I assume you'll lead the charge?

Miners ! Do you want CCP to do someting about the ganks on miners ?

Well it's easy guys.
Just unsub youre mining alts and stop mining.

Peace

CCP is doing something.... look at that Skiff!!!!

Isn't the procurer getting a similar buff? Puts a new whole meaning to bait ship. The bait ship can actually kill the bait now :D

I heard the Proc was losing a mid slot and gaining a low, which one one had would please the yield-miners and on the other will frustrate the good, sensible, safe miners who like to tank

But bigger drone bay, apparently.

Well it's easy guys.
Just unsub youre mining alts and stop mining.

Peace

They reversed the mid slot switch and just gave the skiff an extra low

I heard the Proc was losing a mid slot and gaining a low, which one one had would please the yield-miners and on the other will frustrate the good, sensible, safe miners who like to tank

But bigger drone bay, apparently.

PROCURER

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 4M, 2L;
Fittings: 45 PWG, 255(+5) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6000 / 5000 / 5500
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 800 / 187.5s / 4.27
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 160(+70) / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 440(-220) / 5(+1)
Sensor strength: 10
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 12000m3

I heard the Proc was losing a mid slot and gaining a low, which one one had would please the yield-miners and on the other will frustrate the good, sensible, safe miners who like to tank

But bigger drone bay, apparently.

Well it's easy guys.
Just unsub youre mining alts and stop mining.

Peace

The only downside is that these will probably continue to drive its price up even further, but then that will be good for some folk too.

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Procurers are stupidly cheap due to a massive oversupply dating back forever... they sell for 15 mill or so whilst they cost 20 mill plus to make. Its one of the few ships where T2 fits can cost as much as the hull.

If they end up mining at the same rate as a retriever they will become very viable if you are loading directly into an Orca. Especially with some fleet boosts to the tank.

Don't worry CCP, I will sub another gank alt to compensate for the OP

Procurers are stupidly cheap due to a massive oversupply dating back forever... they sell for 15 mill or so whilst they cost 20 mill plus to make. Its one of the few ships where T2 fits can cost as much as the hull.

If they end up mining at the same rate as a retriever they will become very viable if you are loading directly into an Orca. Especially with some fleet boosts to the tank.

Yes. And six months ago they were 10m

If? Dont they almost mine at the same rate as it is? (Im not a bean counter, so I dont count 10% +/- as an effective difference in rate)

The few who stubbornly refuse to leave their terribad retrievers will I suppose be able to pick up loads on the used market.

Last time I put it through EFT, The retriever mined with less then 1% more yield then the procurer. The only reason the retriever/machinaw is so popular is because they are AFK friendly with their large cargo bays. Basically all the retriever/machinaw are is suicide ganker magnets. Might as well just put up a sign that says gank me around your neck.

See, thats what I had suspected but never checked.

Lazy asses and people who dont know any better because they have terrible CEOs think that the Ret is in someway a better ship that the Proc

Last time I put it through EFT, The retriever mined with less then 1% more yield then the procurer.

EFT Warriors never get the whole story.

While on paper the Proc is almost as good the retriever wins cleanly in reality due to the bonus to make them all equivalent to 3 strip miners being a yield bonus for ore, not a time/cap bonus like ice got.
Which means that a Proc mines 'dead' roids far more often resulting in wasted time, and therefore reduced yield.

EFT Warriors never get the whole story.

While on paper the Proc is almost as good the retriever wins cleanly in reality due to the bonus to make them all equivalent to 3 strip miners being a yield bonus for ore, not a time/cap bonus like ice got.
Which means that a Proc mines 'dead' roids far more often resulting in wasted time, and therefore reduced yield.

Hmm... I heard there was a module for such situations, you know - survey scanners. But yeah again you actually have to be at the keyboard to use it...

Don't be lazy and play the game... That's the point we are making

On paper, ignoring the extra MLU of the retriever, yes.
However like I said, EFT Warriors never get the whole story. You are trying to EFT warrior also by simply looking at stats.
Which only give you the 'perfect world' scenario.

Actual use in space says despite the stats basically matching, the Proc actually doesn't do as well because it doesn't get as close to 'ideal' efficiency as the Retriever does on average.

Yup, if you are fitted for gold-farming you can fit a survey scanner instead of tank and never burn away a roid again

I dont get why/how squeezing the tiny percent is worth dying to some of these people

nah, its not that bad. I still get 51k ehp from a procurer with one of the mid slots fit with a survey scanner. But god forbid if you ask someone to fit a Damage Control II onto their mining barge :D Its amazing how a little less yield and one module will increase your life expectancy mining :D

No I can't give you a precise figure for 'real space yield' difference, because it's real space.
You can't sit down and calculate a precise figure that you will always be at.

However empirical testing does give me somewhere around a 5%ish margin using scanner + 2 MLU set ups. If you max yield a retriever for 3 MLU then retriever pulls further ahead. (Given the actual paper difference on a current max yield fit is a Proc mines 91% of the Retrievers yield, assuming ideal situations)
This will obviously vary based on the day, if you get distracted by rats just when you need to be cycling the strips, if you are pre aligning perfectly just as your hold fills, if you are running a fleet with a hauler orca so you can just poop ore out and not have additional time in warp on the proc, etc

But the end reality is, the Retriever as it stands currently does mine a significant amount more. So it's not terrible CEO's telling people to use it. Post Summer, this difference is obviously slightly reduced as there is a time reduction component built into the ship skills, which brings them both closer to ideal situations, but the proc benefits more from that.

Amazingly there are a lot of people who don't mine in large groups in this game.

The difference in ISK would be.... Hmmmm, hey, about that 14% mark you calculated. Amazingly a difference in ore translates directly into a difference in ISK income.

And a hauler 'alt' is A: A cost monthly. And B: Halving the income. So unless you are ISBoxing a massive fleet or running large scale ops (Hi Orca I referred to and Hi Covetor that is even better at that point) a dedicated hauler is inefficient.

A tanked barge won't save you in low, it won't save you from a wt and it won't save you from someone who really wants to gank you. All it will save you from is the casual gank for lols. And simply warping off when you see a catalyst or thrasher land on grid is just as good for saving you from the lols most times assuming you don't sit at 0 on the belt warp in.

Which doesn't make them dumb, it simply means they aren't running 20 different accounts and playing 40+ hours a month.

As for Dave, It doesn't reduce pay, since you have to calculate pay per account till you have covered your plex. And if you don't have enough time to mine 40 hours a week, with current plex prices.....

In Highsec, unboosted. 20 Mil an hour is a fair mining income. Again, market fluctuations, if your favourite ore is available, if you are using T2 Strips & T2 crystals etc.
So 14% of that is 2.8 Mil/Hour difference. Up to double for Null

Using a hauler account is another account you have to spread the income over. If you use 2 accounts, and one hauls, thats 50% income for each. So the more accounts the easier it is to add a hauler. But that hauler account has to save you more time/isk than the share it takes.

And by the time you get to that being worth it you should easily be into the Covetor/Hulk territory from fleet size, and therefore the Retriever/Proc comparison has gone out the window anyway.
This goes double for a combat ship 'guarding' you in highsec, since not only can it not haul so dilutes income automatically, but it could make more ratting than a mining ship mining normally can. Low sec you could have a combat fleet in system I guess running anoms or group running lvl 5's or something. But again, that takes you to a large scale group.

As for Null & WH, yes, tank matters there because you are likely to have a defence fleet forming before they even get there, and be in a large enough group. Which was why I didn't list Null & WH in tank not really mattering.

As for Dave, It doesn't reduce pay, since you have to calculate pay per account till you have covered your plex. And if you don't have enough time to mine 40 hours a week, with current plex prices.....

Why are you mining if you want to PLEX your accounts in the first place? That doesnt make any economic sense whatsoever unless you ARE running a multibox multiship single player fleet.

Not sure i agree with the skiff changes.

As someone who mines ice in 1 the extra low is nice but now there are pretty much no soft targets you can kill in 0.0 in a solo inty/ stealth bomber, heck even destroyer with the drone buffs and extra bay.

you mean, you might actually have to put some effort in to getting free kills? how abhorrent.

Not sure i agree with the skiff changes.

As someone who mines ice in 1 the extra low is nice but now there are pretty much no soft targets you can kill in 0.0 in a solo inty/ stealth bomber, heck even destroyer with the drone buffs and extra bay.

I think he means that it's damn near impossible to kill this ship with anything that can reasonably get past a gatecamp. Yeah you can wipe it out in a battleship, but that's not exactly a ship for roaming or hunting with.

so the ship designed to be the safest to mine in, is the safest to mine in. excellent.

2.8 Mil/hr = a brand new ship + 8 mil profit in 10 hours. If you are getting ganked more than once every 10 hours, reassess where you mine? That's the maths view. If you ascribe a value to ganker tears, that's totally different (I value failed ganker tears myself)

The Hauler alt is costing you lost income, also known as opportunity cost. If you could have made more money by using them to mine instead of haul, you have lost money. The same thing that makes minerals you mine not free when you build a ship with them.

And in high, there is no practical 'guarding' over any length of time. If you happen to know gankers/wt's are in the area, you may be able to do it, but you aren't going to stay millisecond aware for hours & hours on end. That's scientifically proven and why armies rotate sentries every 2 hours when they can if they need that level of alertness.

Low sec, go on, drop a 20 man mining fleet with a 10 man defence fleet and see how long it takes a roaming gang to land on you with a cyno of carriers. You will show up as a significant hot spot on the map in low sec with any sizeable group, and any non sizeable group will get eaten alive by a roam that comes across them.

As for PLEXing via mining only making sense if you are running large multibox fleets, that was my point.

The Hauler alt is costing you lost income, also known as opportunity cost. If you could have made more money by using them to mine instead of haul, you have lost money.

"safer than the other barges" is fine.

"close to invincible" is not. They swung this one too far.

"safer than the other barges" is fine.

"close to invincible" is not. They swung this one too far.

"safer than the other barges" is fine.

"close to invincible" is not. They swung this one too far.

I assume you'll lead the charge?

What are you talking about? Full tank mode I get over 100k ehp in a skiff. The extra low slot allows me to put another Power Diagnostic II raising it a whooping 3k ehp more. How does 3k ehp make it close to invisible?

Again, I thought we were talking about solo play, but you if you bring massively multiplayer multibox into it, then who cares? Your iskcome is so good screw tank and deploy 30 untanked Hulks. The only people who are really pissed by that are the other miners anyway.

CCP is doing something.... look at that Skiff!!!!

SKIFF

Mining Barge Bonus per level:
+5% Shield HP
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Exhumer Bonus per level:
+4% Shield resistances
-2% Strip Miner and Ice Harvester duration

Role Bonuses:
+150% Bonus to Strip Miner yield
-60% Ice Harvester duration and capacitor use
+50% Drone Damage and Hitpoints

Slot layout: 1H, 5M, 3L(+1);
Fittings: 50 PWG, 300(+30) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 5500 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 900 / 187.5s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200 / 1 / 10,000,000 / 13.86s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 100(+50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 30km(+7.5km) / 440(-220) / 6(+2)
Sensor strength: 14(+4)
Signature radius: 150(-50)
Ore Bay: 15000m3

I put in a alot of training in mining and industry and i cant use my skills ?
Kind of a waste eh ?
I use Hulks to mine in.
Buff them and i might come back to the game

Buff them and i might come back to the game

I use Hulks to mine in.
Buff them and i might come back to the game

I don't understand why people think its a good idea to mine in t2 mining barges in highsec. Seems like you are just asking to be ganked lol....

I'm talking about having bonused drones combined with the tank that it has.

Amazingly Skiffs & Macks use identical skills to Hulks.......

What im saying is i trained all these skills to be able to use the best mining ship in the game.
Now i cant do that right ?
So it's a waste of my training imo.

players that try to use their monthly subscription to blackmail ccp in to doing things, aren't really the kind of players we want anyway.

alternatively, if you put forward a coherent argument as to why the hulk needs more changes than those currently announced you may have a better chance at getting what you want.

Buff them and i might come back to the game

The only reason i can see for why ppl gank miners is griefing.
There is no other gain or is it ?

Why should a cruiser sized ship designed for tank and bonused for light & medium drones be soloable by a frigate?
It seems to me to be in a good spot. Of course if you speed tank the drones you get them to wig out in the MWD speed trap, and take no damage either way.

What im saying is i trained all these skills to be able to use the best mining ship in the game.

Unless you have an unusual fit, they bring enough to kill you in highsec no matter what your tank, so concord doesn't save you.
Solo mining in a tanked ship won't save you anywhere unless you have friends, so if you are talking actually solo, it's irrelevant what your tank is anywhere outside of high, or in high with a WT. Possible exception being the skiff if the drones actually work like people are EFT warrioring. However since drones wig out at speed, they probably won't. Anything else, you die in a fire, it just takes a little longer.

Also if we are talking solo, you don't have a hauler alt anyway. You have to multibox to use a hauler alt regardless, so could multibox it doing something else.
And if the hauler alt could make more money doing something else with no skills.... then you still loose money using it to haul. The only situation a hauler alt doesn't loose money is in the large fleet scenario.

So, back to the original point. There is plenty of reason to use a retriever if you mine and are looking for a low cost option. There is also some good reason to use a procurer. On Ice the Procurer is actually a very good choice for a cheap hard to gank ship. Since there it has a time bonus so can mine the last of an ice roid from under a retrievers lasers. So, the balance is fairly good between them, retriever slightly better on ore, proc better on ice once you account for tank, since ice miners also get ganked more due to being more concentrated by belts.

And I disagree. Lower Risk before Increased Isk means that less people will complain that Gankers are "ruining the game". Believe it or not, my view is informed by a wish for every playstyle to exist together. Players cannot blame their unwillingness to defend themselves as a reason that others play should be limited or removed. Which is really the point of the thread, OP's literal content not withstanding.

And what CCP is saying is that there is no 'best' mining ship.
They all have a purpose and are all relatively equal depending on what you want to do with them.
Welcome to Tiericide, where there is no obvious 'best' any more. It's a much better state of affairs.

Which doesn't mean that there isn't still plenty of reason to use a retriever. You can use a retriever without complaining that gankers are ruining the game.

And what CCP is saying is that there is no 'best' mining ship.
They all have a purpose and are all relatively equal depending on what you want to do with them.
Welcome to Tiericide, where there is no obvious 'best' any more. It's a much better state of affairs.

The only reason i can see for why ppl gank miners is griefing.
There is no other gain or is it ?

Because one miner contracting ganks on other miners in area is sooo impossible to imagine.

^^ This ^^

Uh.. no. Most large mining operations will ally themselves with ganking corps for both protection and help in eliminating your compitition. Believe me if there is shiny orca and hulk KM's to be had, they will be lining up for the opportunity. Then again that would actually mean you have to interact with other players....

And to be honest with you the major ganking corps/alliances like code. all they are trying to get you to do is interact with others and to actually play the game, not sit there for hours on end sitting there like a robot, mining AFK....



^^ This ^^

Well i dont play afk and i dont like others to tell me how to play a game i pay to play.

Confirming that some miners prefer to do the dirty work themselves (why pay extra for something I can do myself ).

Also confirming some miners have alts in CODE.

Well i dont play afk and i dont like others to tell me how to play a game i pay to play.

Makes sense that you should earn less in empire but even whit a Hulk in empire the income is very small imo.

Well i dont play afk and i dont like others to tell me how to play a game i pay to play.

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IT would be helpful for mission runners if the ORCA gankers used to keep swapping into new ships also went suspect.............

Your stupidity aside. I don't mine. I think being able to gank miners under present circumstances is ridiculous. Either the ships should be harder to kill, or the ramifications should be more severe for the ganker(s). Always said that. Always will say that. In fact, it's so egregious, one must assume the devs and CCP staff are involved in the ganking themselves.

I came here expecting a good idea.


I'm tired of you people that think all you have to do is take a ship up, but you all don't get it.
even if you take a skiff it will get ganked, there are gankers that use battle cruiser just to gank barges, hell I've even seen battleships used by people that want to prove the point that the lowest income makers should die.

...But the end reality is, the Retriever as it stands currently does mine a significant amount more. So it's not terrible CEO's telling people to use it...

I think being able to gank miners under present circumstances is ridiculous.

Either the ships should be harder to kill, or the ramifications should be more severe for the ganker(s).

Your stupidity aside. I don't mine. I think being able to gank miners under present circumstances is ridiculous. Either the ships should be harder to kill, or the ramifications should be more severe for the ganker(s). Always said that. Always will say that.

In fact, it's so egregious, one must assume the devs and CCP staff are involved in the ganking themselves.

Eve is a game of choices, you can choose to mine in a ship that's hard to kill at the cost of a little yield, such as a Skiff or Procurer, or you can choose to mine in a ship that maximises yield, at the cost of being MUCH MUCH easier to kill. .

I fixed your post for you.

I fixed your post for you.

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