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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ahost Gceo wrote:Do it, for the love of all that is Bob.
Removing this information will actually cause people who want to find pew to get off their asses and do some regular scouting, which will actually create more confrontation simply because there are people flying about looking for each other.
It's not going to revolutionize wh combat dynamics but it is an improvement. Literally having no idea how that data is used.
The kill data is meaningless if you are not already out and flying around and looking for things to find and kill. Knowing that kills happened in a system is useless unless you've already mapped a route to it.
So no, this doesn't change the need to scout with regard to jumping into literally dozens of systems looking for things. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? not remotely germane to this discussion Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.
So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Querns wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? not remotely germane to this discussion Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies. So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane. You're comparing apples and oranges, is what he's saying. Nullsec game mechanics aren't really relevant to a discussion about wormhole mechanics. Incorrect. His statement was specific to 'Intel gathering' and the requirement that it should be an involved and active process.
Goose....say hello to the gander. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies.
So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane. Of course you'll try to derail this thread by talking about something that does not exist in w-space in a thread about a change to w-space mechanics. If you want to talk about local, go start another thread about local, or post in one of the millions of existing threads about local. Local in nullsec has absolute fuckall to do with this discussion. The irony of wormholers complaining about local being effortless intel when they're demanding that CCP leave another form of effortless intel intact because it actually benefits them is golden Yes because as I said earlier this data is very useful without ever leaving your home system to even open those other connections where this data might be relevant......
/s
This is trend worthy data only that gains relevance once a scout or scouts has been in the system. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. It actually happens quite often. You should know more about your coalition members. Some have even written tools (log even) that broadcast Intel on local pilot movements with no other effort than some pilot online sitting in a station with a client reading the local list.
For real. Fair for all right? Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Querns wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle? Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.
This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face.
Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle? Did you just seriously compare API automation with putting physical characters in systems and doing actual scouting? Using a bot to read local is hardly actual scouting. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 20:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Saavik Ambraelle wrote:So what this is essentially about is making wormhole space safer for carebears. Basically.... Yes. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 20:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Querns wrote:Gnaw LF wrote:Querns wrote: This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.
For someone who spent half the thread educating others on the proper methods of presenting their arguments you yourself are not so educated. This API data is in fact PUBLIC and READILY available. Case in point, here it is on Dotlan: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J114443http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J153802http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J133011So EVERYONE has access to the data. Now the question is, is it useful for non-hunters? Maybe not, but then again we have ship scanners and other tools IN THE GAME that provide intel gathering. Just because it is not useful to one group of players does not make it useless to others. Ships killed per 24 hours is not necessarily indicative of whether or not the chain of wormholes contains a ravening band of marauders. (read: not the "marauder" T2 battleship.) By the admission of several posters in the thread, most of wormhole PvP happens due to rolling holes and attacking in the home systems of the PvE groups, not by inciting fights in the home system of the marauders. You can't use the API to divine where these home systems are due to this, and a PvE group is highly disincentivized from rolling their own holes to look for the marauders. The advantage remains with the marauders, exclusively. We routinely fight when we roll into another known wh groups home system. Or when we find them in chain. However RNG is RNG and we can't rely on lady luck always providing us a welcome mat into other known/established PvP groups. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
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Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
x-posting from previous thread:
Alundil wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:So lets answer a few questions: Bloemkoolsaus wrote: Our wormhole mapper software relies on this information to determine the current status of the systems we are connected to. I would very much like to keep this information in the API as the information it provides is essential for us.
Your software relying on it is basically why we are doing this. This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not. CCP by design specifically did not include a map of WH space, and we specifically did not include this information in the client. Earlier we removed jumps for WH systems from the API. Removing this was something that should have been done then. Then by all means place 'your money where your mouth is' and break all api based market and industrial and PI tools under the same logic since that they confer great advantage for those with the ability to use them over those without said ability. It is exactly the same thing.
And then wait for the overwhelming rage from .01 marketeers and industrialists who rely on oog 3rd Party tools in order to succeed. Or the those doing the null market seeding required to live out there and/or stage for battle. All of it is done with oog 3rd Party tools because either the ingame functionality offered by the client is terrible or not even there.
Cache scraping for industry purposes is, at the very least, as damaging to your supposed "ideal" game (where no one uses anything that the client doesn't provide directly) as delayed kill info via api is. Yet in those threads (iirc) it was stated that CCPs stance on tools that offer QOL were acceptable (mainly because some devs know that they are necessary due to nothing other than EVE itself).
It seems as if w-space (the best balanced place in EVE) has been getting shat on steadily since Odyssey and it's not appreciated.
The CSM has struggled to represent wormhole players since its inception and the changes placed upon us are perfect evidence to that fact. You (plural non-specific) do not take our thoughts into consideration and pay lip service to our critiques and suggestions time and again because it's not what "you" (plural non-specific) have already decided you are going to do.
That is how our wh --> csm/cpp interactions appear to proceed. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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489
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Andski wrote:it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents The most honest post in this entire thread. I'd give you a cookie, or something, but you're goonswarm and my mum told me not to give you any sweets until you slim it up a bit Which is exactly why I, and others, literally laugh out loud when the comment is "...we (upper echelon of GSF leadership) are "in it" for the betterment of the game itself..."
Because everyone knows the mantra "our enjoyment is to ruin others' enjoyment"
Literally
L. O. L.
Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:your entire garbage post does not distinguish between "data not provided by the client ever" and "data that people prefer to have provided out of game for analysis by a third party tool" the first is what is being eliminated, the second is what the api is for
In some of the original discussion in the other thread, some of CCP Foxfour's reasoning was basically Quote:This is information that you guys using software outside the game get a huge advantage over those who do not
in true CCP PR fashion - the yardstick of "why we want to make a change" continually moves once announced because they literally have no idea about how to propose changes to a customer group without stepping all over their ..... lips.
So no - it's not garbage in the context of the original poorly thought-out keyboard-mashing attempt to find some justification of why this change is a "good" change. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Andski wrote:"x number of NPCs have died in this system in the last hour/24 hours" is pretty good ******* intel that you can get in w-space without even getting into the system Yet if you've not actually been in that system (i.e. scouting it out) that info quite literally IS useless because you have no way of knowing that you'll hit that system. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Which is exactly why I, and others, literally laugh out loud when the comment is "...we (upper echelon of GSF leadership) are "in it" for the betterment of the game itself..."
Because everyone knows the mantra "our enjoyment is to ruin others' enjoyment"
Literally
L. O. L.
so clearly we have a hidden agenda that we're discussing in illuminati, sneering about how we're pulling the wool over everyone's heads please tell us your crackpot theory about our hidden agenda
Perhaps you should try and not be insulting in a discussion thread. It's no secret that this is, and has been the MO for SA/GSF since it's inception. Name calling doesn't change that pretty well documented fact. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
Rolled Out
490
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Posted - 2014.05.07 06:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote: If you roll into a system and the locals immediately spot you and everyone re-ships into a small PvP gang to meet you at the door, just go ahead and hide in your POS because you weren't looking for a fun and exciting fight anyways, just some easy fluff to pad your killboard.
What a joke - because yes you're absolutely spot on. No one in w-space wants PvP fights
**love the changing narrative of "bug fix" I'm seeing now** Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
Rolled Out
499
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Posted - 2014.05.07 20:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Bohneik Itohn wrote:Def Monk wrote: There is. I was quite fond of DaOpa's idea to use their new player structure system to make an item that gathers data like this while it's anchored in a system. I chimed in that it should be combat probe findable, but not d-scanable.
I like this idea, and would agree to a whole slew of espionage deployables that encourage the use of combat probes. I only get to dust mine off about twice a week. I'd also agree with more probing (specifically combats). But given the last 2 expansions CCP is decidedly moving away from that removing things that require probes of any sort.
But having the ability to drop Intel gathering tools in target systems would be a welcome addition ( would go a lot better than the ESS and mobile scan inhibitor junk foisted on players). Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
Rolled Out
505
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Posted - 2014.05.12 17:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Hello again,
I hope you all had a wonderful weekend. I said that the game design department would have another review of this proposal here on Monday, and that meeting has come and gone.
The conclusions of the meeting, and having talked to the CSM9, is that we WILL be removing WHs from the kills endpoint. This means that NPC, pod, and ship kill counts for WH systems will no longer be available from the EVE API.
This is a change that should hopefully ship with Kronos.
We do appreciate all of the feedback provided on this topic as we work on the goal of creating a balanced hunter/hunted environment.
In other words tip the balance further in favor of the 'hunted' for now since it was already difficult to catch them.... Amirite?
A feedback thread was created (though it appears pretty obvious that the decision had already been made). So this change happens in Kronos. At what point is there any work done about actually balancing between the 'hunters and the hunted'? As this change places that even further out of balance than it currently is. Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
Rolled Out
505
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Posted - 2014.05.12 18:25:00 -
[19] - Quote
Captain StringfellowHawk wrote:
Stop Being a Bad PVPer, Use Intel, Use cloaky Ships, Plenty of ways to get kills in a WH without having to set Logon Traps or be an all around Terrible PVPer. Go back to the days BEFORE all the Third Party apps did the work for you and rise above being a Pubbie level PVPer. It's oh so amazing how the carebears hold the advantage and get more kills in WH space while the oh so Elite WH PVP corps fill the tear jars being delivered to BOB.
I don't do logon traps (nor does my corp). I've been in wh-space since Apocrypha dropped. I, and others, simply disagree with the changes because there is currently no "balance" between hunter/hunted as has been pointed out numerous times.
Perhaps stop being an insulting prick and realize that a disagreement isn't "tears" regardless of what you want the narrative to be.
Disagreement <-- Not tears "....unsubbing 'x' accounts over blah blah blah" <-- Tears
L2reason Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
Alundil
Rolled Out
505
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Posted - 2014.05.12 19:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Meytal wrote:Thank you for allowing this discussion and pretending to listen to our concerns. In the end, even though you chose to do what you were already planning to do anyway, we at least were able to amuse ourselves with ideas to allow a more active approach to obtaining this information.
Thanks again!
Perhaps this might help in future (hopefully not far distant) when CCP gets around to looking at "balance" System Occupancy Surveillance Clone mechanics enchancements Deep Space Probe Revival |
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