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Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
953
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Posted - 2014.04.23 07:12:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have some thoughts on the Plex mechanics that I'd like to discuss with the wider FW group.
Plex warfare. The single NPC's for example. There is literally no point to them being there other than to stop/start the timer. The npc can be killed a a day old char in a T1 meta 0 fitted frig in all the plex sizes. The NPC's were 'tweaked' to supposed play less of a part in the pvp in the plex but instead they pretty much handed the plexes over to the farmers. I actually liked the old npc's waves. You had to kill them off and you had to keep aware of them otherwise you would get blapped. When they switched to a single NPC it was the big red light to the farming hordes IMO. Not to mention 85% of the FW LP items just became unobtainable since the amount of tags that dropped were like 100th of the previous volumes.
For plex mechanic changes I'd bring back the old NPC waves that spawned periodically during the timer run down. The timer would then pause until you killed them off. I'd also make them easy enough to kill by a pvp fit ship of the correct size for the plex but tough enough that it would take a fair bit of time or a specially fitted pve ship of a smaller size to kill them. For example If I play a pvp fit frigate I should be able to kill the NPC waves in novice very easily and small pretty easily without much too much bother. But If I took the same frigate to a medium it should take me much longer to kill the npc's. However if I fit my frigate specifically to kill those NPC's (i.e pve fit) then I shouldn't have much of an issue. But if I took my frigate, regardless of fit, to a large it would take a long time to kill the npc waves and make it counter productive etc. This would also ensure that militia tags became sought after again to exchange for LP items or sold to non-FW players etc.
Plex timers: These are a PITA imo. If I chase a WT out of a plex I have to run down the plex timer + whatever time he has ran previously. What a load of tosh! If I go and 'rescue' my militia help outpost why would it take longer for them to 'reset' back to normal activities! I think all FW plex timers should reset to 'neutral' 30s after the last 'hostile' player left grid.
I would also remove defensive LP from plexes that ran in a own militia held system. I would make plexes spawn as either Offensive or Defensive for offensive plex you get full LP modified by teir lvl and for defensive plex you get 75% lp modified by teir lvl. Now this is also dynamic based on whether the plex is your own militia or your enemies. And both militia plex would spawn in any system in the warzone regardless of who currently holds that system. So for example I'm Amarr militia and I'm flying in an Amarr held system. I spot a minmatar small plex. I warp to this plex. This plex is 'offensive' to me meaning I have to kill the npc's to enable the time to run down etc but I will get full LP from this plex plus a stack of tags from the npc's. I also spot an Amarr small plex in system. I warp to this plex and it is 'defensive' to me so I don't have to kill the npc's (an the waves will not spawn) and the timer just runs down as normal. I however only get 75% of the LP to run this plex as It didn't take an effort to run. Both small plex would be worth same value of VP in regards to capturing the system etc.
I would also bring back to old 'restricted' large plex. These had acceleration gate and could accept up to BC class ships. The current large would go back to being 'unrestricted' and allow anything (including caps) I would also make sure every FW system had at least 1 of each in system just like there is a novice, small and medium outpost in every system now and they respawn 30 mins after being ran,
These 'fixes' would give a bit more 'to do' factor in plexs and it would pretty much kill off the 'afk farmer' blight that is hounding FW at the moment.
Now I am one of the crowd who generally thought the changes brought in inferno did a huge amount to give FW the boost it needed but the further changes have messed it up again somewhat. These are ideas to bring back certain items I feel worked well in the 'old system' that can be adapted to the new.
TL:DR Bring back NPC waves (and give us tags for more faction goodies), reset plex timers when hostiles leave plex, Change up offensive and defensive plex spawning and rewards and more large plex for larger ship stuff!
EDIT: PS I don't mention WCS or OGB as I really don't give a ducks arse about them and imo they have very little effect in the grand scheme of things. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Silverbackyererse
Nasranite Watch
52
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Posted - 2014.04.23 07:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:.
TL:DR Bring back NPC waves (and give us tags for more faction goodies), reset plex timers when hostiles leave plex, Change up offensive and defensive plex spawning and rewards and more large plex for larger ship stuff!
EDIT: PS I don't mention WCS or OGB as I really don't give a ducks arse about them and imo they have very little effect in the grand scheme of things.
Yes. Yes. No. Yes. Edit : Indeed
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Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
953
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Posted - 2014.04.23 08:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
I too don't see CCP changing anything in FW for some time. But these have been playing on my mind recently so I jot them down to put them to rest That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
742
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Posted - 2014.04.23 09:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
All changes were made by player requests so FW is now fine, now stop making it better. |
Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
953
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Posted - 2014.04.23 10:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:All changes were made by player requests so FW is now fine, now stop making it better.
Very true! And I remember a few of us warning everyone to be care what they wished for! That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch
744
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Posted - 2014.04.23 10:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:All changes were made by player requests so FW is now fine, now stop making it better. Very true! And I remember a few of us warning everyone to be care what they wished for!
But hey if i understood right same guys who made game braking FW farm are now fixing industry so i believe game will be better !
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
129
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Posted - 2014.04.23 10:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Actually i would do away with NPCs in plexes altogether because:
1) I'm fine with just player on player interaction
2) I HATE it when my OWN FACTION NPCs ***** on my solo killmails!!! |
Silverbackyererse
Nasranite Watch
53
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Posted - 2014.04.23 10:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:All changes were made by player requests so FW is now fine, now stop making it better.
What happened to the succinct "No!" BM?
QFT though. We got what we wanted and now we don't want it any more. Bit like being married really. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
299
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Posted - 2014.04.23 11:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
NPCs didn't stop the timer from running down in the old FW, and made plex fights completely unbalanced for actual PVP.
I ran medium plexes in a speedy dual rep incursus, tanked the whole room while the timer ran down... then warped out.
With the old NPC waves, Caldari rats used ECM completely skewing attempts to have actual fights.
That said, I understand that you are proposing to blend certain features of the current FW system with the old. I'm just pointing out a few errors in your first paragraph, specifically that "You had to kill them off and you had to keep aware of them otherwise you would get blapped." I'm sure some people did kill the rats, but it wasn't necessary in o finish the plex and it was possible to mostly ignore them without getting killed. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2155
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
1. They stated they have the "dial" that they can use to increase rat difficulty if they want to. They just haven't done it. 2. Timer rollbacks.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2155
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:22:00 -
[11] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:NPCs didn't stop the timer from running down in the old FW, and made plex fights completely unbalanced for actual PVP. You had to kill all the rats before the latest changes. This was pretty much the only time the farmers actually abandoned FW.
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
171
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Posted - 2014.04.23 12:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
1. Increase the tank of the rats, requiring more DPS. A 1 day old alt in a 60dps frigate shouldn't be soloing the cruisers in mediums.
2. If a FW pilot is in the plex, the timer should be counting as normal. No FW pilot in the plex? Decay to neutral. No FW pilot in the plex for X minutes and timer is neutral? Decay to zero. FW pilot enters the plex and timer has decayed from neutral? Reset to neutral, count it up as normal. No FW pilot in the plex and timer decayed to zero due to inactivity? Despawn the plex, no LP awarded, no change to system contested percentage.
No more half finished plexes sitting around, no more disparity of effort. |
Plato Forko
Of Questionable Lineage
57
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Posted - 2014.04.23 19:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Plex warfare. The single NPC's for example. There is literally no point to them being there other than to stop/start the timer. The npc can be killed a a day old char in a T1 meta 0 fitted frig in all the plex sizes. The NPC's were 'tweaked' to supposed play less of a part in the pvp in the plex but instead they pretty much handed the plexes over to the farmers. I actually liked the old npc's waves. You had to kill them off and you had to keep aware of them otherwise you would get blapped.
Yeah uh, farmers have to watch out for actual non npc pilots coming to blap them too. This only changes things for farmers that plex at dead hours in backwater systems.
Quote:Plex timers: These are a PITA imo. If I chase a WT out of a plex I have to run down the plex timer + whatever time he has ran previously. What a load of tosh! If I go and 'rescue' my militia help outpost why would it take longer for them to 'reset' back to normal activities! I think all FW plex timers should reset to 'neutral' 30s after the last 'hostile' player left grid.
invalidating the time someone spent running a timer just because they might possibly be a farmer is silly. that pretty much kills ninja plexing and destroys part of what makes FW awesome; the ability to earn some income and do some damage with inferior numbers.
Quote:I would also remove defensive LP from plexes that ran in a own militia held system. I would make plexes spawn as either Offensive or Defensive for offensive plex you get full LP modified by teir lvl and for defensive plex you get 75% lp modified by teir lvl. Now this is also dynamic based on whether the plex is your own militia or your enemies. And both militia plex would spawn in any system in the warzone regardless of who currently holds that system. So for example I'm Amarr militia and I'm flying in an Amarr held system. I spot a minmatar small plex. I warp to this plex. This plex is 'offensive' to me meaning I have to kill the npc's to enable the time to run down etc but I will get full LP from this plex plus a stack of tags from the npc's. I also spot an Amarr small plex in system. I warp to this plex and it is 'defensive' to me so I don't have to kill the npc's (an the waves will not spawn) and the timer just runs down as normal. I however only get 75% of the LP to run this plex as It didn't take an effort to run. Both small plex would be worth same value of VP in regards to capturing the system etc.
not sure if i understand entirely, but wouldn't this just make it easier for a faction that already controls most of the warzone to stay at a higher tier and create more of a problem with profit farming?
My terribad blog where I QQ and rage about Amarr FW |
Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
954
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Posted - 2014.04.23 21:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Rinai Vero wrote:NPCs didn't stop the timer from running down in the old FW, and made plex fights completely unbalanced for actual PVP. You had to kill all the rats before the latest changes. This was pretty much the only time the farmers actually abandoned FW.
This very much.
And lets face it the NPC's never that great of an effect on actual pvp in the plex's. The only time I have ever been able to get something useful out of the npc's was when the button was like 60km from the warp in and I'd sit there in a rail harpy and shoot stuff that warped in. Now you wouldn't have much chance to do that with everyone warping on top of the button anyways. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
954
|
Posted - 2014.04.23 21:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Actually i would do away with NPCs in plexes altogether because:
1) I'm fine with just player on player interaction
2) I HATE it when my OWN FACTION NPCs ***** on my solo killmails!!!
1) lets welcome the no fit farmers and hand them everything they ever wanted with extra cherries eh?
2) I know right! kill whores the lot of them! That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Taoist Dragon
Sh1t Happens. And then you die.
954
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Posted - 2014.04.23 21:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Plato Forko wrote:Yeah uh, farmers have to watch out for actual non npc pilots coming to blap them too. This only changes things for farmers that plex at dead hours in backwater systems.
Point is to make farming an active activity one that you can't AFK through. Or limit the afking to a minimum. With the npc's waves it would still be possible to afk (mission runners still do it) but it would take longer. Farmers that take longer or are more distracted by npc's are easier to catch/kill the you get less farmers. Also see X-gal comment about npc's stopping the timer before the inferno winter update. Pretty much the only time farmers left FW.
Quote:invalidating the time someone spent running a timer just because they might possibly be a farmer is silly. that pretty much kills ninja plexing and destroys part of what makes FW awesome; the ability to earn some income and do some damage with inferior numbers.
It makes perfect sense. It would also speed up the capping of plex's and allowing a slight increase in would also compensate for having to kill npc's waves.
Quote:not sure if i understand entirely, but wouldn't this just make it easier for a faction that already controls most of the warzone to stay at a higher tier and create more of a problem with profit farming?
Potentially if the plex spawn mechanic was a 50/50 split in spawning but it could be quite easily be given a sliding bias based on the WZC levels. For example if you have 80% WZC then only 20% of plex's would be 'losing' sides plex. This would have the same effect as now where as you increase the number of systems you control you effective 'offensive' plexing is reduced to a couple of systems. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
http://taoistdragon.blogspot.com.au/ |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
909
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Posted - 2014.04.24 09:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:Taoist Dragon wrote:Bad Messenger wrote:All changes were made by player requests so FW is now fine, now stop making it better. Very true! And I remember a few of us warning everyone to be care what they wished for! But hey if i understood right same guys who made game braking FW farm are now fixing industry so i believe game will be better ! Ouch. You have grown even more cynical than me .. hahaha.
As for the OP: A little late to the party, but better than never. Most of the points have already been raised, although not recently so all is well. Plex changes should be the first leg in the War on Farmers, the more who realise that WCS and what not are peripheral/tangential at best the better.
Going to be an extremely hard sell though as Silverback's "Edit 2" is :SadPanda: true on all counts, and the only voices CCP hear are the Yes! men (aka. CSM) who supported the current system (probably on their masters/nulls behest). |
Sister Lumi
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
90
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Posted - 2014.04.24 13:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
There are more farmers than wannabe "pvpers" in farming warfare, so CCP is correct in listening to their subscribers.
Majority of FW players are currently more interested in quality of life improvements:
- block neutrals from entering plexes - change hub mechanics so that people don't have to spend the LP they earned to maintain tier - shorten the timers, especially the respawn timers are way too long - improve LP payouts, or at least introduce some mechanism to protect against sudden drop of tier. Nothing is more frustrating than running a plex and then the failmilitia fails to hold tier. - allow rookie ships in plexes - allow the timer to run while cloaked - introduce stations where we can convert LP to ISK without the stupid purchases
These are just for starters.
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Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
318
|
Posted - 2014.04.24 14:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sister Lumi wrote:There are more farmers than wannabe "pvpers" in farming warfare, so CCP is correct in listening to their subscribers.
Majority of FW players are currently more interested in quality of life improvements:
- block neutrals from entering plexes
but i liked killing farming alts and then the 'ima bring my main and kill you noob' and they loose a stabber fleet to me and cynthia nezmor blackbird alts
was my favorite part! |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch Heiian Conglomerate
749
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Posted - 2014.04.24 14:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Sister Lumi wrote:There are more farmers than wannabe "pvpers" in farming warfare, so CCP is correct in listening to their subscribers.
Majority of FW players are currently more interested in quality of life improvements:
- block neutrals from entering plexes - change hub mechanics so that people don't have to spend the LP they earned to maintain tier - shorten the timers, especially the respawn timers are way too long - improve LP payouts, or at least introduce some mechanism to protect against sudden drop of tier. Nothing is more frustrating than running a plex and then the failmilitia fails to hold tier. - allow rookie ships in plexes - allow the timer to run while cloaked - introduce stations where we can convert LP to ISK without the stupid purchases
These are just for starters.
way to make game better ! i bet CCP will implement all these on next FW related patch. |
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Sister Lumi
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
92
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Posted - 2014.04.24 14:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
It's all in the details.
Another minor fix we need is to make the plex NPC spawn closer to the warp-in beacon. It takes too long to get to lock range. Alternatively remove the unnecessary locking range and speed debuffs of warp core stabilizers.
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Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
224
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Posted - 2014.04.24 17:22:00 -
[22] - Quote
Waves would be bad. So would heavily increased numbers of NPCs. There were massive balance problems with the old system, and the sheer casualty numbers were just silly from a lore point of view. Single patrol boat seems right for a novice plex.
What is needed is slightly stronger and more dangerous NPCs. And then escort frigates for the cruisers and up.
A solidly fit t1 fit t1 frigate should easily beat a novice plex rat, but a stabbed/WCS one should not. That makes a pretty fine sweet spot, but it should be achievable.
I also think all FW NPCs should be fit to kill. They should have webs and scrams. At the same time, I would get rid of the silly speed thing they have going.
Plex difficulty is a relatively minor issue in FW mechanics, however.
Missions and the whole tier system are significantly more problematic. Lord Admiral of PIE inc. | -áRecruitment Information | Public Forum | Neocom channel: "PIE Public" | Amarr Victor! |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
349
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Posted - 2014.04.24 19:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:1. Increase the tank of the rats, requiring more DPS. A 1 day old alt in a 60dps frigate shouldn't be soloing the cruisers in mediums.
2. If a FW pilot is in the plex, the timer should be counting as normal. No FW pilot in the plex? Decay to neutral. No FW pilot in the plex for X minutes and timer is neutral? Decay to zero. FW pilot enters the plex and timer has decayed from neutral? Reset to neutral, count it up as normal. No FW pilot in the plex and timer decayed to zero due to inactivity? Despawn the plex, no LP awarded, no change to system contested percentage.
No more half finished plexes sitting around, no more disparity of effort.
#1 I like, #2 not so much.
The decay to neutral option could be abused. For instance, 6 people are sitting in a Medium plex in frigates, 5 WTs show up on short scan in Caracals. You know you can't take the fight so you run as soon as they warp in. They warp in find that you have left and then warp out of the plex and it resets to neutral. So now they only have to run it for 15 minutes instead of the 15 minutes + the time you had run it down. So now the 6 guys in frigates have less time to reship and go back to retake the plex. 15 minutes should be enough time, but we all know that not everyone reships quickly. In fact reshipping times on both side can be downright embarrassing at times. Seems to me it could discourage PvP. |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos
173
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Posted - 2014.04.24 21:08:00 -
[24] - Quote
Yeah, I can see how that would be problematic.
My intent was to create a mechanic with a tendency towards a neutral timer count, so that bailing from a plex and coming back a half hour later doesn't mean you get to pick up where you left off. I hate the disparity of effort it takes to capture a plex that's been run down by the opposite faction, as that disparity is part of what causes so many folks to simply leave rather than put in a disproportionate amount of effort to capture a plex for less rewards.
Not sure how to make that a reality though. |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
349
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Posted - 2014.04.25 15:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
You know, if you really want to **** on the farmers, once you get a system to 0%; def-plex all plexes down to about 1 minute and then leave the plex. You have now doubled the time the farmer will have to run those plexes. |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance Team Amarrica
318
|
Posted - 2014.04.25 15:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:You know, if you really want to **** on the farmers, once you get a system to 0%; def-plex all plexes down to about 1 minute and then leave the plex. You have now doubled the time the farmer will have to run those plexes. thats standard in any home system. |
Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1267
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Posted - 2014.04.28 01:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Rinai Vero wrote:NPCs didn't stop the timer from running down in the old FW, and made plex fights completely unbalanced for actual PVP. You had to kill all the rats before the latest changes. This was pretty much the only time the farmers actually abandoned FW.
Farmers have never abandoned fw since inferno.
Its also not true that players asked for the all changes ccp made. Players consistently said they did not want station lockouts. CCP did it anyway. It was a stupid change. Some changes - like not having after downtime being so important was something players wanted. CCP did that and it was a good change. Reducing the importance of npcs in a plex was also something players asked for and CCP did it. That was another good change.
3 changes that should still happen to help fw plexing are:
1) timer rollbacks
2) let players know where plexes are attacked
3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.
Increasing the importance of rats is simply going in reverse. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
1106
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Posted - 2014.04.28 02:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Cearain wrote: 3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.
Then you can complain about people having bigger corps or more friends and ask CCP to change the game again.
Many people have no problem with other people having the ability to put up a fight while outnumbered.
Why do a minority want to make eve pay to win by making it so only the person who can afford to consistently leeroy link ships on grid can use them? (Of course they will also make sure their link ship are neutral so its not effecting their corp efficiency.)
It is just another form of pay to win if links go ongrid the richest players will be the only ones doing it. The rest will camp on station undocks to be ongrid with their links and their will be no real pvp as we know it.
This is one of those 'Be careful what you wish for' situations.
Docked since 2009. |
Cearain
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
1267
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Posted - 2014.04.28 03:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Cearain wrote: 3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.
Then you can complain about people having bigger corps or more friends and ask CCP to change the game again.
No, I just think the whole booster alt pvp is bad, and would like a place to escape it.
At the very least, if your t3 alt can't go in the plex its effects shouldn't go in the plex either. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
1106
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Posted - 2014.04.28 04:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cearain wrote:IbanezLaney wrote:Cearain wrote: 3) Don't allow booster alt effects to work in plexes unless the booster ship is in the plex.
Then you can complain about people having bigger corps or more friends and ask CCP to change the game again. No, I just think the whole booster alt pvp is bad, and would like a place to escape it. At the very least, if your t3 alt can't go in the plex its effects shouldn't go in the plex either.
Remember: ECM alts are the next thing on the list you must complain about because you will 'want a place to escape it'
What do you think people will do with those toons once they can't use them to boost? Docked since 2009. |
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