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Gaylente Hunter	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:25:00 - [1] Amarr should have an added damage type to some crystals . Amarr is so limited because most of their damage output is lasers that lasers should have a wider range of damage types. I'm not saying give every crystal some explosive damage, just a few.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:28:00 - [2] no amarr dmg type is fine, and thats from an amarr user! BUT that said amarr have a lot of problems in their crusier class and frig class weapons! -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Anarkia Evangel	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:28:00 - [3] Edited by: Anarkia Evangel on 01/06/2006 18:34:07 But they have one of the best damage mods, so it works out. They would be way to powerful if they could do anymore damage types Edit- just to add, Minmatar do all types of damages but have a lower damage out put. L Multi 28 EM, 20 thermal = 48 L EMP 20 EM, 8 kin, 16 explosive = 44
Kidd Billups	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:29:00 - [4] EM damage 4tl
Elve Sorrow	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:29:00 - [5] Back in cage, idiot.
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:32:00 - [6] Edited by: Tiuwaz on 01/06/2006 18:34:56 and give them flying monkeys po0flingers ftw Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
keepiru	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:33:00 - [7] dont listen to these people, give me cake instead. ---------------- Please fix BC Sig/Agility!
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:35:00 - [8] Originally by: keepiru dont listen to these people, give me cake instead. careful the monkeys always try tell ppl its cake Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Anarkia Evangel But they have one of the best damage mods, so it works out. They would be way to powerful if they could do anymore damage types that is not true, blasters and AC on most ships far out damage pulse on an amarr ship an example is electron blasters on a thorax, 220mm AC on a rupture do >40% the dmg of Focused medium pulse laser 2s overall apart from the gedden amarr T1 ships suck a lot compaired to gal and minm -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:36:00 - [10] Amarr should have the weapons that do kinetic and explosive damage. What idiot puts weapons on a ship that he knows his enemy is highly resistant against?! What reason is there to use Amarr ships+lasers against the racial enemy, the Minmatar? Caldari, Gallente and even Minmatar themselves work alot better against them. Go go roleplay! Not.. Really a bad idea to balance the racial enemies against each other by boosting defensive capabilities instead of offensive. Amarr ships and lasers should be the best choice against Minmatar (and vice versa of course). But frankly, they are the worst. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Darken Two	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:37:00 - [11] Go away !!!!11 Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
wierchas noobhunter	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:38:00 - [12] um ammar nned more dmg tipes >? oki just ducktape to apoc some sharp sticks and taran your enemys oki now we have + kin dmg join soar angelic
FawKa	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:39:00 - [13] You know every race has its own dmg-type. This is how it should be and it is how it will allways be amarr - EM caldari - KI gallente - TH minmatar - EX end of story after that Race bonuses: amarr - cap caldari - range gallente - damage minmatar - rof
Ather Ialeas	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Anarkia Evangel Edited by: Anarkia Evangel on 01/06/2006 18:34:07 But they have one of the best damage mods, so it works out. I don't know about others but I'd be willing to let go of that if we'd get a third damage type. ________________________________________________ My signature exploded :/
Anarkia Evangel	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: Anarkia Evangel But they have one of the best damage mods, so it works out. They would be way to powerful if they could do anymore damage types that is not true, blasters and AC on most ships far out damage pulse on an amarr ship an example is electron blasters on a thorax, 220mm AC on a rupture do >40% the dmg of Focused medium pulse laser 2s overall apart from the gedden amarr T1 ships suck a lot compaired to gal and minm I've edited my post so its clearer what i ment
Tiuwaz	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:45:00 - [16] Originally by: Forsch Amarr should have the weapons that do kinetic and explosive damage. What idiot puts weapons on a ship that he knows his enemy is highly resistant against?! What reason is there to use Amarr ships+lasers against the racial enemy, the Minmatar? Caldari, Gallente and even Minmatar themselves work alot better against them. Go go roleplay! Not.. Really a bad idea to balance the racial enemies against each other by boosting defensive capabilities instead of offensive. Amarr ships and lasers should be the best choice against Minmatar (and vice versa of course). But frankly, they are the worst. i'll explain it slowly so you'll understand aswell RACIAL enemy means you do sucky dmg aginst your enemy but can tank him well, this is the same for all 4 races, go figure Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:47:00 - [17] Originally by: FawKa You know every race has its own dmg-type. This is how it should be and it is how it will allways be amarr - EM caldari - KI gallente - TH minmatar - EX end of story after that Race bonuses: amarr - cap caldari - range gallente - damage minmatar - rof id laugh my ass off if mini actually did mostly exp dmg, THEY SHOULD but they dont! -------------------Sig----------------------- welcome to eve, a game for the unemployed, the t2 bpo winners, GTC sellers, macro miners and agent *****s
Darken Two	Posted - 2006.06.01 18:53:00 - [18] Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Anarkia Evangel Edited by: Anarkia Evangel on 01/06/2006 18:34:07 But they have one of the best damage mods, so it works out. I don't know about others but I'd be willing to let go of that if we'd get a third damage type. you can have that the same day my blasters have a 40km optimal and do explosive damage on top of kin and therm. Sound fair to ya? Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.01 19:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Tiuwaz i'll explain it slowly so you'll understand aswell RACIAL enemy means you do sucky dmg aginst your enemy but can tank him well, this is the same for all 4 races, go figure So you think it's okay like this? I find this concept pretty retarded tbh. Why have racial enemies and factional warfare at all if the most plausible solution is to use another race's ship and weapons? It's frustrating that as member of an Amarr roleplay alliance I'm best off using Gallente, Caldari or even Minmatar ships+weapons against our roleplay enemy, the Minmatar. And you don't need to explain anything slowly as long as you're only stating the obvious. I know it is like this, but this is exactely why I am complaining. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
FawKa	Posted - 2006.06.01 19:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: FawKa You know every race has its own dmg-type. This is how it should be and it is how it will allways be amarr - EM caldari - KI gallente - TH minmatar - EX end of story after that Race bonuses: amarr - cap caldari - range gallente - damage minmatar - rof id laugh my ass off if mini actually did mostly exp dmg, THEY SHOULD but they dont! You actually got that right It was the idea of the system though
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.01 19:51:00 - [21] Edited by: Sarmaul on 01/06/2006 19:51:44 sigh Multiply these values by 2 for medium, 4 for large and 8 for xlarge: Barrage: 6 ex, 5 ki Carbonized Lead: 3 ex, 3 ki Depleted Uranium: 3 ex, 3 ki, 2 th EMP: 5 em, 4 ex, 2 ki Fusion: 8 ex, 2 ki Hail: 12 ex, 3 ki Nuclear: 5 ex, 2 ki Phased Plasma: 8 th, 2 ki Proton: 4 ki, 3 em Quake: 9 ex, 6 ki Titanium Sabot: ki 6, ex 3 Tremor: 5 ex, 4 ki Out of the 12 ammos we have, 8 have explosive as their primary damage, and only 2 have no explosive in them at all (and both of those have kinetic in them which is minmatar's secondary damage type). Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Grimpak	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:02:00 - [22] to the ones that say "OMG AMARR SHOULD HAVE MORE DMG TYPES!!!1oneone", I say this: What would happen to the game's balance if you included explosive damage in lasers? ...do you guys even imagine what would be if pulse lasers had explosive damage added? ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
Vera Nosfyu	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:05:00 - [23] I suppose this means that blasters and railguns should have explosive and EM weapons too? AC's and artillery have two things going for them: No cap (balanced by reloads) and variable damage type. They don't have range like the Amarr, or raw DPS like the Gallente. Instead they can change some of their damage. Oh, and if you want to use T2 ammo you can throw that away, too. Having different damage types in the exception, not the rule. ----------------------------------------------------------- "Violence solves all problems, no man, no problem." --Josef Stalin
TheMoog	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:07:00 - [24] Edited by: TheMoog on 01/06/2006 20:08:58 Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Tiuwaz i'll explain it slowly so you'll understand aswell RACIAL enemy means you do sucky dmg aginst your enemy but can tank him well, this is the same for all 4 races, go figure So you think it's okay like this? I find this concept pretty retarded tbh. Why have racial enemies and factional warfare at all if the most plausible solution is to use another race's ship and weapons? It's frustrating that as member of an Amarr roleplay alliance I'm best off using Gallente, Caldari or even Minmatar ships+weapons against our roleplay enemy, the Minmatar. And you don't need to explain anything slowly as long as you're only stating the obvious. I know it is like this, but this is exactely why I am complaining. I always thought it was obvious that, if your lifelong-roleplay enemy does EM damage with they main weapons, lasers, you and your fellow Matari engineers will built ship that whitstand mostly EM damage, same with any other faction's weapons and resists. The resists were put to counter your enemy's main damage, not the weapons developped to hit the lowest enemy's resist. RP-wise, everything seems fine. EDIT: NO EXP crystals !
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:09:00 - [25] Originally by: TheMoog The resists were put to counter your enemy's main damage, not the weapons developped to hit the lowest enemy's resist. And THIS makes you use other races' ships and weapons against your racial enemy. That really blows. And it's this which I am criticizing. I don't care if you like that concept. I don't. Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Forsch	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:11:00 - [26] Originally by: Grimpak to the ones that say "OMG AMARR SHOULD HAVE MORE DMG TYPES!!!1oneone", I say this: What would happen to the game's balance if you included explosive damage in lasers? ...do you guys even imagine what would be if pulse lasers had explosive damage added? Who says they would have the same damage "number" as the others? Give them less damage. A lense to use if you know your enemy has an "unfixed" explosive hole. People can do explosive damage nowadays with projectiles and missiles. It's not like you wouldn't run into explosive damage already. Lasers getting explosive crystals as strong as the others... yes, probably overpowered. What's wrong with a crystal that does explosive damage but less than multifrequency? Still unfair? Forsch Defender of the empire More love for side factions!
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:11:00 - [27] Rebalance the EM/therm ratio. -- Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals!
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:14:00 - [28] I'll compromise - a small amount of kinetic damage? Minmatar t2s are generally shield tankers, and kinetic is the lowest resist. Just get your filthy slaver hands off my explosive damage Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Sarmaul	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:21:00 - [29] Originally by: Righteous Fury Originally by: Sarmaul I'll compromise - a small amount of kinetic damage? Minmatar t2s are generally shield tankers, and kinetic is the lowest resist. Just get your filthy slaver hands off my explosive damage Doesn't make any physics sense. Artillery shells can be modulated to give off the various damage types, electromagnetic pulses (i.e. lasers) have no physical properties other than photons and waveform. Mass is required for kinetic damage. this game stopped making physics sense a loooooong time ago Originally by: General Apocalypse the game is very well balanced
Apertotes	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:33:00 - [30] Originally by: Forsch Amarr should have the weapons that do kinetic and explosive damage. What idiot puts weapons on a ship that he knows his enemy is highly resistant against?! What reason is there to use Amarr ships+lasers against the racial enemy, the Minmatar? Caldari, Gallente and even Minmatar themselves work alot better against them. Go go roleplay! Not.. Really a bad idea to balance the racial enemies against each other by boosting defensive capabilities instead of offensive. Amarr ships and lasers should be the best choice against Minmatar (and vice versa of course). But frankly, they are the worst. maybe minmatar are supposed to shield tank Apertotes, the Guybrush Threepwood of New Eve
Arkanor	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:34:00 - [31] Originally by: **lente Hunter Amarr should have an added damage type to some crystals . Amarr is so limited because most of their damage output is lasers that lasers should have a wider range of damage types. I'm not saying give every crystal some explosive damage, just a few. Why? Hybrids are limited to Thermal and Kinetic, and I always* harden those because they are quite common. Lasers also have kick ass damage mods. ________ Originally by: kieron rabble, Rabble, RABBLE, RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!!111elevenone Sig certified HAC proof...terrible I know
Acerus Malum	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:35:00 - [32] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: Righteous Fury Doesn't make any physics sense. Artillery shells can be modulated to give off the various damage types, electromagnetic pulses (i.e. lasers) have no physical properties other than photons and waveform. Mass is required for kinetic damage. Easy fix. Lasers target the ammo crates onboard of the minmatar ships and there you go, kinetic and explosive damage. But the ammo crates are onboard! If we're considering super laser beams that can bypass shields, armor, and hull, why not go straight for the pod? Besides, you can't get hung up on the semantics of damage types. To begin with, yes lasers have mass because photons do, but in terms of Eve damage, it would be a very small number preceded by a decimal point and a lot of zeroes---so for practical purposes, there is none. Now, if we start quibbling over the differences between damage types dealt by the delivery mechanism, the actual ammo, and the resulting effect on the target, this thread will go completely to hell. Hybrid users are going to demand their extra 0.1 EM damage, and Caldari pilots in a ship with kinetic damage bonuses are going to (accurately) say, "Well technically, every missile has SOME kinetic component!"
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:42:00 - [33] Originally by: Gronsak Originally by: Anarkia Evangel But they have one of the best damage mods, so it works out. They would be way to powerful if they could do anymore damage types that is not true, blasters and AC on most ships far out damage pulse on an amarr ship an example is electron blasters on a thorax, 220mm AC on a rupture do >40% the dmg of Focused medium pulse laser 2s overall apart from the gedden amarr T1 ships suck a lot compaired to gal and minm this is a lie btw (probably from damage sheet that Weirda question in another thread) and probably responsible for a lot of these ridiculuous boost amarr thread: Weirda's Gank Omen (not max skill) ~400dps Weirda's Tank Maller (not with max skill) ~235dps neither of those are 'bad' for t1 cruiser, and both are with focused t2 pulse. Weirda's 'standard' Rupture ~200dps Please post you setup and will mimic it and get actual numbers. it was (belive) nyphur's original damage sheet that gave a lot of this whining kick start... would prefer to see one from naughty boy... not to say that nyphur was trying to make something wrong - but could not get maller/omen number that low or matching whatever tried on TQ, except for perhaps a setup that would not compare at all to the Thorax or Rupture setup that was posting those number. IE - there must have been a mistake or a modifier that was missed. Weirda dps numbers are straight from TQ, right now. Of course that is RAW dps. Weirda is specialized in minmatar and amarr... fly all t2 ships with t2 weapon spec up to battlecruiser (coming soon)... and pretty sure that NO bc can come close to touching the Absolution for DPS... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.01 20:48:00 - [34] Edited by: Weirda on 01/06/2006 20:49:53 oh - and don't touch damage type. so many people don't understand the circle of damage/resist/racial enemy ship balance. it is damned near perfect (balance wise) and support backstory/etc... you really 'screw the pooch' if you start mucking with racial damage types/etc... will have to write a paper sometimes. it actually gorgeous (in simplicity) the way that it all work and had gain so much respect for dev/desinger/concept when initially figured it out (pretty much right after start). if you have understanding of these thing (behind just the number) it really give you edge over all player that don't... and pretty much anyone could figure it out in 2 min if they bothered rather then demanding for everything to be 'different' then it is or the 'same' as everything else. __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Daxes	Posted - 2006.06.01 21:25:00 - [35] Originally by: Weirda Edited by: Weirda on 01/06/2006 20:49:53 oh - and don't touch damage type. so many people don't understand the circle of damage/resist/racial enemy ship balance. it is damned near perfect (balance wise) and support backstory/etc... you really 'screw the pooch' if you start mucking with racial damage types/etc... maybe u should check the eve balance history and u would notice that CCP started mucking with the racial damage types a long time ago and they prolly still dont know what they are really doing.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.01 21:35:00 - [36] Originally by: Daxes Originally by: Weirda Edited by: Weirda on 01/06/2006 20:49:53 oh - and don't touch damage type. so many people don't understand the circle of damage/resist/racial enemy ship balance. it is damned near perfect (balance wise) and support backstory/etc... you really 'screw the pooch' if you start mucking with racial damage types/etc... maybe u should check the eve balance history and u would notice that CCP started mucking with the racial damage types a long time ago and they prolly still dont know what they are really doing. what do you even mean by this statement? please back it up... if anything they have been pushing it more back toward racial damage type over the last year... which is what have everyone crying about their t2 resist so much... __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Torm Ilmater	Posted - 2006.06.01 21:37:00 - [37] I've got an awesome idea, lets give Amarr explosive damage on their lasers as well because we all know EVE was created exclusively for roleplayers and making those rpers think about changing ships or gun types to do a different type of damage just ain't right. Lets not forget that explosive or kinetic damage makes just SOOOOOO MUCH sense for lasers! First, whining because your CHOICE to rp a race means you fly only their ships doesn't give you a right to buffing your particular race "so we do more damage to our racial enemy." Now I don't see why you can't fit projectile weapons to your geddon or apoc and so gain the use of those other damage types. Sure you won't have the ship bonuses but you DO have that choice. It's not like matari are alone in the history of humanity to use projectiles.
Lobo Noturno	Posted - 2006.06.01 21:41:00 - [38] Daxes, I don't agree. It still looks like the Ammar lasers got the shaft on PVE. Although they work well enough against Ammarian racial enemies, they are completely useless against, let's say, Guristas(same problem agains the other pirates). Despite the Guristas choice for shield tanking, their EM shield resistance is excelent, the highest amongst all other damage types. It is almost like figthing Minmatar T2 ships all the time. The NPC shield/armor resistances needs a review to account for EM/explosive damage types. That would still leave the correct racial enemies to each faction more efficient at killing them, but still allowing for other race ships to work well enough to do the job. About PvP, I understand that ENAP2 created an issue for EM damage against armor tankers. I just don't think that messing with crystals damage will fix it without breaking something else... Only idea I have would be making Em resistance bonus weaker on these modules(armor resistance modules in general), and do the same to explosive resistance bonuses on modules for shields.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.01 21:41:00 - [39] Originally by: Forsch Originally by: TheMoog The resists were put to counter your enemy's main damage, not the weapons developped to hit the lowest enemy's resist. And THIS makes you use other races' ships and weapons against your racial enemy. That really blows. And it's this which I am criticizing. I don't care if you like that concept. I don't. moog - actually the answer that weirda was going to type... forsch - what you suggesting is to make everything the same and have no diversity... how very amarr of you... and yes - this might not be what you WANT, but making everything same would be the only way to ACHIEVE it, so be careful what you ask for or it may be exactly what you don't want. __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
mahhy	Posted - 2006.06.01 21:48:00 - [40] Originally by: Torm Ilmater Now I don't see why you can't fit projectile weapons to your geddon or apoc and so gain the use of those other damage types. Sure you won't have the ship bonuses but you DO have that choice. So losing ship bonuses, as well as turret skill bonuses, escpecially considering T2 skills is an answer to an overall deficiency in Amarr ships currently? Not the best suggestion ever, in fact the total opposite of the best suggestion. Currently Amarr ships and weapons are a bit lacking when compared to ships like the Mega. Not hugely, but we have fallen behind. So taking myself as an example, I've invested my entire Eve career in Amarr. Level 5 in all T1 Amarr ships and guns, level 5 in T2 turrets, plus all the ancillary Amarr skills like mechanics. And you suggest I lose those millions upon millions of SP in gunnery by mounting projectiles on my Arma. Not the brightest spark...
Antwon Stylez	Posted - 2006.06.01 21:50:00 - [41] Originally by: ***lente Hunter Amarr should have an added damage type to some crystals . Amarr is so limited because most of their damage output is lasers that lasers should have a wider range of damage types. I'm not saying give every crystal some explosive damage, just a few. I agree. Amarr is limited in what types of damage they deal. Gallente has drones so they can deal all 4 types. Minmitar ammo can deal all 4 types, and caldari uses missiles so they can use all 4 types. It would be fair to give Amarr 1 more damage type tbh
Torm Ilmater	Posted - 2006.06.01 22:15:00 - [42] Edited by: Torm Ilmater on 01/06/2006 22:15:21 Originally by: mahhy And you suggest I lose those millions upon millions of SP in gunnery by mounting projectiles on my Arma. Yes, I suggest exactly that. If you HAVE to fly Amarr ships, as you said, all those Gunnery skill WILL still help with other gun types. Sure your laser skills won't but all the others will so it's not a total loss and for the rper you're still remaining true to amarr ships (if not the amarrian choice of weapons). You choose to specialize in one race or not. You choose to specialize in one weapon type or not. Those are your choices and whining about them now especially when you compare them to Matari ships defensive capabilities (who should logically have the HIGHEST resists to lasers) is silly. Are Amarr slightly underpowered? Certainly possible. Do lasers need another damage type to make up for this lack. No, there are plenty of other options out there that would be less unbalancing to the game as a whole and probably of greater merit. Originally by: Lobo Noturno I don't agree. It still looks like the Ammar lasers got the shaft on PVE. Although they work well enough against Ammarian racial enemies, they are completely useless against, let's say, Guristas(same problem agains the other pirates). Despite the Guristas choice for shield tanking, their EM shield resistance is excelent, the highest amongst all other damage types. It is almost like figthing Minmatar T2 ships all the time. The NPC shield/armor resistances needs a review to account for EM/explosive damage types. That would still leave the correct racial enemies to each faction more efficient at killing them, but still allowing for other race ships to work well enough to do the job. Perhaps you should try killing Sanshas, who happen to be in the space directly next to the Amarrian empire. They're weak to EM (and slightly less so to thermal) so saying you go the "shaft" in pve would be an exaggeration. Sure the geddon or apoc is no raven but they're more useful (IMO) in pvp. Though that's just because I prefer armor tanking to shield tanking for pvp. :)
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.01 22:29:00 - [43] Originally by: Torm Ilmater Sure the geddon or apoc is no raven but they're more useful (IMO) in pvp.
Torm Ilmater	Posted - 2006.06.01 22:36:00 - [44] You might check out this. Interesting idea or at least worth a look
Uther Doull	Posted - 2006.06.01 23:04:00 - [45] Edited by: Uther Doull on 01/06/2006 23:07:36 no they should not, and i only fly amarr battleships ps1: elve, you're a meanie :P ps2: rebalancing the em versus thermal dmg amounts of crystals might be worth the discussion, but another damage type? no, just no
Rabid Sheep	Posted - 2006.06.01 23:32:00 - [46] Originally by: Torm Ilmater Edited by: Torm Ilmater on 01/06/2006 22:15:21 Originally by: mahhy And you suggest I lose those millions upon millions of SP in gunnery by mounting projectiles on my Arma. Yes, I suggest exactly that. If you HAVE to fly Amarr ships, as you said, all those Gunnery skill WILL still help with other gun types. Sure your laser skills won't but all the others will so it's not a total loss and for the rper you're still remaining true to amarr ships (if not the amarrian choice of weapons). You choose to specialize in one race or not. You choose to specialize in one weapon type or not. Those are your choices and whining about them now especially when you compare them to Matari ships defensive capabilities (who should logically have the HIGHEST resists to lasers) is silly. Are Amarr slightly underpowered? Certainly possible. Do lasers need another damage type to make up for this lack. No, there are plenty of other options out there that would be less unbalancing to the game as a whole and probably of greater merit. Originally by: Lobo Noturno I don't agree. It still looks like the Ammar lasers got the shaft on PVE. Although they work well enough against Ammarian racial enemies, they are completely useless against, let's say, Guristas(same problem agains the other pirates). Despite the Guristas choice for shield tanking, their EM shield resistance is excelent, the highest amongst all other damage types. It is almost like figthing Minmatar T2 ships all the time. The NPC shield/armor resistances needs a review to account for EM/explosive damage types. That would still leave the correct racial enemies to each faction more efficient at killing them, but still allowing for other race ships to work well enough to do the job. Perhaps you should try killing Sanshas, who happen to be in the space directly next to the Amarrian empire. They're weak to EM (and slightly less so to thermal) so saying you go the "shaft" in pve would be an exaggeration. Sure the geddon or apoc is no raven but they're more useful (IMO) in pvp. Though that's just because I prefer armor tanking to shield tanking for pvp. :) Exactly. Simple solution: make all drones deal kinetic or thermal damage. Choose two damage types for missiles and kick all the rest. switch all projectile ammo to kin/explosive. Result: 4 races - each with its two damage types. Switch accordingly race inherent resistances (both t1 and t2). I know this is rebuilding the game from scratch but I'd like to read posts by Gallente/Caldari pilots after their choices were brought down to those that Amarr have. "Slightly underpowered"? Just look at the map: where are the main trade hubs, which areas are more populated? check race related channels: how many people are on each? In case you didnt do that in a while I will remind you: it goes (from most popular areas to the least popular ones): Caldari -> Gallente ->(large break here) Minmataar and on the shy end Amarr. And these are not slight differences. It's simply much easier and efficient to play a race that has counters to everything (or most of it, read - Mimataar) then a race that isnt just as flexible. Just how often do you see Amarr ships flying in Gallente/Caldari space? How about the opposite? And please dont suggest we use ACs/hybrids on Amarr ships. In that case why not just remove lasers at all? and give projectile/hybrid bonuses to Amarr ships. I'm disgusted by the fact that I need to choose between chosen style/ role-playing values and pure efficiency. feel free to flame me now.
CherniyVolk	Posted - 2006.06.01 23:46:00 - [47] Another damage type? Are you kidding? OK, I can setup my Thorax to be essentially a HAC to any Amarr ship. EM and THE well over 80% each. A Retribution with Medium Pulse Laser IIs, four of them, and a Rate of Fire from the depths of insanity... can eat my Thorax's Sansha's ratting tank as if I didn't even bother with the low slots. It is unbelievable, only being hit for 8 or so HPs a shot, but they come streaming in like crazed fans entering a Metallica concert. I think you just need to learn to use the Lasers... even though I don't, I've seen what they can do. They do pretty well with only EM and THE. Oh, and being Gallente, an Amarrian wingman is always a comfort whenever I find a Caldari victim.
Nicholas Barker	Posted - 2006.06.02 00:34:00 - [48] In space lasers probably wouldn't be able to cut through think armor, however, they would cause alot of heat in a focused area of armor, and cause it to expand at a high rate, caused jack knifing of the armor, and producing explosive energy. It wouldn't do this to shields though :/ This is all found on that website about weapons in space. Did you know if you use an xray machine in space, it would produce an image of the the crew being killed from the inside with radiation? ----------------- Where'd me pod go?
Stamm	Posted - 2006.06.02 00:48:00 - [49] It's not the crystal damage types that's the problem. It's the resists on belt rats. Lasers are great against Sanshas and Blood Raiders. But they are the worst weapons to use against all others. Swapping kinetic and thermal on Serpentis would be nice - and make sense. Angels probably should have high EM resists, but Guristas could swap explosive and EM. I dunno though, someone could look at it and make it fair. The big problem with changing lasers is the effect it has on PvP, for which lasers are fine, bar fitting and cap use with low ship skills.
Meiron	Posted - 2006.06.02 01:35:00 - [50] Originally by: Antwon Stylez Amarr is limited in what types of damage they deal. Gallente has drones so they can deal all 4 types. Minmitar ammo can deal all 4 types, and caldari uses missiles so they can use all 4 types. It would be fair to give Amarr 1 more damage type tbh You know, other races can use drones too. The Armageddon gets the same dronebay as the Megathron. You want explosive damage? Use some Berserker IIs. If anything Gallente are just as limited if not more so than Amarr on damage types. EVERYBODY hardens for kin/therm, and they're mediocre on shields and armor to begin with. Plus, Caldari are by far the most numerous race in EVE, I think the devs revealed there were almost as many Ravens as any other two battleship types combined or something ridiculous like that. Lasers are the best vs. Caldari shields due to EM being their primary damage type.
Talos Munjab	Posted - 2006.06.02 01:39:00 - [51] Edited by: Talos Munjab on 02/06/2006 01:42:16 Originally by: Forsch Amarr should have the weapons that do kinetic and explosive damage. What idiot puts weapons on a ship that he knows his enemy is highly resistant against?! or could it be the minmatar made there ships resistant to em and thermal because thats what there enermy used no lasers are lasers, a beam of light has very little force so how can you make it kinetic, and it dont explode so how can you make it explosive, lets keep things real guys. and if you want lasers to do all damage types then hybrid guns should also do all types. i just adapt, i have blasters(therm and kinetic), i use em and explosive drones. that way all damage types covered. so lets try and keep some realism to the game shall we
Maliber	Posted - 2006.06.02 02:19:00 - [52] this thread is no longer in the eve space time continum. plz lock it to keep the monkey's in there cage
Aemilus Brutus	Posted - 2006.06.02 03:26:00 - [53] I didn't really intend to post this, someone will probably rip this a part. Resists on NPCs - Belt Rat Battleships (Shield and armor resists are the same) EM Exp Kin Therm Angel 500,000isk bounty (EM worst damage type, Kinetic 2nd best) Thermal 3rd 70405060 gap 20% Sansha 500,000isk (EM best, Kinetic in 3rd) Thermal 2nd 40706050 gap 20% Gurista 500,000isk (EM worst, Kinetic best) Thermal 2nd 70604050 gap 30% Blood Raiders 500.000 (EM best, Kinetic 3rd) Thermal 2nd 40706050 gap 20% Serpentis 500,000isk (EM in 3rd, Kinetic best) Thermal 2nd 60704050 gap 20% Kinetic doesn't ever seem to break 70% EM on Angel and Gurista almost always above 70% (may really be always above 70%) EM on Serpentis seems to stay in the 60%-70% range This is for Asteroid Battleships, stats from eveinfo.com The True Sansha Tyrant at over 13,000,000isk manages to get to 69% Kinetic, the highest for kinetic for Sansha. The highest Angel EM is 79% at 13,000,000isk Every single Angel BS on the list is over 70% EM (Some mission angel ships are well over 80% em resists) Same for Guristas Blood Raiders stay in the 60s with with Kinetic Highest at 69% on the 13,000,000isk Batteship Deadspace ships are a little different, but are pretty close to the belt npcs. If I went ratting, hybrids would be a decent choice almost anywhere, lasers not so much. This may be partly because hybrids also have a better kinetic/thermal ratios than lasers, as you can see thermal resists are usually in 2nd (and Gallente generally have bigger drone bays). Change the Thermal/EM ratios on laser crystals (be sane about it) and things would probably be really close to balanced. Though small lasers (mostly beams) and medium lasers (beam and pulse) could use some fitting help, there are many small and medium lasers you just can't fit on cruisers and frigates without really screwing your tank. Not fimilar enough with Minnies to really know how they work out.
InsanlyEvlPerson	Posted - 2006.06.02 03:31:00 - [54] you want another damage type for lasers, ok, lets give another 92.5% resist to my wolf i wont mind, i never fight amarr anyway, but it sure would help vs gallente and caldari
Aemilus Brutus	Posted - 2006.06.02 03:43:00 - [55] Now PVP is different and lasers may be fine, it's hard to tell (keep in mind cap use of lasers). A lot of players rat for isk to pvp, and a ton of people do run missions. So maybe just give the Amarr a couple of mid-close range crystals with better them/em ratio so they can at least be a little closer to hybrids when ratting. Might also give the Amarr a tiny bit better chance against Minnies that armor tank.
Aemilus Brutus	Posted - 2006.06.02 04:13:00 - [56] Kitty O'Shay posted this in one of the other laser threads. I think this was a really good point. (Sorry for stealing Kitty) Originally by: Kitty O'Shay Bottom line is that EANMs + armor compensation skills have moved EM resistance away from their original balance point. I think the devs original idea was to make it so ex/kin/th only needed to be hardened to make fitting ships a bit easier. Letting lasers have a "free" shot at armor was the trade off for not having as many ship damage bonuses. Tanking has changed with RMR, and lasers haven't kept up. I see five ways to fix this: 1) Balance the EM/thermal ratio of crystals. 2) Lower all ship EM resistance across the board. 3) Increase laser damage mods. 4) Add laser damage bonuses to all Amarr ships. 5) Create explosive crystals. Kitty went on to say number 5 was probably the worst choice, I've come around to thinking that too.
Kitty O'Shay	Posted - 2006.06.02 04:28:00 - [57] To continue on... I see another reason for the current cap use of lasers (and the ship bonus for it) was to keep lasers off other racial ship. It's before my time, but I've seen references to "Tachys on everything." The nerfing of lasers was a result of this, correct? So Amarr ships paid for the overpoweredness of lasers with the second bonus being made to allow the massive cap use and still function. Maybe it's time to look into this? So... Halve laser cap use, make multifrequency have a slight (5%) cap penalty, and give the ships a proper damage bonus. (The Omen/Geddon/etc with a ROF bonus could get a tracking bonus, to go with the ROF.) Those changes plus a tweak of the Gamma, Ultraviolet, and Radio crystal em/thermal ratio would go a long ways towards improving Amarr ship damage. -- Change the EM/thermal ratio on laser crystals!
General Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.06.02 05:11:00 - [58] Edited by: General Apocalypse on 02/06/2006 05:12:46 Originally by: Gronsak no amarr dmg type is fine, and thats from an amarr user! BUT that said amarr have a lot of problems in their crusier class and frig class weapons! An Amarr pvp'er that uses the rax and not an Amarr cruiser or HAC. Pls if u think our DMG output is fine whit lasers only then u realy need to meet an matari HAC in battle. Then tell us that "lasers are fine". What are u going 2 say next? That lasers are overpowerd ??
Serj Darek	Posted - 2006.06.02 05:37:00 - [59] Edited by: Serj Darek on 02/06/2006 05:37:49 Sure it helps us minmatar loads when we come up against amarr t2 ships with 90% explosive resistance! OMG EXPLOSIVE IS TEH ****!!! Stop being so damned narrow minded and see the big picture ffs. Plus, you don't need ammo, just go with some sets of laser crystals then your off shooting for 7 days. Whine whine whine! Fix the Typhoon description! 3 years in the making!
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.02 06:54:00 - [60] Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/06/2006 06:54:07 Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/06/2006 06:53:46 Originally by: Serj Darek Edited by: Serj Darek on 02/06/2006 05:37:49 Sure it helps us minmatar loads when we come up against amarr t2 ships with 90% explosive resistance! OMG EXPLOSIVE IS TEH **!!! And? You can use ammo with different types of damage, while Amarr pilots CANT Quote:** Stop being so damned narrow minded and see the big picture ffs I suggest you folllow your own advice
PriceCheckMax	Posted - 2006.06.02 07:13:00 - [61] Originally by: Weirda Weirda's Gank Omen (not max skill) ~400dps and pretty sure that NO bc can come close to touching the Absolution for DPS... 400dps on Omen, how? Care to explain the setup? Astarte can't come close to touching the absolution DPS?
soul colector	Posted - 2006.06.02 07:57:00 - [62] yeah, sure... i want then tepmest with 8 turret hardpoints....
Yodohime Kibagami	Posted - 2006.06.02 08:10:00 - [63] The damage types are fine really, problem is that 1/4'th of the weapons have so heavy fitting demands you cant realistically use them any better than one class size smaller weapon or some other faction's weapons. Full rack of heavy pulses is tight fit even on prophecy
EEHope	Posted - 2006.06.02 08:17:00 - [64] Armarr guys pls don't whine about lasers Why? 1# You guys dun need use Ammo bassicely you can pvp all day without worring omg my ammo is gettin low. 2# Don't forget u guys have drones bays USE IT!!! 3# You guys are the best Cap ship around. Forgot your insane Cap bonusses? 4# Its a style of taste imo Armarr Race has the hotest ships around... 5# You guys can change crystals when you want to for pvp setting atm u can go from long to short range in 10 secs cuse you guys dun carry Ammo's bassicly its comes to point #1 And still you dont like how the laser works? then Armarr isnt the race for you. PLS go reroll to other Race ships (gallente, caldari, minmatar). Yess you can fly them also -.-; Cheers \|MASS\| EEHope
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.06.02 08:27:00 - [65] well all i can say here is pimp your drone skills and fly geddon... 250dps from berserkers II is 50% dps of cruiseraven. Die, die, die.
Tehyarec	Posted - 2006.06.02 09:20:00 - [66] Edited by: Tehyarec on 02/06/2006 09:24:01 I don't see how a laser could possibly do kinetic or explosive damage. Makes no sense. Besides, indeed if we go that route, hybrids would need to get changeable damage too. Also, if you think about it, all missiles should do kinetic damage, and most also explosive (in addition to their main damage type that is) It's fine as it is. If you change one weapon, you have to change almost all of them, not to mention Minmatar ships resistances would then need to be looked at, etc... too much work in any case.
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.02 09:24:00 - [67] Originally by: EEHope Armarr guys pls don't whine about lasers Why? 1# You guys dun need use Ammo bassicely you can pvp all day without worring omg my ammo is gettin low. No need for ammo+no reload time because crappy fall of. Reload bug, been there for ages. Not even a mention of a fix. Quote: 2# Don't forget u guys have drones bays USE IT!!! No ** sherlock Quote: 3# You guys are the best Cap ship around. Forgot your insane Cap bonusses? Insane? The only thing insane is you. I suggest you actually fly Amarr before you post. Quote: 4# Its a style of taste imo Armarr Race has the hotest ships around... Dont judge a book by its cover. Logic 101. Quote: 5# You guys can change crystals when you want to for pvp setting atm u can go from long to short range in 10 secs cuse you guys dun carry Ammo's bassicly its comes to point #1 False. See point 1. Quote:** And still you dont like how the laser works? then Armarr isnt the race for you. PLS go reroll to other Race ships (gallente, caldari, minmatar). Yess you can fly them also -.-; Come back when you actualy know what you are talking about.
Hop3	Posted - 2006.06.02 09:58:00 - [68] Edited by: Hop3 on 02/06/2006 09:58:43 Originally by: Godar Marak No need for ammo+no reload time because crappy fall of. Reload bug, been there for ages. Not even a mention of a fix. That's why i said go fly other ships Originally by: Godar Marak No ** sherlock No comment i bet your one of people who actually use Drones. :) Originally by:** Godar Marak Insane? The only thing insane is you. I suggest you actually fly Amarr before you post. Name one race who cap bonusses like your ships does you guys can shoot %50 less each shot Originally by: Godar Marak Dont judge a book by its cover. Logic 101. agreed.. but still it looks hot Originally by: Godar Marak Come back when you actualy know what you are talking about. Atleast i don't whine about my race \|MASS\| EEHope
Weirda	Posted - 2006.06.02 10:03:00 - [69] Originally by: PriceCheckMax 400dps on Omen, how? Care to explain the setup? Astarte can't come close to touching the absolution DPS? omen setup is about as obvious as they come. focused med pulse II, conflagration, 3xdmg mod, assault launcher, drones... forgot about Astarte Absolution is arguably best though. __ Weirda Assault Ship need 4th Bonus and More!
Frools	Posted - 2006.06.02 10:05:00 - [70] Originally by: PriceCheckMax 400dps on Omen, how? Care to explain the setup? heavy pulse II + conflag, rocket launcher, 3 heat sinks, 3 t2 light drones gets you over 400dps at that point you have 1 low slot and no grid to tank in though more grid for omen please! (like 150 or something )
Godar Marak	Posted - 2006.06.02 10:12:00 - [71] Edited by: Godar Marak on 02/06/2006 10:13:13 Originally by: Hop3 That's why i said go fly other ships I do. Im flying a tempest these days and I'm loving it. Does that mean amarr shouldnt get a boost? No. edit : Posted with wrong character ehh?
Lucre	Posted - 2006.06.02 10:49:00 - [72] One does have to wonder why, if Minmatar ship designers are (entirely logically) building ship defences specifically to resist the lasers of their racial enemy, why Amarr ship designers aren't equally building ships specifically to benefit from the weapons which will do most damage to those Minmatar ships? Maybe like an Apoc but with a Tempest's projectile bonuses instead of cap and laser cap? (Though of course presumably the RP answer is that they wouldn't want to demean their ships by building them to fit that sort of junk...)
Lucre	Posted - 2006.06.02 10:54:00 - [73] Originally by: Hop3 Originally by: Godar Marak No need for ammo+no reload time because crappy fall of. Reload bug, been there for ages. Not even a mention of a fix. That's why i said go fly other ships So your argument is that Amarr weapons don't need fixing because people can always go fly other ships? True, but I feel unhelpful...
Aemilus Brutus	Posted - 2006.06.03 01:56:00 - [74] Must keep thread alive
Stive Svenskere	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:00:00 - [75] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter um ammar nned more dmg tipes >? oki just ducktape to apoc some sharp sticks and taran your enemys oki now we have + kin dmg Sprechen sie english?
Kaylana Syi	Posted - 2006.06.03 02:27:00 - [76] NO... kthx EM is such an underated damage type... Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
CrimsonTears	Posted - 2006.06.03 03:56:00 - [77] Edited by: CrimsonTears on 03/06/2006 03:57:24 ok there are only 4 dmg types in eve, so logicly you would think a laser would do thermal dmg and due to to constant stream of energy it would be slightly better hitting sheilds then armor... so thats EM and thermal dmg, how the hell is a laser going to do explosive or kenetic dmg? dont know if this has be said before, but it makes complete sence why lasers dmg the way they do and why they would be better at taking out shields then armor. besides if we are talking about light here all we need to make it slice through armor better would be to focus it more... a crystal making it a vary small tight and hot beam would do it, making it where it had no EM dmg but alot of thermal.

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