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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
390
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 23:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Donima wrote:So I invite you again to come up with another legitimate example of when any people started attacking large numbers of random groups of people for absolutely no reason.
Why are you presuming that highsec wars don't have reasons? There's no thing in the world that a person does that doesn't have a reason behind it. Like I said before, just because you don't know what it is, or you don't think the reason is legitimate it does not cause that reason to not exist. Real wars happen because the conflict satisfies some kind of need in one or both parties. The need isn't necessarily a material one, it can be ideological or religious in nature, they can happen in reaction to perceived threats that don't exist or to get revenge for something. The same is true in EVE. The argument that people declare war on highsec PVE corps at random and for no reason is wrong, there's always a reason. I might add that in RL, death is kind of, you know, permanent.
So comparing reasons for pixel explosions to reasons to actually put your life at risk doesn't make much sense, does it? |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1616
|
Posted - 2014.05.27 23:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Particularly so when you take into account that the only real reason anyone does anything in the game is because it provides entertainment either for the individual or their group. |

Tengu Grib
Maniacal Laughter Ltd. CODE.
117
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 00:11:00 -
[33] - Quote
Agreed. I spent a few hours last weekend chasing after guys who had declared war on us, I didn't manage to actually catch any, and had to avoid the Vendetta guys in the area as I was by myself, but it kept me entertained. Different strokes for different folks. But never assume that a war is 'random and meaningless.' It might be random, but it'll never be meaningless.
Tengu Grib > I agree. The distinct lack of quality spaceships makes RL the worst space sim ever. SolidX > i'm an alt IRL Guilty conscience? Buy a mining permit today. www.minerbumping.com |

Tengu Grib
Maniacal Laughter Ltd. CODE.
118
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 00:17:00 -
[34] - Quote
Donima wrote:
2 points.
1.) if fair is not an integral part of the game, then why do they do so much work on ship balancing? Seems they would just let one races ships stay OP if they didn't care about fairness.
Ship balancing is important to make sure that pilots are provided with options when choosing which ship they want to fly into combat. Without balance everyone would be flying the same ships.
Fairness assumes that all ships would have an equal chance of victory at all times, which would be awful. A mining barge should always lose to a combat ship no matter what. That's not a fair fight and never will be. With the exception of the procurers and skiffs obviously as they are designed to sacrifice yield and ore hold in exchange for combat ability.
If all things were 'fair' in eve than my stealth bomber should be just as capable against a battleship as it is against another frigate. On the other hand balanced ships means that my caldari stealth bomber is an equally valid ship choice to your gallente or amarr stealth bomber (just an example).
I hope this illustrates why I do not think you can legitimately equate fairness and balance. They are two separate things and that is as it should be. Tengu Grib > I agree. The distinct lack of quality spaceships makes RL the worst space sim ever. SolidX > i'm an alt IRL Guilty conscience? Buy a mining permit today. www.minerbumping.com |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1622
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 01:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
It should be noted that I declare a great number of wars and the reasons for them are varied, though often they are triggered by some event that to most people wouldn't seem a suitable justification for it. |

Marsan
226
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 02:47:00 -
[36] - Quote
The basic issue with wars is that it sucks for virtual everyone. I've been in a number of wars and never enjoyed any of them. It's a lot of running around, docking up, station games, gate games, 3rd party logi. It's actually worse than Nulll Sec warfare. There are 3 main ways wars play out:
1) The target evades the war dec in some fashion. Switches corps, goes to LS/WH, or stays docked up. Some people elect to stay in NPC corps.
2) The target corp organizes and attempts to fight. Generally leading to the target corp getting swarmed or the war decer docking. Rarely does this result in interesting pvp.
3) The target corp is filled with newbies who get ganked and pad the killboard of the war decer. In the end 1 or 2 happens. For some reason I can't understand this is fun enough for some people* to do it over and over.
What the war dec system needs is risk and gain for both sides plus a reason for both side to stage decent fight.
* Sure newbie/carebear tears are amusing once or twice, but past that it gets very boring. Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community. |

Donima
HappyPantz Inc Slopy-Drop
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 04:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Donima wrote:So I invite you again to come up with another legitimate example of when any people started attacking large numbers of random groups of people for absolutely no reason.
Why are you presuming that highsec wars don't have reasons? There's no thing in the world that a person does that doesn't have a reason behind it. Like I said before, just because you don't know what it is, or you don't think the reason is legitimate it does not cause that reason to not exist. Real wars happen because the conflict satisfies some kind of need in one or both parties. The need isn't necessarily a material one, it can be ideological or religious in nature, they can happen in reaction to perceived threats that don't exist or to get revenge for something. The same is true in EVE. The argument that people declare war on highsec PVE corps at random and for no reason is wrong, there's always a reason.
First off let me agree completely with Marsan.
Secondly I'm not saying that HS war should not exist. And I'm not saying that all Hi-Sec wars have no meaning. Some most definitely do. What I am saying is that there are a lot of alliances that just fly around hi-sec looking for people that are running missions a lot or mining. They are never given a reason or threat from these people, yet they war dec them just so they can get some easy blood. To that I say grow some balls and find people that want to actually fight back. It's much more fun anyway.
It's also not that I don't like fighting. I definitely like forming fleets and watching aggressors play station games cause they weren't expecting a struggle. But I also can take a step back and see that this system is still broken and needs some sort of reward system, or better put. A system for promoting a purpose or objectives to winning a war, instead of just paying off Concorde |

Tengu Grib
Maniacal Laughter Ltd. CODE.
118
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 05:00:00 -
[38] - Quote
I cannot disagree that high sec wars could and should be given more substance and meaning. I think that this would come from giving the corporations involved on both sides positive reinforce my for engaging in combat, even if that means choosing to whelp a bunch of thrashers into your enemy for a few hours and eventually taking out one of their shinny battle ships. My disagreement though is that I do not believe the war dec mechanic is the source of the problem. I believe the necessary change would come instead from making a reward system for engaging in PVP during a non-mutual war, and rewards for both sides, but favoring the defenders as the attackers likely don't need much additional incentive to fight. To me though these changes would stem from a revamp of the corporation structure, benefits and... Everything. The corporation system is currently really bad in a lot of ways.
Griefers corps like the one you describe, going after miners and missioners with a history of mining and running missions during wars will always exist in some form or another. I think of them as tutors for uninformed high sec dwellers. You likely think of them as bullies, and you aren't really wrong, I just think they serve a purpose. Tengu Grib > I agree. The distinct lack of quality spaceships makes RL the worst space sim ever. SolidX > i'm an alt IRL Guilty conscience? Buy a mining permit today. www.minerbumping.com |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
396
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 09:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
While moar conflict drivers are generally a good thing, it has been correctly stated several times that there's no point in trying to force people to pvp.
If you enjoy pewpew, get out of highsec! Protip: in low/null/wh space, you don't need wardecs to shoot at people! You don't even need to join a corp, if you don't want to. Plus, it's free! 
Seriously, it all boils down to the metagame. People that do not wish or do not enjoy putting their spaceships at risk will always try to avoid combat no matter what. I personally support the game giving them plenty of tools for that, as long as they also need to put some research and effort into it.
The smart/lucky ones will succeed in avoiding combat, the silly/unlucky ones sometimes won't (and some of them will pointlessly whine about it). |

SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
751
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 16:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
Donima wrote:
2 points.
1.) if fair is not an integral part of the game, then why do they do so much work on ship balancing? Seems they would just let one races ships stay OP if they didn't care about fairness.
I'm sure you thought that was a pretty cutting point, but really you're just playing semantics with a concept that has a conveniently loose definition that varies wildly by context.
The game is fair on a macro scale in most regards: We're playing by the same overarching rules that govern the game. By logging in and playing the game, you're agreeing to be bound by those rules, and agreeing that other players are bound by the same set of rules, and may do or not do as those rules permit.
On a micro scale, however, the game isn't overly concerned with fairness, and this is a part of those aforementioned overarching rules that govern the game, none of which dictate that this is a game of internet spaceship duels where grievances are settled via Rifters at 30 paces. It's not Bob's problem if Alice wants to sit in high sec and never fight. That's Alice's problem, and while Alice is free to pursue that lifestyle, she's not free to dictate that other players must accommodate her in that pursuit. Those are the rules she agreed to when she logged in. That's "fair". "Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |

X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
2239
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 16:52:00 -
[41] - Quote
lol war decs. I think I've been in one war dec a long time ago where the dec actually mattered. Most of the time both sides ignore the war dec for a week until it's over.
|

Donima
HappyPantz Inc Slopy-Drop
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
SurrenderMonkey wrote:Donima wrote:
2 points.
1.) if fair is not an integral part of the game, then why do they do so much work on ship balancing? Seems they would just let one races ships stay OP if they didn't care about fairness.
I'm sure you thought that was a pretty cutting point, but really you're just playing semantics with a concept that has a conveniently loose definition that varies wildly by context. The game is fair on a macro scale in most regards: We're playing by the same overarching rules that govern the game. By logging in and playing the game, you're agreeing to be bound by those rules, and agreeing that other players are bound by the same set of rules, and may do or not do as those rules permit. On a micro scale, however, the game isn't overly concerned with fairness, and this is a part of those aforementioned overarching rules that govern the game, none of which dictate that this is a game of internet spaceship duels where grievances are settled via Rifters at 30 paces. It's not Bob's problem if Alice wants to sit in high sec and never fight. That's Alice's problem, and while Alice is free to pursue that lifestyle, she's not free to dictate that other players must accommodate her in that pursuit. Those are the rules she agreed to when she logged in. That's "fair".
That's a fair point. But I fear you are only looking at this from one perspective. If it shouldn't be Bob's problem if Alice wants to never fight and Alice shouldn't be able to dictate that to other players... Then why is it currently Alice's problem if Bob wants to sit in high sec and create havoc for as many easy targets as possible. Furthermore, why is Bob allowed to dictate his wants on others and Alice is not? |

Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate
380
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:46:00 -
[43] - Quote
Because the game mechanics allow it. Once you undock you are agreeing to PvP. Whether that PvP is mutual or not. If you do not like it, I suggest you find another game.
The only place you are safe from wardecs is in a NPC corp. |

Tengu Grib
Maniacal Laughter Ltd. CODE.
121
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 21:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
Because at it's core Eve is about PVP, it's not a single player space mining simulator. Giving people a mechanic to avoid PVP for whatever reason, no matter how well meaning will always result in horrendous abuse. Let's say I gank a mining corp to bear extinction, and they decide to war dec me to get revenge. We'll guess what, I don't want to be under a wardec, I want to gank. Why should they be allowed to dictate how I play? So I use the mechanic you are suggesting and avoid the war. You will not be able to make a mechanic along the lines of what you are describing without a situation like this happening. Tengu Grib > I agree. The distinct lack of quality spaceships makes RL the worst space sim ever. SolidX > i'm an alt IRL Guilty conscience? Buy a mining permit today. www.minerbumping.com |

SurrenderMonkey
Space Llama Industries
761
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 22:05:00 -
[45] - Quote
Donima wrote:SurrenderMonkey wrote:Donima wrote:
2 points.
1.) if fair is not an integral part of the game, then why do they do so much work on ship balancing? Seems they would just let one races ships stay OP if they didn't care about fairness.
I'm sure you thought that was a pretty cutting point, but really you're just playing semantics with a concept that has a conveniently loose definition that varies wildly by context. The game is fair on a macro scale in most regards: We're playing by the same overarching rules that govern the game. By logging in and playing the game, you're agreeing to be bound by those rules, and agreeing that other players are bound by the same set of rules, and may do or not do as those rules permit. On a micro scale, however, the game isn't overly concerned with fairness, and this is a part of those aforementioned overarching rules that govern the game, none of which dictate that this is a game of internet spaceship duels where grievances are settled via Rifters at 30 paces. It's not Bob's problem if Alice wants to sit in high sec and never fight. That's Alice's problem, and while Alice is free to pursue that lifestyle, she's not free to dictate that other players must accommodate her in that pursuit. Those are the rules she agreed to when she logged in. That's "fair". That's a fair point. But I fear you are only looking at this from one perspective. If it shouldn't be Bob's problem if Alice wants to never fight and Alice shouldn't be able to dictate that to other players... Then why is it currently Alice's problem if Bob wants to sit in high sec and create havoc for as many easy targets as possible. Furthermore, why is Bob allowed to dictate his wants on others and Alice is not?
Because in Eve, the freedom to interact trumps the freedom to avoid interaction. "Help, I'm bored with missions!"
http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
1632
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 22:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
It would be pretty strange and entirely contrary to the basic concept of a MMO game if being able to avoid interaction with other players was considered more important than being able to interact with other players. |

Abla Tive
59
|
Posted - 2014.05.28 23:47:00 -
[47] - Quote
My carebear alliance was recently decced.
Corp mining events were cancelled and the most common reaction to the dec was that members stopped logging in.
When the war was over, many but not all of our members started logging in again.
Yes, there are many different ways to respond to a war dec, but the stop playing response is quite strong in many players.
I am sure to be informed that those players who stopped playing were not "right" for EVE anyway and therefore no loss to the game.
|

Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
1720
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 12:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Donima wrote:
2 points.
1.) if fair is not an integral part of the game, then why do they do so much work on ship balancing? Seems they would just let one races ships stay OP if they didn't care about fairness.
2.) This has gone beyond merc coprs. There's corps out there with 100+ war decs. I guarantee you that they are not "guns for hire" in most of them. Since their targets tend to be smaller insignificant, easy target corps that a larger alliance with money to hire mercs could easily attack on their own. Most actual merc corps get hired to take out much bigger targets.
Ship balance isn't about fairness either. It's about diversity.
There are many devblogs that outline the basis for making changes, mostly associated with the statistics that CCP collect from in game activities. The balances are about providing options, not about ensuring fairness.
Mercs are much more than guns for hire.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
. -á<- Argue this, not this ->-á( -í-¦ -£-û -í-¦) |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
409
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 13:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
Abla Tive wrote:My carebear alliance was recently decced.
Corp mining events were cancelled and the most common reaction to the dec was that members stopped logging in.
When the war was over, many but not all of our members started logging in again.
Yes, there are many different ways to respond to a war dec, but the stop playing response is quite strong in many players.
I am sure to be informed that those players who stopped playing were not "right" for EVE anyway and therefore no loss to the game.
Based on your brief post, your CEO is probably incompetent.
If mining is one of -or the- main activity of your corp, he should've simply asked all miners to temporarily drop corp and just go right ahead with your mining ops.
It's maybe an inelegant solution but much better than not playing or -worse- permanently losing corp members. |

Abla Tive
60
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 18:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote: If mining is one of -or the- main activity of your corp, he should've simply asked all miners to temporarily drop corp and just go right ahead with your mining ops.
It's maybe an inelegant solution but much better than not playing or -worse- permanently losing corp members (assuming, as you seem to imply, that they were excellent EVE players).
Actually, for many casuals, not playing for a while is much less of a hassle than losing corp chat, setting up an alternate chat channel and trying to herd a bunch of cats into this alternate mechanism. Especially for older casuals who have corporate industrial jobs/etc in the flow. These older casuals would be the ones providing boosts and hauling with orca's etc.
We don't *just* do mining. |

Marsan
228
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 19:20:00 -
[51] - Quote
Abla Tive wrote:My carebear alliance was recently decced.
Corp mining events were cancelled and the most common reaction to the dec was that members stopped logging in.
When the war was over, many but not all of our members started logging in again.
Yes, there are many different ways to respond to a war dec, but the stop playing response is quite strong in many players.
I am sure to be informed that those players who stopped playing were not "right" for EVE anyway and therefore no loss to the game.
Honestly if you want to continue mining during a war dec it's very easy.
1) Find a mining agent of L1/2.
2) Buy some ventures
3) Drop corp* and travel to the system with the mining agent
4) Rejoin corp, and do the agent's missions while watching local.
5) If a war target enter the system align, and watch dscan for probes.
6) If probes appear warp to station.
7) Repeat until you can use a level 3 agent
8) Drop corp* and go to the level 3 and do 4-6
9) Repeat until you can use a level 4 agent
10) Drop corp* and go to the level 4 and do 4-6
This will drive the aggressor nuts. Sure they can probe you down, but catching a venture in a mining mission, or on station undock/dock is very hard. Even if they can catch you the kill not worth much. You can also switch to a tankier/faster T1 miner for the level 3/4 missions as you'll recoup the cost in a few missions. You will lose a few ships figuring out how to run, and traveling between systems, but honestly the worst thing they can do is mine your mission rocks. Sure if they blow up your ship with a hold full of ore you'll have to ditch the mission, but generally that's not a big deal.
*Alternately install cloaks, and warp stabs in the ventures. This will be enough for travel outside a trade hub or the udema pipe. If you want larger mining barges you can have one guy drop corp, and haul the mining barges into system. People will say you are cowards for dropping corp for travel, but a look at the corp history of most war deccers will reveal they drop/switch corp constantly the time, and those that don't use neutral alts a lot.
Another good way to avoid warp decs and mine is to look on the map for an isolated LS system with little/no traffic/kills/pilots and a HS gate. Mine in a belt in your ventures that isn't the top or bottom gate. If someone comes in system warp to station. (It will be just like mining in NS.)
This is why wardecs are pointless there is no reason for the defender to fight, and there is no better way to fight back than to bore or frustrate you enemy into dropping the war dec. Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community. |

Tengu Grib
Maniacal Laughter Ltd. CODE.
123
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 19:38:00 -
[52] - Quote
Marsan wrote:
3) Drop corp* and travel to the system with the mining agent
4) Rejoin corp, and do the agent's missions while watching local.
If you drop corp while a war is active you cannot rejoin for 7 days or till that war is over, whichever comes first. So that part of your plan does not work. That being said, you can hop in a shuttle to get to your destination. Tengu Grib > I agree. The distinct lack of quality spaceships makes RL the worst space sim ever. SolidX > i'm an alt IRL Guilty conscience? Buy a mining permit today. www.minerbumping.com |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
410
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 21:31:00 -
[53] - Quote
Abla Tive wrote:Actually, for many casuals, not playing for a while is much less of a hassle than losing corp chat, setting up an alternate chat channel If 2 seconds of effort is enough to make them not log in, are you sure they actually like the game? |

Donima
HappyPantz Inc Slopy-Drop
8
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 21:57:00 -
[54] - Quote
Tengu Grib wrote:Because at it's core Eve is about PVP, it's not a single player space mining simulator. Giving people a mechanic to avoid PVP for whatever reason, no matter how well meaning will always result in horrendous abuse. Let's say I gank a mining corp to bear extinction, and they decide to war dec me to get revenge. We'll guess what, I don't want to be under a wardec, I want to gank. Why should they be allowed to dictate how I play? So I use the mechanic you are suggesting and avoid the war. You will not be able to make a mechanic along the lines of what you are describing without a situation like this happening.
I agree, that plan is not entirely a good idea. It was really meant to stem conversation or better ideas, basically a starting point. As far as horrendous abuse goes... that is already being done with the current war dec system. People abuse it far too greatly. IMHO this is a more important thing to fix than creating a way to become immune to war. However some might argue that with the current war system the way it is, some alliances with enough disposable income are using it's cheapness as a way to become immune to concorde. This is really why this mechanic needs some reworking. |

ElCholo
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
104
|
Posted - 2014.05.29 22:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
/rambling on
If you don't want war, join an NPC corp. Eve is a competitive MMO. As soon as you log in you are involved in PvP. Regardless if it's market PvP and constantly having to adjust your prices against another seller of whatever product you are selling, blowing up space pixels, "fighting" other miners for the juiciest ore in a mining belt, or beating the next person to "x" exploration site.
There are ways to get around virtually any aspect of eve. Get war dec'd? Fight back. Higher mercs to fight for you. Join an NPC corp and chat with your friends on TS.
Forcing others to play your way just because it inconveniences you is ridiculous and childish. When they war dec you, it's not forcing you to play there way since you have tons of options to deal with said war dec. Yet, for some reason, you only ever see the carebears bitching to have things changed. High sec wars / espionage / "griefing" have been nerfed for so many years, those folks have learned not to *****, but to adapt and continue having fun. Maybe you should do the same?
/rambling off |

Kaea Astridsson
Yggdrasil Woodchoppers Noir. Mercenary Group
55
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 12:04:00 -
[56] - Quote
This discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere, most die-hard anti war-deccers just won't become converted by those of us who think war-decs are legit. It totally sucks that you feel you need to quit the game because another group of players started shooting you. And sure the War-dec system isn't brilliant in it's current state.
But there are oh so many things that can be done to ease the short period of a war. A lot of fine points in how to do this have been brought up. People manage to live out in Null and Low-sec just fine. So surely there must be something you can do to reduce the number of times you die horribly. If you decide and fight and notice the other party brought neutral logi to field? Do you know how many that would be happy to go out and shoot down a suspect T2 logi.
Did you know that the slight alteration to your Battleship - fitting heavy neuts, will make it so much more harder to keep you tackled. Tell your CEO to get everyone into mission running Armageddons during the dec because ain't no way a lonesome inty can hold that one down long enough for fleet to come spank you.
The CEO who tells his corpies to just stay docked and logged off for the week has done you more harm than the war-deccers could. Make friends in your neighbourhood - friends can scout for you and give a shout out if they spot a WT x Jumps out. Get an intel network sorted. Spot a WT in your system? Watchlist that bloke - you see him log before leaving local, it's most likely gonna be a log of trap.
Need minerals to continue your productions, run smaller mining fleets in ventures or buy it from other indy corps in your area.
Sorry for rant post. |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
413
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 12:15:00 -
[57] - Quote
Kaea Astridsson wrote:Heaps of good advice Wot? Mercs going out of their way to help carebears to carry on their activites during a wardec?
What happened to 'EVE players are all trolls and griefers'?
/sarcasm  |

Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
221
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 13:46:00 -
[58] - Quote
The only reason anyone does hisec mining at all is because it's simple, easy, and generally doesn't require you to pay much attention as long as you're not flying obvious gank-bait. Having to take active measures to avoid getting murdered ruins the ISK:Effort ratio and I can't really think of a worse way to make money if you're going to be actively babysitting your ship.
Hisec certainly shouldn't be perfectly safe, but it should be generally low-risk for people who aren't taking unnecessary and foolish risks. |

Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders Repeat 0ffenders
413
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 14:10:00 -
[59] - Quote
Voyager Arran wrote:The only reason anyone does hisec mining at all is because it's simple, easy, and generally doesn't require you to pay much attention as long as you're not flying obvious gank-bait. Having to take active measures to avoid getting murdered ruins the ISK:Effort ratio and I can't really think of a worse way to make money if you're going to be actively babysitting your ship. This is actually an excellent point. So let's try to consider the miner's point of view, for a moment.
Say he's a casual gamer, knows only the bare minimum about EVE mechanics, would never consider PVP-ing and often plays AFK.
Say he's not stupid nor whiny. He knows he can be suicide-ganked, so he tanks his ship well. If determined gankers blow him up anyway, he posts 'gf' in local and reships without shedding a single tear.
Is he the best EVE player? Hell, no. But here's the important part:
Do EVE highsec mechanics allow him to mine all he wants, even AFK, with just a very low probability of being ganked? YES!
Now his corp gets wardecced. After 24 hours, what was arguably the easiest activity in EVE (highsec mining in a properly tanked ship) suddenly becomes one of the hardest! Not impossible, sure (also depending on the deccers' determination), but pretty damn hard.
I'm all for non-consensual wardecs, but I admit a game where a specific activity (mining) is trivially easy and effortless 99% of the time, then suddenly becomes 'hardcore' because some unknown dude wardecced you, can be slightly confusing at least to casual players.  |

Voyager Arran
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
222
|
Posted - 2014.05.30 14:56:00 -
[60] - Quote
Don't forget that hisec is perpetually full of random neutrals, so even if he's paying attention to local he can still get scouted and even suicide tackled by a disposable frigate on a neutral alt without having any means of seeing it coming or knowing the enemy has found him. |
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