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Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
169
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Posted - 2011.11.17 13:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:It's a pretty big buff, but I don't believe that it's made blasters worth using in small-scale combat in a world where AC and Minmatar hulls haven't been changed, or made rails worth using in fleet where Scorch, Tachyons, artillery, the Apoc's range bonus and the 150 km soft cap and 250 km hard cap range limits apply.
Blasterboats are still slower and less agile, and with much less range, than AC hulls. Sniping beyond 150 km is still irrelevant and rails at less than 150 km are still much inferior to other weapons.
The new rail Naga is a model for what rails should be. It has a substantial DPS advantage over the other t3 BCs beyond about 80 km, which is deserved because of its deficiencies in mobiity, sig, scan res and alpha. The tachyon Oracle will have good tracking and great DPS close up; the 1400mm Tornado has mobility, alpha and selectable damage; the Naga has raw DPS at range.
As for blasters, well, AC hulls are a model for what blasterboats should look like. Fast hulls able to get to optimal where they can apply lots of DPS. If you cut AC falloff down to blaster level, then you'd have a good idea of what working blaster hulls would look like.
Yeah, I'm disappointed that the Proteus didn't get a speed or inertia modifier. It certainly needs it. You being a Proteus pilot might sympathize. 
We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX! |
Benilopax
The Ashen Lion Syndicate
34
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Posted - 2011.11.17 14:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
These are not the final changes, more will take place after crucible comes, therefore I will wait and see. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites
Echelon Rising
149
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:04:00 -
[33] - Quote
Bubanni wrote:I think it's great changes to blasters and rails, and their stats look decent now :P so personly I don't think they need to tweak them much
tbh I still think they need more damage (coupled with a range cut to keep things balanced), and the hulls definitely need more mobility.
there's still no reason to use a blaster ship over a pulse or AC ship.
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote]
ain't that right |
OT Smithers
Buccaneer's Den
9
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 14:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mag's wrote:CCP have stated this is not the final, but an on going buff. Time will tell if it's enough, but I say no.
CCP can say whatever they like. Whatever "fix" they released now -- balanced or not -- is pretty much it for the forseeable future. They have a HUGE list of things in desperate need of correction and balancing, and once hybrids are 'finished' they are off the list.
Are these changes enough? I have no clue. Whether they are or not, players will make do just as they have up to this point. The test is in the game, and the proof is useage. We can see what works well and what does not simply by observing what the players use in game.
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Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic
Tragedy.
184
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Posted - 2011.11.17 14:26:00 -
[35] - Quote
Honestly I almost feel stupid for spending all this time training up Lasers...I will not regret that however. I refuse...especially when I was full Caldari, max shields, with good missile and hybrid skills for the longest time. Then I was convinced training up armor to max and working on lasers was the way to go. No...I will not regret that...****...I can pretty much do anything now...lol
Support our boobies!-áLINKY! |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness
The Midget Mafia
335
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:44:00 -
[36] - Quote
welp
if they can keep up with tweeking it to a finished state, you have to start somewhere, and this looks about as good a starting point as any.
its never going to be right on the first pass, and only full out live play will reveal all the flaws.
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Alara IonStorm
RvB - BLUE Republic
437
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 15:48:00 -
[37] - Quote
I was really hoping they would Balance Hybrids and Rails. But instead they shortcut the testing for an Early release.
What I would not give to get this expansion mid January full of useful Hybrid Changes, Assault Frig Bonuses, Faction Warfare Updates and all the other meat that made up what this expansion was supposed to be.
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baltec1
196
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dr Karsun wrote:Keeping the cap booster just for anti-neuting purposes seems silly especially in big fleets with guardians. In small gangs it'll still be in use but just as a precaution against neut fleets.
Yea I might drop the cap booster on my mega and hype. It takes up a valuble mid which I could be using for either more tank, a point or a sebo so I can lock things before the canes destroy it |
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
42
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Dissatisfied.
They could have increased the damage output by 100% and it still doesn't correct the mistake of the speed nerf, which was a mistake based on the agility & hull upgrade buff, which was only implemented because Destiny couldn't handle the Math required (DEV CITATION WELCOMED).
So long as you can stop a blaster ship getting inside its optimal by switching off its MWD - what's the point?
IF this was removed and webs slowed down ships 90% as they were designed to do, then I'd be happy - hell, if this was done, you could even reduce the blaster damage by 25% and I'd still be happy.
AK
GÇ£You go into combat, and itGÇÖs NOT going to be WagnerGǪindustrial techno or really hard drum and bassGÇ¥
Reynir Hardarson, founding member of CCP Games, 2002. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
39
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
I think blaster ships will become a new favorite in station games (where you tend to be less than 5km from your target and neither one moves much). |
Havegun Willtravel
Mobile Alcohol Processing Units
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 16:51:00 -
[41] - Quote
I'll give it a +1.
Tallest already admitted that this isn't a solution to the issue but a starting point.
The ships themselves are where the hard work needs to be done. Not enough PG or CPU for most Gal hulls, and less cap than comparable Amar ships holds them back
Almost every Amar ship has more lows than Gallente. Combine that will resist and HP bonus's and it's no wonder they're the favored race of armor tankers by far. Shift the resist bonus to Gal so they don't need to fly plated and they'll still have speed and the problems solved.
Looking forward to seeing if my Tristan can finally put up a decent showing vs a riffter or punisher. I think it's gonna take more than this to have an enyo v wolf- jag- vengeance fight be anything other than predictable but it's a good start. I'll take what i can get.
The less frequently asked question is how does this effect the Caldari gun boats ? Moa, ferox, rokh, were never super popular due to cross training but they were never bad ships overall. The lower pg requirements for shield extenders vs plates with no loss of speed gave then decent tank with good dps. How much better they get from these improvements will be interesting to watch. |
Opertone
Signal 7
10
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Posted - 2011.11.17 17:11:00 -
[42] - Quote
They buffed Gallente, but they didn't give Caldari any chance
Caldari still have optimal instead of damage, which sucks... Boost our hybrid platfroms. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
581
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
+1
At least they didn't go completely out of whack like they did with projectiles. Now all we need is a buff to lasers and projectiles may be in balance again, provided the changes to hail get axed as they make projectiles better at being blasters than blasters themselves.
morons- sting like a butterfly and-ápost like a bee. |
Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
118
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 17:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:That's by far the largest boost I've ever seen applied since I started playing in 2006.
Agreed
Malcanis wrote:I think it's enough for now.
Disagree.
Malcanis wrote:If CCP Tallest is genuinely committed to iterating on the issue, then what we're looking at is a pretty good starting point to go live with.
Unlikely to happen, but I hope you're right. |
Drifterin Thedark
13
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:08:00 -
[45] - Quote
NO!
AND BECAUSE YOU ASKED OUR DEMANDS WILL NOW BE EVEN MORE RIDICULOUS!!!
MWAHAHA |
Jack bubu
GK inc.
Pandemic Legion
76
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Posted - 2011.11.17 18:28:00 -
[46] - Quote
Opertone wrote:They buffed Gallente, but they didn't give Caldari any chance
Caldari still have optimal instead of damage, which sucks... Boost our hybrid platfroms.
Rails got a 10%dmg and a tracking boost together with the reload time reduce, cap reduce and fitting reduce.
m8 the r0kh 0wnz now, you will see soon enough on PL battlerecords |
InVictus Kell
The Scope
Gallente Federation
62
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Posted - 2011.11.17 18:42:00 -
[47] - Quote
I think rails got a good buff, and blasters got a good start. The reload time is the biggest improvement to me, to be able to sustain dps more efficiently is always a good thing.
i think they will very quickly reach a point of diminishing returns and hopefully will focus on the core of the problem, the Gallente hulls themselves that are too slow and not very agile for being blaster boats. |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
305
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 18:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
non judgement wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:+1
Are these changes making it into Crucible? I read something the other day that stated the hybrid changes were not going to be part of the Crucible update. It could have just been someone trolling. I was not able to find any post that stated either way with surety. They are making it into the expansion. They are the changes that are on sisi now, I believe.
Phew. Thanks. I was looking forward most to Crucible for the hybrid changes. Glad they are part of the Nov 29 update.
Today I lost my common sense,
It slipped away between Amamake and Rens,
I think it happened in highsec,
Using a Brutix to gank a Providence.
-- Flunk |
Ion Fury
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.11.17 20:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
I appreciate the effort CCP is putting into this issue. The fitting and ammo reload buffs defiantly help to differentiate hybrids from their laser/projectile counterparts. However I still don't feel it addresses what I see as the core issue.
Railguns are unable to make use of their extreme (150km+) ranges. With the buffs to probing speed and the minimum warp distance of 150km, a competent enemy can cover the distance very easily. I think that the buff to reload times, tracking speed and damage will allow railboats to deal better with this problem, but I think it's just a bandaid to the larger issue.
Blasters (medium and larger) are still incompatible with slow armor tanked ships. In order to bring their full DPS to bear, a blaster boat must close well within web and scramble range where other "short range" (pulse/autocannon) weapons can do 70-90% of the damage from from 200-600% the range and still have the possibility of escape. Combined with the incompatibility between slow and unwieldy armor tanked ships (Gallente) and such short ranged weapons and I see a problem that can't be fixed with stat buffs alone. |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
175
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:20:00 -
[50] - Quote
anyone who knows anything about Gallente ships, this game, or pvp in general will say that these changes barely even scratch the surface. sure, better than nothing. but anyone saying that these changes are "great" or "enough" doesnt know wtf theyre talking about.
there is still no reason to get into a hybrid boat over a Drake, AC, or pulse boat. it pisses me off that we have to wait for months of metrics to "prove" this. and Tallest simply withdrew from this discussion, which definitely doesnt help. i hope he agrees that the rest will come from individual ship buffs. |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
175
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 20:22:00 -
[51] - Quote
Ion Fury wrote:
Railguns are unable to make use of their extreme (150km+) ranges. With the buffs to probing speed and the minimum warp distance of 150km, a competent enemy can cover the distance very easily. I think that the buff to reload times, tracking speed and damage will allow railboats to deal better with this problem, but I think it's just a bandaid to the larger issue.
who the hell cares about extreme ranges? hybrids cant even do damage comparable to pulses, arties or AC's from 30-40km. why dont we work on this little problem first? |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
205
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:Ion Fury wrote:
Railguns are unable to make use of their extreme (150km+) ranges. With the buffs to probing speed and the minimum warp distance of 150km, a competent enemy can cover the distance very easily. I think that the buff to reload times, tracking speed and damage will allow railboats to deal better with this problem, but I think it's just a bandaid to the larger issue.
who the hell cares about extreme ranges? hybrids cant even do damage comparable to pulses, arties or AC's from 30-40km. why dont we work on this little problem first?
Hey look, you haven't tested anything on the test server, yet you post anyway!
They actually do compete, because at the ranges you're looking at the pulse and ac's have to use a longer ranged ammo, while the hybrids still have anti matter loaded.
This basically works out to **** levels of DPS, with really fast reload times (meaning less down time between DPS cycles) at the ranges that pulse and AC's are operating in.
I've spent a minimum of 6 hours a day running tests on hybrid platforms since its hit sisi (haven't gone on yet today) and I've wracked up about 200 kills personally in Blaster and Rail platforms.
The changes are awesome, the Naga is amazing, the Talos is amazing, even the diemos performs well now.
To all the people crying about needing to get into scram range to do optimal DPS, scram range is basically 10km, most blaster platforms can easily do a lot of damage at 10km.
Right now, if you're 10km from a blaster ship on SiSi (cruiser hull or larger) you are in a world of hurt. The over tracking issue is gone, the ships move faster (let me tell you about 1500m/s trimarked 1600 plated ships) and they hit harder.
And if you're worried about ships like the brutix being useless beside the Naga or Talos, ask anybody who's tested one of those what happens when a frigate gets near one.
It dies, alone, to a single frigate, so the BC platforms are still really useful in gangs, as the new BC's are completely defenseless against frigates. |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
175
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
youre completely wrong about the Deimos, and i dont have to justify myself to you, and "prove" that i was testing as well.
the Deimos does a pithy ~300dps with antimatter in a full rack of 200's at about 15-20km, with next to no tank, and a crapload of tracking and damage mods. u have any idea how easily a shield-tanked Cynabal tears up a rail Deimos? u wanna compare it to the pulse Zealot? dont even try noob.
what have you been testing, im just curious? did you actually test any of these ships against their Minnie and Amarr counterparts? against the Drake? the Deimos is ok only in your fantasies. the Talos is the shittiest tier 3 BC, and while the Naga might be "ok", large rails dont even compare to mega pulses (with scorch), arties, and even large AC's at 70km (LAWL). stop spreading misinformation. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
27
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
:popcorn:
They mad! |
Hungry Eyes
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
175
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:39:00 -
[55] - Quote
so f'in mad bro |
baltec1
196
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:48:00 -
[56] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:youre completely wrong about the Deimos, and i dont have to justify myself to you, and "prove" that i was testing as well.
the Deimos does a pithy ~300dps with antimatter in a full rack of 200's at about 15-20km, with next to no tank, and a crapload of tracking and damage mods. u have any idea how easily a shield-tanked Cynabal tears up a rail Deimos? u wanna compare it to the pulse Zealot? dont even try noob.
So fit blasters... |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
206
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 21:53:00 -
[57] - Quote
Hungry Eyes wrote:youre completely wrong about the Deimos, and i dont have to justify myself to you, and "prove" that i was testing as well.
the Deimos does a pithy ~300dps with antimatter in a full rack of 200's at about 15-20km, with next to no tank, and a crapload of tracking and damage mods. u have any idea how easily a shield-tanked Cynabal tears up a rail Deimos? u wanna compare it to the pulse Zealot? dont even try noob.
what have you been testing, im just curious? did you actually test any of these ships against their Minnie and Amarr counterparts? against the Drake? the Deimos is ok only in your fantasies. the Talos is the shittiest tier 3 BC, and while the Naga might be "ok", large rails dont even compare to mega pulses (with scorch), arties, and even large AC's at 70km (LAWL). stop spreading misinformation.
Learn to fit?
Why would i spread misinformation, what purpose would it possibly serve me?
I can fly anything, so with this patch all my hybrid skills and galente ship training are finally worth something.
I tell you what, you tell me when, and we'll start running through set ups on the test server.
I'm offering you a chance to put your money where your mouth is.
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Naga Elohim
Southern Cross Empire
Flying Dangerous
0
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 22:00:00 -
[58] - Quote
Can I haz blaster Rokh now?
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Mariner6
EVE University
Ivy League
34
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 22:09:00 -
[59] - Quote
-1
Improvement yes, but not enough. Though perhaps not specifically to the hybrids themselves. Many Gallente ships still have a bonus that is completely worthless for a close in brawler....that horrible armor repair bonus. Include the Thorax's mwd cap bonus to that. In my opinion buffer is better for armor in PVP particularly if you must fight in close. Yes, I know it has its applications, mostly in solo or very small gangs, but buffer is just more flexible and neuting doesn't lead to instant death with a buffer fit. Buffer is also the way to go if being supported by logi, and god knows you need it since you don't see the effect till the end of the cycle.
So Gallente hulls need some work, first and foremost--- get rid of that bonus and do something meaningful to it. Something to help Gallente ships control range in a fight. Such as a bonus to SCRAM range or WEB range. Or whatever works. They don't need to be crazy fast, I got it. Tactics must be used to overcome the speed/kiting problem (ie warp ins, punting etc) The agility increase is appreciated so that when you get that warp in you can hopefully accelerate enough to keep in range until target lock is achieved and scram/web applied. Agility increase will hep also when switching direction in fleet fights as primaries change and you have to move into range. All the talk of changes to rigs, sprinting etc etc just in the end would make other platforms that much better as they would use those mods. Just make the second bonus useful for controlling range.
But yes its a start. The proof will be in how many Gallente ships are flown after the initial surge that comes from checking them out. But as it stands the stats prove that with few exceptions Gallente ships are hardly flown. There is just no reason to when other ships so much much better, in many ways because the bonuses they get actually complement their purpose. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
207
|
Posted - 2011.11.17 22:23:00 -
[60] - Quote
I guess he didn't want to prove his points. |
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