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Lasers Vs Rails (TUX PLEASE READ)

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bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:08:00 - [1] Ok for this comparison im just looking at the guns. Please keep in mind that the geddons bonus gives a 33.33% bonus to dmg/s while the thron gives 25%. all stats are taken from the tech II version of the gun. Tachyon 425 Optimal 53km 58km damage mod 5.4 3.3 ROF 12.5 9.56 DMG/s 0.432 0.3451 falloff 20 24 tracking 0.0139 0.009625 Mega B 350mm Optimal 48km 42km damage mod 3.6 2.4 ROF 9 7.31 DMG/s 0.4 0.32831 falloff 16 20 tracking 0.0153 0.01667 DHB D250mm Optimal 42km 58km damage mod 2.4 1.8 ROF 7.2 5.85 DMG/s 0.324 0.307 falloff 12 12 tracking 0.0175 0.0175 Tachyon vs 425. 425's have a better optimal than tachyons making it better at EXTREME ranges. Other than that the tachyon does heaps more damage than the 425 with better tracking and less falloff. The tachyon has a much better damage mod allowing the geddon to smash the megathron in the dmg/s department aswell as the instant dmg. If your not taking too much fire ie. sniping, the geddon with tachyons will easily outperform the megathron. Megabeam vs 350's For some stupid reason CCP decided that rails range advantage ends here. For no reason at all lasers now have the better optimal range which combined with better damage and tracking realy make 350's inferior in just about every way. Dual heavy beams Vs dual 250 rails Ok things get worse here. Despite 250mm's beating heavy beams at range with the cruiser class modules, dual heavy beams smash dual 250mm rails. The dual heavy beams beat the rails by nearly 45% when it should be the rails that have the longer range. Again tracking and damage are way better in the laser. CCP WTF is with this? an armageddon with dual heavy beams does prety much the same damage as a 425mm railthron and is much easier to fit, not to mention the much better tracking. Why they hell are megabeams outranging 350's? and dual heavy beams smashing dual 250mm's when their cruiser cruiser equivilent are so different. Please look into these stats and tell us why you screwed over rails so bad. Instead of giving tachyons a boost in damage maybe you should look at guns that people dont use because they suck. Tachyons right now have a role as an insta damage ship for getting big bursts in fleet battles. If that isnt a good enough reason maybe you should rethink artillery entirely. I see armageddons fit tachyons all the time but im yet to see a megathron with 350's or dual 250's. CCp your giving a boost to a weapon no one asked for. Fix railguns because right now there is just no reason to use them.
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:10:00 - [2] ok the spacing is all messed up there should be a gap between the stats that seems to have dissapeared when i posted it.
keepiru	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:12:00 - [3] Edited by: keepiru on 13/05/2006 13:12:26 have you remember to apply 25% ship dmg bonus to the rails? because most amarr ships do not have a damage bonus and so lasers HAVE to do more damage, or youd be better off just fitting hybrids. use CODE tags ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:21:00 - [4] Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 13/05/2006 13:12:26 have you remember to apply 25% ship dmg bonus to the rails? because most amarr ships do not have a damage bonus and so lasers HAVE to do more damage, or youd be better off just fitting hybrids. use CODE tags If you count in damage bonus the armageddons ROF bonus effectively increases its DPS by 33.33%. This is alot more then the megathrons bonus so in no way do lasers HAVE to do more damage.
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:24:00 - [5] Eve is not Black/white .. there are so many factors that counts, when balancing stuff. Just by looking at numbers, it might seem unbalanced, but it really is not, and people tend to forget that .. alot Spirits in the night! Allll Niiight!!
Y Ashanti	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:27:00 - [6] Uhm, to be honest.. yes an Armageddon with Tachs/Megabeams doing more damage at 50-60k than most Blaster/Autocannon ships is a little bit unbalanced.
MOS DEF	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:29:00 - [7] Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:32:08 Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:30:19 Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:29:29 Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 13/05/2006 13:12:26 have you remember to apply 25% ship dmg bonus to the rails? because most amarr ships do not have a damage bonus and so lasers HAVE to do more damage, or youd be better off just fitting hybrids. use CODE tags If you count in damage bonus the armageddons ROF bonus effectively increases its DPS by 33.33%. This is alot more then the megathrons bonus so in no way do lasers HAVE to do more damage. Have you ever even tried to use a tachyon geddon? I think you are just talking out of your behind like 99% off the forum whiners. Get a clue dude. 425mm railthron > tachyon geddon anyday. Geddon has extreme grid trouble with tachs. You only have 3 mids where you need 2 sensor booster to even be able to lock at range. A ROF bonus can't compete with a dmg bonus in fleets either since you usually get only one volley on the primary ine anyways.
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:29:00 - [8] Originally by: LWMaverick Eve is not Black/white .. there are so many factors that counts, when balancing stuff. Just by looking at numbers, it might seem unbalanced, but it really is not, and people tend to forget that .. alot Ok geddon does more damage than meagthron by a long way and is much cheaper. How is it balanced?
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:32:00 - [9] Originally by: LWMaverick Eve is not Black/white .. there are so many factors that counts, when balancing stuff. Just by looking at numbers, it might seem unbalanced, but it really is not, and people tend to forget that .. alot do u ever see any 350mm megas? no? well its says something about them is totally **** also put it this way, a t1 cheap kitted named megabeam guns gedden does better than a t2 kitted 350mm rail mega at the same range at all ranges! is that balance? -------------------Sig----------------------- Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:35:00 - [10] Originally by: MOS DEF Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:32:08 Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:30:19 Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:29:29 Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 13/05/2006 13:12:26 have you remember to apply 25% ship dmg bonus to the rails? because most amarr ships do not have a damage bonus and so lasers HAVE to do more damage, or youd be better off just fitting hybrids. use CODE tags If you count in damage bonus the armageddons ROF bonus effectively increases its DPS by 33.33%. This is alot more then the megathrons bonus so in no way do lasers HAVE to do more damage. Have you ever even tried to use a tachyon geddon? I think you are just talking out of your behind like 99% off the forum whiners. Get a clue dude. 425mm railthron > tachyon geddon anyday. Geddon has extreme grid trouble with tachs. You only have 3 mids where you need 2 sensor booster to even be able to lock at range. A ROF bonus can't compete with a dmg bonus in fleets either since you usually get only one volley on the primary ine anyways. High: 7 tachyon beam laser II's Med: 2 sensor booster II's 1 tracking computer II Low: 2 reactor control II 3 heatsink II 2 tracking enhancer II 1 med rep II Done. Way better burst damage than megathron and way better DPS with a tier 1 ship.

Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:37:00 - [11] Originally by: MOS DEF Have you ever even tried to use a tachyon geddon? I think you are just talking out of your behind like 99% off the forum whiners. Get a clue dude. 425mm railthron > tachyon geddon anyday. Geddon has extreme grid trouble with tachs. You only have 3 mids where you need 2 sensor booster to even be able to lock at range. A ROF bonus can't compete with a dmg bonus in fleets either since you usually get only one volley on the primary ine anyways. first the volley of tachs > 425 by 23% taking into account megas +5% dmg per lvl at lvl 5 secondaly lots of ppl use tach geddens in pvp! grid troubles? what else u gona fit in lows with 3dmg mods maxing out your dmg, WCS? 208km with 2 sensor boosters is more than enough! -------------------Sig----------------------- Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen
MOS DEF	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:38:00 - [12] Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:39:58 Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:39:28 Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: MOS DEF Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:32:08 Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:30:19 Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:29:29 Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: keepiru Edited by: keepiru on 13/05/2006 13:12:26 have you remember to apply 25% ship dmg bonus to the rails? because most amarr ships do not have a damage bonus and so lasers HAVE to do more damage, or youd be better off just fitting hybrids. use CODE tags If you count in damage bonus the armageddons ROF bonus effectively increases its DPS by 33.33%. This is alot more then the megathrons bonus so in no way do lasers HAVE to do more damage. Have you ever even tried to use a tachyon geddon? I think you are just talking out of your behind like 99% off the forum whiners. Get a clue dude. 425mm railthron > tachyon geddon anyday. Geddon has extreme grid trouble with tachs. You only have 3 mids where you need 2 sensor booster to even be able to lock at range. A ROF bonus can't compete with a dmg bonus in fleets either since you usually get only one volley on the primary ine anyways. High: 7 tachyon beam laser II's Med: 2 sensor booster II's 1 tracking computer II Low: 2 reactor control II 3 heatsink II 2 tracking enhancer II 1 med rep II Done. Way better burst damage than megathron and way better DPS with a tier 1 ship. I seriously hope to meet you in a fleet fight once. No ECM no ECCM just plan guns. OMFG we would've won. Those fu**ers cheat with their scorps. wahwahwah. Maybe you should consider that the geddon can do nothing but deal dmg. DMG mods don't win fights. Never did. I will say it again therefore: Mega > Geddon in fleet.
Shirei	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:40:00 - [13] It's called long range. Good luck with your EW at 150-180k.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:40:00 - [14] Originally by: MOS DEF I seriously hope to meet you in a fleet fight once. No ECM no ECCM just plan guns. OMFG we would've won. Those fu**ers cheat with their scorps. wahwahwah. at 200km your safe from ECM ECCM is a wast! if u get jamed warp out and back in, or just wait there for the cycle to finish -------------------Sig----------------------- Boost the raven, i dont know how since its got great volley damage, massive range, any damage type, overpowered tank BUT BOOOOOOOSTTTT them raveneeeeen
MOS DEF	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:41:00 - [15] Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:44:43 Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: MOS DEF I seriously hope to meet you in a fleet fight once. No ECM no ECCM just plan guns. OMFG we would've won. Those fu**ers cheat with their scorps. wahwahwah. at 200km your safe from ECM ECCM is a wast! if u get jamed warp out and back in, or just wait there for the cycle to finish That is true. A good reason to fight at 120k. ;) About your warp out or wait comment: No comment You think geddon is so much better fly it. The majority doesn't from what i see on the battlefield so spare us your whine for stupid changes noone wants.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:45:00 - [16] Eh, you realize that 425mm is the Megabeam equivalent and Tachyons are above both..? Your whole argument falls apart here. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:45:00 - [17] Now try to compare a Megathron with 425mm Railguns and a Apocalypse with Tacyhons. The Armageddon is one of few Amarrian spaceships with Damage / RoF bonus. Just because it outdamages a Megathron does not make it any better, just different. "We brake for nobody"
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:47:00 - [18] Originally by: MOS DEF Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: MOS DEF I seriously hope to meet you in a fleet fight once. No ECM no ECCM just plan guns. OMFG we would've won. Those fu**ers cheat with their scorps. wahwahwah. at 200km your safe from ECM ECCM is a wast! if u get jamed warp out and back in, or just wait there for the cycle to finish That is true. A good reason to fight at 120k. ;) About your warp out or wait comment: No comment Dude I made up a setup in like 1 minute. Of course its not gonna be immune to everything. You dont have to use that exact setup every time, i was just demonstraiting that the geddon can fight very effectively at extreme ranges just like you said it couldnt a few posts earlier.
MOS DEF	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:49:00 - [19] Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:51:17 Looking at this the domi must be horrible overpowered at close range: A domi can suck my geddon dry and kill me with drones while tanking my dmg till my cap runs out. I have no chance. What do we learn from this? The Domi and Heavy NOS/NEUTs need the NERF and the geddon is totally gimped! OMGWHINE! Edit: If you call double RCU paperthin gunboat efficient then yes. The rest just uses the apoc as everyone else in fleet combat. Compare thr right ships to eachother and you will see that the mega and 425mm rails are perfectly fine. Actually one of the more deadly ships out there atm.
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:50:00 - [20] Edited by: LWMaverick on 13/05/2006 13:51:42 nm Spirits in the night! Allll Niiight!!

bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:51:00 - [21] Originally by: DigitalCommunist Eh, you realize that 425mm is the Megabeam equivalent and Tachyons are above both..? Your whole argument falls apart here. Huh? Where is this written down? Also i dont see how this changes anything.
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:53:00 - [22] Originally by: MOS DEF Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:51:17 Looking at this the domi must be horrible overpowered at close range: A domi can suck my geddon dry and kill me with drones while tanking my dmg till my cap runs out. I have no chance. What do we learn from this? The Domi and Heavy NOS/NEUTs need the NERF and the geddon is totally gimped! OMGWHINE! Edit: If you call double RCU paperthin gunboat efficient then yes. The rest just uses the apoc as everyone else in fleet combat. Compare thr right ships to eachother and you will see that the mega and 425mm rails are perfectly fine. Actually one of the more deadly ships out there atm. Dude if you want to talk about dominix go somewhere else. This thread is about lasers and rails and nothing else.
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:55:00 - [23] Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: DigitalCommunist Eh, you realize that 425mm is the Megabeam equivalent and Tachyons are above both..? Your whole argument falls apart here. Huh? Where is this written down? Also i dont see how this changes anything. go forth and try and fit tachyons
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:56:00 - [24] We are comparing the megathron and armageddon. THe amarr gunship vs the gallente gunship. I dont care about dominixes and apocs and what they can do thats different. Im very sure a tanking apoc with nos could spank a 425mm railthron just as easy but i realy dont care. Please keep this thread on track.
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:58:00 - [25] Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: DigitalCommunist Eh, you realize that 425mm is the Megabeam equivalent and Tachyons are above both..? Your whole argument falls apart here. Huh? Where is this written down? Also i dont see how this changes anything. Its been written by both TomB and Tuxford 68746516843487 times on this forum. And yes, it changes everything. You're comparing the inferiority of 425mm against Tachyons when they're not even the same weapon class. 350mm rails are kind of junk, but only because Mega Pulse and now 1200mm are so much better. Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame.
MOS DEF	Posted - 2006.05.13 13:59:00 - [26] Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 14:00:06 Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: MOS DEF Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:51:17 Looking at this the domi must be horrible overpowered at close range: A domi can suck my geddon dry and kill me with drones while tanking my dmg till my cap runs out. I have no chance. What do we learn from this? The Domi and Heavy NOS/NEUTs need the NERF and the geddon is totally gimped! OMGWHINE! Edit: If you call double RCU paperthin gunboat efficient then yes. The rest just uses the apoc as everyone else in fleet combat. Compare thr right ships to eachother and you will see that the mega and 425mm rails are perfectly fine. Actually one of the more deadly ships out there atm. Dude if you want to talk about dominix go somewhere else. This thread is about lasers and rails and nothing else. I am using your argumentation though. Tachyons are used on apocs as 425mm are used on megas. You suddenly brought a geddon into play to proof that tachyons do more dmg. Well dual RCU2 tachyon geddons usually don't fly around for a very damn good reason wich is why you should use the apoc to compare in the first place. If you think teh tach geddon is overpowered then just bring it into fleet combat.
CptEagle	Posted - 2006.05.13 14:03:00 - [27] Then give us 500mm Railguns.
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 14:03:00 - [28] Ok for a start why the hell shouldnt I compare amarr's best laser Vs the gallente's one. Why would it not being the equivelent make any difference at all.
bundy bear	Posted - 2006.05.13 14:04:00 - [29] Originally by: MOS DEF Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 14:00:06 Originally by: bundy bear Originally by: MOS DEF Edited by: MOS DEF on 13/05/2006 13:51:17 Looking at this the domi must be horrible overpowered at close range: A domi can suck my geddon dry and kill me with drones while tanking my dmg till my cap runs out. I have no chance. What do we learn from this? The Domi and Heavy NOS/NEUTs need the NERF and the geddon is totally gimped! OMGWHINE! Edit: If you call double RCU paperthin gunboat efficient then yes. The rest just uses the apoc as everyone else in fleet combat. Compare thr right ships to eachother and you will see that the mega and 425mm rails are perfectly fine. Actually one of the more deadly ships out there atm. Dude if you want to talk about dominix go somewhere else. This thread is about lasers and rails and nothing else. I am using your argumentation though. Tachyons are used on apocs as 425mm are used on megas. You suddenly brought a geddon into play to proof that tachyons do more dmg. Well dual RCU2 tachyon geddons usually don't fly around for a very damn good reason wich is why you should use the apoc to compare in the first place. If you think teh tach geddon is overpowered then just bring it into fleet combat. Thats funny because I see tachygeddons more than beam geddons. Why wouldnt I compare amarrs gunship to gallentes?
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2006.05.13 14:04:00 - [30] Originally by: bundy bear We are comparing the megathron and armageddon. THe amarr gunship vs the gallente gunship. I dont care about dominixes and apocs and what they can do thats different. Im very sure a tanking apoc with nos could spank a 425mm railthron just as easy but i realy dont care. Please keep this thread on track. Who said each ship has to be exactly balanced to its tier'd counterpart? When it comes to balance something will always have the edge, sure the geddon is better but not head and shoulders above.



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