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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
209
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Posted - 2014.05.20 10:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
So .. on top of 50% increase in fuel cost the jump freighter gets also 50% nerf to the carrying capacity, significant nerf to the agility and reduction in ehp?
Like really? You have deep null sec regions overpopulated or what is the issue?
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
210
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Posted - 2014.05.20 11:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Taking a quick look at numbers. Taking your average route (~30 ly, say eurgrana to C6 in dronelands) currently JF max skills will burn 25k fuel, after fuel consumption increase it will be approx 37.5k meaning price increase from 30mil to 45 mil (1200 per isotope) one way trip (twice that for there and back). With 2x T2 rigs (~2 bil atm) this would mean ~120 isk/m3 for one way trip. With roqual the price is atm 102 isk/m3 but if the Roqual fuel consumption is increased as well it will be 153 isk/m3 (but do note that ore compression arrays will be present in empire POS'es as well and Roqual has 250k ore bay). Anyway these changes suck - all they mean is a 2 bil expenditure for all JF owners as cargo expander rigs are the only ones that make any sense on a JF. In a nutshell nothing changes other than slower align speed for JF's plus a mandatory 2 bil expenditure. Not a lot of choice in here - is it. Roqual will not be far behind or will be slightly better than JF per m3 (do not remeber if Roqual fuel consumption was increased as well, but probably was so it would be approx 20..25% worse isk/m3 if ore bay is empty, however industrials loaded with ammo might make some sense in its ship maint bay).
Roqual is far more survivable though (cloak + overloaded mwd trick, for example, some ECM drones, etc) and also somewhat cheaper ship. If it's also economical will depends on if ORE bay will be used but it might be new FOTM for supercap mineral hauling with JF only used for doing the last hisec -> low sec jump to avoid the gate.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
210
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Posted - 2014.05.20 12:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tippia wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:I have no problems with trade offs, but how about we ask him to give you a 40% nerf of your guns and see what you say? In exchange for what?
I would presume for ability to fit full rack of T2 rigs for getting that 40% back. And ofc a minor agility reduction as a "tradeoff" 
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
210
|
Posted - 2014.05.20 12:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Carniflex wrote:Tippia wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:I have no problems with trade offs, but how about we ask him to give you a 40% nerf of your guns and see what you say? In exchange for what? I would presume for ability to fit full rack of T2 rigs for getting that 40% back. And ofc a minor agility reduction as a "tradeoff" except we already have that. so again, what are we getting for a 40% gun nerf?
The same warm feeling a JF pilot is getting from fitting these nice T2 rigs for getting back where it was. Like the fuel consumption increase would not have been enough to poke the smaller entities in the eye.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
212
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Posted - 2014.05.22 07:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone the Op has now been updated with a revised version of the design.
...
Let us know what you think!
This seems a more reasonable iteration than the first one with rigs. At least that way one has an option to refit and and fuel reduction module vs cargo expander vs nanofiber/istab feels like meaningful decision to make for JF based on specific situation as opposed to previous "decision" of fitting T2 cargo rigs or T1 cargo rigs.
Assuming the fuel savings from the proposed modules end up to be something meaningful enough. However, I see these modules to be in quite a high demand by all the non-freighter capital pilots and black ops pilots as well. If this ends up being a significant issue it might be possible to balance this by switching the flat 5% fuel reduction bonus from JF skill to provide additional benefit from these new lowslot modules or add a specific role bonus to JF hull. For a start, though, situation will be probably fine and will benefit smaller groups probably a bit more than major coalitions (as major coalitions can just shrug off the fuel costs as long as it's not something utterly crippling for smaller non-renter-empire groups).
Regular freighters seem better off slightly as well. Have not looked at exact numbers so far but at first glance it seems reasonable enough compromise in regards of cargo space vs agility/AP speed/EHP.
With the increased shields/armor it might be even reasonable to "escort" a freighter with logi ships against suicide ganks and 3 to 6 bonused web's would presumably make one still instawarp if one is willing to put in the effort of doing that kind of stuff.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
212
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 09:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Midori Tsu wrote:is it intended that the JFs won't be able to put on a single T2 CPR?
No one uses T2, they are useless. Beta's take 3 CPU, offer the same cap recharge bonus and one percent less shield boost penalty AND are usually cheaper. So you can fit one beta CPR on JF as long as the other two slots do not take any CPU.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
212
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 10:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Worried about your jump freighter? Send it along with a battlecruiser providing armor or shield resist boosts. which battlecruiser has a jump drive? which jf gets shot at after jumping?
Yet you do see JF lossmails in lowsec more or less regularly. Thing is - if the JF is getting shot after jumping its dead anyway regardless of EHP it has. Bcos mistakes happen - if they would not then no ship would die in EVE if everyone would be on their top game all the time, using scouts, deagressing in time, not swallowing baits, etc.
Common mistakes are - bumping off station after cyno, i'll placed cynos, being dumb and not docking getting bumped off station, jumping to cyno at POS, using a kickout station in low sec, etc.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
212
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 10:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Walter Hart White wrote:My main issue now is that you can't shield tank freighter but you can armor tank...
I would speculate that one of the reasons why armor seems to be at advantage is that remote shield reps hit at the beginning of the cycle while remote armor reps hit at the end of the cycle. So in a theoretical gank scenario of a shield vs armor freighter escorted by some logi they might end up roughly similar as shield guys should be able to get in an extra cycle.
Although I personally would just use something with sufficient web bonus and try to be faster with webs than gankers can with a point if I would have already something flying with the freighter.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
212
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 10:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
The capital ban is to stop large powerblocs trivially dominating high sec.
If the ban was removed, then the face of hi-sec would change overnight.
It's a relic from a really old time as once upon a time it was possible to tank CONCORD. Other than more undock games with carriers I do not see a lot changing in hi sec if the packaged caps would be allowed to be moved around in hisec. Well ... perhaps it would be also a slightly easier to siege a POS in hi sec as it would take couple less pilots / a bit less time. But as it stands today all it takes anyway is few dps with some buffer and few logi that knows what they are doing as POS guns as they are are a bit lol against any remotely organized attacker.
And I guess some missions without gates could be AFK'd but that would be .. well .. rather inefficient compared to just throwing equal amount of isk at that mission in a pirate BS hull.
I have not looked into leadership bonuses of carriers recently. They still are better than subcaps at it or are T3 better? That might be something to keep carriers out of hi sec.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
212
|
Posted - 2014.05.22 11:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Dareth Astrar wrote:
People spend their time in a game to play the fun parts, not be bored. Less shopping hastle, more getting back to what we want to do is WHY Jita is the place to go.
Until every local trade hub supplies the vast range (impractical based on likely sales) and at a competitive price, they won't realistically succeed at establishing themselves as a viable and practical alternative.
Any pilot that needs to fit a ship and is near amarr and just travels extra 10 jumps to jita to save 3 mil on the total cost of their ship is really not smart. Amarr and dodixie are prefeclty fine for 98% of the aquisitions any player will need. Jita only speciall place is in massed buy and sell orders for market pvp and massive resources trading.
Depends what they need. I would not go as far as claim that it's 98% - as if the local market is short just the right mod you need you will pay that 3 extra mil AND travel to Jita for that last mod. Even for stuff like standard doctrine stuff - like, for example Triangel Scimi which uses few deadspace medium shield transfers.
Jita is just the place where you know that if it's for sale you will get it instead of figuring out first if your full shopping list is available before you start shopping and end up going to Jita regardless.
For standard T2 fit the four hubs are usually ok, although even for that you can pay something through the nose for more niche things - like, for example, Heavy T2 logi drones or "common" faction items like republic/domination points, etc. Smaller hubs just fluctuate more. Amarr, as the second largest hub is still more or less fine ofc, been a while since I have lived south and used it though.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
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Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
212
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Posted - 2014.05.22 11:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:I'll give you a couple of reasons why capitals should stay out of highsec and I'm not even going to touch supers and titans: - capital production spam in highsec... we simply don't need that; - you can't add capitals to highsec without adding their main mean of travel - cynos in highsec. You don't want to open that can of worms; - Wars in higsec against lower skilled/newer characters... I was looking for the appropriate term and Urban dictionary told me "roflstomped"  . - Remote SB/TE Naglfars somewhere in a general area of a station where war targets are  ; - Fighters in higsec *cringe*; - ...
* The supers are much much larger than regular non-assembled caps and could not be moved. Also - they are by design undockabe as it stands and as such being able to transport supers into station would be significant change indeed.
* You can not produce capitals in hi sec. Being able to transport that would not change it. Otherwise most capitals would be produced in hi sec and would be just jumped out of hi sec (as it used to be once upon a time, that is the reason whi Chribba and other have capitals in hi sec today).
* Sure you can. Cyno's cant be done in hi sec and that does not prevent people going there in other jump capable ships like jump freighters and black ops. They even fixed the exploit where you were able to escape concord by jumping out of hi sec through cyno in low/null.
* Noobs get rolfstomped without caps in hi sec all day long already if going up against veterans. T2 logi ships, establised doctrines, flying pirate battleships .. etc ... so in that regard caps would not change the landscape by any significant degree.
* Sieged dread can not be remote boosted and its lock time is loooooong. Wirthout siege the dread is pretty much useless doing only approx 1/3 rd of the gank battleship damage. So I really really would not worry about dreads camping someone in sub cap in. Now if someone is playing the station games in a carrier agressing at station then ... I would indeed expect to see some dreads stuck on that station for the duration of their siege cykle. Unsupported sieged dreads die btw real fast if you neut them dry. So combat as expected.
* I do not understand what would be the problem exactly with fighters in hi sec. They lose the carrier bonuses when assigned to other people so they suck badly for pve unless directly controlled by a carrier, can be killed if one needs to and carriers can't already use any gates in missions so using a carrier in a mission would be possible only in select few missions - and they are less effective at that than a pimped pirate BS at roughly similar cost.
Although we are drifting off topic in here. I just honestly do not believe regular capitals would be a problem in hi sec in todays EVE. On the other hand I'm not particularly caring if they can or can not enter hi sec as other than few very select niche cases I do not see much use for them in hi sec. The being mainly station games, shooting POCO's / POS'es with fewer people and poviding leadership bonuses and - one important factor why ORCA was nerfed - theyr ship maintenance bay would allow criminals to ignore their sec status by just grabbing gank catalysts from a carrier.
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
212
|
Posted - 2014.05.23 06:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
A good point was raised few pages back.
What about different fuel consumption the JF's currently have per light-year? Now that their cargo capacities are pretty much the same it might make sense also to make the fuel consumption pretty much the same for all races as otherwise you will end with just one "good" JF.
And a bit more about regular capitals in hi sec which was discussed a number of pages back (related to increasing their packaged sizes up so that regular freighters could not be used to haul them to hi sec).
The main reason why they are not allowed is probably roqual I would guess. As I pointed out dreads and carriers are not really an issue in hi sec (other than grabbing gank catalysts from a carrier and possibly its leadership bonuses when running gang links).
On the other hand having the ability would mean occasional regular freighter jumping into lowsec and coming back out with max cargo expanders on. Plus ofc all the joy of people who would be ganking freighters afkpiloting with their carriers and dreads towards jita to sell in the hub with max cargo expanders on ;)
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!*
GOT the bastard. |
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