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Insurance.. is it worth it? Calculation inside

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Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.07 19:55:00 - [1] Looking at the various insurance-options for my Prophecy I felt the need to do some calculations.. Imho only the basic insurance is really worth it.. Comments?
KillmAll187	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:01:00 - [2] For your calculations to really matter, you need to include the difference that youd have to make up if you were buying another prophecy at the same price. Good try tho.
Jesabellita	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:03:00 - [3] Originally by: Knoppaz Looking at the various insurance-options for my Prophecy I felt the need to do some calculations.. Imho only the basic insurance is really worth it.. Comments? Alright I'll bite....say your getting the ship at cost for 20.5 mil or there abouts. Basic insurance total loss = 10 Mil ( 9 mil over insurance payout + insurance) Premium insurance total loss about 2.5 mil isk (5 mil surplus from payout - insurance) So how is it that you figure basic is the only one worth it?
Kel Shek	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:03:00 - [4] sooooo, 6 mill free isn't worthwhile. right. might suggest add the amount you get if you buy NO insurance, to the chart? methinks that might be more interesting. ~~~~~ To see a World in a Grain of Sand And Heaven in a Wild Flower Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour ~~William Blake
Shandling	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:07:00 - [5] Originally by: Knoppaz Imho only the basic insurance is really worth it.. Comments? Purely percentage-wise... yep only basic is worth it. :P But the final payout (total payout after subtracting payment) is what's important. It's that much less you have to spend on your next ship. If you don't PvP, or don't expect to lose your ship, then maybe basic is good for you. :P
Brisi	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:08:00 - [6] So you're completely neglecting the fact, that insurance is basically free money? You pay some 30m for a Tier 2 BS, and get about 100m payout when it gets detroyed. 70m free Isk that you would NOT have had, had you not had insurance. Example 1: You buy your Prophecy at 25m, and just get basic insurance. Now you got 11.475m FREE Isk when it gets destroyed. Example 2: You buy your Prophecy at 25m, and but platinum insurance. Now you get 17.85m FREE Isk when it gets destroyed. Then come again and tell me what's best. Note: Did you notice the word "FREE"?
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:13:00 - [7] DOH! Noticed my mistake.. platinum cost - basic cost = 6.375.000 basic effective payout + 6.375.000 = platinum effective payout In the end it's both 17.850.000 bangs head against keyboard
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:20:00 - [8] Edited by: Knoppaz on 07/06/2006 20:22:07 Originally by: Brisi So you're completely neglecting the fact, that insurance is basically free money? You pay some 30m for a Tier 2 BS, and get about 100m payout when it gets detroyed. 70m free Isk that you would NOT have had, had you not had insurance. Example 1: You buy your Prophecy at 25m, and just get basic insurance. Now you got 11.475m FREE Isk when it gets destroyed. Example 2: You buy your Prophecy at 25m, and but platinum insurance. Now you get 17.85m FREE Isk when it gets destroyed. Then come again and tell me what's best. Note: Did you notice the word "FREE"? Nope.. the free amount is same on both.. exactly 11.475m cause you paid 6.375m more on platinum Only difference is that on Basic you have to pay those 6.375m after destruction and on Platinum you have to pay it before destruction (if your ship doesn't blow up, you'll lose those 6.375m in which case the basic insurance would have been better).
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:23:00 - [9] Originally by: Knoppaz Comments? Flawed mathematics and fallacies ftw Testy's Eve Blog, Updated 01/06/06 Someone sell me an Amarr Alt!
Aion Amarra	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:33:00 - [10] And people, don't forget that ships ALWAYS are 40% insured, even if you didn't buy any insurance. That means you get 10.200.000 isk even if you don't pay for the insurance at all. As you might notice that for every isk you pay on insurance, you get two additional isk back if the ship gets destroyed, or one free isk, yes, platinum IS worth it. As long as the ship actually does get destroyed. (Hint, you save money if you empty the ship, destroy it and buy a new one like one day before the insurance runs out.) Dude. ________ Capship Overhaul

Starraker	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:41:00 - [11] Originally by: Aion Amarra (Hint, you save money if you empty the ship, destroy it and buy a new one like one day before the insurance runs out.) This only works if: a) You don't self destruct b) You can buy a new ship for less then the insurance money The last part is true for nearly any BS in empire. Yay 2 mill free iskies! -Starraker
Coran Ordus	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:55:00 - [12] The problem is that you're double subtracting the cost. In the 25mil case: you buy a 25 mil ship. Insure platinum. You're now down by 7 mil. When your ship blows up, you actually get the 25 mil, not your 'effective payout' number. Now you subtract the 7 mil that you already paid, to end up with you holding 18mil in your hand. Which, not coincidently, is 7 mil more than you would have had if you just got basic. So basically when you pay X amount in insurance, you are getting 2X when your ship blows up. Which still results in a net gain of X, after you've subtracted the amount you paid so long ago! So to maximize the net gain, you want to invest as much as you can up front. (And hope your ship blows up.)
Coran Ordus	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:56:00 - [13] The problem is that you're double subtracting the cost. In the 25mil case: you buy a 25 mil ship. Insure platinum. You're now down by 7 mil. When your ship blows up, you actually get the 25 mil, not your 'effective payout' number. Now you subtract the 7 mil that you already paid, to end up with you holding 18mil in your hand. Which, not coincidently, is 7 mil more than you would have had if you just got basic. So basically when you pay X amount in insurance, you are getting 2X when your ship blows up. Which still results in a net gain of X, after you've subtracted the amount you paid so long ago! So to maximize the net gain, you want to invest as much as you can up front. (And hope your ship blows up.)
Coran Ordus	Posted - 2006.06.07 20:57:00 - [14] The problem is that you're double subtracting the cost. In the 25mil case: you buy a 25 mil ship. Insure platinum. You're now down by 7 mil. When your ship blows up, you actually get the 25 mil, not your 'effective payout' number. Now you subtract the 7 mil that you already paid, to end up with you holding 18mil in your hand. Which, not coincidently, is 7 mil more than you would have had if you just got basic. So basically when you pay X amount in insurance, you are getting 2X when your ship blows up. Which still results in a net gain of X, after you've subtracted the amount you paid so long ago! So to maximize the net gain, you want to invest as much as you can up front. (And hope your ship blows up.)
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 03:16:00 - [15] Insurance and I have a long history together. People are convinced you need it, yet I'm convinced you don't (all I do is PvP). Take the payout and subtract the premium AND the base payout, and you have the gain. Which is actually a loss mitigation not an actual gain. Between buying the ship and plat insurance, you will never get more than you paid out. Infact, selling the ship is more efficient than buying plat and blowing it up for the insurance money. So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. Click Above
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 04:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Eximius Josari ..So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. Aka invest in WCS?
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 04:49:00 - [17] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Eximius Josari ..So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. Aka invest in WCS? I have never fitted a WCS to any ship I've flown, even the ones not intended for combat. Click Above
Loki Caldaris	Posted - 2006.06.08 05:33:00 - [18] Originally by: Eximius Josari Insurance and I have a long history together. People are convinced you need it, yet I'm convinced you don't (all I do is PvP). Take the payout and subtract the premium AND the base payout, and you have the gain. Which is actually a loss mitigation not an actual gain. Between buying the ship and plat insurance, you will never get more than you paid out. Infact, selling the ship is more efficient than buying plat and blowing it up for the insurance money. So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. This is all assuming you will never lose the ship. If all you do is PvP you will lose ships. In the end, you will lose any war of attrition.
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 05:40:00 - [19] Originally by: Eximius Josari I have never fitted a WCS to any ship I've flown, even the ones not intended for combat. The thing is - if you play halfway regulary and have halfway competent opponents chances are rather high that during 3 months you will find yourself at least once warpjammed in an unwinnable situation. In the end the only thing you can use there to "fit the ship not to die" are WCS. Or, to quote "Fight Club": On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. I find the 3 month insurance period quite sufficient for that time in the EVE universe.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Loki Caldaris Originally by: Eximius Josari Insurance and I have a long history together. People are convinced you need it, yet I'm convinced you don't (all I do is PvP). Take the payout and subtract the premium AND the base payout, and you have the gain. Which is actually a loss mitigation not an actual gain. Between buying the ship and plat insurance, you will never get more than you paid out. Infact, selling the ship is more efficient than buying plat and blowing it up for the insurance money. So in my personal opinion. Insurance is largely pointless, I'd rather spend that on fitting the ship not to die. This is all assuming you will never lose the ship. If all you do is PvP you will lose ships. In the end, you will lose any war of attrition. My ISK income is secure, but the only thing I do in Eve is PvP...and politics. I wont lose a war of attrition much faster by not having plat insurance. I dont always win, but such is life. Click Above

Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Eximius Josari I have never fitted a WCS to any ship I've flown, even the ones not intended for combat. The thing is - if you play halfway regulary and have halfway competent opponents chances are rather high that during 3 months you will find yourself at least once warpjammed in an unwinnable situation. In the end the only thing you can use there to "fit the ship not to die" are WCS. Or, to quote "Fight Club": On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. I find the 3 month insurance period quite sufficient for that time in the EVE universe. I happen to know of at least one person who has PvPed in one ship for longer than a year and only just recently lost it. He fits no WCS and often fought superior numbers. He insured his ship 4 times (which even if the first three monthes were worth it, the second is definately not worth it). He ended up losing it to a gank squad that was prepared for him. Click Above
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:20:00 - [22] Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2006 06:20:57 Originally by: Eximius Josari I happen to know of at least one person who has PvPed in one ship for longer than a year and only just recently lost it. He fits no WCS and often fought superior numbers. He insured his ship 4 times (which even if the first three monthes were worth it, the second is definately not worth it). He ended up losing it to a gank squad that was prepared for him. It really depends what ship. For example, it is considerably easier to avoid getting killed in an interceptor than in a BC or BS. For the latter all you need is to jump to system where your arrival gate is camped by an hostile force. If those have frigate pilots which are not afk you will be scrambled before you can warp out. Thats a "bad luck" situation you cannot really avoid in those ships (and even an interceptor is ****** if he jumps into an interdictor field in 0.0). Someone not loosing a ship for one year is definately a proof of good skill, but only a fool would deny luck had no influence there. Skill only gets you so far in EvE.
Eximius Josari	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 08/06/2006 06:20:57 Originally by: Eximius Josari I happen to know of at least one person who has PvPed in one ship for longer than a year and only just recently lost it. He fits no WCS and often fought superior numbers. He insured his ship 4 times (which even if the first three monthes were worth it, the second is definately not worth it). He ended up losing it to a gank squad that was prepared for him. It really depends what ship. For example, it is considerably easier to avoid getting killed in an interceptor than in a BC or BS. For the latter all you need is to jump to system where your arrival gate is camped by an hostile force. If those have frigate pilots which are not afk you will be scrambled before you can warp out. Thats a "bad luck" situation you cannot really avoid in those ships (and even an interceptor is ****** if he jumps into an interdictor field in 0.0). Someone not loosing a ship for one year is definately a proof of good skill, but only a fool would deny luck had no influence there. Skill only gets you so far in EvE. He only flies a BS usually. And I'm sure luck has something to do with it. But you can't convince me insurance is worth the ISK. Click Above
Aramendel	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:45:00 - [24] Well, mathematically, as long as a ship does not survive for longer than 3 months on average you will have more isk at the end if you insure each new one than if you hadn't. Stuff like your regular income is totally insignificant there, insurance will save you money.
Letifer Deus	Posted - 2006.06.08 06:48:00 - [25] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/06/2006 06:52:36 OK... so, let's say a BS costs 100mil and thus platinum insurance gives 100 mil payout and basic gives 50 mil. I spend 30 mil for platinum insurance, but instead of getting back 40 mil, I get back 100 mil. As the base price is the same, that cancels out, so you are only left with: payout - insurance cost 40 - 0 = 40 100 - 30 = 70 So assuming I lose my BS within 12 weeks, I am getting 30 mil for free. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Thoris Levithar	Posted - 2006.06.08 07:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Eximius Josari But you can't convince me insurance is worth the ISK. A simple example I did before buying my BS. I started with about 80m ISK. Case 1: Uninsured battleship (say tier 1) I spend 60m ISK for the ship, so now my wallet shows 20m ISK left. If three days later the ship gets destroyed, I get the basic (non) insurance paid out (40%, so about 24m ISK), wallet now shows 20m + 24m = 44m ISK. Case 2: Insured battleship I spend 60m ISK for the ship, and 18.5m ISK for platinum insurance, wallet goes down to 1.5m ISK. Again three days later if I loose my ship: wallet now shows 64m ISK (62.5m payout from insurance). Dunno, maybe 20m ISK is nothing to you, but it sure seems worthwhile to me. Obviously in some situations it may be different, but generally I would say insurance is very worthwhile in the dangerous world of EVE. I just don't want to be the insurance company :)
Knoppaz	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/06/2006 06:52:36 OK... so, let's say a BS costs 100mil and thus platinum insurance gives 100 mil payout and basic gives 50 mil. I spend 30 mil for platinum insurance, but instead of getting back 40 mil, I get back 100 mil. As the base price is the same, that cancels out, so you are only left with: payout - insurance cost 40 - 0 = 40 100 - 30 = 70 So assuming I lose my BS within 12 weeks, I am getting 30 mil for free. Nope.. you don't get 30m free cause you already spend those 30m for the platinum insurance
Drakir Everborn	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:41:00 - [28] Knoppaz, it seems that you missed Coran Ordus post, which is quite the feat, since he triple posted... Anyway, here it is again... Please read it over and over until you understand that you are not right. This guy is actually smart. Originally by: Coran Ordus The problem is that you're double subtracting the cost. In the 25mil case: you buy a 25 mil ship. Insure platinum. You're now down by 7 mil. When your ship blows up, you actually get the 25 mil, not your 'effective payout' number. Now you subtract the 7 mil that you already paid, to end up with you holding 18mil in your hand. Which, not coincidently, is 7 mil more than you would have had if you just got basic. So basically when you pay X amount in insurance, you are getting 2X when your ship blows up. Which still results in a net gain of X, after you've subtracted the amount you paid so long ago! So to maximize the net gain, you want to invest as much as you can up front. (And hope your ship blows up.)
Heikki	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:43:00 - [29] Insurance 'efficiency' might differ between the options, but in the end it doesn't matter. For bad analogy, think it as someone trusted giving you options of a) You give him $1, he gives you $10 b) You give him $1000, he gives you $2000 Even thought a) is more 'efficient', it still makes sense to pick the latter. So, with Eve's economically stupid insurance the actually choices are just: 1) not likely to lose ship in the next 3 months -> no insurance 2) likely (>50%) to lose it -> full insurance -Lasse P.S. About the missing headline, forums seems to have a bug of losing the subject line when you use preview after editing your OP
Redsteel	Posted - 2006.06.08 09:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Knoppaz Edited by: Knoppaz on 08/06/2006 09:39:34 Originally by: Letifer Deus Edited by: Letifer Deus on 08/06/2006 06:52:36 OK... so, let's say a BS costs 100mil and thus platinum insurance gives 100 mil payout and basic gives 50 mil. I spend 30 mil for platinum insurance, but instead of getting back 40 mil, I get back 100 mil. As the base price is the same, that cancels out, so you are only left with: payout - insurance cost 40 - 0 = 40 100 - 30 = 70 So assuming I lose my BS within 12 weeks, I am getting 30 mil for free. Nope.. you don't get 30m free cause you already spend those 30m for the platinum insurance (see example with real numbers above. The amount you get "for free" from platinum insurance is exactly the amount you paid more over basic insurance) you really don't get it, do you? ok then.. 40m payment for uninsured ship 100m for platinum insurance. now substract "expenses" and see what's left.. if you still insist you'll just make a fool of yourself.



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