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Why Eve isn't more popular?

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Neutrino Sunset Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact 35	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:02:00 - [1] - Quote A recent Jester's Trek article on EN24 http://evenews24.com/2014/05/10/jesters-trek-the-seven-percent-solution/ discusses CCP's concerns with the New Player Experience and suggests that some of the guys at CCP have been struggling to understand why Eve isn't more popular. Among all the reader comments on that article one jumped out at me immediately. PvE in Eve is shite. It's completely true, there's no denying it. You warp into a level 4 mission and there are rows of red x's all arranged in neat little blobs. They sit there dumbly as you start picking off the ones at the end and only actually shoot you back when you start attacking the ones in their own little blob. They don't remote rep at all, and apart from a couple of bosses their local rep is pathetic, they almost never web or scram you, and they don't try to escape before they are killed. Ewar between NPC's and players either doesn't work at all, or is mostly a chance based mockery of real player ewar that makes using it in PvE almost completely pointless. What's more. Despite all the changes to the game over the years basic NPC combat of the kind you find in missions and belts hasn't improved one little bit in 10 years. 'Epic arcs' were added back in Dominion (2009) and touted as a framework that would permit the constant creation of new and exciting PvE with "immersive story, with dramatic arcs, unique characters, and an ebb and flow of dramatic events" in which the choices the player made would impact on how the story developed. Well what a crock of **** that turned out to be. To date there are I think 7 arcs making this a classic example of a good idea that once implemented has been pretty much left to rot on the vine. What you have to keep in mind is that anyone coming into Eve is likely to have had experience of other (often free to play MMOs), and naturally they will have certain expectations. Equally, as developers of an MMO CCP should know this and be perfectly well aware of what those expectations are. Many new Eve players will expect to be able to log in and chill out while leveling up their Raven/(faction pirate mission machine). In order to do that Eve has to provide an entry level NPC combat system that is engaging. NPCs should be hard enough to be challenging and have some basic combat intelligence. For better realism, missions should consist of fewer, harder NPCs. They should have decent tanks, remote rep in harder missions, attack in a coordinated fashion, attempt to retreat before they are destroyed, and EWAR should work the same on NPCs as it does on players. I seem to recall that when Sleeper AI was introduced there was talk of that eventually finding its way into mission and belt/exploration rats, and again with the introduction of Incursions. Needless to say, nothing came from that. Another thing that was mentioned in the article was that most players who play Eve leave almost immediately, of those that don't most play entirely solo for a while and then leave later, and that very few engage with other players at all, but the one that do engage with other players tend to be the ones that stay. Well if that's the case and you want to do something to encourage new players to engage with other players, then instead of having the new player experience being nothing more than an introduction on how to run missions by yourself, why not instead have a new player experience that focuses instead on player interaction? Here's a random thought. Instead of having new players start off in an NPC corp, why not have them start off in a Faction Warfare militia instead, and have a few extra simple missions just for brand new characters to ease them into it. They can always leave of course and revert to an NPC corp once they've completed the tutorial.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 5644	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:03:00 - [2] - Quote Gû¼Gû¼Gû¦ Features & Ideas Discussion FuryBotGäó 0.86 The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'.
Ralph King-Griffin Var Foundation inc. 1416	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:05:00 - [3] - Quote I stopped reading at pitchfork wielding Looney. We forget, eve is hard, realy hard.
Audrey UntzUntz Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 18	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:06:00 - [4] - Quote PVE combat in MMO is always shite. At least in EVE you aren't stuck in a canned animation looking like your dancing to the hoolah with lights flashing out of your butt. I don't think the lack of PVE is what makes EVE unpopular. I believe it's mostly related to the harshness of the EVE player base. If you ask a random player what they think about EVE, they will usually respond with: 1) Incredibly intense and serious game 2) Populated by equally intense and serious douchebags.
Josef Djugashvilis Acme Mining Corporation 2383	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:08:00 - [5] - Quote Dear Op, don't like pve, don't do it. This is not a signature.
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4127	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:09:00 - [6] - Quote 93% WoWheads CoDkids Fine wire mesh Dark claret MMOs EvE Please rearrange these into my response. Add interogatives, "the", "and" , "it", "or" & other similar words for flavour "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Felicity Love It Was the Year 3030 1791	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:10:00 - [7] - Quote EVE requires a certain amount of effort and applied thinking, and the game rewards such players for said effort and thought. Most other MMO's and console games... not so much, in either respect. Just saying... because, now and then, just to rage at the idiots and crush them like lemmings, I like a mindless "hack and slash" as much as the next guy. "HTFU ! " -á--- -áKatee Sackhoff, aka "The F-Bomb Queen of EVE" ! !-á
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4127	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:10:00 - [8] - Quote Audrey UntzUntz wrote: PVE combat in MMO is always shite. At least in EVE you aren't stuck in a canned animation looking like your dancing to the hoolah with lights flashing out of your butt. I like your poast, but I am in love with the above sentence. "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 6415	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:11:00 - [9] - Quote Neutrino Sunset wrote: What you have to keep in mind is that anyone coming into Eve is likely to have had experience of other (often free to play MMOs), and naturally they will have certain expectations. Equally, as developers of an MMO CCP should know this and be perfectly well aware of what those expectations are. Screw their expectations. And what is is with people wanting this game to be "more popular"? More people equals more crap, that's why for example IRL exclusive night clubs are exclusive and night clubs open to anyone are just ghetto-trashy places that experience a lot of police calls lol.
Solecist Project Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1024	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:12:00 - [10] - Quote Looks like CCP is completely missing the point. Not even talking about Riptard... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4492860 Killmails for Wrecks!! Ganker tears, best tears! Red ... it's the color of life .........
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 21678	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:12:00 - [11] - Quote Neutrino Sunset wrote: PvE in Eve is shite. It's completely true, there's no denying it. It's mainly because PvE is a fairly secondary part of the game, mainly intent to provide an influx of ISK into the economy. Quote: 'Epic arcs' were added back in Dominion (2009) and touted as a framework that would permit the constant creation of new and exciting PvE with "immersive story, with dramatic arcs, unique characters, and an ebb and flow of dramatic events" in which the choices the player made would impact on how the story developed. Well what a crock of **** that turned out to be. Not really. They framework did allow for all of that, and the arcs work that way. They just haven't revisited it to create much more of the same. Quote: Many new Eve players will expect to be able to log in and chill out while leveling up their Raven/(faction pirate mission machine). So as always, the problem isn't really the game but the deeply flawed expectations that people bring to it? Quote: I seem to recall that when Sleeper AI was introduced there was talk of that eventually finding its way into mission and belt/exploration rats, and again with the introduction of Incursions. Needless to say, nothing came from that. GÇªwell, aside from Sleeper AI now being used by mission and belt/exploration rats (not just in incursions). Quote: Another thing that was mentioned in the article was that most players who play Eve leave almost immediately, of those that don't most play entirely solo for a while and then leave later, and that very few engage with other players at all, but the one that do engage with other players tend to be the ones that stay. That seems odd since the research done shows rather the opposite: those who don't engage with others are the ones to leave, and while many people spend time flying on their own, not many are playing entirely solo. Moreover, all the most popular activities in the game are intrinsically group oriented. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.
SurrenderMonkey Space Llama Industries 490	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:12:00 - [12] - Quote That was a whole lot of words just to say, "I don't understand what a niche game is!"
hellcane Never Back Down 125	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:14:00 - [13] - Quote A good deal new players leave because they are used to hand holding and theme park MMOs. Without something telling them how to proceed, they vapor lock. These are the ones you see on the forums that want a pvp toggle, whine about never being able to compete with a 100m sp person, or super-concord in every system(to name a few). Eve is better off without them.
Riot Girl You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack 3232	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:20:00 - [14] - Quote Why do PvP and PvE have to be different things? I don't drive to work in the morning and say oh I'd better not get into a crash because this isn't my PvP car. It's stupid. Oh god.
Kaarous Aldurald ROC Deep Space The ROC 5997	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:25:00 - [15] - Quote And we have identified yet another one of Jester's butt puppets. I motion that we make linking his blog grounds for locking a thread. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." Psychotic Monk for CSM9.
Victoria Sin Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 617	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:25:00 - [16] - Quote hellcane wrote: A good deal new players leave because they are used to hand holding and theme park MMOs. Without something telling them how to proceed or a YouTube video telling them the mechanics of a static fight, they vapor lock. These are the ones you see on the forums that want a pvp toggle, whine about never being able to compete with a 100m sp person, or super-concord in every system(to name a few). Eve is better off without them. They're the ones who want to log in and do their own thing and what the hell is wrong with that anyway? It's their money, their spare time. If CCP doesn't want to cater to them, fine. Don't expect their custom. Why complain about them?
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 21679	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:25:00 - [17] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: Why do PvP and PvE have to be different things? Inertia. Just think about how much work it would be to change every mission in the game to be a proper PvP-like experience and how many tops would be blown by people who'd no longer be able to just warp in with their battleship, F1 everything in sight, and casually collect cashGÇª GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ Get a good start: Newbie skill plan 2.1.
Forum Clone 77777 Do You Even Irony Broew 284	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:27:00 - [18] - Quote PvE is ****, correct, but how is it different from other games and their pve? PvE is basically always tedious and boring, its Always a grind. If Im wrong, please show me another mmo with meaningfull and "exciting" and tell me what is so different about it.
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4129	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:28:00 - [19] - Quote Forum Clone 77777 wrote: PvE is ***, correct, but how is it different from other games and their pve? PvE is basically always tedious and boring, its Always a grind. If Im wrong, please show me another mmo with meaningfull and "exciting" and tell me what is so different about it. Im only playign devil's advocate here... But in Soviet Minecraft, the PvE ganks YOU! "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence."* - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4129	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:30:00 - [20] - Quote Felicity Love wrote: crush them like lemmings I got a tingly feeling when you said that "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility 3209	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:32:00 - [21] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: butt puppets. hahaha a puppet controlled with farts but yeah missions and mining are absolutely terrible and new players are herded straight into these shitfests, solo. even factional warfare plexing is ninety percent staring at a progress bar ticking down and ccp don't show any sign of wanting to address that
Riyria Twinpeaks Reasonable People Of Sound Mind 1917	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:32:00 - [22] - Quote Victoria Sin wrote: hellcane wrote: A good deal new players leave because they are used to hand holding and theme park MMOs. Without something telling them how to proceed or a YouTube video telling them the mechanics of a static fight, they vapor lock. These are the ones you see on the forums that want a pvp toggle, whine about never being able to compete with a 100m sp person, or super-concord in every system(to name a few). Eve is better off without them. They're the ones who want to log in and do their own thing and what the hell is wrong with that anyway? It's their money, their spare time. If CCP doesn't want to cater to them, fine. Don't expect their custom. Why complain about them? I think the main complaint is the one about those people who want to change the game to fulfill their expectations. Because many people like exactly what those people want to change. Those people also can log in and do their own thing, they should just be careful and aware that others might try to interfere, so they got to think about ways of protecting themselves while doing their thing.
Malcolm Shinhwa Bad Touches 2310	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:32:00 - [23] - Quote Riot Girl wrote: Why do PvP and PvE have to be different things? I don't drive to work in the morning and say oh I'd better not get into a crash because this isn't my PvP car. It's stupid. That has always bugged me about Eve from the time I first started playing. Its "ZOMG!! PVP all THE time BITCHES!!!" oh and here is your PVE fit ship for the missions. "Its the pod I'm after. The ship is just a pod condom." -- Turgesson "You're a d-bag. But you're a caring d-bag." -- Sindel Pellion
hellcane Never Back Down 130	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:34:00 - [24] - Quote Victoria Sin wrote: They're the ones who want to log in and do their own thing and what the hell is wrong with that anyway? It's their money, their spare time. If CCP doesn't want to cater to them, fine. Don't expect their custom. Why complain about them? Nobody had issues with the people that log in to "do their own thing". Most of the time these type of players fit well into eve as long as they realize there are no free passes and that they will eventually interact with someone. Do I detect someone that wants one of the things I mentioned? It is OK to say so.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet 6405	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:39:00 - [25] - Quote I won't deny improving the PvE experience wouldn't help the game be more videly liked, but you have to keep the larger picture in mind. The nature of EVE will always mean it's not going to be the top dog. It's not casual friendly, you play a spaceship and the gameplay style in general isn't popular. Not casual friendly: You can play EVE casually, but it doesn't mainly cater to them and they're the large mass. They want easy access to content, to play their way without unwanted interference from others and don't like to suffer meaningful setbacks. Access to EVE content can be hard. It's not clear what is available or where you find it. Even when you do it an be likely to cause you setbacks or require long skilling to start doing. You play as a ship: People want to create their own unique and cool looking avatar and play with it. EVE has common looking meaningless human avatars. You play the ships. Ships with limited, inconvenient and expensive customization options. This probably isn't a huge issue with EVE players, since if it was, they wouldn't be playing in the first place. It's a bigger problem for potential customers and even existing ones exhibit strong desires toward avatar gameplay or more powerful and convenient customization tools for their avatar or ships. Gameplay: Spreadsheets-online, double clicking movement, poor visibility for the action offered(shooting crosses/boxes), action is slow paced and the game does the action for you(You command your ship. You don't pilot/aim/shoot/dodge). These are not all bad things, but they're not popular nor sell the game well to the masses. The gameplay offered inspires people, but they don't want to deal with the reality of making it all possible. They're like kids who saw a war movie and think how cool and exciting it's to be a soldier, but most of them would be very put off by the reality of what being a soldier is and what is involved in getting huge armies to fight each other. They just want to feel like the hero for a moment before reality intrudes upon them again. Making a change where shooting the crosses is more challenging and rewarding isn't going to be a major shift in the game for anyone not already playing it and even some who are aren't going to value your that change, because EVE is primarily about the players and the crosses are there just to keep their wallet on the positive. Again I don't think it would be a bad thing, but I wanted to put it in perspective. It can even be seen as a negative by some, since development resources are limited and the focus of the game is not fighting NPCs. There are a lot of games that focus on that and EVE will always be the lesser choice for people who want to primarily play against NPCs.
Themanfromdalmontee EVE RADIO ARMY 45	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:40:00 - [26] - Quote Stopped reading when I saw F2P People who play F2P won't get EVE as they happily buy gold ammo and shite to get what they want :P
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4133	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:40:00 - [27] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: Kaarous Aldurald wrote: butt puppets. hahaha a puppet controlled with farts *MEGASNERK* "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
admiral root Red Galaxy 1206	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:41:00 - [28] - Quote Neutrino Sunset wrote: Jester's Trek... EN24 Dang, you were so close to a hat-trick of fail. To quote the great philosopher, Meat Loaf, two out of three ain't bad. No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Ramona McCandless The McCandless Clan Council of Peace and Prosperity 4133	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:41:00 - [29] - Quote Themanfromdalmontee wrote: gold ammo Churchill III FTW "They feel the need to cover their ears and eyes in horror at your very presence." - Pontianak Sythaeryn "I can't honestly believe that Peace and Prosperity has a face like a naughty sarcastic nun that's come to whip me with a ruler." - Domanique Altares -á-á *FREE THE JITA 1*
Jenn aSide Smokin Aces. 6419	Posted - 2014.05.12 16:44:00 - [30] - Quote Victoria Sin wrote: They're the ones who want to log in and do their own thing and what the hell is wrong with that anyway? 3 letters. M....M......O Nothing wrong with doing their own thing so long as the realize that everyone can do that, and for some, "doing their own things" means "doing YOU" lol. Quote: It's their money, their spare time. If CCP doesn't want to cater to them, fine. Don't expect their custom. Why complain about them? Because they are complaining about CCP not catering to them rather than screwing off to some themepark game with Developers that give a damn.

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