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Analysis coming Pirate BS changes - Machariel

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Medai Kesrith Kel'anthein 1	Posted - 2014.04.15 14:56:00 - [1] - Quote Details: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=337011&find=unread In short: Machariel is nearly unchanged but gets Cruiser warp speed and warp acceleration. Stats (only T1 variants): Battleship basic warp speed = 2.0 AU Cruiser basic warp speed = 3.0 AU Destroyer basic warp speed = 4.5 AU Frigate basic warp speed = 5.0 AU Machariel warp speed with different setups - Eifyr and Co. 'rogue' Warp Drive Speed WS 615 = 3.4 AU - Full low grade Ascendancy = 4.0 AU - Full high grade Ascendancy = 4.6 AU add a Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II to all setups - Eifyr and Co. 'rogue' Warp Drive Speed WS 615 = 4.3 AU - Full low grade Ascendancy = 5.0 AU - Full high grade Ascendancy = 5.8 AU Conclusion: The biggest recent nerf to LvL 4 mission runner and any anomalie(null and WH) farmer was the warp speed change. A BS needs about 1:30min to warp 25 AU in a system. That was killing the ISK/h severly. With a high grade Ascendancy the coming Machariel will warp like a Destroyer. And please don't tell me the Rattlesnake will be superior because of ~1400 DPS, that is what a good fitted Machariel is doing anyway with far better damage application. Welcome the old and new king of LvL 4 mission farming, especially if you are in the blitzing mission business there will be no better ship like the Machariel.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1930	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:16:00 - [2] - Quote what are the numbers on marauders? "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Medai Kesrith Kel'anthein 1	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:19:00 - [3] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: what are the numbers on marauders? Marauder basic warp speed = 2.2 AU the thing is the Machariel will not only warp with 3.0 AU but gets the warp acceleration like a Cruiser too.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1930	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:32:00 - [4] - Quote guess it's time to reactivate my mach pilot. then again, missions are ***** boring... "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF**
Medai Kesrith Kel'anthein 1	Posted - 2014.04.15 15:40:00 - [5] - Quote If you are in the mission blitzing business, consider this Machariel that will warp with a high grade Ascendancy 5.8 AU faster than a Frigate :). Quote: [Machariel, warp speed] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gist C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Garak n00biachi Capital Destruction Brig Consortium 129	Posted - 2014.04.15 16:26:00 - [6] - Quote Good to see the Mach gets a well needed buff........................what the f are they thinking,i dont get it lol
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1930	Posted - 2014.04.15 16:31:00 - [7] - Quote Medai Kesrith wrote: If you are in the mission blitzing business, consider this Machariel that will warp with a high grade Ascendancy 5.8 AU faster than a Frigate :). Quote: [Machariel, warp speed] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Gist C-Type 100MN Microwarpdrive Pithum C-Type Adaptive Invulnerability Field Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Small Tractor Beam I Large Projectile Metastasis Adjuster II Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays. "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Goldiiee Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies 996	Posted - 2014.04.15 18:45:00 - [8] - Quote Well they did nerf it a bit a few expansions ago (IIRC) with the TE-II changes. So a little love is nice, though not expected. Edit; Yeah when I saw the changes posted I great big sigh of relief escaped from me, I really didn't like the idea of changing and training a whole new set of weapons and ships to V. Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Dani Skye Pro Synergy 1	Posted - 2014.04.15 18:55:00 - [9] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays. I've never been able to make an armor mach make sense over a shield mach given you'll be shooting angels. I'd love to armor tank one (delicious Tracking Computers) but giving up shield explosive resist seems silly. =/
Goldiiee Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies 996	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:14:00 - [10] - Quote Dani Skye wrote: Daniel Plain wrote: the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays. I've never been able to make an armor mach make sense over a shield mach given you'll be shooting angels. I'd love to armor tank one (delicious Tracking Computers) but giving up shield explosive resist seems silly. =/ That and the damn thing moves like a maelstrom to me when I fit armor. Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Estella Osoka Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis 341	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:29:00 - [11] - Quote Nightmare might be comparable to the Machariel with the AB buff. Also note the Mach got a targeting range buff, but it's align time and scan res were nerfed. I don't know if the Rattlesnake changes equal a buff or a nerf. I'm still a little undecided on the Gurista ship changes. Only 2 drones???
Dani Skye Pro Synergy 1	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:39:00 - [12] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Nightmare might be comparable to the Machariel with the AB buff. Also note the Mach got a targeting range buff, but it's align time and scan res were nerfed. I don't know if the Rattlesnake changes equal a buff or a nerf. I'm still a little undecided on the Gurista ship changes. Only 2 drones??? If you want the Nightmare to be as fast as a Machariel, it won't be close even after the buff.
Dani Skye Pro Synergy 1	Posted - 2014.04.15 19:40:00 - [13] - Quote Double posting like a chump.
Goldiiee Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies 996	Posted - 2014.04.15 20:24:00 - [14] - Quote Yeah I saw someone post it (Nightmare) would get 1000m/s with an AB, but when I plug it into HQF I am getting 444m/s. I am sure that can be adjusted for skills, AB meta and whatnot, but it really isn't that hard to take the current speed and multiply it by 130%. Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Dersen Lowery Laurentson INC StructureDamage 1097	Posted - 2014.04.15 21:00:00 - [15] - Quote Goldiiee wrote: Yeah I saw someone post it (Nightmare) would get 1000m/s with an AB, but when I plug it into HQF I am getting 444m/s. I am sure that can be adjusted for skills, AB meta and whatnot, but it really isn't that hard to take the current speed and multiply it by 130%. Quick back-of-the-envelope calculation. NM base speed: 114m/s; w/ Navigation V, 142.5m/s 100MN AB II base bonus: 135%; w/ Caldari Battleship V, 285%; w/ Acceleration Control V, 356% Bonuses are added to base 100%, so AB speed is 142.5m/s * (100+356)% = 670m/s with an AB II and only those two skills factored in. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
Dani Skye Pro Synergy 3	Posted - 2014.04.15 21:02:00 - [16] - Quote Goldiiee wrote: Yeah I saw someone post it (Nightmare) would get 1000m/s with an AB, but when I plug it into HQF I am getting 444m/s. I am sure that can be adjusted for skills, AB meta and whatnot, but it really isn't that hard to take the current speed and multiply it by 130%. 30% per level, not total. Right Now prop mods on a Nightmare look like: MWD = 855.5m/s [118 (base speed with Navigation 5) * 7.25 (MWD is 625% Bonus with Acceleration Control 5)] AB = 356.95m/s [118 * 3.025 (X-type AB is 202.5%)] After the patch, the Nightmare is getting BOTH the Caldari BS bonus AND a buff to base speed. MWD = 1033.13m/s [142.5 base speed with Navigation 5) * 7.25 (MWD is 625% Bonus with Acceleration Control 5)] AB = 864.26m/s [142.5 * 6.065 (see below) WIth Links, I could defintely see a 1k m/s AB nightmare. That said, there is some confusion on the wording of the AB bonus. My math above assumes it interacts multiplicatively and not additively with the AB Bonus. Multiplicatively: 162% (Gist X-Type AB) * 150% (Cal BS V) * 25% (Accel Control V) = 506.25% increase Additively: (162% + 150%) * 25% = 390% Increase If it stacks additively, you'll see: AB = 698.25m/s [142.5 * 4.90] In which case, you'll need implants AND links to hit 1k m/s AB Nightmare.
Estella Osoka Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis 341	Posted - 2014.04.15 21:10:00 - [17] - Quote After the patch it will be comparable to a Machariel using an AB. A BS that can do over 500m/s and can easily hit targets at range is something to take note of. The Macherial doesn't have the range application the Nightmare has, so it has to burn towards some targets; Nightmare does not. So the Nightmare can spend the time while it is killing targets to burn for the next acc gate if it has to. Of course I am comparing a AC Macherial and a Pulse Nightmare.
Goldiiee Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies 996	Posted - 2014.04.15 21:28:00 - [18] - Quote Dani Skye Dersen Lowery Your Math Fu is much stronger than mine LOL, thanks for the numbers. Clear as mud now. Things that keep me up at night;-á Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state,-áOnce you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Dersen Lowery Laurentson INC StructureDamage 1097	Posted - 2014.04.15 21:38:00 - [19] - Quote Dani Skye wrote: EDIT: Goddamnit someone beat me to it. Leaving the post because I spent longer typing it. :( And liked because you showed more of your work. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.
stoicfaux 4506	Posted - 2014.04.16 03:31:00 - [20] - Quote Medai Kesrith wrote: Conclusion: The biggest recent nerf to LvL 4 mission runner and any anomalie(null and WH) farmer was the warp speed change. A BS needs about 1:30min to warp 25 AU in a system. That is killing the ISK/h severly. With a high grade Ascendancy the coming Machariel will warp like a Destroyer. And please don't tell me the Rattlesnake will be superior because of ~1400 DPS, that is what a good fitted Machariel is doing anyway with far better damage application. Welcome the old and new king of LvL 4 mission farming, especially if you are in the blitzing mission business there will be no better ship like the Machariel. Debatable. Some very rough number noodling: With a Warp Speed I rig and a WS-610 implant, the Vargur can get 2.9 AU/s warp speed. Some blitzing numbers with such a Vargur: Average Total Mission Time:00:10:46 Average Travel Time00:02:5226.69% Average In Misssion Time00:07:2468.67% Average of 0.63 jumps for ~50 AU total distance or 25 AU each way. A corresponding Mach would get 4AU/s. So with eyeball estimates, you're maybe saving around 20 seconds round trip with the Mach. 2:52 travel time goes down to 2:32 travel time. Giving us: 10m46s / 10m26s = 1.02, or a 2% gain in income from improved warp efficiency. If you get that Mach up to 8 AU/s (ascendancy implants, 15% warp speed implant, 3 warp speed 1 rigs), you're probably knocking 40 seconds off round trip, for 10m46/ 10m06 = 1.07 or 7% increase in potential income. If you were to somehow knock off a full minute off of travel time, that's 10m46s / 9m46s = 1.1, or a 10% gain in potential income. Having said that, given that missile ships cannot make use of the slot 6 warp speed implant or from warp speed rigs (due to needing rigor rigs,) I could definitely see the Mach getting a minute advantage in warp speed against a CNR/Golem without spending a lot of isk to do so. disclaimer: it's late, it's maths, I wouldn't be offended if you check my work. WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
Medai Kesrith Kel'anthein 1	Posted - 2014.04.16 07:34:00 - [21] - Quote Did a check again: 26.2 AU warp with 0 speed at start until drop out (all ships T1), no warp speed or align time mods. Battleship = 67s (current Machariel) Cruiser = 44s (current Cynabal) Destroyer = 33s (Thrasher) Frigate = 26s (current Dramiel) The coming Machariel will cut off ~ 34% time vs any other T1 BS without any mods (Cruiser Warp speed) ~ 50% time vs any other T1 BS with a full high grade Ascendancy (Destroyer warp speed) ~ 61% time vs any other T1 BS with a low high grade Ascendancy + 1x Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II (Frigate warp speed) Consider how many missions you are doing in 1 hour when you are blitzing. At average you will need 1x jump, roughly 50AU to get to your mission, totalling 100AU to get back to your home station. Lets say you are blitzing 8 missions per hour. Warp time for 100AU Battleship ~ 255s Destroyer 50% cut off = 127.5s, time needed 127.5s Frigate 61% cut off ~ 155s, time needed 100s. 8 missions per hour Battleship warp time = 2040s, 34min Destroyer warp time = 1020s, 17min Frigate warp time = 800s, ~13min Best case you can shave off roughly 20min warp time that you aren't wasting. I call that significant. Even if my numbers aren't correct cut 25% of the 100AU and only 6 missions per hour you will still spare 10min every hour you aren't wasting in warp.
Caitlyn Tufy Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 607	Posted - 2014.04.16 08:12:00 - [22] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: I don't know if the Rattlesnake changes equal a buff or a nerf. I'm still a little undecided on the Gurista ship changes. Only 2 drones??? A significant buff (don't look at the number of drones, look at how much damage they'll pull off), though it won't beat a Mach at mission completion times - what it'll be able to do, though, is bring substantial dps at medium to long range and an absolutely insane dps for its tank at close range. The downside is that it's still a very slow ship.
Estella Osoka Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis 341	Posted - 2014.04.17 14:16:00 - [23] - Quote I understand that. However if you lose 1 sentry, your damage is halved until you deploy a replacement drone; and that is if you were smart to have extras of that type and don't be stupid and carry only 2 of each type (which some will prolly do). With only 2 sentries, you will really have to be on top of your drone management even moreso than people were with 5. I really don't see how a Rattlesnake can be justified now over a Domi.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau Cruis3r's Cr3w Inc. Constructive. Criticism. 88	Posted - 2014.04.17 14:18:00 - [24] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: I understand that. However if you lose 1 sentry, your damage is halved until you deploy a replacement drone; and that is if you were smart to have extras of that type and don't be stupid and carry only 2 of each type (which some will prolly do). With only 2 sentries, you will really have to be on top of your drone management even moreso than people were with 5. I really don't see how a Rattlesnake can be justified now over a Domi. damage, pure and simply damage. i recon the rattle will do double the damage of a domi.
Jenn aSide STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries 5949	Posted - 2014.04.17 15:20:00 - [25] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: I understand that. However if you lose 1 sentry, your damage is halved until you deploy a replacement drone; and that is if you were smart to have extras of that type and don't be stupid and carry only 2 of each type (which some will prolly do). With only 2 sentries, you will really have to be on top of your drone management even moreso than people were with 5. I really don't see how a Rattlesnake can be justified now over a Domi. The drones the Rattlesnake )and the other 2 gurista ships) will put out are 'super' drones. Sentries launched from a rattlesnake will have about as much EHP as a CRUISER lol. A small remote rep will be all anyone needs to keep those sentries alive in just about every pve scenario short of full aggro in a DED 10/10 or lvl 5 mission. (And ti goes without saying, anyone who knows how to keep aggro off their drones in the 1st place understand how good the new Snake will be). Kinetic or thermal missiles fired from a 'Snake will be bonused. ANY missile, meaning you can put rapid light missiles on it and as long as they are kin or therm, they get the bonus. And the snake is getting an extra missile launcher. End result is that the Rattlesnake is turing into a sub-capital pve beast the likes of which hasn't been seen in EVE (with the possible exception of the marauders). That being said, anyone who thinks their Rattlesnake is now worthless can contract that sucker to me, I'll take it off your hands, no charge. Because I'm nice like that.
Numba2 Special State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2014.04.17 15:26:00 - [26] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: I understand that. However if you lose 1 sentry, your damage is halved until you deploy a replacement drone; and that is if you were smart to have extras of that type and don't be stupid and carry only 2 of each type (which some will prolly do). With only 2 sentries, you will really have to be on top of your drone management even moreso than people were with 5. I really don't see how a Rattlesnake can be justified now over a Domi. Rattlesnake sentries will have 2.5 times as many hitpoints as they currently do and you'll only have 2 health bars to watch. I feel like you're focusing on the wrong problem if you're worried about losing so much dps when a sentry goes down.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau Cruis3r's Cr3w Inc. Constructive. Criticism. 88	Posted - 2014.04.17 15:40:00 - [27] - Quote Numba2 Special wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: I understand that. However if you lose 1 sentry, your damage is halved until you deploy a replacement drone; and that is if you were smart to have extras of that type and don't be stupid and carry only 2 of each type (which some will prolly do). With only 2 sentries, you will really have to be on top of your drone management even moreso than people were with 5. I really don't see how a Rattlesnake can be justified now over a Domi. Rattlesnake sentries will have 2.5 times as many hitpoints as they currently do and you'll only have 2 health bars to watch. I feel like you're focusing on the wrong problem if you're worried about losing so much dps when a sentry goes down. actually no 3.75 times is more like it if i understand the boni correct :P
Numba2 Special State War Academy Caldari State 2	Posted - 2014.04.17 17:13:00 - [28] - Quote 3.75 times the base health, but the Rattlesnake currently gets a 50% bonus to drone health, so it will be 2.5 times as much health as current Rattlesnake heavies/sentries.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1935	Posted - 2014.04.17 18:34:00 - [29] - Quote Dani Skye wrote: Daniel Plain wrote: the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays. I've never been able to make an armor mach make sense over a shield mach given you'll be shooting angels. I'd love to armor tank one (delicious Tracking Computers) but giving up shield explosive resist seems silly. =/ so stop shooting angels...? "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF
Medai Kesrith Kel'anthein 1	Posted - 2014.04.18 11:36:00 - [30] - Quote Daniel Plain wrote: Dani Skye wrote: Daniel Plain wrote: the cool kids armor tank their machs nowadays. I've never been able to make an armor mach make sense over a shield mach given you'll be shooting angels. I'd love to armor tank one (delicious Tracking Computers) but giving up shield explosive resist seems silly. =/ so stop shooting angels...? That would be stupid, Minnie and Amarr right now have the best corps with the highest ISK/LP ratios. About the Rattlesnake, forget it, even with 2x TP and a web you won't hit Cruisers very good with your CM. You may switch to Torps but good luck with that and your below 25km effective range. The new Rattlesnake will be a very good short range PvP boot with Torps and others providing 2xTP + web on your target but that's it.

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