That's because there isn't one. The SDO guys are not the ones who are saying that they somehow deserve a GÇ£reimbursementGÇ¥ (which is actually a doubling of their SP). I'm simply pointing out that, yes, such a reimbursement would not be a reimbursement at all GÇö it would simply be free SP. Any appeal to GÇ£fairnessGÇ¥ is nonsensical unless it demands that everyone be given the same amount of free SPGǪ which no-one seems to be doing.

Nar' alk Breau wrote:

SDO5 person = CDO5 person.

Tippia wrote:

That's what happens sometimes when abilities are being switched around. All that matters is that you don't lose any, and if you happen to gain some in the process, then good for you.

Sure, you can get you CDO reimbursed for lost advantage when my characters get their astrometrics skills reimbursed for lost advantage. Until then, welcome to the club.

tTypical tippia. On every page splitting hairs, arguing endlessly with everyone and unable to see the forest through the trees. Sad way to live a life, on the forums

I think you are missing the point.

Why do we train skills? Its not to have more SP than someone else, its to gain an advantage over someone else.

This is probably the real issue here.

In theory you train SP to gain abilities improve your skills and gain access to things. Much like in real life you do a university degree to gain abilities improve your skills and gain access to things (like a career and better income).

Now sadly in real life SOME unfortunate people do actually do a university degree to gain an advantage over someone else rather than for what the degree actually offers. I suppose if you treat your gaming the same way then you would see the drone skill change as "losing" your 1 week "advantage" over other people.

In the current scenario my attitude is:

1. IF you trained CDO for the legitimate purpose of using the skill there is no need to reimburse.
2. if you trained it as patch speculation hoping to manipulate some sort of SP advantage over newer players well too bad it backfired

Can you explain how, if say, the destroyer ship class also had a bonus based on the BC skill, that would change the outcome, and thus the relevance of the example, in any way?

Fairness isn't nonsensical when one of the core elements your money pays for is being altered.

I suppose that's good enough for you, but not for me.

It's about the time I invested in CDO5 being equal to what an SDO5 person invested.

Training skills in eve is all about getting an advantage over another player.

The fact that your training of CDO5 no longer gives you any advantage over another player who didn't train CDO5 goes against one of the reasons you train for.

That's not an ability, though, nor was it preserved. Training is a core mechanic; the ability removed was the method to speed it up.

SoGǪ really, it's the SDO V guys that should be reimbursed because of their lost ability?


It was the exact same kind of GÇ£advantageGÇ¥ as people are talking about here, and no skill is being rendered useless. Some advantages were simply had through different means than before and people ended up with equal ability where they previously were equal. Even so, the guiding principle was that no ability was lost GÇö if you happened to gain some in the process, then good for you.

Good thing that nothing of the kind is happening, then.
It is especially nonsensical when the appeal to fairness is is just a hypocritical expression of selfish greed.

SDO V guys are getting a bump in skill points. So are you. Just because your isn't as big as theirs does not mean it's unfair. If you somehow lost something, then we might talk, but you won't GÇö the guiding principles try to avoid it, and the specific implementation of this change makes it impossible to do so.

I suppose that's good enough for you, but not for me.

Tough. That's how it is. Advantages are being lost every second you train anything above lvl I and will all be lost before long anyway. What you should never lose, though, is what you have already unlocked. That's what your time is worth: abilities. If those abilities amount to an actual advantage is completely situational and contextual and variable, and as such, they can't really be used as a measure of investment value.

That's why CCP retains and reimburses ability, not advantage. One can trivially and universally be measured and expressed in absolute levels, the other cannot.

GǪand guess what? You're getting an advantage through this change.

The fact that your training of CDO5 no longer gives you any advantage over another player who didn't train CDO5 goes against one of the reasons you train for.

GǪexcept that it does. In fact, it will give you even more advantages than it did before.

Training is a core mechanic, but that doesn't mean it can't be altered or portions of it changed, nor does it mean it's not an ability.

The SP reimbursement was for time, not the loss of an ability to train for faster training.

GǪand guess what? You're getting an advantage through this change.

GǪexcept that it does. In fact, it will give you even more advantages than it did before.

It definitely keeps it from being an ability, unless you also consider things like opening the market window or looking at the star map an ability. It's not something that characterises a character or account GÇö it's just a basic functionality. And again, the actual ability in question was not preserved. That's why the skills were reimbursed: because the ability they were meant to provide had been removed, and since that rendered the skills pointless, they were removed too.

The SP reimbursement was for skills that no longer provided the ability they were supposed to, since that ability was removed from the game. Had the skills been revamped into something different, there might not have been a reimbursement since your training would still have afforded you some kind of ability that set your character apart from others.

But there are others who are getting this same advantage who have invested less time.

While I like the quotes being taken out of context as it makes your argument appear stronger, no it doesn't give you an advantage against another player who has trained SDO5 with the coming patch.

no it doesn't give you an advantage against another player who has trained SDO5 with the coming patch.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Sure it does. You don't have to lose something for an outcome to be unfair. That's just silly. Refunding SP isn't a very hard thing to do, I'm not sure why you think it's impossible. It's been done before.

Actually the ability that was removed was deemed to be detrimental, but CCP chose to compensate the time spent investing in it. Furthermore they decided to provide the advantage of training speeds as granted by the skills in the form of attribute points.

Thus losing something that had no worth that only served as a barrier to something with worth was a benefit in itself and thus not something that needs compensation.

And no, just because someone else is getting a bigger bump than you do does not mean it's unfair, [...]

GǪand in doing so, the ability to alter your training speeds was replaced by a fixed increase in all training speeds everywhere. At best, a parallel could be drawn between that ability and the remap mechanic, but that one is more accurately a replacement for the static bloodline bonuses.

WeeellGǪ it had a value. It just didn't make up for the costs it incurred in terms of player annoyance and follow-on effects.

I don't get it.

The second quote refutes your first argument. Your response to the second quote doesn't make sense.

Yes, it does.

You lost me here, the ability to change something doesn't seem to be able to be compensated by simply increasing it.

I suppose if being a PITA is value, sure. I certainly don't miss them

GǪwhich doesn't change the fact that you're getting an advantage through this transition. Nor is it particularly relevant since there are roughly a bajillion ways that can and will happen even without this kind of alteration. Time only very vaguely translates into SP, and even more vaguely into actual advantages.

That's why the time GåÆ advantage coupling is not something CCP cares about. What they care about is unlocked ability.


I didn't take your quote out of context, though. I merely pointed out that you were wrong. Training CDO V gives you an advantage over someone who hasn't trained CDO V, and will continue to do so after the switch-over GÇö in fact, after the switch-over, it will provide even more advantages than before. Just because you realised the mistake you made doesn't change this fact.

GǪand yet, it still provides an advantage.

That's a nice strawman you have there. To bad it proves you wrong and me right, since you can't actually provide a proper point and have to resort to fallacies instead.

And no, just because someone else is getting a bigger bump than you do does not mean it's unfair, especially not given the sizeable advantage you're being given over others. If you want to talk about unfairness, let's start by sorting out the unfairness in your favour before complaining about how sad things are for youGǪ

Yes. That was my point: the ability could not be compensated for, so the skills became worthless and had to be reimbursed. I'm answering what you said about how the skills were doubly compensated GÇö I'm saying they were only compensated once (through the SP reimbursement).

I think we might have one of those GÇ£aggressively agreeingGÇ¥ situations here.

Eve is a time based game .. .

Just because some players (viz. the ones who have trained SDO V or CDO V) will get the same bonuses and drones does not mean you're not getting an advantage over other players for having trained CDO V. You do.

No, someone getting a bigger bump than you do can actually be exactly what fairness dictates, and both getting the same bump can be hideously unequal and unjust. [...]

Your loss. I don't always agree with Tippia but he's not a troll.

Well if she isn't then it really means she (he?) is really that dumb.