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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
This change promotes risk in wormhole space by removing the ability for entrenched wormhole dwellers to quickly curate the connections to their wormhole by analyzing historical data. Now, the curation of these connections must be done manually, like the greater majority of wormhole activities, in line with the design goal of the space. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:
This is data that is available via the API but not in the client in any way.
How many examples of data being available in the API exist and why aren't you fixing all of them at the same time? CCP FoxFour wrote: That is the core reason for this change, there are some other smaller ones but that is the big one. We are of course open to discussing how this information should be available in the client and how we reconcile that available knowledge with the goal that wormhole space should be mysterious and unknown. If this brought into the client we would of course be willing to bring it back to the API as well.
You should not remove something from the API without first deciding if it will be available in the client in the future. Decided that first, and then decide how to handle the API. Not before. Also, you have a strange way of iterating on things if all you are going to do is constantly remove features WH people use all the time. Ah, yes, this argument again -- all changes must be delayed until every single niggling discrepancy even tangentially related to the proposed change are also handled.
How many times must we see this demonstrably incorrect thinking before it gets relegated to the garbage can where it belongs? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.
What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case. The game design choice is pretty clear -- "the API should not expose information that is unavailable in the client."
The track record for enforcement of this choice is in no way indicative of whether it SHOULD be enforced. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity. Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
497
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:52:00 -
[5] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Querns wrote:This change promotes risk in wormhole space by removing the ability for entrenched wormhole dwellers to quickly curate the connections to their wormhole by analyzing historical data. Now, the curation of these connections must be done manually, like the greater majority of wormhole activities, in line with the design goal of the space. Actually this will just play to the strengths of the entrenched wormhole dwellers, because most of us have our own databases of who lives where and what they like doing. These databases were created manually, by direct observation, by real people. I have no problem with the existence of such things because of this. If you use your manually curated information to make decisions on how to best safeguard your assets or maraud the assets of others, in the context of wormhole space, more power to you. You deserve the benefits.
I'm against this information being available, in the context of wormhole space, to be curated by software for every single system in wormhole space. It's too easy. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Querns wrote:Aryth wrote:Arguments to delay it pending a game design decision though I think have a lot of validity. Considering that the eve game design team was consulted prior to posting publicly about the change, I'd say the delay is unwarranted. It doesn't sound like they asked them about a new deployable to put this behavior within the game. Just a "Hey, you guys think this should go too?" If CCP wants this information to be available in the client, they can do so. It cannot come at the expense of the design goals of the API, however.
Furthermore, any in-game deployable would be necessarily limited in its scope to gather the required intel. The API exposes the intel for all systems, all the time, to be downloaded, stored, and curated by software. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
Valterra Craven wrote:Querns wrote:Valterra Craven wrote:I'm not saying it should be delayed until all descrepencies are handled. I'm saying it should be delayed until game design makes their choice.
What I am saying is that since they are now enforcing a rule that wasn't previously that it should be enforced EVENLY and research should be undertaken to ensure that is the case. The game design choice is pretty clear -- "the API should not expose information that is unavailable in the client." The track record for enforcement of this choice is in no way indicative of whether it SHOULD be enforced. And I'm not saying that's something I inherently disagree with. It just seems oddly and unevenly enforced. I wonder if you guys would feel just as supportive about a change that would remove you ability to look over Chaos changes and thus removed your ability to speculate on the market so much? (yes I understand that its not api data, but this is essentially about players having access to data not available in the the client...) I'm saying that picking and choosing which things to enforce this rule on seems questionable. I'm absolutely for the removal of the ability to analyze Chaos diffs. Make it happen yesterday. Sure, I've benefited from it in the past, but it's obviously not intended and represents an unfair advantage for those "in the know." This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 16:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:Aside from the information in question here, the absolute co-ordinates for celestials and systems, which allow third party applications to calculate jump ranges of capitals isn't available in client but is available in the API. Guess you'll be taking out that information the same day you remove the NPC kill information right?
This is not correct; the API does not expose the absolute coordinates for celestials and systems. This information is provided by the Static Data Export (SDE). The SDE is not necessarily beholden to the same standards as the API, as it only provides static data. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
RudinV wrote:can some1 explain me why goons are talking about wh stuff? no offense guys, but we dont discuss nulls carebearing here Who says we don't have experience with wormhole stuff? Who says we aren't in your alliance, or in your corporation?
This is an appeal to non-authorities and is not particularly relevant. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
iLLeLogicaL wrote:Querns wrote:AutumnWind1983 wrote:Aside from the information in question here, the absolute co-ordinates for celestials and systems, which allow third party applications to calculate jump ranges of capitals isn't available in client but is available in the API. Guess you'll be taking out that information the same day you remove the NPC kill information right?
This is not correct; the API does not expose the absolute coordinates for celestials and systems. This information is provided by the Static Data Export (SDE). The SDE is not necessarily beholden to the same standards as the API, as it only provides static data. Yeah but it's not part of the ingame client and that's really the issue here, is it not? It is the issue; we are talking about the information exposed via the API. Capital geography information is exposed via the SDE. These are two different things.
Feel free to provide another example of information exposed via the API that is not available in the client. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:08:00 -
[11] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Querns wrote: It is the issue; we are talking about the information exposed via the API. Capital geography information is exposed via the SDE. These are two different things.
Feel free to provide another example of information exposed via the API that is not available in the client.
Well, if we are going for an appeal to mystery and (implicitly) lore, then the SDE has no place in the game either. If CCP would like to remove the SDE, they're fully within their rights to do so.
However, given that I personally have copies of the SDE going back about as far as I've been playing eve, and that others have copies going back even further, I think the cat's out of the bag on that one. It's not like capital geography changes all that much. Essentially, this is another false equivalency. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Agonising Ecstacy wrote:KSpace NPC Kill data in the client/API should be removed too. Same reason as you shouldn't display the amount of ore mined in a system in the API/client, or the number of (super)capitals being built.
The funny thing here is that they will most likely expose this information about k-space systems in the near future, via the API. Clues already exist as to how this information will be exposed, available to the clever forums reader. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
Notmo wrote:I like how in the 4 pages of this thread, and about 10 pages of the other thread, the only advocates of this change being carried out are generally by people who don't live in wormholes.
From what I read, the majority of people who live in wormhole space, and use this data have appealed for CCP to not put this change in place, and of those people, a very large proportion of the bigger WH entities and a good number of the smaller ones are represented.
You've [CCP] found some thing in your API that you hadn't considered and now want to essentially "hide" your mistake by eliminating it completely. All of the Dev posts so far haven't actually stated any reasons other than "it shouldn't have been there in the first place"., which in my opinion (and apparently in the opinion of a pretty big chunk of the WH community) isn't a very good reason to make a change. At least when other changes are made, we get more reasons than "it wasn't meant to be there in the first place, sorry about that".
So, just because everyone agrees that something should or shouldn't happen, it becomes valid?
This is an argumentum ad populum. The number of voices does not lend credence to their opinion. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Harry Sullivan wrote:But to hell with you if you even mention that we could arrange fights in between our groups for the sake of having good fights and PvP in WH space if CCP removes the data that enables us to have "arranged fights" in the first place.
How does removing NPC kills/hr data from the API somehow preclude two wormhole corporations / alliances from having arranged fights? Wormhole connection maps are curated manually; just wait until the chains connect, then duke it out in an e-honorable fashion as much as you like. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Laurici wrote:I'm still curious why this wasn't even discussed at the wormhole roundtables that happened at most 5 days ago where significant player feedback could have been sought.
Can you give us any detail on WHY design don't want us to have access to this other than "because". As Mike azariah puts it "what's the design goal". What play are you trying to create? How will you ensure that this doesn't lead to run away farming because nobody fears a logon trap? Do you honestly think that removing the api information will create more gameplay? If so, what gameplay? Most likely, it was brought to their attention after the roundtables had occurred, perhaps during a pub crawl or other social event. Or, perhaps, it was just reading the forums. Does it matter? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:Max Kolonko wrote:CCP FoxFour wrote:
The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.
Just to be clear, this is only for NPC kills and not ship/pod kills? Well we would remove that but you can just go and get it from zKill or something and be about 96% accurate anyways. This also makes sense considering that, during fanfest, talk was made about making ALL kills be publicly exposed via the API.
Though, in that case, I could see simply turning off the "number of kills" endpoint strictly for the purposes of reducing server load, considering that players all but guaranteed to write software to curate the data and provide those kind of statistics anyways. There wouldn't be much point in maintaining an endpoint that serves duplicate data in that case. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Laurici wrote:Querns wrote:Laurici wrote:I'm still curious why this wasn't even discussed at the wormhole roundtables that happened at most 5 days ago where significant player feedback could have been sought.
Can you give us any detail on WHY design don't want us to have access to this other than "because". As Mike azariah puts it "what's the design goal". What play are you trying to create? How will you ensure that this doesn't lead to run away farming because nobody fears a logon trap? Do you honestly think that removing the api information will create more gameplay? If so, what gameplay? Most likely, it was brought to their attention after the roundtables had occurred, perhaps during a pub crawl or other social event. Or, perhaps, it was just reading the forums. Does it matter? This is not a player idea, it's a design idea. And unless the design idea has gone from idea to discussed idea to proposed idea in 31 hours, it's information they chose not share with the engaged playerbase. Sure, but talking shop and general fraternization has the ability to expose these sorts of weaknesses.
Here's a vignette: a developer overhears a group of players at a bar discussing their new software. While eavesdropping, he or she learns that their tool uses the NPC kills API endpoint to curate their wormhole map and provide a determination of what systems to concentrate forces at. Said developer takes an internal catalogue of the client's capabilities, determines that there's a discrepancy, and then submits a change request to remove that ability. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 17:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
To be clear here, I'm not necessarily arguing against the ability for wormhole dwellers to more efficiently collect intelligence data about their surroundings. I am, however, against this data being collected over the whole of wormhole space, automatically, at extremely low cost. Any changes that aid the ability for hunter/killers in wormhole space to gather information MUST be constrained to only work on the systems that they can physically reach, or otherwise must have some sort of human component that limits their effectiveness in such a matter. Providing perfect information about all of wormhole space is clearly broken and simply incentivizes rolling holes until ham comes out. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
Blodhgarm Dethahal wrote:Better make this so in K-Space as well... that information is not publicly available in client either you know...
If you go through with it of course... Unfortunately for you, it DOES exist. Go in-game, open up your star map. Open the map settings, go to Statistics > pirate and police ships killed. Bam, there's your data.
Since there is no star map for wormhole space, this information is not available. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:31:00 -
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Alundil wrote:Ahost Gceo wrote:Do it, for the love of all that is Bob.
Removing this information will actually cause people who want to find pew to get off their asses and do some regular scouting, which will actually create more confrontation simply because there are people flying about looking for each other.
It's not going to revolutionize wh combat dynamics but it is an improvement. Literally having no idea how that data is used. The kill data is meaningless if you are not already out and flying around and looking for things to find and kill. Knowing that kills happened in a system is useless unless you've already mapped a route to it. So no, this doesn't change the need to scout with regard to jumping into literally dozens of systems looking for things. Sure, but it does remove the need to actually be in the system to observe behavior and make a manual determination of whether the hole should be kept or just rolled. All that needs to be done, today, is to check the system against NPCs killed over time, determine when the time zone of activity is, and log off until then. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:34:00 -
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Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:Alundil wrote:Andski wrote:This is a good change. Intelligence gathering should be made an involved, active process wherever possible. Like local amirite? not remotely germane to this discussion Of course you would say so given that this is the most free form of effortless Intel available anywhere in game. One that your alliance and coalition abuses to no end to avoid the associated risks attached to the alleged rewards of 00 anomalies. So in reply to a comment about making Intel gathering'active and involved' it is perfectly germane. You're comparing apples and oranges, is what he's saying. Nullsec game mechanics aren't really relevant to a discussion about wormhole mechanics. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:55:00 -
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Two step wrote: And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.
All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.
People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why.
NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 18:56:00 -
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Napoleon Aldent wrote:Andski wrote:Napoleon Aldent wrote:Confirming that intel gathering by putting a bot with local open in a Twitch feed is more involved than looking at Dotlan. Even if this did happen on a regular basis (it doesn't) it requires somebody to actually set up in the system being monitored. Please... I did my time in CFC leadership. During ops in regions around Venal, FCs wanted 23/7 Twitch coverage of the 6NJ and K3J undocks with local visible so they could monitor BL and 401k activity. Whether you are doing it during peacetime right now or not, doesn't matter. You do it and you abuse it just like every other game mechanic in Eve. The real question here is, why are you and the other Goon posters so vested in a change which doesn't effect you at all. What is your motive for being here. Certainly you don't have any compassion or concern for those living in wormholes - especially the farmers who stand to benefit. So what's your angle? Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:40:00 -
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Two step wrote:Querns wrote:Two step wrote: And as I said, if the "place of unknowns" part was really true, I would be OK with removing the API. The issue is that in fact it is very, very known exactly how to kill Sleepers, which is what is creating the current farming problem.
All I am asking for is you to fix both problems at the same time. Make farming harder and then you can make it harder to find farmers.
People doing PvE in wormholes is a problem? I'd like to hear why. NOTE: The dilution of your ability to make money in a wormhole because others are doing it is a very poor reason. I'm sorry, but perhaps you are not aware that the only fing reason to do PVE in this game is to make money. Certainly my arguments about why people shouldn't be able to do nearly risk-free PVE are going to involve money. I will try to use little words, since you seem to be not getting it. People doing PVE with little risk is bad. Wormholes are big risk, big rewards. You are supposed to have all your ships and assets at risk to be able to make ISK from C5/6 sites. Farmers don't do this. If their POS gets popped, they don't care, and just wait a week to log in. The farming doesn't just hurt the big groups, in fact it hurts us far less. 95% or so of our income is from the blue books from Sleepers. The little guys in C1-3 space are the ones hurt the most by this, because now their Sleeper salvage is just about worthless. Ah, yes, we've managed to swing it around from a "my personal isk faucet is being threatened" argument to yet ANOTHER variation on the "fix every related niggling, tangential, real or perceived flaw with the game before moving forward with the part of the change which I personally dislike" argument.
Did they give out a handbook on suggested eve-o arguments that got lost on its way to my mailbox or something? This is starting to get old.
The whole risk/reward thing related to PvP activity is pretty funny at its core, really. There's this giant tower of assumptions that gets erected every time someone invokes this particular argument, primarily revolving around the concept that both parties are perfect, rational actors, and that every single PvP scenario plays out exactly the same because of this. You see it in a lot of places; certainly when talking about nullsec, but apparently in wormhole space as well. What doesn't get said is that in the overwhelming majority of actual PvP actions, neither party is perfect or rational. I'm guilty of it several times; I've lost lots of ships, including capitals, due to making stupid mistakes. I've also lost a lot of opportunities to kill a ship due to my own incompetence.
The point here is that PvP can't be boiled down to a simple set of vignettes. Sure, changes in gameplay can incentivize or disincentivize certain patterns, but you can't just make a blanket statement about risk and reward when PvP is involved like this. There's not enough room to account for the killer instinct or the shrewdness of the actors involved when you're making up little vignettes like this. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:41:00 -
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Napoleon Aldent wrote:Querns wrote: Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.
I was looking for a good signature. Thanks for providing one which will hopefully bring joy and laughter to everyone who sees it. It's funny because it's true. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:49:00 -
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Gulnara Amren wrote:This aspect of WH space is not broken. You do not need to fix it. No one is getting a massive advantage- the tools are available to everyone, and anyone who spends a few days living in WH space will know about them.
Further, API kill data is a content generator. It does not hurt the game, it enhances it. While it may not be *by design* (oh, the Holy Design!), so effin what? It's worked out well.
There's a ton of things that can be done to improve WH space. This is not one of them. This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:50:00 -
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Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:...actually doesn't say anything There's some goofiness going on with the forums software right now; lots of posts are getting eaten. You can see a couple of empty quotes in this thread. One happened to me about 10 minutes ago. I think the forums are posting drafts of posts instead of the actual, completed post. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:55:00 -
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Alundil wrote:Querns wrote: Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.
This is actually pretty laughable. I know you didn't write that with a straight face. I did. You can see evidence of this in the Jump Fuel increase thread; I unequivocally argued for the changes instead of against, despite the fact that I make money primarily in Science and Industry in 0.0 and, as such, rely on jump freighters to shuttle materials and finished goods to and from market. The changes represent a direct increase in costs that I endure, and yet, I argued for them, because they were good for game balance.
See also: the Technetium nerf. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 19:58:00 -
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Gnaw LF wrote:Querns wrote: Sure, but it does remove the need to actually be in the system to observe behavior and make a manual determination of whether the hole should be kept or just rolled. All that needs to be done, today, is to check the system against NPCs killed over time, determine when the time zone of activity is, and log off until then.
Are you suggesting that in order to pull off an equivalent gank to log off trap w-space groups need to spend days or weeks on scouting. Because that is what is being discussed here. Yes, right now the data is cheap and easily attainable. However without the data you would run into the following scenario: 1) Open into system, find a dozen active towers in the system 2) Leave a scout, looking at the system for at LEAST 23 hours 3) If you are lucky the residents will bear within the 23 hours of your arrival, unlucky? Spend another unknown amount of time scouting the system 4) Do the residents run their sleeper sites at the same time on other days? Spend addition unknown amount of hours trying to determine their habits and patterns 5) Finally, we have something resembling the old API data, bring in capital ships and log them off 6) Spend an unknown amount of hours trying to finally trap the locals, who can be spooked by just about anything. Yeah, this will require an excessive amount of work to pull off. While yes, I agree, it will work well with Lore of the game. W-space is unknown and it takes time to scout and so on, HOWEVER we are not playing this game for lore. We are here to make lore and to do that a certain amount of data is required, if that data goes against design principles and game lore then **** those designs and lore. This is entire thing is about conflict, content,. human beings actually running into other human beings and not just a bunch of red crosses. Yes, w-space should be unknown and dangerous but it should not be isolated.
If it's too much work, then don't do logoff traps. Seems pretty simple to me.
Wormhole dwellers go on and on about how much work they have to do in order to generate content and how wormhole space lacks immediate Local chat. I would think that you would thrive in such an environment on the merit that it gives you yet another thing to lord over any nullsec dwellers that might waddle by. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.05.06 20:01:00 -
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John Caldr wrote:Querns wrote: This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.
"Groups only looking for PvE" should stay in hisec and avoid dangerous wormhole space that contains PVP I disagree. This is more of those weird social norms to which wormhole dwellers subscribe bleeding into objective game balance discussion. Sure, wormhole space is Shoot To Kill space, with no server-generated consequence for the action (aside from some logoff timers,) but that does not somehow necessitate that the game to cater to either side. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 20:07:00 -
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Gnaw LF wrote:Querns wrote: This data is a massive advantage to those groups who wish to hunt people in wormhole space. Groups only looking for PvE or who lack sufficient PvP force in wormhole space don't have an API for determining whether or not the connections to their wormhole contain a group of people looking to maraud over their stuff. Removing it levels the playing field between these groups.
For someone who spent half the thread educating others on the proper methods of presenting their arguments you yourself are not so educated. This API data is in fact PUBLIC and READILY available. Case in point, here it is on Dotlan: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J114443http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J153802http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/J133011So EVERYONE has access to the data. Now the question is, is it useful for non-hunters? Maybe not, but then again we have ship scanners and other tools IN THE GAME that provide intel gathering. Just because it is not useful to one group of players does not make it useless to others. Ships killed per 24 hours is not necessarily indicative of whether or not the chain of wormholes contains a ravening band of marauders. (read: not the "marauder" T2 battleship.) By the admission of several posters in the thread, most of wormhole PvP happens due to rolling holes and attacking in the home systems of the PvE groups, not by inciting fights in the home system of the marauders. You can't use the API to divine where these home systems are due to this, and a PvE group is highly disincentivized from rolling their own holes to look for the marauders.
The advantage remains with the marauders, exclusively. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 20:12:00 -
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John Caldr wrote:You see, you cant have cake and eat it too. I'm not sure to what you refer. You'll have to be more specific. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 20:40:00 -
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Andski wrote:wormhole stabilizers will solve this problem Ideally, this will be represented by two devices on either side of the wormhole, holding it open. One of the sides will have a ring on it, to indicate the polarity of the device. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 20:49:00 -
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Nooonnnnnoooo notme wrote:oh, come on... you guys and your goat-Z wormhole stabilizer idea? Right now, in this thread?? Well, when the smell fits... This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:10:00 -
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Two step wrote: Firstly, I am not sure where you are seeing any change in my message. I have been pretty consistent. I am against this change because it makes it harder to kill people farming in high class wormholes. People farming in those holes are in general bad for w-space. They reduce profit for all, but mostly for lower class wormholes. They don't provide PVP content, just the rare gank.
So, can we shorten this and say that you think there should be a minimum profit potential for simply existing in wormhole space, presumably in accordance with whatever social norms you've set up? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:29:00 -
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G0hme wrote:Two step wrote: Capital Escalation You were at the roundtable at FF13, weren't you? Greyscale did state that capital escalation are horrible and not anywhere near where he wanted them to be. They were never intended to be run the way Wspace community runs them, so hopefully we will see that change eventually. But indeed, C5/C6 should be a lot harder. With Kspace NPCs receiving Sleeper AI, they are too similar to offer Wspace any uniqueness at all. Dreads are in my opinion, the cancer of wspace. Don't get me wrong I love capital warfare, but Dreads are an uncontrolled limitless force multiplier in a mass limited environment. Best shown in the resident strongholds of some of the larger Wspace entities. Carriers aswell, but way more limited as you eventually reach a threshold of where the amount of reps far exceeds what is required and is therefore not as powerful as the powerprojection of dreads. Ofcource I realize it would never happen, but a rejuvenated Wspace would possibly need atleast Dreads removed completely, or rendered useless. Make sleepers immune to webs. There, I solved capital escalations. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 21:58:00 -
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Daimian Mercer wrote:Either remove ALL API end-points for system activity for every system in EVE or add a way to see this data for all systems in EVE client.
So this change in its current form ... I vote NO
Has someone created a poll yet? I guess you didn't read the thread, or even the dev responses.
All the map data exposed via the API for k-space systems is available in the client. Thus, it's eligible for the API. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:20:00 -
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Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasted on behalf of our Napoleon Aldent from the other thread that got locked.
Nullsec residents are provided with a static database dump containing absolute coordinates for systems in Eve which allows third party applications to calculate the light years between these systems. This is also information that is not readily available inside the client, and has also been used to develop third party applications which are critical to everyday life in null-sec (e.g. GARPA). By being able to calculate jump ranges in advance - outside of the client - cap pilots and their FCs are able to make judgement calls and react faster than they would normally be able to otherwise.
Fundamentally, this is no different than having NPC kills available via the API. It provides an indirect method of promoting content generation via our mappers the way tools like GARPA promote content in null-sec. It gives us intel on a system allowing us to make judgement calls before we fully scout a system. Neither light year calculations nor WH NPC kill activity are available inside the client, yet we have thriving third party apps that rely on both of these to facilitate the daily operations of their users.
If you're going to start holding yourselves to a standard in which third party applications cannot provide more information than what is available inside the client, then I challenge you to hold null-sec to the same standard you are asking wormhole space to be held to. What you are proposing sets our community back a significant amount without providing a rational justification for doing so, and I think you would see the same reaction from null-sec residents if they understood the potential implications of this "equality doctrine" you wish to enforce. Unfortunately for you, the Static Data Export is not beholden to the same standards as the API. The API is the only one of these two that is required to only expose information that is also available in the client.
Also, even if they did acquiesce to your request, it's not like it would change anything -- the cat is already out of the bag, in the context of capital geography. It doesn't change very much. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:28:00 -
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Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasting my post from the other thread 3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:41:00 -
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Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pasting my post from the other thread 3 - If this change does go through it will encourage even more farmers within the higher end holes who will give nothing back to the community What exactly does "giving back to the community" entail in the context of wormhole space? I can explain what not giving back to the community is. Set up small POS only, move in 2 carriers and 2 dreads. Live out of the carriers and farm constantly logging off as soon as a new signature spawns from the instant signature generator. Destroying the POS achieves nothing as the people who use this mechanic can essentially have their risk free PVE I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole? This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:48:00 -
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Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote: I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?
No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space. Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun: This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:50:00 -
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Aiwha wrote:If removing NPC kill data is bad for finding PvP, I suggest we bring back Jump data for WH's. It makes just as much sense and is equally effective for intel gathering. Not an option -- this information is unavailable in the eve client. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 22:55:00 -
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Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote: I still don't follow. Why is this bad? Do you feel entitled to PvP in a wormhole?
No I don't feel entitled to PvP. I do feel entitled to tools that have been available to me for the years I have been within WH space. Looks like it's time to disabuse yourself of this entitlement. :sun: Please tell me more about your experience within WH space Ah, yes, argument from authority. Please, continue to insinuate from my alliance name my experiences in Eve: Online. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:02:00 -
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Sith1s Spectre wrote:Querns wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote: Please tell me more about your experience within WH space
Ah, yes, argument from authority. Please, continue to insinuate from my alliance name my experiences in Eve: Online. And yet you don't answer the question... kinda proves my point Not really. Gee, why wouldn't I want to supply my PvP pilot names? It's almost like that breaches opsec. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:23:00 -
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Alundil wrote:Bohneik Itohn wrote:Andski wrote:it's only good game design when the mechanics are inclined in my favor and against my opponents The most honest post in this entire thread. I'd give you a cookie, or something, but you're goonswarm and my mum told me not to give you any sweets until you slim it up a bit Which is exactly why I, and others, literally laugh out loud when the comment is "...we (upper echelon of GSF leadership) are "in it" for the betterment of the game itself..." Because everyone knows the mantra "our enjoyment is to ruin others' enjoyment" Literally L. O. L. This would be true, except we have this curious property of always being right. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:27:00 -
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Jezza McWaffle wrote:I seriousily don't get this raving about 'instant perfect intel'. You know what NPC shows us? Activity. Yep thats it, theres no magic button which allows us to see what ships are in system, where the POS's are and stront levels etc. It helps us Wormholers effectively analyze a chain and think if we will get any content from this chain, don't forget we have already scanned the system in detail.
"Hmmmm there are no kill recorded in the past 3 days in this chain apart from in one system but they look like they are AU TZ compared to our EU TZ, lets roll and find something else"
Thats what being able to see NPC AND PvP kills are used for. Its also the reason why we would be fine if they just delayed the API time to 3 hours, 6 hours whatever. As its the history not current status of the system that interests us (in the majority of cases). Delaying the API would not solve the problem. The API data is used to build a heuristic, not to provide point-in-time activity updates.
Building these heuristics manually is perfectly acceptable. Having the API broadcast all the intel to build these heuristics for every single system without requiring your effort is against the design goal of wormhole space. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.06 23:36:00 -
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Trinkets friend wrote: I live in a C3/U210 and connect to lowsec and nullsec regularly. nullsec roams which focus on finding and killing carebears use starmap data, which it appears is generated by the API. Third-party tools such as GARPA's trawl API information to generate hotspot activity of ratting, jumps, people in space, etc.
On DOTLAN you can use your IGB to browse jump density records for nullsec systems, and ratting patterns, to determine when people are likely to be moving through various areas, to plan gate camps, roams, logoff traps for ratters or miners in ore anomalies, etc. Is this what you intended for the star map?
If the API is not intended for the purpose of PVPing, or generating kill data, or allowing people to find other people, then you must logically remove API kill logs, jumps and so on from k-space as well, and nobble the star map of its usefulness.
The fact is, on the one hand, k-space gets free intel which allows people to find one another for the purposes of sandboxing and creating the M's in MMO. On the other hand, w-space is not going to get it, just because "it's from the API"?
As immersion-breaking as free intel may be, the fact is, if no one had local, and everyone stayed cloaked all the time in EVE, it would be a terribly boring game. W-space relies on the API kill logs to at least give people the whiff of someone else being online around the same time of day, within the past 48 hours, to get people into a system for more than 5 minutes.
I think you should consider that it is inherently unfair, illogical and baseless to remove something from w-space, yet maintain it in k-space, under your logic.
Sure, this won't kill w-space. I'm immune to it, because I've got a U210 and can shoost fools in brosec. But it will
How many times do I have to explain this? The map data API for k-space is intended. It mirrors the information available in the client.
The map data API for wormhole space exposes data that is NOT AVAILABLE IN THE CLIENT. This is the only determinant. It has nothing to do with player use of that data, and never will. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:06:00 -
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Savage Chelien wrote:So if your argument to remove this feature from wh space then you must be going to remove it from null sec too as the same argument applies here too I too do not read the thread or understand even the barest precepts of the change before kneejerk posting about the change.
I guess we'll go over it again.
The change is being done because the information being exposed by the API is not available in the client. NPC kills, jumps, and ship/pod kills are available through the in-game map for nullsec, and as such, is eligible for exposure via the API.
Really, any arguments trying to complicate the matter more than this are a waste of time. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:18:00 -
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Andski wrote:HTC NecoSino wrote:A: Goons get burned out of WH. A couple weeks later - fanfest. A couple days later - this change. If the guys who evicted hole squad needed to use NPC kill data to find them they're pretty terrible at the metagame The e-hounourable wormhole dwellers would NEVER deign to use underhanded tactics such as spies. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.07 14:35:00 -
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Appel Sap wrote:BayneNothos wrote:Others have said that farmer systems looks a particular way. Maybe you're missing something? Either way you're getting free intel for no effort. That's not the EvE way. I must be missing something to. Please, tell us, how to get this intel through different mechanics? Insert one character in a covert ops class frigate. Fit it with a covert ops cloaking device and an expanded probe launcher. Carry a set of core and combat probes, for use in the expanded probe launcher. Once you have located a new wormhole, enter it, cloak, and use the probe launcher, the directional scanner, and your eyes to determine if a system has the Dreaded PvE Demons within. Launch an overwhelming force at the Demons, so that your own PvE group's profitability stays at an acceptable level. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.05.12 17:31:00 -
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CCP FoxFour wrote:Hello again,
I hope you all had a wonderful weekend. I said that the game design department would have another review of this proposal here on Monday, and that meeting has come and gone.
The conclusions of the meeting, and having talked to the CSM9, is that we WILL be removing WHs from the kills endpoint. This means that NPC, pod, and ship kill counts for WH systems will no longer be available from the EVE API.
This is a change that should hopefully ship with Kronos.
We do appreciate all of the feedback provided on this topic as we work on the goal of creating a balanced hunter/hunted environment. This is good to hear. I'm glad that you guys were able to stand your ground on consistency within the API despite the thread's apoplexy. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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