 industrialist uses? 
Once you got the direction you can check for guards with your ship scanner in most situations.
--*=*=*--
Megadon
CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Luc Boye
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 18:15:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Luc Boye on 10/05/2006 18:15:36
Thats even worse then it is today. Instead of hitting safe when you jump in, carebears will be hitting safe when you're 5 jumps away. 
EDIT: Rod beat me to it
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DanMck
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 18:21:00 -
[65]
Edited by: DanMck on 10/05/2006 18:24:31
i don't understand these threads
a = so i need to fit scan probes to see if there is anyone in local , or hammer the lag creating scanner to find some nice ships that have been in space for ages
b = people that dock when a -10 enters local would leave these systems for good
c = really point b again , a miner in a 500m hulk is gonna mine while scanning every 30 secs , or mine in high sec (ask yourself that question after you lose one)
d = -10 moaning about targets head to 0.0 and you will find plenty /or join an alliance war
e = locater agents tell you the system are you going to nerf those aswell
f = with gang members, alliance members etc off overview , do i need to contstantly ask in TS/alliance chat if everyone is in the same system ? or just keep scanning
g = so 1/3 of my screen is going to be the scanner window open 24/7 to actually know if i am near anyone
h = 25k players scanning every 30 secs = lag
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2006.05.10 18:25:00 -
[66]
To OP,
I like the idea alot, it leaves "local" intact as far as being a social tool (the intended purpose of local in the first place) but reduces it's "eye of god" effect.
WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
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j0sephine
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 18:44:00 -
[67]
Edited by: j0sephine on 10/05/2006 18:45:33
"... as in j0sephine's industrial or j0sephine's barge?"
Yup; in addition to a ratting cruiser, assault cruiser, assault frigate, ot a battleship. That's 6 scans to perform already. And in the end maybe i was just passing through system in a shuttle or the 'shopping bag' interceptor.
Scan probes are just too slow and lack flexibility to be used 'while warping to best scanning place'
edit: oh and iirc barges and industrials have 2+ scan categories each, now that i think of it. So even more hassle...
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Tyranical Teabagger
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Posted - 2006.05.10 20:11:00 -
[68]
Grabs nerf bat and begins randomly hitting everything in sight saying it's overpowered. Maybe think about changing things in non-empire space, but I know it would keep me from ever going to lowsec if you did it in empire. It's already enought of a pain in the arse running missions through it w/o removing my best and many times only way of telling me how cautious I need to be in a system. At least til I had enought disposable income to replace anything that I'd loose. I'm serious Pirates make fun of carebears, but 3/4 of the time the wining to nerf this and nerf that and make me a module that pulls everyone in system w/o it to within 500m and insta pop them so i can take all thier loot. Give me an IWIN button! wahwahwah! It's really annoying what a bunch of babies some of you pirates are when you aren't good enough at what you do to get your way. People know you and avoid you in the systems you call home so move somewhere else, get your security rating up or find a different profession.
end of rant.
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Hunters Presence
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 20:54:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 16:28:42
Originally by: Hunters Presence
Quote:
How i would 'fix' local
Local is not broken. It is a feature that some people disagree with.
My dog wasnt broken either, we still had it 'fixed' though
Just because it aint broken doesnt mean it could be better if changed.
I just hate the implication that it's broken and needs fixing. I for one am perfectly happy with it. It works as intended.
-----
Lead Games Programmer @ Quasit-Rushyo Games | Me! |
Kilo Paskaa
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 21:16:00 -
[70]
Lets take a look at 2 persons. Firstly we have normal carebear and his corporation. They see me coming miles away. They will A: dock and get combat equipment, B: dock and smack so everyone will notice me.
Now my point of view. I enter the constellation, spent 10 minutes looking for target. Run tail between my legs when i see massive carebear blop that is looking for me. GG.
They have enought time to dock with the system we have now so why to give em time to think and plan before i strike?
--------
As you can see, i pwned Kieron for iskies. |
Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 21:32:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
The problem with this is positioning.
<snip>
We agree on this.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Phelan Lore
|
Posted - 2006.05.10 23:46:00 -
[72]
Keep the member count, add a two minute delay to load the memberlist. People jumping in don't see the memberlist and don't show up to others for 2 minutes.
Or just flat out remove the memberlist (which is what I'd do). 
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Edhel
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Posted - 2006.05.11 00:18:00 -
[73]
how about the alliance format
you can see how many people are in the system just don't know who.. so you'll use the scanner at that point.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.05.11 00:36:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Phelan Lore
Keep the member count, add a two minute delay to load the memberlist. People jumping in don't see the memberlist and don't show up to others for 2 minutes.
Or just flat out remove the memberlist (which is what I'd do).
This has been gone over time and time again. ALl you are doing is making people station alts by gates, and logging when other people come into local. Because they have literally no other reasonable form of defence (scanner won't warn you until shortly before you have a ceptor finding you then moments later 10 others turning up).
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Gothikia
|
Posted - 2006.05.11 00:41:00 -
[75]
Simple, get rid of local all together and change the whole way of detecting people/objects in system. CCP said they were working on changing the whole scanner thing anyway, and cool features like long-range sensors ect would give the tactical overlay a bigger function if intergrated with that.
For example, you might be able to detect that a person is in the solar system, but only within a certain range ect, blah blah blah, but if worked on by a game designer this could be a nice little area for adding more tactics and strategy into PVP.
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Gamer4liff
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Posted - 2006.05.11 01:43:00 -
[76]
You want to fix local?
Make names only appear if you say something.
Local fixed.
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Maya Rkell
|
Posted - 2006.05.11 01:51:00 -
[77]
...and 0.0 populations? Fixed too. As in, there won't BE any outside the hardcore.
"The Human eye is a marvelous device, with a very little effort it can overlook all but the most glaring injustice" - Quellchrist Falconer |
Voculus
|
Posted - 2006.05.11 04:07:00 -
[78]
I'd fix it by making it even easier to identify pirates. Add a flashing red border to their chat portrait, so they can be spotted at a glance.
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Gothikia
|
Posted - 2006.05.11 04:08:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Gothikia on 11/05/2006 04:08:53
Originally by: Voculus
I'd fix it by making it even easier to identify pirates. Add a flashing red border to their chat portrait, so they can be spotted at a glance.
hover > right click > show info
although, showing the STANDINGS around the name would be good...
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Sentinel Eeex
|
Posted - 2006.05.11 05:21:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Joshua Foiritain
Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 10/05/2006 15:30:07
Originally by: Jim McGregor
I think alot of you guys needs to see the whole picture. Yes, changing local to what is suggested would be good for fleet battles, but how would it affect other areas of the game?
I had small scale/piracy style combat in mind when i suggested this system as i have little experience (or no recent experience) in fleet combat.
One of the main problems i run into when trying to kill my enemies is that entering local = They all dock. The lovely part with NPC stations is that theres no way we can prevent them from docking so all they have to do is wait till we get bored and continue with what theyre doing.
Leaving a cov ops AFK in system for a few hours works as they usually come out and start NPCing/mining/whatevering so then we kill a battleship or two before they all dock again.
The current system favours the prey, its a perfect danger avoidance system in 0.0 as its 100% accurate all the time. Local currently means that only the lazy and stupid people can be killed, everyone else will know what to do when an enemy pops into local.
While we're at nerfing LOCAL, CCP should also disable bookmarks (instas), and make WCSs useless.
Anything else you pirates want, that would make your point-and-click experience more enjoyable? Maybe all ships should immedately be warp-scrambled as soon as you enter the region? Or maybe just the system?
LOCAL is one of the strongest weapons for us newbies. Take that away, and you've taken chance for many newbies to get out of secure space.
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